Balanced Brawl Public Preview *GENESIS UPDATE*

[VietGeek]

I'm not sure I understand your platform. Are you saying that no changes can ever make up for abnormally sized hitboxes? Most of our playtest groups felt Snake u-tilt was reasonable, and I'm not sure we can fairly ask players to learn one set of hitbox sizes for our version and another for standard Brawl... even for only a few moves.

I can understand hitbox size, because ultimately even the WBR decided against changing Snake's hitboxes, but attack timing wasn't really what I was talking about.

I really meant those moves were borderline useless and don't work at all as they should. Timing TL's fsmash differently won't change the fact that it really does never connect. *shrug*

From my previous post, saying that hitbox sizes aren't exactly the only problem when it comes to hitboxes in general.

I would say "Sorry my English is bad." But I was born and raised in the states. -_-

 

[ffdgh]

Her bair is fine and can actually kill for her. It is great for spacing and doesn't need changing. Her airdodge is one of those "was that a mistake?" things in Brawl if you look at the frame data, however.

Edit: This suggestion was line the "Make Ness' aerial game better."

D'whaaaaa?? Its already great.

lol ur right about that as i use her back and netural air for ed guarding
if anything tho, buff her u air as its almost useless thx to her short air hop jump

 

[Thinkaman]

I think they are trying to specifically avoid hitbox changes in lue of damage/knockback changes so that no one has to relearn spacing. That the moves are fundamentally the same, just less effective. Like Snake's utilt. I think making it weaker but still rigged in range was a superior alternative to making Snake work really hard to land a utilt for the same reward.

This way Snake players can still use utilt the same way and get different effects. Everyone wins in that situation.

Edit: Also you have to realize that it is better to underbuff and redo the buffs/changes than overbuff and have to deal with the backlash of constantly making characters worse. I prefer this method, I just think this preview release has a few simple changes that could make it overall more effective.

You pretty much nailed it. No need for haste.

The big problem I have is that the answer to a character being bad in many cases is just making their worst moves hit harder, which doesn't do jack for them, frankly.

We are totally aware of this. Trust us, we have no illusions about almost trivial changes like +1% on Sonic d-tilt changing his game a lot.

It's more a case of being conservative and waiting to judge the impact other, larger changes will have on the character matchups before making further decisions. The small changes in place to character like Wolf, Pit, and Toon Link are only intended to round them out a bit.

And seriously, that f-smash is by no means a small change. We actually had to nerf more than once, because it was found to be too improved. You really do need to try it before dismissing it.

Very true. To make a player more even you have to change advantages in match-ups which frankly comes down to the options a person has against another. In order to do that you have to make game changing alterations.

As far as I can tell Shiek and ICs can still beat Ganon pretty hard.

Almost all changes to low tiers were very specifically targetted at their most problematic matchups.

ICs is still Ganon's worst matchup, since they can't be changed. However, since d-tilt trips both of them (unlike side-b...), Ganon is considerably more effective agaisnt them than before. (Still a bad matchup...)

Ganon has much less issues with Sheik actually. You can use the u-tilt wind to trade damage with the chain, oddly enough.

I think the hardest part of balancing characters is modifying their cheap or underused moves without completely changing it. The propose of this is to balance the game without changing the way the game plays after all.

Yes; again, we have no illusions that small buffs to previously bad moves are anything more than a token "rounding out" of the character. And when something is changes drastically, like Bowser's dair or Link's Arrows, we have to make sure to tell everyone what a "game changer" it is.

I started playing this briefly yesterday and I'm quite impressed with the changes that were made. One problem I think that should be fixed is Peach's horrid air dodge. It needs to be slightly better to make it viable, especially because Peach's Dair doesn't have enough priority to keep her safe in the air, a place where she is a lot...

Thanks for testing it out, I look forward to more feedback. Peach's air dodge has ben discussed, and will certainly be discussed more in the future. Please, no one think they are being dismissed or ignored.

That's because their underused moves are bad and their cheap moves are cheap. In most cases it's not because of how hard they hit or don't hit, it's because of the other stuff. Hitboxes, effects (MK's tornado), priority, etc. Snake's utilt isn't crazy because of how early it kills, but because of its stupid range. Ganon's grab isn't bad because his pummels and throws suck (even though they might, I don't know) they're bad because Flame Choke is always better and because his grab's actual range is so pitiful no one smart will ever get hit by it.

