Balanced Brawl Public Preview *GENESIS UPDATE*

[MK26]

@browny
the fundamental flaw in your argument is that you arent realizing that sonic isnt as bad as the other characters that are getting game changers (as far as the tier list is concerned), and therefore he does not need as many or as important buffs as they are getting

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Could you do fair dair before? Do you know how much damage that is...

You could. Hell you can in Brawl+ due to hitstun and teching.

You don't understand egg roll. It cancels momentum. When you get sent offstage and would have died from the attack you can use an aerial to cancel hitstun and then eggroll to cancel ALL momentum. Yoshi will probably live the longest of all characters in the game now.

Your missing what I'm saying.

Love this one, seriously.
Egg roll also has HELLISH lag to get out of as far as I'm concerned.
If your using Egg roll to recover....good luck to you.
You just made a point where you are more vulnerable than ever so that you can refresh your DJ? If anyone knows that you'll try this, your dead without question.
Survivability? Eh naw.
Maybe the other yoshi's feel different, but to use this to recover feels so.... eh.

What I am saying is that it's not as great as you'd think.
When you GO IN to Egg roll there is time before you can go OUT of egg roll
At this moment your ability to be killed is very high.
In the best case scenario your to far for them to reach with any attack.
In the Worst case scenario they attack, and then granted they are able they go off the stage to go after you. If you cancel into Egg roll.
Your dead.
This definetly wont work against anyone with a good recovery.
Anyone with a powerful projectile too will hurt you.
Imagine this situation, Samus hits you off the stage and you go into egg roll.
Think of the delay.
Charge shot, your dead and she can do it.
Lucario can do it.
R.O.B can do it.
It sounds great but the lag's a *****.

It's not detrimental but I feel that the idea it greatly enhances to be false. I think it's situational, and if you try it in a situation vs a potent opponent, your dead.
You also LOSE height while in Egg roll (granted Double Jump fixes this somewhat, but you DO lose height).

You don't understand how big a buff the pummels is.

blah blah blah.

 

[Swordplay]

Is it possible to adjust the hitbox for Link's spike?

Yes, but in BB it wouldn't do anything because brawl has ASL (auto sweetspot ledges) You'd still never spike..

=============================================

@browny
the fundamental flaw in your argument is that you arent realizing that sonic isnt as bad as the other characters that are getting game changers (as far as the tier list is concerned), and therefore he does not need as many or as important buffs as they are getting

.........read better next time

These characters had some sort of fundamental flaw that held them back from ever being a viable character with balanced matchups. This doesn't mean they are worse than the above characters in standard Brawl; it just means they needed something fundamental addressed.

===============================================

Also. Still hoping you'll respond to my post on page 46 (Please Please Please)

 

[NintenJoe]

Your missing what I'm saying.
What I am saying is that it's not as great as you'd think.
When you GO IN to Egg roll there is time before you can go OUT of egg roll
At this moment your ability to be killed is very high.
In the best case scenario your to far for them to reach with any attack.
In the Worst case scenario they attack, and then granted they are able they go off the stage to go after you. If you cancel into Egg roll.
Your dead.
This definetly wont work against anyone with a good recovery.
Anyone with a powerful projectile too will hurt you.
Imagine this situation, Samus hits you off the stage and you go into egg roll.
Think of the delay.
Charge shot, your dead and she can do it.
Lucario can do it.
R.O.B can do it.
It sounds great but the lag's a *****.

It's not detrimental but I feel that the idea it greatly enhances to be false. I think it's situational, and if you try it in a situation vs a potent opponent, your dead.
You also LOSE height while in Egg roll (granted Double Jump fixes this somewhat, but you DO lose height).

You should actually try it out before you knock it. Fair is a controversial change that may be changed to a different move, but the egg roll is actually a really good change. It momentum cancels and allows Yoshi to like to rediculous percentages. The restoration it give on the double jump allows Yoshi to recover from almost anywhere. Opponents won't usually go that far out to punish the egg roll and they can't punish the SA of the double jump.

