Balanced Brawl Public Preview *GENESIS UPDATE*

[Shell]

I'm not talking about fallspeed, but weight. And I am curious, not making suggestions currently.

Separating the two is difficult right now. People can be made lighter through roundabout means, but not heavier.

 

[jahkzheng]

How many more versions of this do you anticipate, or is this going to be one of those projects that will constantly evolve?

It sounds like you guys are trying to achieve balance in the simplest possible way so as to come to some final result.

I ask this because Brawl+ is constantly evolving.

I understand this is one of those things where you will be tweaking and tinkering with different properties to try and make your game as good as it can be. I just wonder if you want this game to be static so that its users can develop deeper strategies like in vBrawl, or do you want to have a game that evolves with its metagame like B+.

Doing projects like this is intriguing in that you are developing a game to accommodate an evolved vBrawl metagame, yet vBrawl's gameplay is still evolving despite being a static game.

I'm sure you are all aware of this, but I felt I should voice it in acknowledgment to your work.

Good luck with the project. Now time to try it out...



Edit: Sorry for sounding like I was undermining Brawl+. That was never my intention, so I changed what I said.

Also, I do want to say that I still feel this new brawl project seems like it wants to stay as true as possible to vBrawl, whereas Brawl+ aims to make Brawl into a different and hopefully more enjoyable game.

Hope that dispels what I intended to say and sorry again.

 

[daisho]

I think since the changes are so small for most characters (or none for DK... GRRRR) that you won't have to relearn them. Maybe you have to incorporate a new kill move into your game, but even so, most people have to do that anyway when they realize they should be using a different attack more often.

 

[Mr.-0]

I"m confused. Some guy was saying D3 is broken.


Where's the logic in that?

 

[Eldiran]

I fear I don't have time to read the 43 pages here, but I have to say -- amazing job. I'm glad someone else recognizes the value of trying to balance Brawl without changing the mechanics, which is what I've been trying to do with my meager coding skill thus far... but this is a very thorough set. I am leery about certain changes (in particular the massive changes in Ganondorf's playstyle) but I bet it's going to work out well.

So, thanks Balanced Brawl peoples! I am going to use this codeset and try it out thoroughly. I hope it's as awesome as it seems, and please keep up the good work! I'll contribute any data I get on who or what needs changes.

 

[auroreon]

What I think every Yoshi main will agree on is that the increased knockback on the downsmash is a vital buff, it covers one of, if not the, biggest of Yoshis flaws which is the difficulty in killing. Being able to get that kill in with the Dsmash now has proved so far to be an wonderful improvement.
The next buff that I am very happy about is the Eggroll, Egg-braking has allowed me to survive to much higher percentages. And Yoshi is heavier than G&W.
The increased damage on Tilts, dash attack and slight modification to DownB are welcome little tweaks that deffinatly help to slowly work toward a more balanced character.

Now onto what was not-so-good.
I will start with the Fair issue. The problem I, and from the looks of it other Yoshi mains, are having with the changes to his Fair are that it simply is not what we need.
Yoshis Fair is his worst aerial, mostly due to the fact that is extremely difficult to land on good opponants. Whilst initially the idea to add this property of grounding opponants to the Fair seems like a good way to make a bad move more viable, when you are actually playing against skilled opponants you soon realise that it really isn't very useful at all.
You will rarely land Fairs, and Yoshi mains have learnt to mostly avoid using it on-stage for this reason.
When the Fair is actually used its ussually not on-stage but off-stage for the spike, making it so it always spikes would probably be a much better modification.
Now, as you state in the OP, one of the goals of this project is retain the playstyle of a character as much as possible, but by trying to put some emthasis on the Fair you are changing the general playstyle of the character. We simply don't use fair.
I think we all just feel that this modification to the Fair is unessesary and offers no major benefit in comparrison to other changes that Yoshi desperatly needs.

The problem Chaco explained about increased damage to Utilt and Bair are very valid points and I'm sure that will be patched up by you as you say. I am however appreciative of the slight increase in damage on the two moves and I can really see the advantage of that, if you could keep that but fix the problem as descibed by Chaco much like what you have done with Jiggz aerials, I think that would be for the best.

Onto potential changes to Yoshi. I'd just like to make it clear that I am in no way suggesting that all these changes need be added, merely as just a list of things that could potentially be changed to improve Yoshi.
Firstly and most importantly, I know how you feel about Yoshis shield being a distinguishing character feature, but what you need to understand is that as Yoshi mains we have the best understanding of Yoshis flaws. As you have seen, we are mostly in agreement that Yoshis shield properties are a major flaw.
Simply put, I think of the things that Yoshi truly does require to best reach the balance being aimed for is the alteration of Yoshis shield. I would describe it more as a cage than a shield, because Yoshi is incredibly limted in his options on coming out of it.
The lag on dropping the shield means that safetly dropping it without being punsihed is unlikely, and there is even less chance that you will be able to perform anything out the shield drop.
Yoshi also cannot jump out of his shield, and is the only character to have this afflication, thus limiting his options for escape even further.
We are left with shield grab, roll and spotdodge. However, all of these three options are also severely flawed. Firstly, shield grabbing with Yoshi is an extreme rarity thanks to him having the slowest standing grab animation in the game, the slowest shield drop in the game and the fact that when Yoshis shield is hit by an attack it slides away dependant on knockback so ussually the shield slides out of shield-grab range anyway.
Rolling is not a particuarly viable option either, Yoshi has the worst roll in the game and is vunerable for a sizable portion of the roll animation.
Spotdodging is my personal most used method of escaping Yoshis shield, but even that has its problems. When spotdodging out of the shield, Yoshi is vunerable to attack very briefly as he transitions from shield to spot-dodge. And then has vunerability again at the end of the animation.
So as you can see, Yoshis shield causes us a great deal of problems and I for one would very much like to see this issue addressed. I think the most viable and sensible ideas for dealing with this issue are increasing the drop-speed of the shield and/or allowing Yoshi to jump out of his shield.

Moving on from that, the next change I feel should be considered is the buffing of damage dealt from the million-kick (Dair). I don't think the difficulty in landing this aerial is currently accurately reflected in the damage dealt, the decrease from Melee I don't feel was justified. Also, unlike the Fair, the Dair has very distinct uses. There is a time and a place to go for a Dair and it has a distinguished role in Yoshis game, a good Yoshi will spot the correct oppertunity where Dair is required. The Fair however has no distinct place in Yoshis playstyle, and attempting to land it is more of an individual mission than an option.
This change to the Dair might actually make for slightly better justification for the change to Yoshis Fair... for obvious reasons.

Not sure on the feasibilty of this next one, but just as an idea...
What would be interesting is if you could make the timing for the DR tech less damanding, I actually use this tech quite often and I believe that there are very few others that do. It is my belief that there is great untapped potential in this that has been missed as nearly everyone who attempts to learn it gives up quickly as the timing to perform it is rather ****ding.

Currently, when an opponant breaks out of an egg after you Egglay them, they are given a few invincibility frames. These few frames of invincibity mean that we cannot chase the egg and pretty much eliminate any follow-up. I'm not sure if it is possible to remove the brea-out invincibilty but it would be an immensly usefull modification.

Thats about all I can think of at the moment, I did have a couple of other things I wanted to add but they seem to have slipped my mind.

 

[Seagull Joe]

this is a fun way to play brawl.much more balanced as the title indicates.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

A few Yoshi notes.

