Balanced Brawl Public Preview *GENESIS UPDATE*

[Rohins]

This project looks great. I haven't had a chance to test it, just looked over the changed on the first post. I do have on recommendation with Samus. I see you added more damage to her bomb. While this is good, it doesn't take away from the inherent disadvantages of dropping bombs and their lack of use.

I think a good change would be having the bombs explode on contact earlier or allowing her to use moves when she bounces off an explosion. I'm not sure how many lines of code that would be but I think it would give her a good close range move that she is lacking.

 

[ffdgh]

usually the grenades,c4/3 lol, and his naniki set ups do the job nicely

 

[Chaco]

I love how the only people who are saying Yoshi's fair is good, is people who do not play him. People who actually understand Yoshi's unique play style and the reason we do not use Fair will in turn understand that this buff is not needed. In all honesty, I don't even know why this was thought to be a good idea. His Fair is one of the worst aerials in the game. It's really just not worth the time spent on it. I'd really like come alternatives to this buff, because I don't think a single Yoshi main likes it. I'm not trying to be rude, but when it's unanimous that no one likes it. That's a problem.

AA, when you have time over the next few days. I'd like to talk to you on AIM about something different on Yoshi. Trying to make something near impractical practical. But I don't really wanna bring it up here because people get there panties in a knot.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Ok, in vbrawl, against a Mario dummy on FD in training mode, Mario dies from Snake's uptilt at 102%. In Bbrawl, Mario dies at 127%. With DI even higher. Uptilt doesn't kill Dedede until 157%, and that's without DI. My early impression is that the move was a bit overnerfed.

 

[jalued]

This project looks great. I haven't had a chance to test it, just looked over the changed on the first post. I do have on recommendation with Samus. I see you added more damage to her bomb. While this is good, it doesn't take away from the inherent disadvantages of dropping bombs and their lack of use.

I think a good change would be having the bombs explode on contact earlier or allowing her to use moves when she bounces off an explosion. I'm not sure how many lines of code that would be but I think it would give her a good close range move that she is lacking.

there still isnt a code for her bombs exploding on contact, they are still working on it

 

[Genosync]

I've actually addressed why Ike (and Luigi) is an exception many times in this thread.

The problem with Ike's weakness in particular is that it is polarizing. It isn't a big deal at all in some matchups, but in others his lack of mobility and safe approach means that campy play, especially with projectiles, can really shut him down. It would be impossible to buff Ike enough to be fair in these matchups without ruining his other ones that are less effected by the weakness. (Make f-smash kill at 0%? Double the damage on jab?)

For this reason, Ike is a case where we are forced to address weakness if we want the character to be reasonably balanced. For other characters who do not have such decisive attributes, we can stick to buffing strengths or unused parts of their moveset.

To take this from a few pages earlier, I'm going to make the statement that Ike doesn't need a single other buff at this time.

Quick Draw takes care of so many terrible, awful weaknesses that it's ridiculous.

 

[Sgt. Baker]

Oh my, I think I may actually use this. Ganon is unbelieveable now haha

 

[Epic Kovumon]

Oh my, I think I may actually use this. Ganon is unbelieveable now haha

Side-b>dtilt>neutral-a

Win.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Oh my, I think I may actually use this. Ganon is unbelieveable now haha

Not unbelievable, but a lot better. Chainchoking actually seems practical now.

 

[xDD-Master]

Snake literally has one reliable kill move in vbrawl, and it's uptilt, so it being nerfed is very noticeable. However, it's hard to say how badly the nerf throws him off, relative to the changes other characters also received.

A Guy that understands me Snake ftw :D

I think you have to be Snake Main to realize how important Uptilt is for him and thats it's more than a just a overpowered move and how much this nerfs him.

The only half-way fair & easy thing I could think of is a Dtilt buff, the easiest thing would be to just exchange damage & knockback statistics of Dtilt&Uptilt. Dtilt has a smaller and more realistic hit box.

I wish I could do my own Snake and I would give my best to make him fair, fun, cool, good and not overpowered. But I dont have the options to do that Or I just dont know how if it's only code-based changes with values what I can find here on SWF...

Spoiler

Btw his taunts also need very very big buffs XDDD (This would be too epic). jk ^^

Metaknight loves shuttle gimping and dsmash kills... that doesn't mean Metaknight can't kill now, lol. He still has Nair, dair, and spaced fsmashes.

Snake has C4, ftilt, ALL OF HIS AERIALS (even if they are slow bair is NOT that slow to come out) and he can still hardcore camp to wrack up damage while retaining a mega heavy weight. How low do you think this nerf honestly puts him?

kill moves of M2K vs. Ally at Apex:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7q2DdBNajvo match 1
Snake: Uptilt, Uptilt, Granade
MK: Nair (OK Self-Destruct :S), Nair

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99AVtgL-CiQ match 2
Snake: Bair, Down-Smash
MK: Up-Air, Up-Air, Up-Air

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhZLWgjUK_8 match 3
Snake: Uptilt, Fair, UpTilt
MK: Up-B, SD by Ally

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NP-U-Ybmp8 match 4
Snake: Fair, Up-Air, Down-B
MK: Up-B

Ally used 4 of 10 times Uptilt to kill (+ low %).