Ganon's grab is actually his fastest ground move, is safer than most standing grabs, and offers some of the best throw damage in the game. Just saying.

You can't just take a really bad move and make it kill early in most cases. The move is still going to be bad, it's just going to be a bad move that kills early. I can count on one hand the amount of bad moves in this game that are bad because they don't hit hard enough. Seriously.

I think you are being somewhat obtuse. There are tons of moves that take 20 frames or more to come out, but are still used because they are that rewarding. Only once you get above 35 or so frames does a move become so slow that no reward is enough.

Again, f-smash was originally so good that it had to be toned back down... twice. Given it's range, its power was putting most other smash attacks to shame.

This is a good idea, but there are a ton of misconceptions about various characters here and you guys really need input from good players who play these characters.

...which is why we have made this public preview.

Also, I think some people have the impression that me and Ampharos just sat around and palyed each other to test this. (Heck, we only played each other once, and it was wi-fi!) Testing was done by MANY players of many different mains, in many cities. Holms was the best ZSS player in testing, and I don't know of anyone who is going to belittle his impressive ZSS.

There are also a lot of missed chain grabs (ZSS' fthrow chaingrabs on ganon, cf, bowser, snake, and dedede, Pit's low % cgs, a few others).

We are aware of them, and decided not to address them at least for now. I probably shouldn't say this, but I think that ZSS and Wario *might* be addressed in the future, while Pit, Lucario, and Kirby will remain unchanged.

Honestly ZSS should keep her CGs. Good luck grabbing with her easily. >.>

It is a problem on walk-offs though... we'll have to see.

I want to say to everyone that the quality of posts in this thread has improved. Thanks to all.

 

[CRASHiC]

DDD is still ***** by all of his formerly bad matchups, and some (like Marth and Snake) are now bad matchups. As I said before, you took out what was DDD's main design feature, and gave him nothing in return other than a highly situational gimick.

Put the chain grab back, get rid of the infinite.

Even without Falco's chain grab, Falco still ***** us hard because we have little approach options, the same goes for Olimar, Pikachu, and Ice Climbers.

All of DDDs bad matchups remain bad matchups. You have in no way balanced his bad matchups, but in return, turned many good matchups into horrible matchups. Regardless of your feelings against chain grabs, DDD was designed with an intentional chain grab, this has been proven by Samurai Panda. Taking out a design feature for a charecter is not a positive thing. Sure, take out accidents like the infinite, but taking out the chain grab without giving DDD any buffs makes him useless now, as nearly every top tier will destroy him. His bad matchups have increased from 9 to at the very least 15.

This is not a balanced game.

This is a game where you are favoring characters you enjoy.

 

[Gea]

lol ur right about that as i use her back and netural air for ed guarding
if anything tho, buff her u air as its almost useless thx to her short air hop jump

Uair is awesome. Look up some vids of KOSMOS to see how to use it. I promise it is awesome.

Yeah, I didn't think about ZSS grabs on walkoffs but her grab is so punishable that if she whiffs she is certainly dead herself there, and she can't camp the walkoffs since she has to be facing that way (unless you camp with dsmash to pivot grab, which I am lolling about since that is less effective than a pit camping there with arrows to bthrow).

Edit: CRASHiC, I wouldn't accuse anyone of that, lol. That proves to be the consequence of taking out the CGs of DDD's game. If he really drops that much I'm sure they will reassess the situation and consider buffs. Honestly though DDD can win alot of his matchups he could before without camping for grabs. Just chill out, lodge your complaints with vids/data/explanations and don't be hostile.

 

[Dark Sonic]

So uh...now that I've told you how to compensate knockback when making damage changes....you should probably compensate knockback when making damage changes.

This will let you be a lot more liberal with said changes, and make changes much larger than...2%

Btw, I can't stress enough how Sonic's dair is a BAD MOVE, and would be bad even if it did 20% (if it did more than that I'd use it though ). It's a bad move because it's simply far too risky to throw out. If you miss, you take a smash attack, or a combo starter (for the characters who have those <_<). Even if you're in a position to hit them, it will likely just get beat by another move because of it's terrible hitbox. And at lower percentages, even if you hit with it you just get hit back.

