Meta Australian Smash 4 General Ruleset Discussion

[Karnu]

And pokemon is a TERRIBLE competitive game.

Here here

 

[Pazx]

attila confirmed for hating fun

 

[Karnu]

attila confirmed for hating fun

@Attila confirmed no fun when he taught me the real Lucas ditto MU

 

[Jamwa]

Woops didnt mean to post, phone is hard.

 

[Pete278]

Really, what would someone who enjoys Brawl know about competition anyway?

 

[Attila_]

Really, what would someone who enjoys Brawl know about competition anyway?

While I'm sure this is playful, it's also horribly incorrect.

Brawl contains most gameplay elements common to most fighting games, but neutral play and precision are more important than normal.

As a side note, I played pokemon competitively for ages, and am generally well regarded in the pokemon community. So I think I am more informed than 99% of people when I question the games legitimacy as a competitive game.

That aside, I'm pleased with the Apex ruleset. I'd expect the stagelist to gradually get more conservative, and (eventually) the game will probably move to one stock. But I'm happy to wait for these things.

 

[Pazx]

You expect the stage list to become even more conservative? Apex's stage list is incredibly conservative as it is. Is that something you expect or want?

 

[luke_atyeo]

Attila, what is wrong with your brain?

 

[Dekar289]

You expect the stage list to become even more conservative? Apex's stage list is incredibly conservative as it is. Is that something you expect or want?

conservative would be the neutrals only. every cp stage in the apex ruleset has jankiness

 

[Pazx]

conservative would be the neutrals only. every cp stage in the apex ruleset has jankiness

Mate Dream Land, FoD, Yoshi's Story and PS1 have jankiness and nobody disputes their legality in Melee. A 3 stage list wouldn't just be conservative, it would be an awful decision ignoring what the new game has to offer and I have enough faith in you to assume that you wouldn't actually want that.

 

[Splice]

Mate Dream Land, FoD, Yoshi's Story and PS1 have jankiness and nobody disputes their legality in Melee. A 3 stage list wouldn't just be conservative, it would be an awful decision ignoring what the new game has to offer and I have enough faith in you to assume that you wouldn't actually want that.

The 'jank' in stages like Delfino Plaza isn't really comparable to the elements on Yoshi's Story and Dreamland. Melee is unfortunate that it only has 7 stages (im including Kongo 64) that aren't total garbage and 2 of those (Kongo 64 and PS1) are still pretty terrible. Smash 4 has more stages that seem pretty good, but it's even more unnecessary then to start including stages that I would put in the "still pretty terrible" category, such as Castle Siege.

A conservative stagelist using Dave's Stupid Rule ideally has 7 stages in my belief. This is so that bans can still exist in a best of 5 set. I also feel that ~7 stages provides appropriate variety

I'm not sure if Attila is hoping for this but if all the CP's were removed except Halberd, Town and City, Duck Hunt and Kongo 64 I think this would be ideal (from a conservative perspective) because it makes 7 stages total and all the other stages appear to be in a "different tier" in terms of their straying from core gameplay. I don't think you'd have to choose between stages because there are exactly 7 before things start to become a little less objective. I'm sure some people might feel Delfino to be less crazy than Duck Hunt and K64 but I think they might be misguided about how much certain things alter gameplay.

You could definitely expect it to end up with less stages than 7 though; 3 stages total was common in Brawl rulesets and was the prominent stagelist in Japan. The new game has lots of things to offer, including a seemingly balanced and nice conservative stagelist option. The way I see it, conservative is always going to be more competitive since it puts more emphasis on each little aspect of the general gameplay, so it's not as simple as saying it's an "awful decision" considering the nature of the community.

 

[dean.]

You expect the stage list to become even more conservative? Apex's stage list is incredibly conservative as it is. Is that something you expect or want?

I'm with you PazX. Bring back Pilotwings.

 

[Pazx]

The 'jank' in stages like Delfino Plaza isn't really comparable to the elements on Yoshi's Story and Dreamland. Melee is unfortunate that it only has 7 stages (im including Kongo 64) that aren't total garbage and 2 of those (Kongo 64 and PS1) are still pretty terrible. Smash 4 has more stages that seem pretty good, but it's even more unnecessary then to start including stages that I would put in the "still pretty terrible" category, such as Castle Siege.