M2K used Up-B 2 of 8 times and DSmash 0 of 8 times to kill Ally.

And he "only" killed him 40% of time with UpTilt because M2K is sooo good at spacing. Dont know if Ally would have won (Especially first match) with a worse uptilt compared to MKs worse moves. Ally and M2K should just make a Bo5 in BBrawl xD

Ok, in vbrawl, against a Mario dummy on FD in training mode, Mario dies from Snake's uptilt at 102%. In Bbrawl, Mario dies at 127%. With DI even higher. Uptilt doesn't kill Dedede until 157%, and that's without DI. My early impression is that the move was a bit overnerfed.

>______<

You know what buff Snake needs? Being able to up-b again after being grabbed on the ledge. Or at least get the 2nd jump back.

LEAVE SNAKEY ALONE !!!!!!!11!!!11!!11!!11!oneone... >_<

 

[ffdgh]

let there be box buffs XD
make it a easter egg by making it a OHKO

and kinda de nerf his u tile a bit

 

[Watchful_Eye]

"M2K used Up-B 2 of 8 times and DSmash 0 of 8 times to kill Ally.

And he "only" killed him 40% of time with UpTilt because M2K is sooo good at spacing. Dont know if Ally would have won (Especially first match) with a worse uptilt compared to MKs worse moves. Ally and M2K should just make a Bo5 in BBrawl xD"

You cant say that so generally. Snakes Up-Tilt is a very good kill move against MK, because MK is so light and has such a good recovery - Snake relies more on this move against MK as against other characters, I think.

Maybe the MK:Snake Matchup will turn into MKs favour after these changes, but that Matchup does not reflect the overall game balance.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Well... as much as I like the idea of balancing, I would find it better if any character would get buffs (and some get nerfs) or stay complete the same as they are in vBrawl. But giving a character only nerfs is bad thing. See how many CFs / Ganons / Peach / Jiggs quit Brawl shortly after the release because there was nothing the could be happy about their "new" mains.

I say this in regard of myself since for me as a Snake mainer there is no real zest to play BBrawl because my character has only nerfs and nothing new. I really love killing people with Utilt and it was my favorite move in Brawl since the beginning because of it's so cool and funny disjointed hitboxes, but I can understand how unfair this move is, so it would be OK if there is a "relatively" big nerf (Uptilt) and therefore a small buff (Fair - A not so often used move).

For example making Snakes F-Air ground people on the ground would be pretty cool, not sure of usefullness since his Fair has ending lag, but I think this would be at least a very small buff. Or it should spike at every hitbox.

Otherwise I would prefer to try the new Ganondorf or DDD. Or playing vBrawl instead...

To make this project a success it is important to make every character a new experience of play with small or bigger changes.

This only my opinion and I hope you understand me.

The only thing I can be (semi-)happy about are the chaingrabs, but they only affect 3 of my 35 match-ups.

Although I disagree, I understand where this guy is coming from. Plus, seeing as the pros mostly play MK, Snake, or the like who got nothing but nerfed, we have a few issues here... >.<

 

[Rykoshet]

I wouldnt mind snake's dtilt being buffed in exchange for keeping up tilt as it is. It's pretty ridiculous just how piss poor it is when you account for DI and momentum canceling, and I already didnt use up tilt as much as one thinks a snake should.

 

[JOE!]

so...what im seeing here is:

"wah, the broken/best chars got put down a notch!'
"wah, the worst chars/broken (in a bad way) chars didnt get buffed enough!"

 

[ffdgh]

lol sums it up
its a preview people, the time for your input is now

 

[Bouse]

Okay, just played some BBrawl last night and a few things:
*Red stuff is the cliff notes.

Zero Suit Samus:

If you can reduce the start-up of the third jab, or increase the knockback and damage of the second jab so that it makes the third no longer needed, that would be best. It would give her a much more viable ground game and round her out as a character.

Making her Ftilt trip more often might actually be a decent idea, since most Dtilts are designed to do that anyway but do it with more frequency than her Ftilt.

Gotta be honest that the Fsmash change didn't do anything for her. Any ZSS main knows that we only used Fsmash as a mindgame, because it was such a godawful move. If anything it's barely mediocre now, which is nice.

All in all, the jab change would balance her out as a character instead of changing something that didn't matter in the first place. Side+B is a generally better move and 9.8 times out of 10 far more effective.

Link:

I'm lovin' Link in this setup, however I have one major change that would alter the gameplay of Link dramatically.

Change the knockback so it's not as ridiculous on the Up+B. An increase was needed, but I think you overdid it. However, this change is dependent on another one which is actually dependent on whether you can add SA frames. To the initial 5-8 frames of his Up+B when the hitbox comes out give him Super Armor frames. This way you don't need to make it truck people super ******** because it'd actually be a mindgame similar to Ike's Eruption/Wario's Fsmash and can be used for a solid KO and edgeguard while not making it an 110% midstage KO. Also, it would fix the problem with his abysmal recovery.

Snake:

Give him back some knockback on his Utilt, 120% is a good enough point for a midweight to die. You killed his KO potential, maybe make it so it degenerates faster so that it can't be done 2-3 times in a row with no success and is only used for a guaranteed KO at higher %'s.

