Balanced Brawl Public Preview *GENESIS UPDATE*

[bleyva]

we have the King's blessing

we are destined for success!!

oh of course, NOW its a sure thing

face it, balancing this game with a knockback reduction here and there isnt going to solve anything........if this project gets far enough into production that its considered "balanced", i think it will be so far removed from the original that it will be an entirely different game, defeating the entire purpose of the undertaking to begin with.

a good try, but im not sure if its worth it.

 

[Knightcrawler]

face it, balancing this game with a knockback reduction here and there isnt going to solve anything........if this project gets far enough into production that its considered "balanced", i think it will be so far removed from the original that it will be an entirely different game, defeating the entire purpose of the undertaking to begin with.

a good try, but im not sure if its worth it.

q4t, I think.

 

[YagamiLight]

Ike's grab game is fine, they provide proper follow ups and frame traps based on weight and %. His grab game does what it should, and after about 5 hours of playing, he's fine. His biggest issue is that recovering high was NOT an option, it is a huge and beneficial option to use now. That's where it should end, he doesn't die unless he goes straight off the screen. The only thing I think is that if he gets roy's counter, the frame data for it should NOT change. It should be a high risk high reward move if the damage trajectory is going to change that significantly.

Hey there Ryko,

Ike's grab game is passable as it is, I won't deny that at all. It's probably one of the bottom five in terms of usefulness to the character though. I played for around 5 hours of just BBrawl today too (With an assortment of people and characters, however) and I could still feel the glaring limitations that arise when Ike is presented with a properly placed shield. While I certainly don't expect too much to happen to Ike I still don't feel like he has reached the "Diddy" level they were aiming for at the start. He's quite mobile now and it's hard to gimp him (not to mention he lives 2% longer since using QD instantly has mild momentum cancelling properties). I maintain that it certainly wouldn't hurt to, at the very least, increase his pummel damage to 4% and to give him a Down Throw that allows tech chases. The main problem with Ike is that he needs versatility in some areas and I believe those two will do it.

And as for Roy's frame data, I truly cannot remember what it was. If you would care to refresh my memory, that'd be great. I have no qualms about leaving the data intact, by the way. It's meant to be high risk/reward after all and would suit Ike to a T.

 

[00000]

So you should accept people being idiots and being straight up mean to an entire group of people cause it's the internet?

@ Irony.

P.S. I look forward to trying this.

 

[Deleted member]

I'd like to recommend that ike's sword attacks do significantly more shield damage. ike loses fundamentally to shields much more than his speed or recovery. If you're going to attack ike's weaknesses, make shielding his attacks harder.

also requesting that his counter has the same frame usage and knockback as marth's. if anything, marth still makes better use of it due to his running speed. at least it wouldn't be a wasted move.

edit: can we make aether true to the game where ike heals half the damage he deals? lol.

 

[Rykoshet]

Hey there Ryko,

Ike's grab game is passable as it is, I won't deny that at all. It's probably one of the bottom five in terms of usefulness to the character though. I played for around 5 hours of just BBrawl today too (With an assortment of people and characters, however) and I could still feel the glaring limitations that arise when Ike is presented with a properly placed shield. While I certainly don't expect too much to happen to Ike I still don't feel like he has reached the "Diddy" level they were aiming for at the start. He's quite mobile now and it's hard to gimp him (not to mention he lives 2% longer since using QD instantly has mild momentum cancelling properties). I maintain that it certainly wouldn't hurt to, at the very least, increase his pummel damage to 4% and to give him a Down Throw that allows tech chases. The main problem with Ike is that he needs versatility in some areas and I believe those two will do it.

And as for Roy's frame data, I truly cannot remember what it was. If you would care to refresh my memory, that'd be great. I have no qualms about leaving the data intact, by the way. It's meant to be high risk/reward after all and would suit Ike to a T.

I meant that if ike's counter hits as hard as roy's, it should stay as slow as it is now. That move sends at an ungodly trajectory and even countering a tilt would stand to KO a light character if theyre near the side of the stage. As for shielding, this is mostly an issue with short characters. Ike's bair is safe on block and if you're being shielded you have plenty of options with ike's main stay setup. Yeah if you go into fair or nair with piss poor spacing you're going to get destroyed for it but I don't think the character should get away with murder when it comes to shield pressure when you consider just how hard he hits when he gets through.