For one, Thinkaman corrected us all (in a discussion I had with him). I feel really dumb for not noticing myself. Yoshi's bair is unchanged. His utilt is and will be thus looked at (made more faithful to old behavior but remaining superior), and ftilt will get a similar look (did you mean that and not bair?). I also called utilt uair and generally made a confused reply; forgive that. We'll do sanity checking on our end relative to bair, but if it's any different, that's a bug and not a feature.

Also, for two, Yoshi actually has the second worst roll in the game. The actual worst belongs to Samus. Also consider that Yoshi is tied for best spotdodge. Yoshi is really such a character that shielding is a last resort option instead of a basic defensive characteristic; it's actually the single biggest reason Yoshi is such an outlier among the cast. If he could jump out of it or had normal shield drop lag, he would be so much more like the other characters which is probably not good.

Since Yoshi has been discussed so much though, question before we get too much further, how good does he seem to you Yoshi mains compared to the rest of the cast? Overall quality is one of the most important things to consider in a character, and where Yoshi stands relative to everyone else... is non-obvious.

Also, as a final note, any changes involving Egg Lay rank between "extremely difficult" and "impossible". We wanted to change it, but it's not really practical.

 

[jalued]

For one, don't think of "Sheik". "Sheik" is not a character we balanced. Do think of the character "Zelda & Sheik". The two are tied together, and we balanced them as a single character. That being said, we are definitely watching them, and they were a general problem for us throughout development. Dtilt is definitely non-trivial though; she can follow up on it pretty nicely especially at low damage (maybe not true combo, but that's not the end of the world). Making her better at killing (edgeguarding is a form of killing) is definitely NOT something we want to do with Sheik. Her whole design is centered around her one main kill move: switch to Zelda. We aren't going to hurt her limited other kill options like usmash and Vanish, but at the same time, we aren't going to encourage the playstyle of neglecting the other half of the character.

As per Captain Falcon, I don't think you are really in-line with his concept. His concept is being a power character who accepts low range and priority in exchange for exceptional mobility. In other smash games it happened that this led to him being a beastly combo character, but those are other smash games, and we were looking to balance Brawl Captain Falcon as himself, not as a different Captain Falcon from a different game. What I'm saying here is really just give Captain Falcon a chance, and don't be biased by previous versions of Captain Falcon and how they worked when looking at him. He doesn't combo like 64 and melee C.Falcon, and he doesn't just lose like brawl C.Falcon did in practice, but he does work like you would have expected Brawl C.Falcon to work had you just analyzed him independently and not in the context of previous smash games.

Regardless, hitstun is not changing (it's a global value anyway). It's non-negotiable; increasing it would completely defy all of our design principles. I disagree strongly that Captain Falcon can't be good with the current physics of the game, but even if that were true, it would just mean that Captain Falcon would be bad and we'd just make him as close to good as possible.

yeah maybe ur right about falcon. but with regards to sheik, this is completely the wrong idea to go with. how can u say that its not a prob that dtilt to anything isnt a true combo??

basically, ur idea is that sheik is the damage racker, and zelda is the kill machine, and thats fine apart from one fact... sheik cant rack damage anymore!!! the only real way for sheik to rack damage in vbrawl was ftilt and needles. you have basically stripped sheik of everything she had to rack damage. why would anyone play sheik when they can just play zelda who has fireballs and is decent at racking damage AND killing. you havnt made people play sheik AND zelda, you have just got rid of any viable use of sheik.

you have to rethink ur idea of sheik/zelda. sheik isnt just the damage racker, she is also the gimper, but her fair is not good enough to gimp (expect very bad recoveries), so no one will ever use sheik in ur so called "balanced" brawl. tbh though, i really dont know what u can give sheik to make it better short of making all her moves inflict 30%, as she requires combos to rack damage, but there are no combos (the only "combo" she had is now gone) for her, so she is utterly useless. u really havnt thought this one through

i just think that some characters seriously require hitstun to be able to function properly, and however hard u try, some characters in brawl just dont fit quite right, and sheik sadly is one of them

ironically i dont like sheik in brawl+ casue shes boring, i main her in vbrawl though so i do know what im talking about. the only good from ur changes are that sheik dittos will be better. i guarentee now u have removed the ftilt lock that she can no longer keep up with the rest of the cast

this is a fun way to play brawl.much more balanced as the title indicates.

are u really sure its balanced? i dont see why GW hasnt been changed for example. a game like brawl i feel is alot harder to balance than brawl+ because since combos dont exist, then there are no chances to combo to death any opponent. a defensive game is alot harder to balance. also there are stupid changes such as +1% damage on fox's illusion.. i mean WTF?? and surely they should have used the tier list if everyone is meant to be as good as diddy, but some characters alot lower/higher than diddy have not even been touched... its not balanced at all

 

[Big O]

I would like to know how Ganon's new Utilt trades favorably with Shiek's chain. Her chain racks up damage faster than the wind of his Utilt. It doesn't seem to do anything to the chain and doesn't seem to clank with it. I love what it does to Olimar's pikmin though.

 

[auroreon]

Shame to hear about the unfeasibility of Egglay changes, it shouldn't matter much though tbh as Yoshis egglay is actually a very good move already. It was only just the whole chasing problem that annoys me, but if you can't change that then its not that big of a deal.

Forgot about Samus' roll. But my point still stands that it is an incredibly poor roll.
The problem with the shield though is that the game is simply not designed to allow for over-reliance on spotdodging. Yes, Yoshi mains probably spotdodge more than other characters, but most good Yoshis also have to rely on their shield very often. Many many moves punish spotdodges, and we have learnt that over-reliance on them is a mistake.

When you ask how good Yoshi seems in relation to the rest of the cast, are you refering to within the current release of Balanced Brawl or vBrawl?
I don't think anyone can really answer that for balanced brawl right now because it has not been out nearly long enough for people to form an idea.
In standard Brawl however, most goos Yoshi mains see Yoshi as a very poor character, deffinatly low tier. Personally I think slightly higher of him, higher-low tier or even bottom mid maybe. But I think we are all in agreement that he is a poor character.

Didn't realise Bair was unchanged lol, from what I have played so far I don't seem to be able to get in Bair > follow-up as often as usual.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I mean, you must have some idea of how Yoshi feels in balanced brawl since the game is far from an unknown mechanically. Still, I suppose people need a little more time to be willing to make such claims, even vague ones like saying "low" or "high".

 

[NintenJoe]

yeah maybe ur right about falcon. but with regards to sheik, this is completely the wrong idea to go with. how can u say that its not a prob that dtilt to anything isnt a true combo??

basically, ur idea is that sheik is the damage racker, and zelda is the kill machine, and thats fine apart from one fact... sheik cant rack damage anymore!!! the only real way for sheik to rack damage in vbrawl was ftilt and needles. you have basically stripped sheik of everything she had to rack damage. why would anyone play sheik when they can just play zelda who has fireballs and is decent at racking damage AND killing. you havnt made people play sheik AND zelda, you have just got rid of any viable use of sheik.

you have to rethink ur idea of sheik/zelda. sheik isnt just the damage racker, she is also the gimper, but her fair is not good enough to gimp (expect very bad recoveries), so no one will ever use sheik in ur so called "balanced" brawl. tbh though, i really dont know what u can give sheik to make it better short of making all her moves inflict 30%, as she requires combos to rack damage, but there are no combos (the only "combo" she had is now gone) for her, so she is utterly useless. u really havnt thought this one through

i just think that some characters seriously require hitstun to be able to function properly, and however hard u try, some characters in brawl just dont fit quite right, and sheik sadly is one of them

ironically i dont like sheik in brawl+ casue shes boring, i main her in vbrawl though so i do know what im talking about. the only good from ur changes are that sheik dittos will be better. i guarentee now u have removed the ftilt lock that she can no longer keep up with the rest of the cast

tbh you're just being somewhat ignorant and single-minded. I play Sheik very frequently in vBrawl and have played her with her new adjustments in BBrawl. Ftilt doesn't have the same lock property, but the adjustments made allow for Sheik to score a few Ftilts before following up with a spacing move, such as Uair or Utilt, both of which are set up terrifically by the new Ftilt. Unfortunately, after this strategy works once or twice, high level players will often space more carefully in order to avoid the deadly Ftilt and ultimately demolish Sheik's approach. The removal of the Ftilt is understandable, but Sheik definitely needs to be compensated somehow.