And once again, the old angle on Sonic's up B spring was actually MORE useful. Even after actually testing it, the opponent just waits to up B (rather than doing it immediately) and autosweetspots the ledge when they're close, and when they're far they up B earlier and reach the ledge from places that they wouldn't have reached it from with the old angle. It does a WORSE job at gimping the opponent unless they're like Bowser or something (who's up B goes through the spring anyway).

Sonic deserves much more extensive buffs than these, as these buffs don't even play to his strengths (springs are not good at gimping because so many up Bs just go through them, and dair is not used to attack, it's used to move). His most commonly used moves are uair and f-tilt, so why didn't you buff those? Why didn't you just speed up dair (lowering the total duration of it) so that he doesn't go as far and can use it for more movement (considering moving around and attacking at odd angles is 90% of Sonic's game). Why didn't you speed up side B's startup lag so that it could be more useful for baiting approaches (it has invincibility on release. If it were faster it would be a great anti-approach move). There are so many "game changers" that you could do for Sonic, yet you chose two buffs that aren't actually going to be seen in real play (the spring will be seen, but it's actually a nerf so...)

 

[Thinkaman]

DDD is still ***** by all of his formerly bad matchups, and some (like Marth and Snake) are now bad matchups. As I said before, you took out what was DDD's main design feature, and gave him nothing in return other than a highly situational gimick.

You continue to ignore every reply to you, and have obviously still not played the game. I'm sorry if you expected a real reply, because you offered nothing to reply to.

 

[Adapt]

It is significantly stronger, again, one of the biggest single buffs. Testers find it effective and worth using; Slow, vulnerable moves require proper reward, which this move lacked before.



This could probably only be fixed by taboo timing changes, although potentially clever tweaks to the angle might help. For the time being though, I think it is best to investigate where ZSS fits into the new metagame with this f-smash buff. As Ampharos said, Holms was favorable about it, so it seems to be on the right track. Once more people get to playing with her, we will see.

I can certainly tell it was a large power buff. I will say it makes F-Smash more on the level of Dair now. rather than totally useless, it has the once in a blue moon application. However, there will almost always be a better move.

As for the jab, I believe you are on the right track about tweaking the angle. I suggest you make the angle completely vertical and test that. I don't think it will hit the character too high to miss the third jab, and if the character can't touch the ground, they can't shield. air-dodge is too slow from what I can tell. SDI might allow people to powershield the jab, but even so I think that would be a pretty fair buff.


Other characters:

Ganon: He seems better, but still not great. I like the changes to wizards foot. He has some interesting combos that I can't tell if they work against a human or not, but work beautifully against a computer.

CF: seems about the same, I can't seem to see the changes benefiting him much except for the trip. Then again, I never liked falcon much. I'll see if my friend who plays him will test this out sometime.

Jiggs: Seems surprisingly better. The changes don't seem huge, but they work well. Also, d-smash is pretty scary on an edge now!

I will get to testing out everyone else later


EDIT: You seem to have missed my earlier post about her F-Smash. I did some really testing to try and back up what we are saying

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I think you are being somewhat obtuse. There are tons of moves that take 20 frames or more to come out, but are still used because they are that rewarding. Only once you get above 35 or so frames does a move become so slow that no reward is enough.

Again, f-smash was originally so good that it had to be toned back down... twice. Given it's range, its power was putting most other smash attacks to shame.

Yes, there are plenty of 20 frame kill moves, but not in ZSS' repertoire. She has kill moves that come out in 4 frames, 20 is garbage.

Also, I think some people have the impression that me and Ampharos just sat around and palyed each other to test this. (Heck, we only played each other once, and it was wi-fi!) Testing was done by MANY players of many different mains, in many cities. Holms was the best ZSS player in testing, and I don't know of anyone who is going to belittle his impressive ZSS.

Wait, this guy? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkSk19NbZ_w

...seriously?

 

[CRASHiC]

You continue to ignore every reply to you, and have obviously still not played the game. I'm sorry if you expected a real reply, because you offered nothing to reply to.

Please explain to me how the changes you have made help DDD in his 35:75 matchup with Olimar and Ice Climbers. Until you can answer this, I refuse to call this game balanced, and will call it favored.

 

[Scipion121212]

When it could be avaliable for Europe version of brawl? Can´t wait to try it! It seems great.