A conservative stagelist using Dave's Stupid Rule ideally has 7 stages in my belief. This is so that bans can still exist in a best of 5 set. I also feel that ~7 stages provides appropriate variety

I'm not sure if Attila is hoping for this but if all the CP's were removed except Halberd, Town and City, Duck Hunt and Kongo 64 I think this would be ideal (from a conservative perspective) because it makes 7 stages total and all the other stages appear to be in a "different tier" in terms of their straying from core gameplay. I don't think you'd have to choose between stages because there are exactly 7 before things start to become a little less objective. I'm sure some people might feel Delfino to be less crazy than Duck Hunt and K64 but I think they might be misguided about how much certain things alter gameplay.

You could definitely expect it to end up with less stages than 7 though; 3 stages total was common in Brawl rulesets and was the prominent stagelist in Japan. The new game has lots of things to offer, including a seemingly balanced and nice conservative stagelist option. The way I see it, conservative is always going to be more competitive since it puts more emphasis on each little aspect of the general gameplay, so it's not as simple as saying it's an "awful decision" considering the nature of the community.

I'm not a huge fan of walkoffs (ie. Delfino) but he claimed every CP stage including Duck Hunt and Lylat have jank, both of which are on comparable levels to YS. Melee definitely does suffer from the small number of viable stages which should be a non-issue in Sm4sh. I genuinely think it would be unacceptable for this game to end up with a stage list composed of just 3 stages when Duck Hunt, Town and City, KJ64 and Lylat are all good stages. I know the stage list will likely shrink but given that the game is still in it's infancy I don't think starting off with a conservative list is the right idea.

You mention Delfino being a potential 7th/8th stage but I can't help but think people rating Delfino over Skyloft (for example) is a product of familiarity with the stage. In my opinion, Skyloft has less "bad" transformations than Delfino and a large indicator of when the stage is taking off again, a mechanic that in itself reduces the effectiveness of walkoff camping (irrelevant in a Skyloft vs Delfino discussion but it's a point brought up against the stage frequently when it really shouldn't be considered). If we start with a more conservative list featuring Delfino but not Skyloft, we miss out on the chance of a stage that might even be better ever being played competitively.

If your (or a conservative's) ideal number of stages is 7 then starting with a low number is a bad idea. In this game we have at least 12 stages that have some competitive merit (with about 10 of them bringing something unique and making their possible inclusion worthwhile), ruling them out already when the game was released less than a month ago can only be detrimental to later iterations of stage lists. It is for this reason that I'd consider APEX 2015 only running 3 stages to be an awful decision. If, later on in the game's lifespan, we decide that 5 or 6 or 7 or 8 is the ideal number of stages for this game then at least that will be a decision the community came to after a period of time playing with stages that more conservative players would be quick to write-off otherwise.

Also GGs for Zeal, you probably deserved to beat me.

I'm with you PazX. Bring back Pilotwings.

I dunno who started capitalising the X but I can run with it. rip pilotwings 2014-2014

 

[Dekar289]

wasn't necessaririly throwing my support behind a 3-stage list, just pointing out what a conservative list really is. (any list with walkoff stages is certainly very liberal)
in japan for a long time the brawl stages were FD, BF and Smashville IIRC, and I think that's a great list, zero jank to interfere with actual smash play (even if that play involves ridiculous matchups/chaingrabs on fd)
i also agree that it'd be silly to start with a stagelist like this for smash 4, but I do think the apex ruleset will shrink a lot in the future.

 

[Splice]

I'm not a huge fan of walkoffs (ie. Delfino) but he claimed every CP stage including Duck Hunt and Lylat have jank, both of which are on comparable levels to YS. Melee definitely does suffer from the small number of viable stages which should be a non-issue in Sm4sh. I genuinely think it would be unacceptable for this game to end up with a stage list composed of just 3 stages when Duck Hunt, Town and City, KJ64 and Lylat are all good stages. I know the stage list will likely shrink but given that the game is still in it's infancy I don't think starting off with a conservative list is the right idea.

You mention Delfino being a potential 7th/8th stage but I can't help but think people rating Delfino over Skyloft (for example) is a product of familiarity with the stage. In my opinion, Skyloft has less "bad" transformations than Delfino and a large indicator of when the stage is taking off again, a mechanic that in itself reduces the effectiveness of walkoff camping (irrelevant in a Skyloft vs Delfino discussion but it's a point brought up against the stage frequently when it really shouldn't be considered). If we start with a more conservative list featuring Delfino but not Skyloft, we miss out on the chance of a stage that might even be better ever being played competitively.