 

[Dark Sonic]

For those of you suggesting changes to Ike's counter, invincibility frames on moves currently cannot be edited in duration or position (if it's on say frame 5-10, it will STAY on frame 5-10 no matter how much you manipulate the speed of the move). This means it won't coincide with the counter frames (if you can even move those in the first place, as I fear they have the same problem as invincibility frames). So multihit moves would go through the counter (and I'm not talking about Bowser's fire breath. I'm talking abou things like Pit's nair, TL's up B, Ike's up B, ect.) Not that it affects much...but still be aware of it (if they can even move it in the first place, which I can't stress enough).

You also cannot edit the multiplier on counters so...no dice there either.

 

[Ryo242]

The people that made this really liked Ganondorf. ._.

...what? You think I'm just going to leave the post like that? Naw, I'll comment.

I absolutely love that you gave my character a better recovery so that he can't be gimped as easily. Yes Ike. I would love to quick draw in the air a few times to psyche out my opponents. I would also love to play as the new Ganondorf in this, because quite frankly: He sounds like a scary *** lord of evil that is competent now.

._. If you guys want to continue to buff Ike, I have no objections. Make his throws a little better in knockback or stun.


>_> I also like what Brawl+ does to Ike. F-airs ****. >.<d

 

[Browny]

Except the % buff on dtilt and dair could be so much better used on ftilt and uair. those attacks are far more common. sure it might increase his damage overall but when you land maybe 1 of those attacks (dtilt/dair) per stock... its hardly effective at all

This

Sonic almost never uses dair to attack, so up-ing the damage on that doesn't really DO anything. It has a bad hitbox, a lot of ending lag, and subpar knockback. It's only use is in movement so I don't know why you'd even think adding damage would do anything to it. Gonna have to agree with DJbrowny on that one. I don't know how the other changes would play out for the other characters that are getting negative feedback, but seriously, Sonic's dair is NOT useful for attacking. It's not it's damage that was the problem with it and you left everything BUT what was actually decent to start with exactly the same. Oh btw, Sonic's spring is not a meteor smash (unless you suddenly found a way to make meteor smashes. Changing the angle to 270 actually makes it a true spike, not a meteor). It's just pathetically weak which is why you can recover from it. The old angle is arguably more useful in practice because it puts the opponent in a less favorable position (it sends them out which makes it take longer to get to the stage, giving Sonic more time to get back down and finish the edgeguard). Straight up giving it a bigger base would be far more useful (this is currently just a gimmick that would only affect a few matchups at best).

and this

GAME CHANGER in the form of a buffed spring spike (which already spiked) which is completely avoidable by MC'ing and +1 damage to some rarely used attacks?

and this

Its equivalent to nerfing Wario utilt and saying 'we nerfed him, hes balanced now' after removing the GR problems. but no you reduced the damage on two of his most high damage spammable attacks (good ) because that actually WILL make a difference. Sonic needs a buff just like every other low tier character. his current changes are pathetic. no offense or anything, you just didnt buff the right moves imo (unlike ike, ness, link, PT etc)

 

[Poltergust]

You won't be able to chaingrab with Yoshi anymore, and you can't follow up with and grab releases. This makes his grab game worse than it was before.

That sucks. That took a good chunk of his meta-game away.

How about giving Yoshi real OoS options? I mean, it's nice how much you buffed him and stuff, but grabs were pretty central to Yoshi and you guys took that away. OoS options would be awesome, though, and it would definitely make him more viable than he is now.

 

[YagamiLight]

I meant that if ike's counter hits as hard as roy's, it should stay as slow as it is now. That move sends at an ungodly trajectory and even countering a tilt would stand to KO a light character if theyre near the side of the stage. As for shielding, this is mostly an issue with short characters. Ike's bair is safe on block and if you're being shielded you have plenty of options with ike's main stay setup. Yeah if you go into fair or nair with piss poor spacing you're going to get destroyed for it but I don't think the character should get away with murder when it comes to shield pressure when you consider just how hard he hits when he gets through.

Testing will determine the proper frames for Ike's counter and damage output but I guess I don't have any problems with it being it's current speed. Alternatively Umbreon's idea to make it Marth's counter could also be a valuable idea.

And yeah, I mainly meant the small grab buffs for short characters, such as Olimar. I'm well aware of the options Ike has at times but I honestly don't think that he should have to settle on a slow 3% pummel and 6% throws (especially on some short characters who you can't Bthrow combo on) just because he can cause a lot of pain if he gets in. I personally don't see a huge problem with changing the way his Down Throw works to give him more options and slightly buffing the damage output. It can only really be figured out by testing though, so please don't consider it a sign of rudeness if I disagree with you on this issue.