 

[ffdgh]

i did some testing on snakes u tilt on toon link since someone said it only killed him around 174%

from what I've tested, a fresh u tilt will kill tlink at 123% and it wont if the sour spot connects up until 146%. lol just some random testing I just did =P

 

[Gea]

Please explain to me how the changes you have made help DDD in his 35:75 matchup with Olimar and Ice Climbers. Until you can answer this, I refuse to call this game balanced, and will call it favored.

Balanced game does not mean every matchup is 50/50. LOL. And no one is claiming that this game is anywhere near balanced yet.

 

[CRASHiC]

Balanced game does not mean every matchup is 50/50. LOL. And no one is claiming that this game is anywhere near balanced yet.

No, but a game with 35-75 matchups, and a charecter with what will now be 15 horrible matchups is not balanced.
Then explain to me how his chain grab ruins balance, if characters that suffer from getting gimped (Marth) and light charecters (Diddy, Peach, TL) all deal with the chain grab very well. Taking the chain grab out was NOT done for balance, but was done simply because the designers do not like chain grabs.

 

[Thinkaman]

So uh...now that I've told you how to compensate knockback when making damage changes....you should probably compensate knockback when making damage changes.

In almost all cases, we intended knockback to be changed alongside damage. In cases like Shiek f-tilt, this is really obvious.

In other cases, for example Jigglypuff, we have already compensated appropriately.

I'm not sure what it is you are asking for here.

This will let you be a lot more liberal with said changes, and make changes much larger than...2%

Hmmm? 2% on most moves is a big change. Do you think we weren't changing most moves more than that because we didn't know how to change knockback?

Btw, I can't stress enough how Sonic's dair is a BAD MOVE, and would be bad even if it did 20% (if it did more than that I'd use it though ). It's a bad move because it's simply far too risky to throw out. If you miss, you take a smash attack, or a combo starter (for the characters who have those <_<). Even if you're in a position to hit them, it will likely just get beat by another move because of it's terrible hitbox. And at lower percentages, even if you hit with it you just get hit back.

Again, no illusions on dair becoming a useful move. It's jsut rounding him out; if you do hit with a dair, it "deserves" to do a little more.

And once again, the old angle on Sonic's up B spring was actually MORE useful. Even after actually testing it, the opponent just waits to up B (rather than doing it immediately) and autosweetspots the ledge when they're close, and when they're far they up B earlier and reach the ledge from places that they wouldn't have reached it from with the old angle. It does a WORSE job at gimping the opponent unless they're like Bowser or something (who's up B goes through the spring anyway).

I have no idea what you are talking about, and I don't say that to be rude. I legitimately don't understand. It hits straight down; I can think of no situation or character where that actually makes recovering easier, ever.

Sonic deserves much more extensive buffs than these, as these buffs don't even play to his strengths (springs are not good at gimping because so many up Bs just go through them, and dair is not used to attack, it's used to move). His most commonly used moves are uair and f-tilt, so why didn't you buff those? Why didn't you just speed up dair (lowering the total duration of it) so that he doesn't go as far and can use it for more movement (considering moving around and attacking at odd angles is 90% of Sonic's game). Why didn't you speed up side B's startup lag so that it could be more useful for baiting approaches (it has invincibility on release. If it were faster it would be a great anti-approach move). There are so many "game changers" that you could do for Sonic, yet you chose two buffs that aren't actually going to be seen in real play (the spring will be seen, but it's actually a nerf so...)

I'm really not sure what you are talking about. Uair *was* buffed, and so was dash attack. Sonic received extra attention in the last couple weeks, and most testers considered him "perfect" after the last round of changes. Of course, we still need much broader feedback.

 

[Teronist09]

It is disruptive, for sure. Initially, testers were split on if it was a good idea or not. However, after playing with them, testers greatly prefered the new behavior.

Falcon mainly likes to raptor boost away rolls out of d-tilt, and chase with uairs. It's very natural for him.

Ganondorf has an entire new layer of tech chasing with it. I've done over 60% in a single tech-chasing chain against humans. It's a huuuuge buff once you get used to it, it gives Ganon so many options that fit in with his existing game.

I understand WHY the new change was made, but it sticks you in to one way of playing because now, as far as I can tell, dtilt is only good for tech chasing or trying to go for a quick kill. In vBrawl I could decide whether or not I felt like tech chasing someone (and I have no great love for techchasing (also, you could already get 60% techchases), but now I feel like I have much less choice in the matter with Ganon's best tilt changed to fit one playstyle only.
If it was chance to trip I could maybe live with it because then some of the time it would still function the same as before. But like this he feels like a weird clone or something, and since the game feels so similar to vbrawl there's no reason for me to want to play this over it. If you're keeping the gameplay so close to vbrawl I don't think you should be making such huge changes to particular moves and character playstyles as I believe this does. It offers me no incentive to play this over vBrawl, but I guess that's just me.