If your (or a conservative's) ideal number of stages is 7 then starting with a low number is a bad idea. In this game we have at least 12 stages that have some competitive merit (with about 10 of them bringing something unique and making their possible inclusion worthwhile), ruling them out already when the game was released less than a month ago can only be detrimental to later iterations of stage lists. It is for this reason that I'd consider APEX 2015 only running 3 stages to be an awful decision. If, later on in the game's lifespan, we decide that 5 or 6 or 7 or 8 is the ideal number of stages for this game then at least that will be a decision the community came to after a period of time playing with stages that more conservative players would be quick to write-off otherwise.

I was never suggesting Delfino should be legal, I was using it as an example of a stage that people think is on par or better than K64 and T&C etc. but certainly isn't. Your argument about Skyloft vs. Delfino is not relevant and I think you're wrong anyway but yeah I expect both to be phased out of Major rulesets in future. Also I can't quite figure how you rate Lylat > Halberd, have you tried to get more familiar with Halberd? It's hazards are easily dealt with.

And you've completely misunderstood, no-one has said that Apex 2015 should only have 3 stages. Attila said he expects it to get more conservative in future which is exactly in line with your train of thought about "later on in the game's lifespan..."
It appears your thoughts are based on a misinterpretation

Our set was pretty trash I let you counterpick me twice, I didn't know/remember I can swap character after the stage is picked otherwise I would never have gone Bowser on K64. I should've just picked Diddy when you changed to Diddy in game 3 after I CP'd Smashville but I didn't do that either.

 

[Pazx]

The Skyloft vs Delfino argument is very relevant as we're discussing our current stage list and it was suggested we follow Apex which has both, and with your ideal 7 stages we'd play on neither. Halberd was my favourite stage in Brawl and I still like it and think it should definitely be legal, I just wouldn't make it legal before I made Lylat (which is arguably a starter) legal. For me, if we were going conservatively, I'd pick this, probably with 2 bans:
BF
FD
SV
T&C
Duck Hunt
KJ64
Lylat
Halberd
Skyloft
Castle Siege

I know nobody suggested Apex run 3 stages but Dekar brought it up as an example of a conservative list (when that is clearly a very extreme example on the end of the spectrum) attempting to discredit my claim that the current list is conservative.

You could have picked the stage and I'd still have won against your Bowser.

 

[Gords]

I also like what @ Splice is saying about having 7 stages. this will become a lot easier to manage once the miiverse stage is released.
In my opinion, it is at that time we should take the conservative 7 stage path with
battlefield, Omega/FD, smashville, town and city, miiverse, duck hunt and lylat.
hopefully miiverse will have different enough properties to battlefield to play slightly differently (like yoshi to battlefield in melee)

until then i dont mind all these other stages such as delfino and halberd, as it will show that the 7 above stages are actually better for competition

 

[Splice]

You could have picked the stage and I'd still have won against your Bowser.

I'm not trying to be a ********, if you could refrain from doing that it'd be sick.
That's not what I was suggesting; K64 is very good for Greninja so you'd have CP'd yourself if I went to Greninja at that point

And the reason Dekar discredited your claim is because you were wrong. The current list is not conservative. 3 stages is an example of a conservative ruleset, Dekar never suggested they should use it so why are you arguing with him about it?

Didn't realise we were going to get a Miiverse stage. I guess the argument that's gonna come up his Halberd vs. Lylat at some point, we'll probs just end up with more than 7 stages. I'm not sure how you guys are having undisrupted games on Lylat

 

[Pazx]

A moderate stage list would have around 11-12 legal stages, which is almost where the Apex one is at. However having only 3 starters is enough to consider it conservative in my eyes. Having only 3 legal stages would be incredibly conservative and using it as an example of a "conservative" stagelist implies that every stage list with 4+ stages is not conservative.

 

[PrettyCoolGuy]

This game has ****ed stages. Considering the rule set for miles warehouse 2, would a 7 stage list be an issue that would impact attendance?

 

[TakFR]

I really don't know why I keep looking at this thread, it makes me mad every time I see it

 

[luke_atyeo]

Remember when Canberra only had really cool dudes in it and nothing else... :'< RIP Canberra

 

[Karnu]

Queensland playing on 3 stocks....

Tried to bring customs back

The stage list..

I swear our TO's make the rules to benefit them..

 

[Attila_]

Apex or bust.

At this point, there is little point playing any other way

 

[Venks]

It makes the most sense to me to just use the same ruleset as Apex. So that there is consistency between regions. Though I do expect custom moves to make a comeback eventually.

Seeing as Miis can use custom moves at Apex.