P.S. To those who still want jab locks in, I have a little bit of good news. Jab locks have been removed by allowing characters in the wobble animation to get up significantly faster than they would normally. Meaning that they get up quickly enough to utilize their invincibility in order to block the second jab of the jab lock. The good news is for characters like Lucas and Link, this still allows for a follow-up with a different move. Lucas' Dair Spike->Dtilt->Fsmash is still viable and a good way to kill. Link's boomerang locks also work, they just don't do as much damage as they would with a lock involved. It's a good medium IMO.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

OK, so some ZSS matchups as requested:

Falco: This is still really really bad, if not worse and I'm not sure how you would ever fix it. Even without chaingrabs (he had to be frame perfect to cg her anyway), he still hard counters ZSS in every possible situation. He wrecks her at long range because of the lasers and hard counters her mid-range spacing at short range. She would need some way to approach him guaranteed.

Fox: This is not good. Before, Fox had to play with the fear of getting dsmashed which made this pretty close to even, even if you could never land a dsmash (and you often wouldn't, because Fox had the tools to avoid it). Now, Fox has no fears. He can approach you without a care in the world and laser camp you from far away, making this roughly Falco lite.

Wolf: Same deal as Fox. We have no real tools to punish his rolls now, so we get wrecked by this guy.

MK: This match-ups is undoubtedly in ZSS' favor in Balanced Brawl. This might not mean much, I just wanted to say it. It feels good.

Pit: This feels a bit worse now... not that it was a good matchup before.

Summary: ZSS gets wrecked by long-range hitstun inducing projectiles because of her terrible weakness to targets that are below her. If you're really aiming for 40:60 across the board this'll have to be addressed somehow, I guess, but I don't know how you'd do it short of completely altering her dair. is that even possible? O_o

 

[Rykoshet]

ITT: People complain about why their characters suck.

.........read better next time

Look at the characters listed that got "game changers". Sonic is easily the least terrible of the ones in that group.

 

[ffdgh]

...haven't heard a thing about lucario so ill say something, force palm is more of a decent killer now lol

 

[JOE!]

Why doesnt bowser's Down B do the "stuck in ground" effect vs a grounded opponent?

I mean, its a 10,000lb turtlesaurus falling on you

 

[ffdgh]

^.....ok i just pictured that and it could be more of a hindrance than a gain
gain is that it would ground and then side smash yes but
the hindrance is that he would lose a great vertical killer at higher percents



but what do i know lol, im not a bowser main

 

[JOE!]

I get people alot more in the air with it for a kill, its easily shielded if teh opponent is on the ground, and not slapped up by a point-blank activation

 

[ffdgh]

as far as it goes, can we agree to make it a shield eater like marth's side b?
heck add that to more of his moves XD

 

[adumbrodeus]

as far as it goes, can we agree to make it a shield eater like marth's side b?
heck add that to more of his moves XD

Unfortunately, they don't know how to increase shield damage.

 

[ffdgh]

hmm its only a matter of time untill it surfaces

 

[hankydysplasia]

The Ike and Luigi changes are very natural; they really aren't that big of a violation of anything. Also, yeah, we don't really plan our responses here out so we might occasionally goof up in what we say. If anything is pressing, we'll confer together and give a more solid "official" response.

Also, we are aware that not every matchup can be 50-50 (if such a thing is even desirable). However, we feel that, less a few game changers which are really extraordinarily tame to have such a title (they change a major part of those characters' games or add extremely significant new options, but even with them, none of the characters really "feel" that different), we can get everyone pretty close to evenly balanced. My personal point at which I could be really satisfied would be the point at which every character could, used ALONE (not with secondaries), win a major tournament (90+ people). Due to a limit of the number of top players not every character might actually do it, but character should not be a wholly preventive factor. That would definitely still leave room for character superiority; it just means being the game's worst character and being a bad character don't have to be the same thing, more like "overall still virtuous but just in a lesser way than some others".