The thing is, the grounding effect fits into that tech chasing game I just described. Jekyll started grounding people out of side-b get-up-attacks, and absolutely wrecking them! Landing even one grounding down-b is incredible damage and will let you KO above 75% or so, and side-b and tripping d-tilt make it a realistic move to land.

Same as above. You changed the move completely to fit into one playstyle. I understand the application of the moves, but I have no interest in playing the character like that. If I wanted to adapt to a new playstyle I'd play B+, but this game is so similar to vBrawl (at least it feels so) that there is no incentive for me to change playstyles.

I'm pressed for time, if I have a chance i'll finish with the rest of what I was thinking

 

[auroreon]

Just want to say that I support this project 100%. This is everything Brawl+ should have been and its great to see someone finally taking the time to use what we have to really create a true improved Brawl.

I will endorse this to other players as much as I possibly can and spread the word. It would make me so happy to see this as tournament standard, however unlikely that may be. I'll try to convert as much of the UK tournament scene as I can.

Very best of luck to all involved in this project, I truly hope it gains ground and I will do everything I can to help. Thank you so very much for you time and effort. Words cannot express my appreciation.

~ A Yoshi main sick of losing.

 

[ffdgh]

>_> online anyone?

 

[Gea]

No, but a game with 35-75 matchups, and a charecter with what will now be 15 horrible matchups is not balanced.
Then explain to me how his chain grab ruins balance, if characters that suffer from getting gimped (Marth) and light charecters (Diddy, Peach, TL) all deal with the chain grab very well. Taking the chain grab out was NOT done for balance, but was done simply because the designers do not like chain grabs.

Mmm yes, Peach handles it well by attempting to outcamp a DDD with turnips. Its a very fun much that often goes to the timer because the DDD doesn't want to approach without landing a grab.

You can still handle those matchups just as well (minus MAYBE marth) without it. Diddy already ***** your chances to grab and you get outcamped by TL.

Why should you get a free 50% on a Peach for her approaching?

Like, I totally understand wanting DDD to not become a second Bowser but God****, you're whining about something that was one mistake, 50% in matchups where he didn't need it (Peach.)

Why don't you bring up the fact that he is having trouble and find a suitable alternative than "DDD deserves it."

And I love the hell out of DDD, son.

By the way, DDD ISN'T THE ONLY ONE TO HAVE A HARD TIME WITH OLIMAR. Geezes.

 

[Suspect]

No, but a game with 35-75 matchups,.

of course cause 35+75= 110

 

[bigman40]

I really do think fair is a Yoshi buff that people need to try. It looks bad on paper, but in practice feels natural and lets Yoshi pressure and KO better. It compliments his bair nicely.

We wanted to buff Yoshi throws, but are not able to. Instead, we settled on a 50% buff to his pummel.

Okay, but what you are not seeing correctly is how the Fair won't be that much of a difference due to the fact that we have poor range and poor priority to go against most of the cast. It a slow move that people can see coming and it's easily avoidable. Our Dair is much more of an important aerial than our Fair, and a buff from it would most likely benefit more than the Fair. I mean, we're willing to try it anyway since it's just a preview, but that's how we see the buffs.

 

[ffdgh]

i been toying around with g dorfs new kick, lol use it in the air to ground them then use his up tilt for super pwnage, also makes a good spike

hmm his down a getting the pit fall effect is good too now that i imagine it
but yoshi bomber got a good buff too

 

[Rykoshet]

>_> online anyone?

where are you from?

 

[Thinkaman]

I can certainly tell it was a large power buff. I will say it makes F-Smash more on the level of Dair now. rather than totally useless, it has the once in a blue moon application. However, there will almost always be a better move.

EDIT: You seem to have missed my earlier post about her F-Smash. I did some really testing to try and back up what we are saying

Yes, there are plenty of 20 frame kill moves, but not in ZSS' repertoire. She has kill moves that come out in 4 frames, 20 is garbage.

What kill move does ZSS have that is the range of f-smash and comes out in 4 frames?