Swimming:

Change the modifiers by about a 10-11% increase in survivability at the low end, and probably 15-20% at the high end. You made it so it's a stage hazard now, and not a tech chase KO like it used to be. It significantly altered the way that water works on stages and screws over characters who just suck at getting out of water like poor ol' Fatass McGanonpants.



All in all kudos! This was a fun new way to play Brawl that I actually enjoyed, instead of Brawl+ which I feel changed too many fundamental things in the game. Personally I just think that at a certain point you got too focused on making characters worse and overdid it a bit, i.e. nerfing Snakes long glorious legs but an excellent beta version to say the least .

Hope to see this project develop into something awesome.

 

[xDD-Master]

You cant say that so generally. Snakes Up-Tilt is a very good kill move against MK, because MK is so light and has such a good recovery - Snake relies more on this move against MK as against other characters, I think.

Maybe the MK:Snake Matchup will turn into MKs favour after these changes, but that Matchup does not reflect the overall game balance.

Yeah it's true that UpTilt is very effective vs. light charas, but Snake uses them anyway vs. heavies.

Ally vs. Lain (DDD) at Apex

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITWR4zD6NuY 1
1 Uptilt out of 3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIRHfssM0TM 2
0 Uptilt-kills

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_FXrguiLxU 3
1 Uptilt out of 3

Yep only 2 out of 9 but still at "low" %.

But it's still a Snakes most important kill-move.

 

[Shell]

You can't add SA to anything or give a move custom decay (for the time being, at least).

Perhaps it would be best for the OP to include what is and isn't possible so that you can avoid wasting suggestions.

 

[Retro Gaming]

When a character like Marth or Charizard auto-sweetspots the ledge with their UpB and then jumps up from the ledge and lands on the stage, they'll suffer their standard fall-special lag. Did you guys intentionally leave this in? Because that's one of the first things I would have taken out.

 

[Shell]

We've fixed it in Brawl+, so it must be a purposeful decision not to include the code.

 

[Thinkaman]

Okay sooo, more Yoshi time. I'm on my phone so this will be brief. This is going to be solely directed at his new fair. I'm still not convinced at all with this. Honestly the only time I personally use a stage Fair is upon recovering, and only thennif they are standing to close and don't expect it. Which brings the point: When this occurs at a moderate high percent I use their inability to regain movement yet for a Uair snag. I like this MUCH better than the new effect. Upon comparison, it beats it badly. At lower percents you can pivot grab them and follow up. If anything, I feel Ganon's Dair properties added to the fair would be much better, this way a stage hit Fair can kill on it's own. Just speculation though.

I think you make a very good point about their being 3 catagories of character improvement. However, the problem I am having with the change to Yoshis Fair is that it simply does does offer much, if any, improvement to Yoshi as a character.
Whilst the grouding property could be slightly more of an incentive to try with it, what I think you don't understand about the Fair is that adding the grouding property is mostly futile on account of how unrealistic it is to actually land the attack against a skilled opponant.
The Fair is just a very poor move and has no real place in Yoshis playstyle because of this, the reason for it being a poor move is solely the difficulty in hitting with it, even with perfect spacing. If you wanted to make the Fair a more viable move that actually has some worth within Yoshis playstyle, giving it a grounding effect is completely the wrong way of going about it. Even when you do hit with it, the grounding part is not gauranteed.
As long as the other properties of the Fair remain as they are, it simply cannot be a particuarly useful move.
I appreciate that you are trying to offer more options to Yoshi instead of just buffing what he already has, but in order to improve the Fair you will need to modify it to eliminate or at least limit the crippling flaws it actually has.

I hope to play as bigger role in this project as I can, this what I have waited for since the beggining of Brawl and I will do all I can to support it and help it to grow. When Panda made that thread on this subject all that time ago, my hopes for this becoming a reality were boosted but I was bitterly disapointed when Brawl+ proved to be an entirely different and very Melee-inspired game and I am exstatic to finally see the project take shape.



I understand your reasoning for not wanting to change Yoshis shield, I would also agree that it is a very character defining attribute.
But I don't think you reckognize the magnitude of this flaw with Yoshi. It is his single biggest weakness and hounestly I don't see that you could make compensate for it in other areas without signifcantly more improvement.
I'm sure most Yoshis would be quite happy for the weakness just to be made less of a problem, there is no reason why you cannot preserved the weaknesses with Yoshis shield for character identity but just make it a less crippling character flaw.
I think the importance of maintaining a single aspect of a feature that helps to further distinguish a character that is already probably the most unique in the game, is lesser than that of increasing the characters viability in the most effective way possible.
If you were to make changes to Yoshis shield to make a less limiting factor, I don't feel that it would change the way Yoshi is played in a very noticable way at all. Good Yoshis already make use of the shield reguarly simply because they must, spotdodging is not a suitable replacement for a shield as the two mechanics are completely different in their usage.



As mentioned earlier, I will do my upmost to support, promote and contribute to this project. This really is a dream come true for me, and I'm sure many other low-tier mains. I can only hope that the other Yoshi mains can offer you the same kind of support.
I am quite an influential member of the UK tournament scene so I will be doing as much as I can to promote it there and try to gain support and widespread knowlegde of this project.
I will continue to playtest and offer my feedback on Yoshi.