For those of you suggesting changes to Ike's counter, invincibility frames on moves currently cannot be edited in duration or position (if it's on say frame 5-10, it will STAY on frame 5-10 no matter how much you manipulate the speed of the move). This means it won't coincide with the counter frames (if you can even move those in the first place, as I fear they have the same problem as invincibility frames). So multihit moves would go through the counter (and I'm not talking about Bowser's fire breath. I'm talking abou things like Pit's nair, TL's up B, Ike's up B, ect.) Not that it affects much...but still be aware of it (if they can even move it in the first place, which I can't stress enough).

Oh, that's a bother.

 

[MrEh]

Bowser's Fsmash should cleave shields in half.

That would be awesome.

 

[iProdigy101]

Words can't explain how excited this baby is gonna be...

 

[adumbrodeus]

Bowser's Fsmash should cleave shields in half.

That would be awesome.

Could he actually do that? That would be awesome!


Seriously though, treat it like shieldbreaker, it's mad slow anyway. I'll wait till I can play around with the changes a bit more, but without his grab release, seems like Bowser needs this.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Shield damage isn't something we figured out how to directly edit. It certainly would be an interesting parameter to mess with though.

This is probably my last post in this topic for quite a while. 28 pages is not a bad first day!

 

[ffdgh]

wow a guy leaves for a few hours and this turns into a flame debate lol remember peeps, its a beta so expect changes

but enough of that. Is this a glitch or intentional? when a character is under the influence of a timer, they gain some weird speed boosts O_o for example if i use fire fox/bird/wolf? the can zoom over a whole stage to their death XD same goes for all characters moves including super high up Bs

you all secretly did some changes to items too? XD

 

[Rykoshet]

11 pages with good settings <_< that lower ppp is kinda ridiculous.

On another note, I get that this was kind of the point, but I feel that snake's up tilt downgrade was too drastic. In regular brawl I always erred on the high side of % to up tilt my opponent, generally doing it 20-30% later than I should, but I was kind of taken aback by seeing toon link only die to my up tilt at 175 after connection, that was kind of pushing it.

 

[_clinton]

I just got done testing this thing (done on FD at the center point with a Mario set to control with no movement from the other player of course)

I have several things I found cool about it...but I'll just start with my mains...

Ness' bat new kill range from your damage buff...
71-116

It still sucks as a move overall...to compare DK's Fsmash kills at 72-78% and they pretty much come out on the same speed (but DK's has more range as well) Lucas' kills at 92% as well...if you wanted the counter example...
This Fsmash buff is overall better than some of the others I've seen though (one had a kill range of 58-73%)

PK Flash's kill power
The lowest point is at 41% when it is at full power...which is good...overall I don't have any issue with this buff...to compare PKT2's strong point killed at 33%

Overall I don't see the point of the yoyo buff...people can still avoid the large hit on it somewhat...personally IMO if you wanted to fix Ness' yoyo you would have to break some of your rules when it comes to movement speed IMO (the move just comes out too slow and recovers too slow)

I feel you should have buffed Ness' air game more...

The PK Fire buff seems ok so far...however I'm not 100% on it yet...

Also...I'm aware that you guys aren't really willing to change certain things by that much except for in rare cases like with Luigi's fireball...but have you ever looked at just how bad Ness' magnet truly is?

Looking into Lucas...

His jab combo doing 12% from 10% is badass...he already had a 2 frame jab and you just made it that much better...
His Bair can kill sooner and the spike is a lot stronger as well...personally I feel Fair would have been more deserving of that kill option as far as % goes...but whatever
PK Fire snipes better because of the damage buff of course...

I really think Ftilt could use a buff...it is a great move already...but it could be better if it did more %...

Also...Lucas' pummel was the best one in this game already...and it can always be better as well...

I don't really care much for PK Freeze's buff...
It isn't like PK Flash...where you can kill them at 41% if they **** up with you...granted it could maybe gimp now...but the move has a slower warm up and longer cool down time when compared to PK Flash's...so even the mind games for the Freeze are more limited (plus PK Flash has a much better vertical range going on it as well)...
My point is...you don't have to hit with PK Flash for it to have some use (even if it is limited) but with PK Freeze...you do have more pressure when it comes to landing the hit with it...

Also...their Dtilts have a high trip rate already...why not just go all the way with them?

Also...would it be asking too much for the official code sets to have the texture hack codes in them?

 

[ffdgh]

the new thing i like about pk freeze tho is that it sends the opponent further back in an arch angle

 

[Rykoshet]

Ergh sorry double post.

 

[TEECO]

Just checked this out for the first time and it seems awesome.

I'll probably try this out sometime this week and will leave feed back when I do

 

[_X_]

Amazing.

Honestly, will this huge effort really change the scene?