Listen, I'm not saying f-smash is the be-all-end-all KO move for ZSS now. It's simply a modest, conservative change not unlike what Peach or Wolf got. This isn't the final word on ZSS.

As for the jab, I believe you are on the right track about tweaking the angle. I suggest you make the angle completely vertical and test that. I don't think it will hit the character too high to miss the third jab, and if the character can't touch the ground, they can't shield. air-dodge is too slow from what I can tell. SDI might allow people to powershield the jab, but even so I think that would be a pretty fair buff.

Other characters:

Ganon: He seems better, but still not great. I like the changes to wizards foot. He has some interesting combos that I can't tell if they work against a human or not, but work beautifully against a computer.

CF: seems about the same, I can't seem to see the changes benefiting him much except for the trip. Then again, I never liked falcon much. I'll see if my friend who plays him will test this out sometime.

Jiggs: Seems surprisingly better. The changes don't seem huge, but they work well. Also, d-smash is pretty scary on an edge now!

I will get to testing out everyone else later

Thanks for your testing, BTW.

Ganon is pretty effective against humans. You can side-b to d-tilt chain CPUs longer than humans, but humans are easier to predict forward rolls against, shich you can punish with down-b, a smash, or dair.

Falcon is legitimately useful if the player knows him well. U-tilt's deadliness is even greater now, and more moves like side-b and down-b set the opponent up aerially in a nice, natural way.

I'm glad to think the Jiggs changes feel about right. D-smash was a change intended to help i nthe Wario matchup, as it's a very problematic matchup and d-smash has little merit elsewhere.

Wait, this guy? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkSk19NbZ_w

...seriously?

Hmmm? Holms is good, I've played him personally. Good Kirby, too.

Please explain to me how the changes you have made help DDD in his 35:75 matchup with Olimar and Ice Climbers. Until you can answer this, I refuse to call this game balanced, and will call it favored.

If you had so much as tried to play the game at all, you might have noticed that DDD's d-throw on the edge is an automatic KO with ledgehog against both of those characters (and no one else); this is in addition to his existing tech-chasing being easier.

On top of that, you also might have noticed that d-throw now spins the other IC away from DDD to separate them.

However, you were too busy ignoring this and flaming us to notice. Thanks.

When it could be avaliable for Europe version of brawl? Can´t wait to try it! It seems great.

We'll try to make this happen ASAP.

i did some testing on snakes u tilt on toon link since someone said it only killed him around 174%

from what I've tested, a fresh u tilt will kill tlink at 123% and it wont if the sour spot connects up until 146%. lol just some random testing I just did =P

That sounds consistent with my numbers.

 

[ffdgh]

where are you from?

im east coast, il give you my other code
3438-0833-0892

 

[Bladewing]

i still think metaknight is a bit overpowered but at least now he is easier to deal with as snake.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

No, but a game with 35-75 matchups, and a charecter with what will now be 15 horrible matchups is not balanced.
Then explain to me how his chain grab ruins balance, if characters that suffer from getting gimped (Marth) and light charecters (Diddy, Peach, TL) all deal with the chain grab very well. Taking the chain grab out was NOT done for balance, but was done simply because the designers do not like chain grabs.

Having a character with a HUGE grab range, who can punish almost ANYONE with a shieldgrab -> cg -> high damage throw, is NOT balanced. It needed to go. It was fine for the ICs to keep theirs. Why? Tiny grab range, no reliable way to set it up, shield grabbing doesn't work in most match-ups, and that is ALL they have.

His match ups are NOT going to suddenly go from 65-35 his favor to 35-65 due to a lack of CG. You are a fool to believe that. D3 still has a great projectile. D3 still has MONSTER throws that characters would kill to have. D3 still has a great gimping game. D3 still has amazing, disjointed hitboxes on most of his attacks. D3 still has great survivability. D3 still has great KOing power and the ability to set up kill moves, or has kill moves that don't need setting up.

Is he going to be S tier still? Probably not. A tier? Most likely. Stop crying and actually learn the freaking character. Or better yet, actually try Balanced Brawl and stop having a little hissy fit going "BAWWWWWWWWW, the creators don't like CGs. BAWWWWWWWWW I won't call it Balanced until they put D3's CG back in!"

 

[Rykoshet]

im east coast, il give you my other code
3438-0833-0892

Adding, be there in minute.