Played around with Yoshi some to see the changes.


This isn't a game changer.
Seriously.
This doesn't correct any issues with the move either.
It was already possible to F-air someone (in the air) to the floor, and granted the **** up their tech/AD or your close enough to them...you may get in another hit.
This just means if you do hit them you do get that other hit.
Still not a game changer.
The move is so....lame, that this doesn't matter at all, I use F-air a lot in my game already...probably a bad habit since it's not a good move, and this buff...while a buff....doesn't change much.
I hit them, wow now free F-smash, D-smash.
Thats not new, I've done that before with the previous. Just it wasn't guaranteed.
Think Ganondorf and following up with flame choke (normal brawl), a follow up (well he does on quite a few characters, but its like frame perfect ****) wasn't guaranteed.
Guaranteeing it now though doesn't make this move so much more favourable, because the risk is still absurd because of the hellish range, and the time before the sweetspot frames.

If anything you buffed the move, but didn't take care of its flaws. So it's still a poor move just because none of it's flaw's have been corrected, and the buff is not great enough to make up for those.
Instead the buff while nice, isn't great enough to make the average person want to use this anymore than usual. It's relatively slow, it's poor ranged, what more needs to be said. You buffed the sweetspot....big deal the sweetspot was already nice when it hit, hitting the sweetspot is already difficult due to it's flaws.

In my personal opinion utilt does not exactly need anything that will hasten it's growth.
It should be used as a juggle move, not for sending them away. +1 buff only mean's the knockback will increase that much better than vbrawl.

Love this one, seriously.

Fine if a little....eh. You made the move a bit safer to use, but I don't exactly recall safety being the issue with it, and it's not going to be a kill more so....

Egg roll also has HELLISH lag to get out of as far as I'm concerned.
If your using Egg roll to recover....good luck to you.
You just made a point where you are more vulnerable than ever so that you can refresh your DJ? If anyone knows that you'll try this, your dead without question.
Survivability? Eh naw.
Maybe the other yoshi's feel different, but to use this to recover feels so.... eh.
If Egg roll had decent horizontal momentum in the air.... sure hell ya, still risky because it's so vulnerable when entering, and leaving the egg but...
Anyways just to tl;dr
Getting in and out of egg roll is SLOW.
While IN egg roll yoshi is EXTREMELY vulnerable, something he isn't normally.

I feel you handled F-air wrongly, and the u-tilt buff was unecessary. Sure it does more damage but I dont care because it only had one purpose, and unless I can chainwith it, it's not seeing more use than a u-air followup.

Could you do fair dair before? Do you know how much damage that is...

You don't understand egg roll. It cancels momentum. When you get sent offstage and would have died from the attack you can use an aerial to cancel hitstun and then eggroll to cancel ALL momentum. Yoshi will probably live the longest of all characters in the game now.

You don't understand how big a buff the pummels is.

You could. Hell you can in Brawl+ due to hitstun and teching.

Your missing what I'm saying.
[/COLOR]
What I am saying is that it's not as great as you'd think.
When you GO IN to Egg roll there is time before you can go OUT of egg roll
At this moment your ability to be killed is very high.
In the best case scenario your to far for them to reach with any attack.
In the Worst case scenario they attack, and then granted they are able they go off the stage to go after you. If you cancel into Egg roll.
Your dead.
This definetly wont work against anyone with a good recovery.
Anyone with a powerful projectile too will hurt you.
Imagine this situation, Samus hits you off the stage and you go into egg roll.
Think of the delay.
Charge shot, your dead and she can do it.
Lucario can do it.
R.O.B can do it.
It sounds great but the lag's a *****.

It's not detrimental but I feel that the idea it greatly enhances to be false. I think it's situational, and if you try it in a situation vs a potent opponent, your dead.
You also LOSE height while in Egg roll (granted Double Jump fixes this somewhat, but you DO lose height).

blah blah blah.

You should actually try it out before you knock it. Fair is a controversial change that may be changed to a different move, but the egg roll is actually a really good change. It momentum cancels and allows Yoshi to like to rediculous percentages. The restoration it give on the double jump allows Yoshi to recover from almost anywhere. Opponents won't usually go that far out to punish the egg roll and they can't punish the SA of the double jump.

Alright, first I have got to say thanks for the discussion. This is exactly what we want.

I'm going to address Egg Roll first. Egg Roll can now be used like bucket-breaking; Yoshi immediately does it to survive at higher levels of damage, even if he was hit out of double jump. Few characters can react fast enough in any way to hit Yoshi during this; Pit and ROB are probably the only ones period. Play with it and you will see that this is legitimately useful.

Pummel is a non-trivial buff. Yoshi's pivot grab is so good that this can easily mean +8-12% on some stocks. That's a pretty nice increase for one change.

Daisho pointed out everything I was going to say about fair. It isn't the biggest deal in the world, but it is a legitimate help that I hope people paly with more and investigate fully. Our Our group testers tend to like it after they warm up to it. (And it gets them a few dairs or f-smashes...)