The addition of the Dtilt angle actually sets up nicely for Ftilts and even grabs at lower percentages, but it's pretty hard to land without a jab cancel or some sort of shield pressure. Sheik needs an approach, it's been something that she has lacked since the early days of vBrawl. Needles are decent enough for camping and such, but with any significant approaches it's hard to build up damage otherwise.

I highly recommend that changes be made to Sheik's rediculous Fsmash. The first hit can NEVER follow up into the second hit on a human player. Like Toon Link's Fsmash, this needs to be fixed somehow to make it a viable move. Dsmash isn't that great, but at least it's kind of an "anti-spot-dodge" move which I can live with. I seriously think that the first hit should be DI-able, but something more akin to Diddy's Fsmash in escapability. Otherwise, Sheik has one kill move that is hard to hit due to the new Ftilt: Usmash.

This gets me into my next point: Sheik and Zelda. Personally, I hate Zelda and would rather just play as Sheik the whole game. This was a viable option before because Ftilt lock allowed me to build up damage incredibly fast and still allowed for fresh killing moves to be utilized. Now, without easy damage racking, killing possibilities (even at around 130%), and the ability to approach, Sheik is sort of stuck. If you're pushing for a team aspect with Zelda and Sheik, make the transformation time shorter. It can be long to ensure that it won't be an abused change, but if you want Sheik players to use Zelda and vice versa we should AT LEAST be able to switch in between lives without getting punished.

So, the options:

-Add an approach for Sheik so that she can actually set up her Ftilt combos and rack up damage.
-Increase Sheik's killing power.
-Make the switch between Sheik and Zelda better.

 

[jahkzheng]

Hey, sorry if I offended anyone with my previous post.
I changed it after a complaint.
No worries.

This thread seems to be full of heated discussion and that's good as long as it doesn't get ugly, lol.

 

[Thinkaman]

My point is that before I could decide how much tech chasing I wanted to incorporate into my game. Changing dtilt, one of Ganon's primary moves, to serve only one purpose removes that because, as I said, it only has one application with the tripping mechanic. In vBrawl you can combo out of dtilt at low to mid percents into a number of different moves or setups, or kill at high %s if it isn't too stale. With the tripping on it it can only be used for ground tech chasing and sticks Ganon into one style of play and keeps him on the ground running back and forth tech chasing.
It seems like your saying Ganon didn't have any high damage chasing abilities with choke before this change, which is pretty untrue. Choke to fsmash, sex change, dair, fair, or quake can all be effective damage builders, and dair is already a staple move for damage racking.

I use almost every character besides Ganon once in awhile, and I guess sometimes use those mentioned, but I don't like any of them .__. Ganon is the only character in brawl I like.
But I've never had to rely on heavy tech chasing to do reasonably well with Ganon. With these changes it's the only option rather than a choice I can make as appropriate, and I'd rather just play vBrawl in such a circumstance whether this is more balanced or not.

I'm still not sure what you are complaining about. We are doing nothing to d-tilt but replacing the existing mediocre followup options (occassional uair, side-B at low %s agaisnt stupid people) with really, really good ones. Every single Ganon main who has played with this for 5 minutes is excited about the new possibilities; in less than a minute Jekyll was using it for things I hadn't even thought of.

I'm just going to ask that you try it before complaining.

actually the uthrow and dthrow dont combo unless the opponent does nothing

THE GRAPHIC LIED TO ME
what is the talk of pikas upthrow then?

Nothing is guaranteed, sorry if it is implied otherwise. It simply puts Pikachu is an excellent position; the enemy is right about him and he has a slim frame advantage. Every option the enemy could try should have some way for Pikachu to punish. On top of this, even hoping to avoid whatever followup you choose does require good reflexes on the part of the enemy.

Something I just thought of: when you changed Link & Metaknight's B attacks, did you also change the versions Kirby copies?

wow I never thought of this actually. It would probably be a good idea to fix that. Kirby could keep MK's **** tornado or get Link's new gimp arrows... hmmm....

Kirby's nado seems to work the exact same as in vBrawl.
edit: Kirby's copies are the same as in vBrawl.

This was intentional.

From the beginnign we toyed with the idea of chaning Kirby's copy powers. We even have some of the hitbox data for his various moves, and tested some changes. However, for the time being we decided to leave Kirby alone and see how he fits into the new meta game with no changes. This will best allow us to determine if changes need to be made in the future, and what changes should be pursued. (Possibly including copy powers)

Quick question... how exactly did you change ZSS's ability to chain Dsmashes? I'm just making sure you didn't do it in a way that would effect other aspects of her gameplay with her Dsmash.

I just slightly tweaked the knockback parameters so that it can't chain Fox anymore, nor anyone else. I tested to make sure bair and down-B out of d-smash are viable still, please let us know if you find anything that needs attention!

If you wanna do ZSS any favors, you won't change much. SHe's a balanced-or-better character that goes even-ish against 90% of the cast and needs very little in the way of changes:

- Jab combo needs to connect. This is a design flaw, just like dsmash gains or infinite grab combos. Change the angle of the second jab so that it sends the opponent upwards just enough to get them off the ground.

- Grab is hard to deal with. I wouldn't want to see you mess with the grab lag much because it's a weakness that makes sense, but what you should do is increase the stun time on Paralyzer Shot a little bit so that the baby hitbox (uncharged shot) means a guaranteed grab.

That's it. Change nothing else. If you must change Fsmash, make it trip or something. We have no guaranteed jab locks or anything, so that would be fine.

I do encourage you to try to f-smash change before dismissing it. However, on the whole I think a thank you is in order for your posts. I hope all players that disagree with a change post in a productive and civil manner like this, and provide logical points for our benefit.

Remember, we are indeed listening. Otherwise this thread would never have been made.

Yes, isn't it amazing?

I kid, I kid.

Honestly, DDD's techchasing seems pretty usable. He's certainly not as good as he was before (which was partially the objective since he IS better then Diddy in Vbrawl), but he seems to still have a useful techchassing game.

Other impressions. Ganondorf's quake is too slow to really be useful.

Ganon's quake is still a pocket benefit. Jekyll in particular really liked it, but I don't consider it a big deal personally. (As opposed to Ganon d-tilt, which is probably the biggest buff in this project)

basically it sends the opponet in a small arc, which they can jump out/di/ maybe even attack out of.

same with downthrow

i understand there was no way around that sadly, i was one of the few who used upthrow lol

I am really counting on Pikachu players to explore this fully. We really need to establish a firm grasp on what Pikachu can and cannot do, and how this affects his matchups. Only then will we be able to determine the next course of action.

Tech chasing a computer is far to easy.
Tech chasing top level players is near impossible.

Humans are in some ways easier to techchase because they have better valuation skills and are incapable of random decisions. CPUs do more stupid things though. For example, I can chain CPUs longer with Ganon, but I punish forward rolls with powerful moves more on humans.