 

[Thinkaman]

I understand WHY the new change was made, but it sticks you in to one way of playing because now, as far as I can tell, dtilt is only good for tech chasing or trying to go for a quick kill. In vBrawl I could decide whether or not I felt like tech chasing someone (and I have no great love for techchasing (also, you could already get 60% techchases), but now I feel like I have much less choice in the matter with Ganon's best tilt changed to fit one playstyle only.
If it was chance to trip I could maybe live with it because then some of the time it would still function the same as before. But like this he feels like a weird clone or something, and since the game feels so similar to vbrawl there's no reason for me to want to play this over it. If you're keeping the gameplay so close to vbrawl I don't think you should be making such huge changes to particular moves and character playstyles as I believe this does. It offers me no incentive to play this over vBrawl, but I guess that's just me.

Same as above. You changed the move completely to fit into one playstyle. I understand the application of the moves, but I have no interest in playing the character like that. If I wanted to adapt to a new playstyle I'd play B+, but this game is so similar to vBrawl (at least it feels so) that there is no incentive for me to change playstyles.

I'm pressed for time, if I have a chance i'll finish with the rest of what I was thinking

I don't understand at all where you are coming from, and again I don't mean to sound rude.

Ganon is a character about having and exploiting control over your opponent. He seems slow and useless, but then he gets into a position where he is in charge of the situation and pulls out some trick that just destroys you. That's Ganon.

If you don't like that style, and yet again I don't mean to sound rude... but why are you playing Ganon? If you want strong ranged attacks, why aren't you playing DK? I'm not trying to insult you, just curious. Besides the control aspect, DK and even Bowser and Charizard do pretty much everything Ganon could want to do better. We intentionally focuses on the aspect that made him unique, since otherwise Ganon will always be just another heavy character, and the worst one at that.

Just want to say that I support this project 100%. This is everything Brawl+ should have been and its great to see someone finally taking the time to use what we have to really create a true improved Brawl.

I will endorse this to other players as much as I possibly can and spread the word. It would make me so happy to see this as tournament standard, however unlikely that may be. I'll try to convert as much of the UK tournament scene as I can.

Very best of luck to all involved in this project, I truly hope it gains ground and I will do everything I can to help. Thank you so very much for you time and effort. Words cannot express my appreciation.

~ A Yoshi main sick of losing.

Thanks for the support. Please know that we are serious about wanting any and every bit of feedback and input people can muster. Even if Ampharos or I appear to argue when we defend decisions that have been made so far, don't ever think that we are ignoring what people have to say. Debate leads to truth.

Okay, but what you are not seeing correctly is how the Fair won't be that much of a difference due to the fact that we have poor range and poor priority to go against most of the cast. It a slow move that people can see coming and it's easily avoidable. Our Dair is much more of an important aerial than our Fair, and a buff from it would most likely benefit more than the Fair. I mean, we're willing to try it anyway since it's just a preview, but that's how we see the buffs.

I do ask that you give it a solid chance, as testers have found it really does help Yoshi. Fair is a really hard move to hit with... but now hitting with it (on-stage) can mean over 40% and even a KO. Yoshi has the aerial speed to use it too, even if the slowness keeps it from being too exploitable.

i been toying around with g dorfs new kick, lol use it in the air to ground them then use his up tilt for super pwnage, also makes a good spike

hmm his down a getting the pit fall effect is good too now that i imagine it
but yoshi bomber got a good buff too

Grounding to u-smash is your best bet in most cases. At low percents you have to uair, at high percents finish with a f-smash.

 

[Dark Sonic]

In almost all cases, we intended knockback to be changed alongside damage. In cases like Shiek f-tilt, this is really obvious.

In other cases, for example Jigglypuff, we have already compensated appropriately.

I'm not sure what it is you are asking for here.

Oh, I had just noticed that almost all of the damage changes were really, really small. I had been told that you knew that damage affected knockback, but didn't know that you already knew how to compensate for it. My mistake.

Hmmm? 2% on most moves is a big change. Do you think we weren't changing most moves more than that because we didn't know how to change knockback?

2% on a move that gets repeated use is a big change. 2% on a move that you almost never hit with however, is a very small change.

Again, no illusions on dair becoming a useful move. It's just rounding him out; if you do hit with a dair, it "deserves" to do a little more.