P.S. To those who still want jab locks in, I have a little bit of good news. Jab locks have been removed by allowing characters in the wobble animation to get up significantly faster than they would normally. Meaning that they get up quickly enough to utilize their invincibility in order to block the second jab of the jab lock. The good news is for characters like Lucas and Link, this still allows for a follow-up with a different move. Lucas' Dair Spike->Dtilt->Fsmash is still viable and a good way to kill. Link's boomerang locks also work, they just don't do as much damage as they would with a lock involved. It's a good medium IMO.

Thanks, this is good input.

OK, so some ZSS matchups as requested:

Falco: This is still really really bad, if not worse and I'm not sure how you would ever fix it. Even without chaingrabs (he had to be frame perfect to cg her anyway), he still hard counters ZSS in every possible situation. He wrecks her at long range because of the lasers and hard counters her mid-range spacing at short range. She would need some way to approach him guaranteed.

Fox: This is not good. Before, Fox had to play with the fear of getting dsmashed which made this pretty close to even, even if you could never land a dsmash (and you often wouldn't, because Fox had the tools to avoid it). Now, Fox has no fears. He can approach you without a care in the world and laser camp you from far away, making this roughly Falco lite.

Wolf: Same deal as Fox. We have no real tools to punish his rolls now, so we get wrecked by this guy.

MK: This match-ups is undoubtedly in ZSS' favor in Balanced Brawl. This might not mean much, I just wanted to say it. It feels good.

Pit: This feels a bit worse now... not that it was a good matchup before.

Summary: ZSS gets wrecked by long-range hitstun inducing projectiles because of her terrible weakness to targets that are below her. If you're really aiming for 40:60 across the board this'll have to be addressed somehow, I guess, but I don't know how you'd do it short of completely altering her dair. is that even possible? O_o

Thanks for the feedback, this is exactly what we are looking for. All buffs in this project are primarily intended to target worst matchups specifically.

...haven't heard a thing about lucario so ill say something, force palm is more of a decent killer now lol

Don't get me wrong, the FP buff is not really a big deal (or intended to be). However, i have seen testers kill with it close to the edge, where it wouldn't have before. (BEAM SHOTGUN!)

honestly tho.......why is dedede's upthrow like that? It kinda doesnt make sense.

Coding limitations, down-throw and up-throw are linked... somehow.

Both share the same hitbox for htittign third parties away, which is how the hack to change them worked. I'm going to make a big post about DDD's "new spike" in a bit.

Well... as much as I like the idea of balancing, I would find it better if any character would get buffs (and some get nerfs) or stay complete the same as they are in vBrawl. But giving a character only nerfs is bad thing. See how many CFs / Ganons / Peach / Jiggs quit Brawl shortly after the release because there was nothing the could be happy about their "new" mains.

I say this in regard of myself since for me as a Snake mainer there is no real zest to play BBrawl because my character has only nerfs and nothing new. I really love killing people with Utilt and it was my favorite move in Brawl since the beginning because of it's so cool and funny disjointed hitboxes, but I can understand how unfair this move is, so it would be OK if there is a "relatively" big nerf (Uptilt) and therefore a small buff (Fair - A not so often used move).

For example making Snakes F-Air ground people on the ground would be pretty cool, not sure of usefullness since his Fair has ending lag, but I think this would be at least a very small buff. Or it should spike at every hitbox.

Otherwise I would prefer to try the new Ganondorf or DDD. Or playing vBrawl instead...

To make this project a success it is important to make every character a new experience of play with small or bigger changes.

This only my opinion and I hope you understand me.

The only thing I can be (semi-)happy about are the chaingrabs, but they only affect 3 of my 35 match-ups.

I understand completely, thanks for voicing your thoughts in a civil and well-written manner.

I am not opposed at all to buffing the top characters in some way. For example, I always thought it would be cool if Snake's d-smash was more powerful, since it is seldom a practical move to make use of.

However, we need to see where these top characters stand in the metagame to decide what to do with them; we need to make sure their buffs are what they need; for example, let's say we discover that Ivysaur is now a 70:30 matchup for snake, just making up stuff. We would need to take that into consideration and test buffs for Snake that would help that matchup.

Make sense? I hope you can be a part of the feedback process to collect accurate data that will allow this project to have the best results possible, for ALL characters.

I want a vid of TL's new upB ryko *-* since I cant test it :/. Also, why did the mid tiers get only very minor and almost useless buffs to situational moves lol. Like TL's upB, zero suit's buffs and peach's. I dont think these minor buffs ake them as good as diddy :/.

Again, these minor buffs aren't expected to be a big deal, we have no illusions. We just gave them a little something minor while we figure out where they fit into the new metagame. More data will from more players will allow us to make educated and informed decisions moving forward.

 

[MK26]

When a character like Marth or Charizard auto-sweetspots the ledge with their UpB and then jumps up from the ledge and lands on the stage, they'll suffer their standard fall-special lag. Did you guys intentionally leave this in? Because that's one of the first things I would have taken out.

I cant remember their reasoning why, but i do know they opted against implementing the triple jump glitch fix

The grab-jump return code is another one that probably should be implemented, though it may go against the goals of the project

EDIT: ninja'd

 

[Bouse]

You can't add SA to anything or give a move custom decay (for the time being, at least).

Perhaps it would be best for the OP to include what is and isn't possible so that you can avoid wasting suggestions.