 

[Karnu]

It makes the most sense to me to just use the same ruleset as Apex. So that there is consistency between regions. Though I do expect custom moves to make a comeback eventually.

Seeing as Miis can use custom moves at Apex.

Thats what I prefer, one ruleset everywhere for the sake of consistency and I'd rather be playing on the same terms as everyone else, in this case the terms being rules and stages.

 

[luke_atyeo]

At this point, there is little point playing any other way

there is no point to doing it unless you do it the way I think it should be done - Attila 2014

who even needs to consider things and be open minded, lets just make wild baseless assumptions from day 1 boyz.

 

[DD_]

there is no point to doing it unless you do it the way I think it should be done - Attila 2014

who even needs to consider things and be open minded, lets just make wild baseless assumptions from day 1 boyz.

Can you provide a good argument as to why we shouldn't follow the lead of the bigger scenes in the world? Or more, why you (or others) care so much about Australia deviating from Apex/The US? Like this rule set will allow the best players to win and that's the end goal right? We can end this whole mess of a thread and just get on with playing the game if we "open mindedly" accept that we have a vastly smaller community than a lot of other countries/continents and hence a greater skill gap between the better and worse players. No matter the rule set or how Janky it is i know that over time if i don't improve Attila will still beat me consistently.

We could just scoop on this argument and let the US figure it all out while we play the game. Those overseas threads are always open for foreign input i'm sure but unless there is a solid reason why we shouldn't be following the rest of the world your pokes at Attila aren't achieving anything.

 

[Luco]

If Apex has indeed only banned most customs out of logistical fears then it should be noted that the world is actually beginning to prefer customs. I've already mentioned the poll and the 88% of peeps who want customs legal; and with the system provided by Ampharos/Thinkaman, TO's have begun to successfully run customs legal, large-scale tournaments. What this means is that conforming to an Apex ruleset that is itself likely to change is... debatable, and says to me more that some people just don't want customs and 'oh look the rest of the world isn't doing it (right now) so we shouldn't either' becomes a convenient excuse.

Does having this difference that separates us from the rest of the world for a little bit really matter? I feel like we're all freaking out about that out of habit instead of thinking it through. Customs are a big subject throughout the rest of the world's competitive scene right now - no-one should blame us for using them when groups of people are and others aren't. I re-iterate that if Apex is doing this out of logistics, then we actually have no real precedent to run off. Logistics clearly hasn't been an issue with us - it hasn't been so far and the way things are looking for the next tournament up here, they won't be an issue this time either. I understand maybe it seems a bit radical but my advice would be instead of following a precedent that hasn't been set, why don't we help establish one?

And I mean no disrespect for the peeps i'm disagreeing with here. I hold a heavy respect for most of the people posting here, this subject just happens to be one I've become rather interested in. It should actually be noted that I play a totally default build.

 

[Splice]

If Apex has indeed only banned most customs out of logistical fears then it should be noted that the world is actually beginning to prefer customs. I've already mentioned the poll and the 88% of peeps who want customs legal; and with the system provided by Ampharos/Thinkaman, TO's have begun to successfully run customs legal, large-scale tournaments. What this means is that conforming to an Apex ruleset that is itself likely to change is... debatable, and says to me more that some people just don't want customs and 'oh look the rest of the world isn't doing it (right now) so we shouldn't either' becomes a convenient excuse.

Does having this difference that separates us from the rest of the world for a little bit really matter? I feel like we're all freaking out about that out of habit instead of thinking it through. Customs are a big subject throughout the rest of the world's competitive scene right now - no-one should blame us for using them when groups of people are and others aren't. I re-iterate that if Apex is doing this out of logistics, then we actually have no real precedent to run off. Logistics clearly hasn't been an issue with us - it hasn't been so far and the way things are looking for the next tournament up here, they won't be an issue this time either. I understand maybe it seems a bit radical but my advice would be instead of following a precedent that hasn't been set, why don't we help establish one?

And I mean no disrespect for the peeps i'm disagreeing with here. I hold a heavy respect for most of the people posting here, this subject just happens to be one I've become rather interested in. It should actually be noted that I play a totally default build.

The VIC and NSW scenes have gone through rulesets influenced by the players though. It appears that not just Attila (wow, not JUST Attila??!) but what appears to be most of our player base doesn't really care for customs in VIC. And we've appeared to make no progress in getting VIC and NSW to unite their opinions on customs. The only thing that's really important to me on principal is that VIC and NSW share rulesets.