I tried out the new knee and it kills Mario at 53% if he doesn't DI from the middle of FD. His Utilt kills at about 100% too. CF is scary now. Maybe you should tone down the knee a little since it's stronger than a fully charged giant punch now. His up b doing 22 damage is nice but I always found it weird how his up b is stronger and does more damage than Ganon's. With Ganon's new shoryuken I don't really care about that anymore though.

Knee has only had a natural knockback increase by increasign the damage, and u-tilt has only had an angle change. I'm not discrediting how good they are, quite the opposite; Falcon's KO power is better than ever. Up-B is now occasionally worth the risk of doing on the ground instead of a normal standing grab...

I love the new wizkick with Ganon. It is finally safe on hit at low damage and actually has knockback. The pitfall mechanic and new Dtilt is also very nice. The new shoryuken on his up b is also very fitting. I approve of the new King of Evil. You can still attack Ganon out of his up b grab though. I think the only way to fix it is to make the last hit have a fixed amount of knockback. Just enough so that Jiggs won't go into tumble so that no character can attack out of tumble hitstun. If you can't change the knockback you could make it do more damage and send at a semi-spike angle to make attacking him more difficult.

First, Ganon's up-B is a grab/throw, so it cannot be changed... but the shocks are hitboxes, so they can be changed. All shocks also use the same hitbox. What you are seeign is about the only possible change besides an elemental swap.

In response to Thinkaman's answer about his Dtilt being a "slip" move I don't think it is working as you intended. You say it can double trip but no matter how I try, after the first trip they won't trip a second time until after they roll/get up. In fact it just makes them get up instead. I'm just putting this out there since you say you have to adjust the frames to get rid of a trip lock. You probably don't need to do that judging from the small amount of time I put into trying it out.

To double slip, you have to to hit within 40 frames... with is the duration of their d-tilts now. This prevents them from infinitely locking people with d-tilts 1v1.

For the record, ZSS's fsmash buff would be a great move if she played like Ike. But ZSS does not play like Ike. Ike is very ground-based and gets KOs by predicting his opponents defensive choices with high-risk/high-reward KOers. ZSS plays like ZSS, who is primarily an aerial character. Most of her ground game is designed to put her opponent into the air so she can punish them there. She also uses her superb aerial movement to bait out opportunities to KO with her aerials like uair, bair and fair.

Furthermore, ZSS already has one grounded move that is used for predicting defensive moves, and that has as much range as fsmash, is safe on block, and comes out in the same exact amount of time. It also sets up for any of her five KO moves depending on context. Dsmash is another move that Fsmash pales in comparison to.

So buffing Fsmash would involve a lot of thinking beyond what you seem to have given it. It's not like the knockback was terrible in vBrawl. Actually, it wasn't too bad, and if it had been on a better move, I would have appreciated it. It's not even the slow start up. Obviously, we still manage to hit with Plasma Whip and Dsmash. No, the biggest problem with Fsmash is that if I'm blocked, there are 47 frames where my opponent can do whatever they want. Unless that changes, fsmash isn't really worth using, except maybe after Dsmash, but like Adapt has shown, Dsmash x2 -> aerial KO move is just as good, if not better.

I'm not even trying to tell you to make Fsmash better. I'm telling you not to try. ZSS mains have been getting by without Fsmash since the game came out, and we don't even complain about it anymore. We joke about it, because the move is a joke. If you want a minor buff that will actually help the character, focus on the jab buff, and just forget about the Fsmash buff.

I mean, really; You want to be conservative with buffs, and here you have some of the most highly respected ZSS mains (seriously, I didn't even know who Holms was until you mentioned him) telling you not to give us a particular buff, and your response is, "nah, I think we'll keep it"? Explain this anomaly.

The issue here is that people that have actually played with it seem to enjoy the change and appreciate that ZSS's worst move not has some occasional utility. I urge you to test it out yourself with an open mind so you can be a greater part of the input process.

Again, no one is being dismissed... well, at least not the ZSS mains in this topic!

Off the top of my head. Zelda could use din's fire not causing deadfall, something actually capable of shield pressuring or at the very least something that is safe on non power shielded block. The Ending lag on her moves makes heavy characters blush. FW is pretty pathetic too but maybe that's just me.

I actually did some interesting Zelda experiments, including messing with Din's Fire and tweaking nair and Nayru's Love. None of these changes tested well or felt up to the standard of the project. For the time being, Zelda (and to some extent Sheik) were changed very conservatively and put in the "wait and see" pile.

Remember guys, this is a "preview; nothing final, no rush.

just to say, ur sheik changes. yeah u have removed the ftilt lock, but u have given her NOTHING to make up for that. if ur going to make the dtilt any better it needs to have alot less cooldown. without the ftilt lock she now will be bottom tier, defiantely. at least give her a better fair so she can at least edgeguard better.

u cant say things like (make her combo better), as there are no combos in brawl that she can actually pull off.

oh and falcon still sucks cause the entire concept of falcon is that he needs to be able to combo. his main problem is lack of priority and ability to inflict damage, and without histun he will never be mid tier

First, Sheik is in the "wait and see" pile as I just said. However, I would like to say that testers in general say that f-tilt's extra damage makes up for the tilt lock on average, sicne it helps more in matchups where tilt lock was less effective. It also should technically do a tiny bit more hitstun now.

No it's not. While this has good intentions, the reason most people are leaving Brawl is NOT because of the characters.
IT'S MOSTLY DUE TO ISSUES THAT STEM FROM THE GAME ENGINE ITSELF.

For example, even with the tornado nerfed, he could still use it to stall like crazy and the balance between offense and defense is still way off with defense still being supreme unless you are Metaknight.

Brawl + fixes issues with the game engine.

Favor. May someone please someone gather hitbox data for all of Yoshi and Snake's attacks for me?
I don't have a gecko and would really appreciate it.

You just came in the topic for our project, told us it was pointless, a waste of our time, and inferior to Brawl +... and then asked me to help you?

No.

OK, I understand that you tried your best with the throws, but that is not what I was trying to get at here. My main problem is that Yoshi doesn't have any OoS options outside of rolling and spot-dodging. He can't jump out of shield, and therefore the usefulness of his shield is greatly lessened.

Ask any Yoshi main what they want changed in Yoshi, and the first thing they'll say is "OoS options." I garauntee it. Without them, it would be almost impossible for Yoshi to become viable in this project, even with his buffs. To tell you the truth, if you got rid of all of Yoshi's other buffs (except for d-smash and Egg Roll) and replaced it with OoS options, then I'll be perfectly satisfied. In fact, OoS options should have been the game changer for Yoshi, not Egg Roll.

Ganon wants fast moves, Sonic wants KO power, and Olimar wants a better recovery. Sure, we could make all the characters the same, but that would be the most terrible thing ever.

Yoshi has a unique weakness: an incredibly bad shield. Our job here is to upgrade Yoshi's strengths so that they make up for his weakness, like most other characters. I hope you can be a part of that, and offer your own testing experiences and input so that we do Yoshi right.

i just tested the D3 teching system, and I was definitely wrong... the new tech chase system actually allows D3 to true combo most characters with Dtilt, Ftilt, and even (surprisingly) Dsmash. Performing Uthrow to Dtilt deals considerable damage, shows up as a true combo on the training indicator, and spaces out D3 reasonably from his opponent. The Uthrow->Dsmash follow-up can even lead to Utilt on characters with marginal Dairs, such as Mario or Ness (huge start up time).

As for sending enemies to their doom of the stage, D3's new Uthrow goes way too far down. As Ryko stated earlier, it can lead to instant inhales but I'm not sure if airdodging ensures instant death. Dthrow doesn't have this complication off ledges though.