Well...

Those looking to make suggestions might take note of this anyway; this is a list of concepts we would like to investigate in the future:

-Throw modification (would fix Ice Climbers and be useful on a lot of characters)
-Ledgestalling tweak (all ledgegrabs are limited to 7 times, like Ike's Aether)
-Stage hazard modification (would make several stages, such as Flat Zone 2 and Port Town Aero Dive, easy counterpicks)
-Rumble Falls no "speed up"
-WarioWare tweaked prize mechanics (always 4% healing), would stay true to design and be fair
-Better stage select mechanics (so WiFi Training Room can be picked in training and WiFi and Hanenbow can be picked in versus)
-General water mechanics tweaks (being able to set drowning to be percentage independent and have a duration similar to some middle percentage would be ideal)
-A fix for Meta Knight's infinite Dimensional Cape bug and Sheik's chain glitch
-A code to apply super armor to arbitrary frames of arbitrary moves (it was something we considered at several points for some of the slow characters)
-Any codes that reduce or eliminate controller port dependencies
-Any codes to speed up character transformation time (presumably by exploiting the other two character slots in a 1v1)

I figured that they were working on it as a possibility, no need to get snippy (nice avatar btw best movie ever). Also, if it ever becomes a possibility might as well leave it on the table.

 

[xDD-Master]

Although I disagree, I understand where this guy is coming from. Plus, seeing as the pros mostly play MK, Snake, or the like who got nothing but nerfed, we have a few issues here... >.<

Or think of an IC Main, if they discover how to edit throws and put their CGs out. Why should an IC-Player play BBrawl if vBrawl gives them a soooooooo special grab game (Which is for many ICs the most important reason why they main them I think).

And yeah, this IS a problem. Like I said, I can only speak of myself... I'm 1000000% sure that if I would be a Ganon main I would be so much more interested in BBrawl than now.

 

[ffdgh]

i though transformation relies oh how fast the game read the disk. lol would it be possible to even do that?

 

[Thinkaman]

This project looks great. I haven't had a chance to test it, just looked over the changed on the first post. I do have on recommendation with Samus. I see you added more damage to her bomb. While this is good, it doesn't take away from the inherent disadvantages of dropping bombs and their lack of use.

I think a good change would be having the bombs explode on contact earlier or allowing her to use moves when she bounces off an explosion. I'm not sure how many lines of code that would be but I think it would give her a good close range move that she is lacking.

Thanks for your support! Samus testers in general found bombs to be at first underwhelming, but then a modest buff after they started using bombs to trade hits favorably against more things. I hope you are able to test this out and evaluate the impact of these changes on Samus's matchups, we really need that support.

Ok, in vbrawl, against a Mario dummy on FD in training mode, Mario dies from Snake's uptilt at 102%. In Bbrawl, Mario dies at 127%. With DI even higher. Uptilt doesn't kill Dedede until 157%, and that's without DI. My early impression is that the move was a bit overnerfed.

A Guy that understands me Snake ftw :D

I think you have to be Snake Main to realize how important Uptilt is for him and thats it's more than a just a overpowered move and how much this nerfs him.

The only half-way fair & easy thing I could think of is a Dtilt buff, the easiest thing would be to just exchange damage & knockback statistics of Dtilt&Uptilt. Dtilt has a smaller and more realistic hit box.

I wish I could do my own Snake and I would give my best to make him fair, fun, cool, good and not overpowered. But I dont have the options to do that Or I just dont know how if it's only code-based changes with values what I can find here on SWF...

Spoiler

Btw his taunts also need very very big buffs XDDD (This would be too epic). jk ^^

kill moves of M2K vs. Ally at Apex:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7q2DdBNajvo match 1
Snake: Uptilt, Uptilt, Granade
MK: Nair (OK Self-Destruct :S), Nair

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99AVtgL-CiQ match 2
Snake: Bair, Down-Smash
MK: Up-Air, Up-Air, Up-Air

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhZLWgjUK_8 match 3
Snake: Uptilt, Fair, UpTilt
MK: Up-B, SD by Ally

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NP-U-Ybmp8 match 4
Snake: Fair, Up-Air, Down-B
MK: Up-B

Ally used 4 of 10 times Uptilt to kill (+ low %).

M2K used Up-B 2 of 8 times and DSmash 0 of 8 times to kill Ally.

And he "only" killed him 40% of time with UpTilt because M2K is sooo good at spacing. Dont know if Ally would have won (Especially first match) with a worse uptilt compared to MKs worse moves. Ally and M2K should just make a Bo5 in BBrawl xD

In Ampharos's words, "Snake is extremely sensitive to changes to his u-tilt"; we are totally aware of the massive impact u-tilt has on Snake's game, trust us. It's actually one of the reasons we left f-tilt alone. This public preview should allow us to get solid data on Snake's changed matchups and decide where he stands.

Although I disagree, I understand where this guy is coming from. Plus, seeing as the pros mostly play MK, Snake, or the like who got nothing but nerfed, we have a few issues here... >.<

Keep in mind that only 3 characters were really nerfed, unless you also count Pikachu who we need to look at further.

Okay, just played some BBrawl last night and a few things:
*Red stuff is the cliff notes.