And you couldn't MAKE it a useful move? It's actually pretty good for just moving around the stage, couldn't you just make it better at doing that? Not every move Sonic has is used to actually hit the opponent. Many are for just getting into a specific position quickly while giving yourself a little protection along the way.

I have no idea what you are talking about, and I don't say that to be rude. I legitimately don't understand. It hits straight down; I can think of no situation or character where that actually makes recovering easier, ever.

It's because the knockback of the move not only doesn't straight up kill the opponent, but also leaves them in their IDEAL position for recovering at the end of it. It sending them straight down actually leaves them closer to the stage than the old angle, abeit a little lower. In otherwords, they're left right in sweetspot range, rather than too high/too far to sweetspot right away. Sonic needs the extra time that the opponent sends drifting into sweetspot range to just get down from how high his up B sent him and continue the edgeguard. In the case of being far off stage, the old angle would've killed them anyway.

In practice this buff wasn't really a buff because it was just done on too small of a scale. Making the spring stronger in the first place (with or without the angle change) would be a much more useful buff.

I'm really not sure what you are talking about. Uair *was* buffed, and so was dash attack. Sonic received extra attention in the last couple weeks, and most testers considered him "perfect" after the last round of changes. Of course, we still need much broader feedback.

Well, this is the broader feedback. Sorry that I missed uair when looking over the changes (don't know how I missed it). The angle change on spring is far from a game changer, since spring is still used the same way (though less effectively <_<). Dair is still useless for attacking so the buff is wasted (if you were to take that 1% buff and apply it on top of one of Sonic's useful moves, nobody would mind.) The other buffs are good, but like DJbrowny said, the buff on d-tilt really would be better suited for f-tilt.

If you wanna buff Sonic, play into his strengths. Sonic has a very large array of movement options, just make these movement options a little better. Making dair have less overall duration would let him get down faster from more places, making side B have less startup would let him spinshot out of it quicker (it'd be awesome if you could dair out of a spinshot and have the dair end before you hit the ground...talk about Sonic being EVERYWHERE). THOSE would be game changers and would see a lot more play.

Or alternatively you could make the current move buffs bigger (replacing d-tilt with f-tilt as well) and not give Sonic any game changers. I think it would be a lot cooler to just play into Sonic's techs though <_<.

 

[ffdgh]

umm did we desinc?!

 

[Rykoshet]

*

Hmmm do you have the codeset on? That didn't work at all, desynched. Also if you have an IM client hit me on that. It's easier than spamming this thread.

 

[ffdgh]

hmm i have everything on but ill check right now to be sure

ok i turned everything on except debug and extended master pieces, going back now

 

[Thinkaman]

I'm still not understanding what you are saying about Sonic's spring hitting people closer to the stage. Where are you thinking they are being hit with the spring? This buff is helpful low off-stage, when the opponent is even or barely above/below the stage level. When they are really low, it will outright kill them.

 

[Dark Sonic]

When they are that low, the old angle would've killed most of them too <_< Sonic would edgehog them. Getting your opponent into that position in the first place is the hard part.

 

[Thinkaman]

When they are that low, the old angle would've killed most of them too <_< Sonic would edgehog them.

After an up-b?

 

[chic]

lets see if we can have 5 versions of brawl by the end of the year!

 

[Dark Sonic]

After an up-b?

Yes, Sonic typically does the up B early so that the spring is merely in front of them before they enter their up B's recovery range in the first place. Spring gimps are typically done far out, not low (since getting the opponent to recover low is...kinda hard for Sonic). Sonic then has plenty of time to get to the edge before them as they're forced to use their up B early and not sweetspot, or forced to attack the spring before sweetspotting (airdodging doesn't get past it because the spring falls slower than they do ).

Then again, with I could just be exagerating things a little...both springs kill them in that position anyway. Still, you could've given him buffs in more useful areas, this is hardly a "game changer".

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

I'm already very interested and I look forward to testing this build out. Just a couple of questions:

1. Is it possible to DLC any future balances if necessary?
2. Is planking removed? Were you, or could you, significantly reduce the invincibility frames to anyone attempting to hang on the ledge?

 

[DAlegendarysamus]

Good ****

this **** looks better than regular brawl and brawl plus. If you guys manage to finish this project and really get it down i will see if i can push this a little further and make this a legit thing. KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK GUYS. I GUESS THE GAUNTLET OLD RULES REALLY MADE A DIFFERENCE AFTER ALL.