Are you guys DI'ing the throws up and out? It makes a huge difference, especially for people with bad recoveries.

Thanks a ton for investigating this, as well as keeping an open mind as you evaluate it. That is the only way we can pursue the truth.

Right along with Poltergust, I need to put in my input on Yoshi.

First of all, I don't like the increased damage percentage on Utilt and Bair. Bair and Utilt is a staple at our early strings. The more percentage it adds, the worse we're off. Because instead of getting to do it like twice guaranteed we might get to do it once with a few more percentage but still the double beats it. Then, my concern is with OoS options. We desperately need them. About the only thing we can do with our shield is not get poked. Hell, Yoshi's rarely even shield because of our **** shield. Yoshi needs his shield like everyone elses, that's balanced. Nextly, the fair being game changing? Not at all. Our Fair is one of our least used moves and adding a few extra percent with DKs Side B ability isn't going to change that. Our other aerials are still tons better.

On the plus side, I love the egg roll. It puts us about even with GWs Bucket Braking now. We can finally rely on that to live a hell of a lot longer. I love that Dsmash can kill, and like the DownB buff.

I would like to see our Dair improved though. It was majorly nerfed through the series it dropped from like 56+% to 37%. Lolwut? That's gay.

Thanks for listening to my *****ing, lol. Good stuff though AA. I really hope something comes of this.

Chaco, first, thanks for this post. Also, thanks for testing Yoshi out.

Bair should be unchanged, I am fairly certain that we never touched it. We recognized it as a function strength for Yoshi, and vowed to not screw it up.

U-tilt is an excellent point, since our Yoshi main in playtesting under-utilized it. I will investigate this and look at adding compensation like we did for say, Jigglypuff's bair.

Don't under estimate the fair buff, it really is nifty. It was inspired by a set I played agaisnt bwett, where a couple of times he pulled off a fair on me on stage. I was surprised that he would make such a risky move for somewhat little reward. This change doesn't make the risk any less, but makes the reward pretty huge! JGALT was able to land it maybe not every game, but definitely every 2 or 3 games; twice a match is not rare. Generally this means a f-smash KO, mind you.

I'm glad to enjoy the other changes. I hope in coming weeks you can get a better impression of exactly how these changes impact Yoshi and where he stands in the cast. All input is great.

I am actually happy with the changes.. While having no OoS options still being a bummer, ALl I really wanted was a stronger downsmash, the ability to get out of egg roll, and a trip added to the down tilt. 2 out of 3 not bad. Yoshi is really close to being balanced now.. I really kinda like our shield....after playing with other chars, I was getting poked left and right, kinda frustrating... no OoS options is manageable, not being able to kill isnt. Which is what was fixed..

I find it ironic how Snake's jab is nerfed while his f-tilt is left intact (not that I see a problem with the jab nerf).

Even if you don't want to change the range or priority, the move definitely at least needs a damage nerf.

My apologies if this has been stated already.

This was actually intentional. Snake f-tilt is one of the things that makes him Snake; it is a solid strength, like Olimar grabs or MK aerials or Diddy Bananas... Unlike u-tilt, it isn't a problem move, just a really good one. Instead we diverted our desire to nerf snake to merely his third jab, a much smaller nerf. We'll see how Snake stands with this.

You can thank PR1DE for drawing it to our attention. Yoshi has a lot of flaws so we see this as an opportunity to fix these flaws and make him a more viable character.

I really need to put my icon back to Yoshi. People are starting to think I main Tink. Lol.

Good stuff! Yoshi and Samus were actually the two characters we were most concerned with in the 11th hour of testing. We hope where Yoshi is now is enjoyable and is able to generate lots of good feedback from the Yoshi community!

Feedback, feedback, feedback...

How many more versions of this do you anticipate, or is this going to be one of those projects that will constantly evolve?

It sounds like you guys are trying to achieve balance in the simplest possible way so as to come to some final result.

I ask this because Brawl+ suffers from a game that is constantly changing, making learning character strategies and the like apparently pointless.

I understand this is one of those things where you will be tweaking and tinkering with different properties to try and make your game as good as it can be. I just hope that this project finds more stability then B+, so that its users can develop their new strategies without worrying about those strategies disappearing.

Doing projects like this is intriguing in that you are developing a game to accommodate an evolved gameplay, yet vBrawl's gameplay is still evolving despite being a static game.

I'm sure you are all aware of this, but I felt I should voice it in acknowledgment to your work.

Good luck with the project. I think what you are doing is as close as I've seen anyone come to making a fair version of Brawl while staying true to the game.

Now time to try it out...

While we are committing to a release schedule quite yet, especially since this is only a preview, what I personally would like to see happen with the final product is updates only twice a year, probably Summer and Winter. People need time to "digest" cahnges, balance takes tiem to settle. We'll see though.

 

[YagamiLight]

After messing around some more with BBrawl Ike I would just like to tell you guys that I am completely satisfied with him, even if you don't make any more changes. Olimar is still an annoyance but I'm sure that can be worked out eventually. Good job on making such a nice product.

 

[jahkzheng]

I've altered that quote Thinkaman, but thanks for your response.

 

[DippnDots]

I can't wait to try this, I was, to say the least, on the verge of suicide when i played brawl ganon for the first time. Thank you for recognizing ganon as ganon

 

[hippiedude92]

I was wondering for luigi if you guys can take out the misfire and the part (idk the name) where he green missles/misfires to a wall and gets his head stuck on the wall. I mean misfire has 1/8 chance of happening, though I know some people have john'd about it because it is a luck factor and people hate luck in a competitive game. As for wall sticky thing... it's just plain straight up gay... to have some luck thing too and get gimped/stage spiked by it.

>.> *rants*

 

[DippnDots]

Brawl missfire is ten times more hilarious than melee missfire, and that move shouldn't be anything but hilarious.

 

[Bladewing]

I'm a snake main and I just have to say that even I am satisfied knowing full well that snake's up tilt lost kill potential. It really was just too powerful for him.

Also I love the fact that ike is actually good now lol.

 

[Thinkaman]

So, thanks Balanced Brawl peoples! I am going to use this codeset and try it out thoroughly. I hope it's as awesome as it seems, and please keep up the good work! I'll contribute any data I get on who or what needs changes.

Thanks, I will hold you to contributing your experiences!

What I think every Yoshi main will agree on is that the increased knockback on the downsmash is a vital buff, it covers one of, if not the, biggest of Yoshis flaws which is the difficulty in killing. Being able to get that kill in with the Dsmash now has proved so far to be an wonderful improvement.
The next buff that I am very happy about is the Eggroll, Egg-braking has allowed me to survive to much higher percentages. And Yoshi is heavier than G&W.
The increased damage on Tilts, dash attack and slight modification to DownB are welcome little tweaks that deffinatly help to slowly work toward a more balanced character.

I'm glad you find these changes helpful in theory, and I hope you will fidn them helpful in practice!

Now onto what was not-so-good.
I will start with the Fair issue. The problem I, and from the looks of it other Yoshi mains, are having with the changes to his Fair are that it simply is not what we need.
Yoshis Fair is his worst aerial, mostly due to the fact that is extremely difficult to land on good opponants. Whilst initially the idea to add this property of grounding opponants to the Fair seems like a good way to make a bad move more viable, when you are actually playing against skilled opponants you soon realise that it really isn't very useful at all.
You will rarely land Fairs, and Yoshi mains have learnt to mostly avoid using it on-stage for this reason.
When the Fair is actually used its ussually not on-stage but off-stage for the spike, making it so it always spikes would probably be a much better modification.
Now, as you state in the OP, one of the goals of this project is retain the playstyle of a character as much as possible, but by trying to put some emthasis on the Fair you are changing the general playstyle of the character. We simply don't use fair.
I think we all just feel that this modification to the Fair is unessesary and offers no major benefit in comparrison to other changes that Yoshi desperatly needs.