Zero Suit Samus:

If you can reduce the start-up of the third jab, or increase the knockback and damage of the second jab so that it makes the third no longer needed, that would be best. It would give her a much more viable ground game and round her out as a character.

Making her Ftilt trip more often might actually be a decent idea, since most Dtilts are designed to do that anyway but do it with more frequency than her Ftilt.

Gotta be honest that the Fsmash change didn't do anything for her. Any ZSS main knows that we only used Fsmash as a mindgame, because it was such a godawful move. If anything it's barely mediocre now, which is nice.

All in all, the jab change would balance her out as a character instead of changing something that didn't matter in the first place. Side+B is a generally better move and 9.8 times out of 10 far more effective.

Link:

I'm lovin' Link in this setup, however I have one major change that would alter the gameplay of Link dramatically.

Change the knockback so it's not as ridiculous on the Up+B. An increase was needed, but I think you overdid it. However, this change is dependent on another one which is actually dependent on whether you can add SA frames. To the initial 5-8 frames of his Up+B when the hitbox comes out give him Super Armor frames. This way you don't need to make it truck people super ******** because it'd actually be a mindgame similar to Ike's Eruption/Wario's Fsmash and can be used for a solid KO and edgeguard while not making it an 110% midstage KO. Also, it would fix the problem with his abysmal recovery.

Snake:

Give him back some knockback on his Utilt, 120% is a good enough point for a midweight to die. You killed his KO potential, maybe make it so it degenerates faster so that it can't be done 2-3 times in a row with no success and is only used for a guaranteed KO at higher %'s.

Swimming:

Change the modifiers by about a 10-11% increase in survivability at the low end, and probably 15-20% at the high end. You made it so it's a stage hazard now, and not a tech chase KO like it used to be. It significantly altered the way that water works on stages and screws over characters who just suck at getting out of water like poor ol' Fatass McGanonpants.

All in all kudos! This was a fun new way to play Brawl that I actually enjoyed, instead of Brawl+ which I feel changed too many fundamental things in the game. Personally I just think that at a certain point you got too focused on making characters worse and overdid it a bit, i.e. nerfing Snakes long glorious legs but an excellent beta version to say the least .

Hope to see this project develop into something awesome.

Thanks for your feedback, I hope you get the chance to investigate more characters and provide some matchup data in the future!

When a character like Marth or Charizard auto-sweetspots the ledge with their UpB and then jumps up from the ledge and lands on the stage, they'll suffer their standard fall-special lag. Did you guys intentionally leave this in? Because that's one of the first things I would have taken out.

We've fixed it in Brawl+, so it must be a purposeful decision not to include the code.

Correct. This is likely to be somewhat controversial, but we have decided to leave this in for now as a mechanic of the game engine. We don't feel it is critical to remove the incentive for these characters to try and reach the ledge without resorting to up-b, and would prefer to address buffs to other areas.

 

[Thinkaman]

The grab-jump return code is another one that probably should be implemented, though it may go against the goals of the project

This is really not needed any more with grab release issues addressed, and would only serve to homogenize a unique Snake weakness that isn't really problematic for his matchup spread. We want to keep mechanics unchanged as much as possible.

Or think of an IC Main, if they discover how to edit throws and put their CGs out. Why should an IC-Player play BBrawl if vBrawl gives them a soooooooo special grab game (Which is for many ICs the most important reason why they main them I think).

And yeah, this IS a problem. Like I said, I can only speak of myself... I'm 1000000% sure that if I would be a Ganon main I would be so much more interested in BBrawl than now.

Keep in mind that this is a preview, for collecting matchup data and gathering community input. If Snake or anyone else needs changes, they will be made. However, we can't discover if that is true unless we get real playtest feedback from players like you!

And no matter what happens, ICs will always been a thorn in this project's side. I'm fairly certain it will be totally impossible to please everyone with the ICs, even if we do discover ways to change them.

i though transformation relies oh how fast the game read the disk. lol would it be possible to even do that?

Animation changes and potential pre-loading in other character slots MIGHT make a difference... hard to say though. I'll be investigating it.

 

[Suntan Luigi]

I support this project 100%! Can't wait to try it out!


BBRAWL IS WHAT BRAWL SHOULD HAVE BEEN.

 

[Turbo Ether]

When a character like Marth or Charizard auto-sweetspots the ledge with their UpB and then jumps up from the ledge and lands on the stage, they'll suffer their standard fall-special lag. Did you guys intentionally leave this in? Because that's one of the first things I would have taken out.

I agree. Space Animals, Ganondorf and Falcon also suffer from this, sideB recoveries included.

 

[JOE!]

Speaking of grab releases...

Have the Earthbound Crew, Bowser or DK's grab release traits been altered?

 

[xDD-Master]

I understand completely, thanks for voicing your thoughts in a civil and well-written manner.

I am not opposed at all to buffing the top characters in some way. For example, I always thought it would be cool if Snake's d-smash was more powerful, since it is seldom a practical move to make use of.

However, we need to see where these top characters stand in the metagame to decide what to do with them; we need to make sure their buffs are what they need; for example, let's say we discover that Ivysaur is now a 70:30 matchup for snake, just making up stuff. We would need to take that into consideration and test buffs for Snake that would help that matchup.