Balance doesn't declare itself anyway, and we figure we'll know we have something good when no one can any longer agree on a tier list. We believe it to be possible, and we believe our initial release to have been true to our general principles of not changing the core principles of Brawl. There is some inevitable change in the sense that "if you change things, things will be different". However, I feel as though we have made a quality product without violating our principles, and I reject as false the dichotomy between balance and our principles.

As per general matchup ratios, my ideal would be everything in the range of 60-40 to 40-60. That's a lot of wiggle room, and given that we expect a web of matchups and not just "good character tends to go 60-40 while bad character goes 40-60", it could even be healthiest in the end.

I'm with you.
I really hope a lot of the celebrities of smash join in and pick us someone more obscure.

As you saw from my other post, I have good video recording equipment and would be happy to help out in that way.

 

[ReesesPieces67]

Is it possible to adjust the hitbox for Link's spike?

thatd be sweet

 

[Shell]

That would violate the principles of this project.

 

[ffdgh]

it would be great if u could make link's up b like toon links as it doesn't seem logical after blocking it once it doesn't hit you even tho he's still spinning XD

idk if that would screw up his flow

hmm but that screws with the hit boxes tho so it may be not possible

 

[Rykoshet]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2ud4NQdjnw

D3 is so awesome.

 

[ffdgh]

cool new vids. ill check them out now
and imo the new throw is great lol as i can go into a Ftilt, Dtilt, or down smash

edit, LOL he threw then swallowed, Priceless XD

 

[Yingyay]

honestly tho.......why is dedede's upthrow like that? It kinda doesnt make sense.

 

[xDD-Master]

Well... as much as I like the idea of balancing, I would find it better if any character would get buffs (and some get nerfs) or stay complete the same as they are in vBrawl. But giving a character only nerfs is bad thing. See how many CFs / Ganons / Peach / Jiggs quit Brawl shortly after the release because there was nothing the could be happy about their "new" mains.

I say this in regard of myself since for me as a Snake mainer there is no real zest to play BBrawl because my character has only nerfs and nothing new. I really love killing people with Utilt and it was my favorite move in Brawl since the beginning because of it's so cool and funny disjointed hitboxes, but I can understand how unfair this move is, so it would be OK if there is a "relatively" big nerf (Uptilt) and therefore a small buff (Fair - A not so often used move).

For example making Snakes F-Air ground people on the ground would be pretty cool, not sure of usefullness since his Fair has ending lag, but I think this would be at least a very small buff. Or it should spike at every hitbox.

Otherwise I would prefer to try the new Ganondorf or DDD. Or playing vBrawl instead...

To make this project a success it is important to make every character a new experience of play with small or bigger changes.

This only my opinion and I hope you understand me.

The only thing I can be (semi-)happy about are the chaingrabs, but they only affect 3 of my 35 match-ups.

 

[adumbrodeus]

honestly tho.......why is dedede's upthrow like that? It kinda doesnt make sense.

Coding limitations, down-throw and up-throw are linked... somehow.

 

[ffdgh]

umm the snake u tilt didn't get that serious of a nerf >_> it kills in the 120s now. is that too much now?

 

[Rykoshet]

Well... as much as I like the idea of balancing, I would find it better if any character would get buffs (and some get nerfs) or stay complete the same as they are in vBrawl. But giving a character only nerfs is bad thing. See how many CFs / Ganons / Peach / Jiggs quit Brawl shortly after the release because there was nothing the could be happy about their "new" mains.

I say this in regard of myself since for me as a Snake mainer there is no real zest to play BBrawl because my character has only nerfs and nothing new. I really love killing people with Utilt and it was my favorite move in Brawl since the beginning because of it's so cool and funny disjointed hitboxes, but I can understand how unfair this move is, so it would be OK if there is a "relatively" big nerf (Uptilt) and therefore a small buff (Fair - A not so often used move).