I am going to back up and explain a general design idea that is coming up again and again.

There are three ways to buff a character:
1. Enhance Strengths
2. Decrease Weaknesses
3. Improve the In-Between

Each has pros and cons. Enhancing strengths makes the characters more unique, but threatens to polarize matchups and reduce matchup balance. Decreasing weaknesses does the opposite; it homogenizes characters but reduces matchup bias. Finally, improving the character in general (in ways other than their existing strengths) buffs them without skewing matchups... but the effect of these changes are very small because they do not play to the character's existing playstyle.

Yoshi's fair and ZSS's f-smash are in the third category. It buffs them a little bit without adding onto their existing strengths, by design. For Yoshi, this was because we didn't want to simply make him a character about nairs, eggs, and pivot grabs. ZSS meanwhile, was already a good character all-around... but just low enough to need a little something extra outside of the ordinary for her.

Only playtesting experience by intelligent players (like yourselves!) will show if these buffs do work as intended. I appreciate the discussion, but ultimately it is playtesting will trump everyone, including me and Ampharos. I hope you guys can be a part of it.

The problem Chaco explained about increased damage to Utilt and Bair are very valid points and I'm sure that will be patched up by you as you say. I am however appreciative of the slight increase in damage on the two moves and I can really see the advantage of that, if you could keep that but fix the problem as descibed by Chaco much like what you have done with Jiggz aerials, I think that would be for the best.

Onto potential changes to Yoshi. I'd just like to make it clear that I am in no way suggesting that all these changes need be added, merely as just a list of things that could potentially be changed to improve Yoshi.
Firstly and most importantly, I know how you feel about Yoshis shield being a distinguishing character feature, but what you need to understand is that as Yoshi mains we have the best understanding of Yoshis flaws. As you have seen, we are mostly in agreement that Yoshis shield properties are a major flaw.
Simply put, I think of the things that Yoshi truly does require to best reach the balance being aimed for is the alteration of Yoshis shield. I would describe it more as a cage than a shield, because Yoshi is incredibly limted in his options on coming out of it.
The lag on dropping the shield means that safetly dropping it without being punsihed is unlikely, and there is even less chance that you will be able to perform anything out the shield drop.
Yoshi also cannot jump out of his shield, and is the only character to have this afflication, thus limiting his options for escape even further.
We are left with shield grab, roll and spotdodge. However, all of these three options are also severely flawed. Firstly, shield grabbing with Yoshi is an extreme rarity thanks to him having the slowest standing grab animation in the game, the slowest shield drop in the game and the fact that when Yoshis shield is hit by an attack it slides away dependant on knockback so ussually the shield slides out of shield-grab range anyway.
Rolling is not a particuarly viable option either, Yoshi has the worst roll in the game and is vunerable for a sizable portion of the roll animation.
Spotdodging is my personal most used method of escaping Yoshis shield, but even that has its problems. When spotdodging out of the shield, Yoshi is vunerable to attack very briefly as he transitions from shield to spot-dodge. And then has vunerability again at the end of the animation.
So as you can see, Yoshis shield causes us a great deal of problems and I for one would very much like to see this issue addressed. I think the most viable and sensible ideas for dealing with this issue are increasing the drop-speed of the shield and/or allowing Yoshi to jump out of his shield.

I understand that Yoshi's shield is a large flaw, even huge. However, this key is that it is not a polarizing flaw. It is the sort of flaw that doesn't ruin a couple matchups for Yoshi, it just makes him bad in general. That is the sort of flaw we can work with and improve around.

Yoshi already has the best spotdodge in the game (tied), so that's a start. I think the Egg Roll upgrade is also an appropriate answer, by increasing survivability. At the end of the day, I am confident that Yoshi can have this weakness and still be made a great character.

I would like to know how Ganon's new Utilt trades favorably with Shiek's chain. Her chain racks up damage faster than the wind of his Utilt. It doesn't seem to do anything to the chain and doesn't seem to clank with it. I love what it does to Olimar's pikmin though.

The key is that you can pull Shiek out from under platforms so you can do your usual down-b through it if she doesn't stop/move. You are forcing Sheik to do something, and trading damage about evenly in the process.

yeah maybe ur right about falcon. but with regards to sheik, this is completely the wrong idea to go with. how can u say that its not a prob that dtilt to anything isnt a true combo??

basically, ur idea is that sheik is the damage racker, and zelda is the kill machine, and thats fine apart from one fact... sheik cant rack damage anymore!!!

Saying that Sheik's only way of racking damage is f-tilt lock does not make you appear credible... Testers have actually done a little better on average with the altered Sheik than the original, no lie.

When you ask how good Yoshi seems in relation to the rest of the cast, are you refering to within the current release of Balanced Brawl or vBrawl?
I don't think anyone can really answer that for balanced brawl right now because it has not been out nearly long enough for people to form an idea.
In standard Brawl however, most goos Yoshi mains see Yoshi as a very poor character, deffinatly low tier. Personally I think slightly higher of him, higher-low tier or even bottom mid maybe. But I think we are all in agreement that he is a poor character.

Didn't realise Bair was unchanged lol, from what I have played so far I don't seem to be able to get in Bair > follow-up as often as usual.

I really hope you will continue playing and develop that idea of where Yoshi stands so you can share it with us. Only with input like this can the project advance.

tbh you're just being somewhat ignorant and single-minded. I play Sheik very frequently in vBrawl and have played her with her new adjustments in BBrawl. Ftilt doesn't have the same lock property, but the adjustments made allow for Sheik to score a few Ftilts before following up with a spacing move, such as Uair or Utilt, both of which are set up terrifically by the new Ftilt. Unfortunately, after this strategy works once or twice, high level players will often space more carefully in order to avoid the deadly Ftilt and ultimately demolish Sheik's approach. The removal of the Ftilt is understandable, but Sheik definitely needs to be compensated somehow.

The addition of the Dtilt angle actually sets up nicely for Ftilts and even grabs at lower percentages, but it's pretty hard to land without a jab cancel or some sort of shield pressure. Sheik needs an approach, it's been something that she has lacked since the early days of vBrawl. Needles are decent enough for camping and such, but with any significant approaches it's hard to build up damage otherwise.

I highly recommend that changes be made to Sheik's rediculous Fsmash. The first hit can NEVER follow up into the second hit on a human player. Like Toon Link's Fsmash, this needs to be fixed somehow to make it a viable move. Dsmash isn't that great, but at least it's kind of an "anti-spot-dodge" move which I can live with. I seriously think that the first hit should be DI-able, but something more akin to Diddy's Fsmash in escapability. Otherwise, Sheik has one kill move that is hard to hit due to the new Ftilt: Usmash.

This gets me into my next point: Sheik and Zelda. Personally, I hate Zelda and would rather just play as Sheik the whole game. This was a viable option before because Ftilt lock allowed me to build up damage incredibly fast and still allowed for fresh killing moves to be utilized. Now, without easy damage racking, killing possibilities (even at around 130%), and the ability to approach, Sheik is sort of stuck. If you're pushing for a team aspect with Zelda and Sheik, make the transformation time shorter. It can be long to ensure that it won't be an abused change, but if you want Sheik players to use Zelda and vice versa we should AT LEAST be able to switch in between lives without getting punished.

So, the options:

-Add an approach for Sheik so that she can actually set up her Ftilt combos and rack up damage.
-Increase Sheik's killing power.
-Make the switch between Sheik and Zelda better.