 

[Flayl]

About Bowser, buffing the DAir seems like an excellent way to help him, but without changing startup or lag there is no point.

Also:

-More damage on up smash (+2/3%)

Not needed

-More damage on forward tilt (11%) -> (13%)

Not needed

-More damage on up tilt (12%) -> (13%)

Not needed

-More damage on second jab (5%) -> (6%)

Not needed

-More damage on dash attack (11% or 8%) -> (12% or 10%)

Not needed

-More damage on forward aerial (+1%)

Not needed

-More damage on neutral aerial (14% or 9%) -> (16% or 11%)

Not needed

Bowser DOES NOT need random damage buffs. If you wanted to buff something besides DAir, try ungimping his FSmash so it kills as early as other heavyweights. Add super armor frames to Bowser Bomb to allow us to bomb the ledge and thus get back on stage easier.

Bowser does not have problems dealing damage.

 

[ffdgh]

well the people will decide lol. the more takers, the higher the chance and profit

 

[Mit]

I am so incredibly in favor of this project. I've been whining at Brawl+ people forever that someone should hack together a version of Brawl that plays just like Brawl, only balanced. While I have a few minor qualms with things here and there, I'm mostly okay with everything so far, and will need to actually try it out first before properly complaining about stuff. But so far I say keep up the good work. I would try and get individual groups of character mains to comment on the character changes across the boards, and see if there's anything that might need to be changed.

 

[ffdgh]

lol i wanna have a few online matches when this topic becomes active again

 

[_X_]

lol i wanna have a few online matches when this topic becomes active again

Almost 30 pages in a day seems pretty active to me...

 

[ffdgh]

lol i know
i mean when the /informers/debaters/haters/flamers/testers come back again XD

 

[Zodac]

edit: learn to read

brawl+ haters will have nothing to hate now

 

[Mattnumbers]

Between the two of you you can't possibly main all the characters so I have to say that I doubt that this will meet any success until you get more people on board (IE actual mains of the characters you change)

Also I think you're much too conservative to possibly balance all the characters. The balance gap was not small in Brawl, and you need bigger changes to make a big enough impact to do more than make a game only slightly more balanced than Brawl (and thus not worth it to switch to).

Really I'm just sad that this is even here because the smash community can't really be split any more. We already have three factions, this will just make things worse for those that aren't Brawl purists but have already found a different smash game.

 

[_clinton]

Bowser DOES NOT need random damage buffs. If you wanted to buff something besides DAir, try ungimping his FSmash so it kills as early as other heavyweights. Add super armor frames to Bowser Bomb to allow us to bomb the ledge and thus get back on stage easier.

Bowser does not have problems dealing damage.

Adding % to a move adds to the moves knockback...so in truth the guy's are making things like Bowser's Usmash/Utilt kill at a lower % as well...

 

[ffdgh]

...bowser actually being a threat at lower percents is a good idea lol. it even helps against characters in his weight league

 

[Zodac]

if you getby snakes 3rd jab, learn to play, you can just hold shield and it will powershield it

 

[Flayl]

Adding % to a move adds to the moves knockback...so in truth the guy's are making things like Bowser's Usmash/Utilt kill at a lower % as well...

Those moves don't need buffing, that's the point. FSmash does.

 

[ffdgh]

yeah his side smash is a damage dealer but its not a rocket sender

 

[Rykoshet]

if you getby snakes 3rd jab, learn to play, you can just hold shield and it will powershield it

I dont know about you but I used it in a situation where they couldn't shield anyway, mainly holding A if I knew they were going to ledge hop.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

This is a great idea.

What are the chances you guys could get ZSS' jab combo to connect? heh

I mean, the jab is a huge part of her game and yet it's broken. Very frustrating.

BTW, the only way to make fsmash worth using is to make it faster or let it start combos. We'd still never, ever use it even after the buffs you gave it.

 

[lcampoy8]

nvm i it works : ) i like the new ike

 

[Zodac]

I dont know about you but I used it in a situation where they couldn't shield anyway, mainly holding A if I knew they were going to ledge hop.

so they ran into to it? while you where standing there holding A? LOL

does not need changing.

can some one please help me? When i put the codes in it says i have TOO MANY LINES! wtf this is the same thing the happened when i tried to play B+ someone please help me i wanna play this !

update your gecko os

 

[Rykoshet]

so they ran into to it? while you where standing there holding A? LOL

You're about to question the viability of holding a frame three move in a situation where you can read an opponent's tendencies?

Ike's fsmash hits on frame 29 and you know for **** sure I'm gonna use that piece of crap if I can bank on an opponent's reaction.

Cut the pretentiousness, ****'s played out.