Make sense? I hope you can be a part of the feedback process to collect accurate data that will allow this project to have the best results possible, for ALL characters.

I will give my best to help you (All Snake Mains should) but at first I have to download NTSC Brawl and then I have to find someone that has NTSC-Brawl too and plays Wifi, not much in Germany or I will have to make laggy WiFi tests with you Americans (I'm open for everyone just PM me :D) or you will release a PAL Version of the codeset ._. (Would be the best deal)

And I understand you, we have to see now if Snake is still overpowered or not (Or maybe to bad and needs buffs). But like I said the most important thing for an success is that every vBrawl-player will have fun in this game with their Main and that they have a specific zest to test it out. I just likes balancing thats why I will try it and maybe help you, but I would still prefer some changes otherwise I will play more the other characters (Especially the ones with a lot changes) because they give me more variety than Snake in vBrawl compared to BBrawl.

And your DSmash Idea is good, because it nearly never kills in a match (But I throw people in it, so it has damage usage ^^) Anway I would prefer something really cool & new like my F-Air ground idea. Or C4 spikes instead of blowing up o_O

Btw. I main Sheik in Brawl+, because she gives me a lot of orgasm (Like Snake in vBrawl) and I dont like the Snake in B+ (One reason is the weaker uptilt... it just doesnt feel "correct"... like falcon punch would only kill at 200% :S I think it's just the habit )

 

[GHNeko]

Btw. I main Sheik in Brawl+, because she gives me a lot of orgasm (Like Snake in vBrawl) and I dont like the Snake in B+ (One reason is the weaker uptilt... it just doesnt feel "correct"... like falcon punch would only kill at 200% :S I think it's just the habit )

Utilt wasn't touched. It only feels weaker because there is increased gravitiy. The move doesn't stale in B+ so excluding gravities, its actually better than its Brawl counterpart. :V

EDIT: Hell, including gravities, it's still probably better. :V

 

[ffdgh]

das is schade? lol but any way go 4 it

lol taking away decay seems to defy all brawl games but ill give it a shot first

 

[Da Man]

I will give my best to help you (All Snake Mains should) but at first I have to download NTSC Brawl and then I have to find someone that has NTSC-Brawl too and plays Wifi, not much in Germany or I will have to make laggy WiFi tests with you Americans (I'm open for everyone just PM me :D) or you will release a PAL Version of the codeset ._. (Would be the best deal)

Someone better make a PAL version of Balanced Brawl, us PAL users always feel left out.

 

[ffdgh]

we need a code translator like gamecube had XD
would a g cube translator work for different region wii gamnes O_o? gcncrypt

 

[xDD-Master]

Utilt wasn't touched. It only feels weaker because there is increased gravitiy. The move doesn't stale in B+ so excluding gravities, its actually better than its Brawl counterpart. :V

EDIT: Hell, including gravities, it's still probably better. :V

Well maybe I played another version or I just remembered it wrong. Not sure. Like I said I main Sheik+ and I dont play Snake+ often. So you could be true, but anway Snake feels somehow wrong to me >_< Cant really explain why. Maybe it's not Snake himself but the game he is in (His Stage-Control-game and most of his moves just dont fit into the quicker gameplay... i think)

 

[Bouse]

Come to think of it, with Zero Suit Samus' jab:

Alter the second hit so it always moves them away and up with like... a tiny bit more damage on the second and third hits. It'll probably be the best way to change her jab combo without making her flail crazily on her third hit.

Pikachu
Make it so his Dsmash pulls in and down so it's a better damage builder, or can be used for an actual KO at higher %'s. On top of that change either start-up or ending lag on his Neutral B. It'll make him more spammy, but viable without his CG's.

The problem with removing his chains is that they were what made him competitive, you can't remove those without severely hindering him. It really felt like I was playing Pichu, but a bad Pichu.

His Air Game:
Also, increasing the damage on his Fair or Bair would help out a lot. Primarily the opening hit of the Fair.

Making it so the Dair is a pseudo-spike might help. It'd make the landing hitbox of it effective and not silly. The alternative to this is increasing pushback from the landing hitbox of the Dair.

Either that or keep the damage the same, but reduce the knockback on his Uair a tiny amount. It'll let him build up more damage in the air.

Zelda:
All in all I agree with the person who earlier said to make her Din's Fire like Ike's and CF's. Other than that good job on her.

Luigi:
Really seems like he could beat the crap out of anyone in this, maybe nerf his fireball damage and/or give them some mild knockback to reduce the combo-ability.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I don't have time to give detailed responses to assorted posts now for one reason and one reason only, a reason I doubt many will complained about. I am starting work on a PAL version by comparing the implementation of the codes between Brawl+ NTSC and Brawl+ PAL. Willing testers with PAL Wiis will be needed (given that Thinkaman and I are both a part of Missouri smash, we don't exactly have PAL Wiis), and it is likely not going to be a 100% complete version.

I'll post again when it's done.

 

[Gea]

Eh, with Pika I think there is one change that could totally make him scary without the CGs. Make the sweetspot of his fsmash the tip instead of by his cheeks.

Bam. Done. That would be a scary as hell fsmash and he would have a great killer.