For example making Snakes F-Air ground people on the ground would be pretty cool, not sure of usefullness since his Fair has ending lag, but I think this would be at least a very small buff. Or it should spike at every hitbox.

Otherwise I would prefer to try the new Ganondorf or DDD. Or playing vBrawl instead...

To make this project a success it is important to make every character a new experience of play with small or bigger changes.

This only my opinion and I hope you understand me.

The only thing I can be (semi-)happy about are the chaingrabs, but they only affect 3 of my 35 match-ups.

You have to think of reasonability. Snake's up tilt is not reasonable in vbrawl (though I do think the nerf is too drastic, I wasn't exaggerating when I said that it needs to put tlink at around 175 to kill him reliably, I definitely put him at 150 with it fresh multiple times and he didnt come close to dying), it stood to reason that if you're not going to affect his widely disjointed hitboxes that it did need to be pulled back.

 

[Epic Kovumon]

It took me to at least 200% to kill a lvl 9 DK on Final Destination with Snake's u-tilt.

 

[ffdgh]

i tested toon link in training for fun yesterday
a fresh kills at 123
a sour fresh kills at 146

 

[TLMSheikant]

I want a vid of TL's new upB ryko *-* since I cant test it :/. Also, why did the mid tiers get only very minor and almost useless buffs to situational moves lol. Like TL's upB, zero suit's buffs and peach's. I dont think these minor buffs ake them as good as diddy :/.

 

[Gea]

That's without DI though >.>

Not that I think Snake lacks any killing power without utilt, lol.

 

[DanGR]

I like this. I'd like to know if it's possible to fix Olimar's random pikmin desynchs, (random tether fails->death) but really. This is cool.

 

[xDD-Master]

umm the snake u tilt didn't get that serious of a nerf >_> it kills in the 120s now. is that too much now?

Yes it is.

A well-placed up-tilt at low % is the essence of snake's killing options. Yes he has others, but Ftilt is often decayed because of it's function as a damage builder. And his aerials are too slow to be a good killer. FSmash is too slow and upsmash is not sooo strong. So there stays Jab which is also nerffed and dtilt, which could be the new uptilt (Not soooo freakin hitboxes like uptilt)

Just see watch some vids of Ally, 2/3 of his kills are up-tilts.

 

[ffdgh]

i like the buffs for peach, the club,racket and frying pan can actually kill at decent percents. tho peach bomber buffs seems a bit useless, it makes a greater edge guard now but on the stage tho, its can still leave uopen with its lag


lol not a snake person so i wont debate much but her got MANY back up killers in his arsenal

 

[ReesesPieces67]

That would violate the principles of this project.

how is that

 

[Gea]

Yes it is.

A well-placed up-tilt at low % is the essence of snake's killing options. Yes he has others, but Ftilt is often decayed because of it's function as a damage builder. And his aerials are too slow to be a good killer. FSmash is too slow and upsmash is not sooo strong. So there stays Jab which is also nerffed and dtilt, which could be the new uptilt (Not soooo freakin hitboxes like uptilt)

Just see watch some vids of Ally, 2/3 of his kills are up-tilts.

Metaknight loves shuttle gimping and dsmash kills... that doesn't mean Metaknight can't kill now, lol. He still has Nair, dair, and spaced fsmashes.

Snake has C4, ftilt, ALL OF HIS AERIALS (even if they are slow bair is NOT that slow to come out) and he can still hardcore camp to wrack up damage while retaining a mega heavy weight. How low do you think this nerf honestly puts him?

 

[xDD-Master]

Metaknight loves shuttle gimping and dsmash kills... that doesn't mean Metaknight can't kill now, lol. He still has Nair, dair, and spaced fsmashes.

Snake has C4, ftilt, ALL OF HIS AERIALS (even if they are slow bair is NOT that slow to come out) and he can still hardcore camp to wrack up damage while retaining a mega heavy weight. How low do you think this nerf honestly puts him?

lol not a snake person so i wont debate much but her got MANY back up killers in his arsenal

Yeah he has many strong moves but so does Ganondorf and he is nevertheless garbage.