This was another good post. Shiek is definitely on our watch list; the difficulty of balancing 2 characters together made us want to see how they responded to the other character changes in their matchups first.

We will almost certainly not be increasing Sheik's kill power, but making both Sheik and Zelda more consistent in their respective arts is of interest. If you can get some experience with one (or both!) of these characters and get some data on their matchups, what they work well against and what they struggle against in this new metagame, that would be terrific.

 

[Eldiran]

I think I'm going to contribute a bit sooner than expected

Small report: When Ganondorf's Up+B is used on Mario at ~70%, Mario can hit him immediately with his nair, with no chance of Ganondorf avoiding it. At least, that's what the level 9 CPU is doing to me. Is this intentional? I wouldn't be surprised if other characters could do the same trick.

Also a question: I'm sure this has been mentioned somewhere before in the 45 pages, but is there a version of this codeset without the water-death? I'm fairly certain my friends will hate that modification.

P.S. I know this is an opinion I'm contributing, but I dislike Ganon's d-tilt change so far. I used d-tilt so many times as part of my regular playstyle, and this change is just so huge it goes against the "try not to force relearning/unlearning" theme of this codeset.

I don't mean to whine about it, but that's just my two cents.

 

[5ive]

Small report: When Ganondorf's Up+B is used on Mario at ~70%, Mario can hit him immediately with his nair, with no chance of Ganondorf avoiding it. At least, that's what the level 9 CPU is doing to me. Is this intentional? I wouldn't be surprised if other characters could do the same trick.

Also a question: I'm sure this has been mentioned somewhere before in the 45 pages, but is there a version of this codeset without the water-death? I'm fairly certain my friends will hate that modification.

It's called nair canceling. It could be done in vBrawl.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HV9S...be.com/user/5iveRP&feature=player_profilepage

 

[Thinkaman]

Small report: When Ganondorf's Up+B is used on Mario at ~70%, Mario can hit him immediately with his nair, with no chance of Ganondorf avoiding it. At least, that's what the level 9 CPU is doing to me. Is this intentional? I wouldn't be surprised if other characters could do the same trick.

This is behavior in normal Brawl if you aren't aware. It should be more difficult in this version, but still possible. Ganon's Up-B should also always be doing considerable more damage than any move that can counter him.

Still, we are watching this situation earnestly.

Also a question: I'm sure this has been mentioned somewhere before in the 45 pages, but is there a version of this codeset without the water-death? I'm fairly certain my friends will hate that modification.

For now, we'd like people to play with it and generate feedback. Assuming that is will be widely disliked and discovering nothing is an inferior alternative.

Just approach it with an open mind; if you know in advance that water is deadly, it isn't so bad, just a different mentality.

We are definitely watching this very, very intently.

I'm a snake main and I just have to say that even I am satisfied knowing full well that snake's up tilt lost kill potential. It really was just too powerful for him.

Also I love the fact that ike is actually good now lol.

It might surprise some, but most top tier main testers are very pleased with the nerfed versions. They got to keep everything they liked about their character and were used to, and agree with the changes.

 

[Gea]

By the way, I'll be back with a more detailed critique as I play, because so far I'm kind of iffy on a few things (DDD primarily, and a few characters whose buffs are subpar despite the best intentions, but I want some more testing with them).

However, there are two things I'd like to say now.

Jiggs is officially awesome tier. The ONLY thing I'd even say to "change" is her rest being pretty bad still. I don't mind it not being Melee good, but meh, its what makes Jiggs Jiggs.

Other than that Spear Pillar still isn't viable in the least bit. The edges are very very finnicky and normally this isn't THAT big of a deal but the blastzone doesn't leave any room for that. The random breakaways can kills some characters too. If its possible to lower the blastzone so you merely can't land on the bottom part that would be waaay superior.

Oh, and the water is gay. Like I love the nerfing of water camping but as you know, its more deadly now than falling offstage at certain %s (and can be unavoidable). =\

 

[Thinkaman]

Other than that Spear Pillar still isn't viable in the least bit. The edges are very very finnicky and normally this isn't THAT big of a deal but the blastzone doesn't leave any room for that. The random breakaways can kills some characters too. If its possible to lower the blastzone so you merely can't land on the bottom part that would be waaay superior.

The blast zone is as low as it can be without enabling the bottom part... :/

 

[Gea]

That really sucks, but you did all you could I guess.

 

[Eldiran]

Really? That's incredibly interesting. Now I'm really glad none of my friends knew that... and it gives yet another reason why Ganondorf needs all these buffs!

For now, we'd like people to play with it and generate feedback. Assuming that is will be widely disliked and discovering nothing is an inferior alternative.

Just approach it with an open mind; if you know in advance that water is deadly, it isn't so bad, just a different mentality.

We are definitely watching this very, very intently.

Alright, thank you. I'll deal with it for the time being and let you know how it goes. But most of all, thanks for taking the time to respond to my feedback. I really appreciate it.

 

[codfish92]

finally, something that blances brawl. everything else makes it different.

 

[ThreeSided]

I have to go with my fellow ZSS mains here, in that an Fsmash buff is not particularly useful due to the fact that it would need a much larger buff to be worth the risk of using it. Unless you get rid of the god-awful ending lag (and by god-awful I mean by ZSS standards). And of course, that would sorta change the feel of the character too much. So, like the other ZSS mains have said, I would ignore Fsmash unless you were to give it something more impressive, like a significantly larger knockback, or maybe shield breaking qualities. Otherwise, just focus on something else;

One thing that has been suggested so far is the alteration of the jab to make the 2nd hit allow a comboing into a third, rather than being able to PS it. It's a good idea, but the point has also been brought up that a frame-1 jab is good enough. And I'll have to agree with you there.

Another thing that has been mentioned is increased stun time on the paralyzer shot, to allow a guaranteed follow up grab. In all honesty, it actually already does. The thing is that you need very very good reaction time to react in time if it connects. So, people usually end up predicting or reacting too soon, and getting punished for a missed grab. Increased stun time would be useful, but not necessary.

My suggestion? Well, I suggest that you do some sort of combination of the following: decrease the knockback, increase hitstun, and/or enlarge the hitbox on her Nair. It's a move that earlier in the games history, was thought to be useless. It comes out at an awkward angle, has the worst ending lag of all of her aerials (Dair doesn't count as an aerial), and has very little useful knockback. But more recently, the moves potential was found in its special priority, immediate hitbox, increased hitstun (and therefore cool combo-ability) and highly detached hot box. However, it is still a move not commonly seen in ZSS gameplay, only because its usage tends to be situational, and the combos (basically what it's only good for) tend to be a bit difficult to pull out in actual play. By doing some combination of the listed above, I feel her Nair will be buffed just enough to buff ZSS just enough to give her some more fun combo-friendly gameplay, and make her about "diddy level".

Maybe focus all on the Nair, maybe do a bit of it and do the paralyzer thing. Those two ideas sound the best to me.

Also, because my question wasn't answered before:

Quick question... how exactly did you change ZSS's ability to chain Dsmashes? I'm just making sure you didn't do it in a way that would effect other aspects of her gameplay with her Dsmash.

Did you change the stun time? The knockback? What exactly did you change in the move that prevents Dsmash chaining?

 

[Thinkaman]

Also, because my question wasn't answered before:

Did you change the stun time? The knockback? What exactly did you change in the move that prevents Dsmash chaining?

180B3228 1404602F
0B194B14 00460000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000

In other words, knockback was changed from (50/40) to (25/75). That means it does more knockback at low percents and less knockback at high percents. This impacts stun time too, subtly.