Snakes move are definitely better then ganons, no discussion, but anyway he has no real good finishers other than Uptilt >>>>>>> Jab, Ftilt (Nearly fresh), Bair & Nair, (Well-placed), C4 >>> Everything else. It's still better then what the most other characters have, yeah, but by looking at snake at himself more than 50% of his kills rely on Uptilt. And taking this is like taking Marths Fair. But like I said I understand that the move is overpowered, so it would be really understandable to nerf it (Big Nerf) and so he should get a small buff.

And my main point was the new feeling of gaming this varition of brawl has to bring to you to bind you at the game.

 

[ffdgh]

how is that

-No changes to physics
-No changes to character movement
-No changes to hitbox size
-Very few changes to timing (attack startup or ending)
-No changes to established rules
-No frozen stages

lol it says that on front page

 

[Turbo Ether]

Metaknight loves shuttle gimping and dsmash kills... that doesn't mean Metaknight can't kill now, lol. He still has Nair, dair, and spaced fsmashes.

Snake has C4, ftilt, ALL OF HIS AERIALS (even if they are slow bair is NOT that slow to come out) and he can still hardcore camp to wrack up damage while retaining a mega heavy weight. How low do you think this nerf honestly puts him?

Snake literally has one reliable kill move in vbrawl, and it's uptilt, so it being nerfed is very noticeable. However, it's hard to say how badly the nerf throws him off, relative to the changes other characters also received.

 

[ReesesPieces67]

o i c. but didnt they change the hitbox to yoshis fair

 

[Epic Kovumon]

You know what buff Snake needs? Being able to up-b again after being grabbed on the ledge. Or at least get the 2nd jump back.

 

[MysticKenji]

I want a vid of TL's new upB ryko *-* since I cant test it :/.

14% uncharged
23% fully charged
Harder to SDI

 

[Thinkaman]

My complaint is this.

a 1% damage increase on 2 attacks that are very rarely used does not add up a lot more than normal. like i said before, You would be lucky to find more than 1 dtilt or dair hitting per stock. thats a whopping 3% buff he gets from those. uair and DA are good they will actually get use. But when i look at every other character who recieved buffs its clear they are going to get a massive boost in % dealt per stock from a whole varitety of common attacks, far more than the few sonic has (uair/DA)

the only useful damage buff sonic has received is his uair (which would be better spent on uair 1 imo) and DA. the others are negligible. there is no way Sonic can be classified as having 'major buffs' when you look at how much other characters had USEFUL moves buffed by a reasonable amount. you could buff dair by +5 it wouldnt make it any more useful than it is already

Seriously... I think just swapping the +2 and +1 buff from dair to uair (1) would be perfect. it would at least have a meaningful effect to bring his buffs in the same order as all the characters around and below him. and 9% on the uair really doesnt do it justice, its already weak enough a +2 to it still would leave it as one of the weaker uairs in the game...

I dont think the tiers should be changed in this game, but rather the gap between the tiers to be a lot smaller.
thats why I dont think there should be any nerfs, especially with all the buffs the other characters are getting

And I noticed that you didnt really look into the gameplay of every characters, for example the sonic main above proved how you didnt look at how sonic is played at a high level, and thus you gave him worthless buffs (comparatively)

The issue here is that you are assume we intended buffs to moves like Sonic d-tilt or dair to be a big deal. We aren't clueless, and we considered these very small buffs. Making Sonic's uair stronger is already a little shady, since he can combo into it so well, asking for it to be even better is kinda silly.

Every character above Sonic on the tier list got less. (Not that we focused on the tier list at all, especially since we started this well before v3.0 came out... but still a natural observation.) Sonic is firmly mid-tier, and got buffs that were rather substantial for a mid-tier character.

I hope we are able to get more hands-on feedback from Sonic players in the future, so that the polished version does him justice.

I'll reply to everyone else, including the Yoshi questions, in a second.