Please test it out and tell me if anything feels unnatural or doesn't operate the same.

 

[Ich Bin Awesome]

I really think this is a great idea. I'm a fan of regular brawl, so I appreciate the effort put in to keep the game as familiar as possible. It's not only because I main a low tier that this appeals to me, but also because, like most of us, I'm a fan of high level play. So I'm interested in having more variety in characters used in semi's and finals (instead of MK v MK, MK v Snake). I hope this gains some more momentum.

Now, to Link. I've heard a lot about Link being a top character in this version of brawl due primarily to his arrow buff. My concern is that, though this might help Link initially, in the long run opponents would become adept at avoiding it (which is not really that hard to avoid in the first place, especially for characters with good recovery). Second, Link is already an obvious target for gimps, but this will become a bigger problem if Link is a character that is actually good enough for players to learn the matchup. Even I, with Link's limited off stage game, can gimp experienced Link players well enough.

For this reason, I feel a buffed up-b (whether having SA frames or greater horizontal range or whatever) would be something that evens him out, even in the long run (but I wouldn't mind keeping the arrow XD ).

 

[Zig-Zag!]

if you turn on smashballs, can you make donkey kong's final smash just last the whole match?

 

[ThreeSided]

180B3228 1404602F
0B194B14 00460000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000

In other words, knockback was changed from (50/40) to (25/75). That means it does more knockback at low percents and less knockback at high percents. This impacts stun time too, subtly.

Please test it out and tell me if anything feels unnatural or doesn't operate the same.

Wii's not modded, but it sounds pretty good. Increased knockback at lower percents means it's easier to follow up with an aerial at low percents, something not often done before. Smaller knockback at higher percents should mean it's easier to Bair opponents out of it, IF it's not too much of a reduction, which would actually be a significant nerf.

Also, it would mean that an off-stage Dsmash > Flip kick spike would be harder to do at higher percentages, but easier to do at lower percentages, which is probably a small buff. =)

Someone will have to test all of this out, of course. It all depends on how much the knockback gets affected. I'm not familiar with the numbers used to represent the knockback in coding, so I can't really estimate what the difference would be.

Oh, and

if you turn on smashballs, can you make donkey kong's final smash just last the whole match?

lrn2DKfinalsmash

 

[Teronist09]

I'm still not sure what you are complaining about. We are doing nothing to d-tilt but replacing the existing mediocre followup options (occassional uair, side-B at low %s agaisnt stupid people) with really, really good ones. Every single Ganon main who has played with this for 5 minutes is excited about the new possibilities; in less than a minute Jekyll was using it for things I hadn't even thought of.

I'm just going to ask that you try it before complaining.

My problem is that the change completely redefines the moves' usage to initiating tech chasing, making him significantly more ground based and limiting his aerial game further.
How many Ganon mains would that be? I main Ganon and obviously I don't care for it.

I did try it before I posted, and I was as disappointed with the actuality of it as I was the idea. I understand full well how to apply it and why the change is there, but I have no interest in changing to fit around these changes that have been put in place to enforce heavy tech chasing into his game. I originaly asked whether or not you can put in chance to trip like most other dtilt moves in brawl because then at least you have both functions available and 2x more options.

 

[Thinkaman]

I really think this is a great idea. I'm a fan of regular brawl, so I appreciate the effort put in to keep the game as familiar as possible. It's not only because I main a low tier that this appeals to me, but also because, like most of us, I'm a fan of high level play. So I'm interested in having more variety in characters used in semi's and finals (instead of MK v MK, MK v Snake). I hope this gains some more momentum.

Now, to Link. I've heard a lot about Link being a top character in this version of brawl due primarily to his arrow buff. My concern is that, though this might help Link initially, in the long run opponents would become adept at avoiding it (which is not really that hard to avoid in the first place, especially for characters with good recovery). Second, Link is already an obvious target for gimps, but this will become a bigger problem if Link is a character that is actually good enough for players to learn the matchup. Even I, with Link's limited off stage game, can gimp experienced Link players well enough.

For this reason, I feel a buffed up-b (whether having SA frames or greater horizontal range or whatever) would be something that evens him out, even in the long run (but I wouldn't mind keeping the arrow XD ).

I persoanlly investigated and tested up-B changes, and none of them were of good quality. Link, like Olimar, just has a bad recovery. That's his weakness, and unlike Ike's mobility weakness, it is a blanket weakness that is not problematically polarizing. In other words, we can safely improve Link while leaving his weakness alone.

Arrows are a very, very big buff. They are no harder or easier to avoid than Link's other projectiles when the day is done; Legan was quickly adept at using them immediately whenever a person was grounded and started to roll. (Boomerang to arrow combo?)

I hope everyone plays with Link arrows some, since they really are a huge deal and frankly a ton of fun.

 

[Syde7]

One question I was wondering, it seems that a lot of characters get 'off-stage' buffs, which is a-ok by me. But, it seems that ROB seems to suffer from this inordinately. His game revolves around a solid projectile game, poking tilts, and the ability to gimp and stop from being gimped & spiked.

The fact that he can not attack immediately following his up+B is a bit of a hassle as it is, but the recovery and lack of off-stage options for many characters makes up for this to some degree. However with the other char's buffs, this weakness is exploited to the nth degree.

To remedy this, I would recommend a solid KO move (buff f-smash, or change something about the U-smash or... something) OR (and this is preferable) make it so he can attack immediately when using up+B.

To more concisely mention things, I would like to copy/paste a bit that HugS posted on our (the ROB) boards:

There are so many close calls to ROB being good, it's annoying.

Like if he could JUST attack immediately after up Bing.
Or if he could JUST not have so much after lag off a gyro.
Or if his usmash could JUSt have some horizontal hitboxes
Or if his nair could JUST start up a bit quicker
Or if his most useful aerials, fair and uair, could be the ones with no landing lag.

The developers went to some extreme lengths to make this character mediocre. If only they paid the same kind of attention to other characters. Like decreasing DDD's grab range if his chain grab is to be so good. Or not allowing MK to glide if his up B is to be so invulnerable....

Dumb.

Of course, you took out the CGs and nerfed the up+b of MK... so--- disregard those.

Again, I really like what you guys are doing, and if the suggestion doesn't fit in with your 'intention' as it were- then by all means don't use it. And, again- these were mentioned within the context of vBrawl, and so if for some reason they are remedied by *other* changes, then feel free to not even worry about them.

 

[Ich Bin Awesome]

I persoanlly investigated and tested up-B changes, and none of them were of good quality. Link, like Olimar, just has a bad recovery. That's his weakness, and unlike Ike's mobility weakness, it is a blanket weakness that is not problematically polarizing. In other words, we can safely improve Link while leaving his weakness alone.

Arrows are a very, very big buff. They are no harder or easier to avoid than Link's other projectiles when the day is done; Legan was quickly adept at using them immediately whenever a person was grounded and started to roll. (Boomerang to arrow combo?)

I hope everyone plays with Link arrows some, since they really are a huge deal and frankly a ton of fun.

OOooh, I see. I was only thinking of them in terms of off stage attacks. The arrow's rapid release and speed definitely works well on stage. Hmm, still, I wonder how well this maintains as players adjust, but I guess I'll just have to wait and see.

(p.s. don't give Kirby our arrows!)

 

[Thinkaman]

I'm not entirely sure what off-stage buffs you are talking about. Ike is the only characters who realyl gians any substantial off-stage ability, since he never wanted to be there before. Yoshi KIIINDA gains a bit off stage, but that's really a stretch.

Could you elaborate?