Suggesting that other peoples decisions are just a "convenient excuse" is not getting the discussion anywhere and has been pretty common in this thread. It's a pretty **** thing to do because it discredits other people's opinion and progress on the topic without you actually providing any logic. It's no lie that the Apex ruleset is agreeable to many VIC players (but not ideal; a lot of us would prefer more conservative stages as well) but we said from pretty early on we would be influenced by the ruleset. The reasons for this are legitimate, with the intention of assisting Aussie players to be ready to compete OoS. If you want to influence the discussion in favor of customs, than you should refrain from putting words into the mouths of others and implying conspiracy.
If you hold a heavy respect for people than why do you assume that their decisions are based on laziness?
How are people supposed to give a damn about what you think when at the start of your post you ignore their reasoning about feeling that customs are worse for competitive play, aren't proven to be more balanced, following America can be beneficial to prolonging competitive play and Apex is considered a pinnacle Smash event, by dismissing it as "convenient excuse".

Anyway are you looking for closure, no-ones blaming you/NSW for using customs. If it's working well for you that's cool, and VIC is doing nice without them. I think a lot of players would appreciate if the OTHER scene would conform to their ruleset, but we're still not in agreement so looking to the decisions of American majors can be helpful to make decisions for us. If it's true that customs are going to become the norm or it appears to be going that way, than that is a concern we should consider too, and you can expect us to cross that bridge when we get to it

 

[Luco]

The VIC and NSW scenes have gone through rulesets influenced by the players though. It appears that not just Attila (wow, not JUST Attila??!) but what appears to be most of our player base doesn't really care for customs in VIC. And we've appeared to make no progress in getting VIC and NSW to unite their opinions on customs. The only thing that's really important to me on principal is that VIC and NSW share rulesets.

Suggesting that other peoples decisions are just a "convenient excuse" is not getting the discussion anywhere and has been pretty common in this thread. It's a pretty **** thing to do because it discredits other people's opinion and progress on the topic without you actually providing any logic. It's no lie that the Apex ruleset is agreeable to many VIC players (but not ideal; a lot of us would prefer more conservative stages as well) but we said from pretty early on we would be influenced by the ruleset. The reasons for this are legitimate, with the intention of assisting Aussie players to be ready to compete OoS. If you want to influence the discussion in favor of customs, than you should refrain from putting words into the mouths of others and implying conspiracy.
If you hold a heavy respect for people than why do you assume that their decisions are based on laziness?
How are people supposed to give a damn about what you think when at the start of your post you ignore their reasoning about feeling that customs are worse for competitive play, aren't proven to be more balanced, following America can be beneficial to prolonging competitive play and Apex is considered a pinnacle Smash event, by dismissing it as "convenient excuse".

Anyway are you looking for closure, no-ones blaming you/NSW for using customs. If it's working well for you that's cool, and VIC is doing nice without them. I think a lot of players would appreciate if the OTHER scene would conform to their ruleset, but we're still not in agreement so looking to the decisions of American majors can be helpful to make decisions for us. If it's true that customs are going to become the norm or it appears to be going that way, than that is a concern we should consider too, and you can expect us to cross that bridge when we get to it

How do you "prove" that customs are more balanced? How do you disprove it? I don't assume your reasoning for customs has been based on laziness; but I think its problematic that you've ignored the argument that it's very very likely Apex has banned customs due to logistics with the evidence being in their mii rules. I also addressed your argument earlier about whether customs were worse or better for competitive play and whether a more complex game lended itself to long-term competitive appeal and seemed to get no response. Does it make sense then that I feel frustrated because it feels like my opinions aren't being heard or listened to? Have I missed a response to these arguments? I'll go back and check again for you to be sure. It felt like people had been ignoring what we'd been saying and that came across to me as... I don't even know. But I'm sorry, I don't think you guys are lazy or looking for convenient excuses and I don't want to come across that way.

Back to my point though, looking to American majors is only helpful if they are shaping up their rulesets for the long haul. I'll reshape my argument to say that we should wait until a confirmation as to why customs were banned for Apex has been made before we jump to conclusions, yet it's still fair to say it's a possibility at this stage given the situation with the Mii's.

EDIT: As far as I can see, the argument on Apex's ruling seemed to get sidetracked on the competitiveness of Pokemon.

EDIT2: And the one where I addressed your argument earlier was stopped early when we started discussing Atyeo's ruleset. Which is fine, but i'm just pointing out that it didn't get addressed.

 

[Attila_]

To the best of my knowledge, most vocal top players agree that customs are not beneficial to competitive play (m2k, zero, nakat), which is a sentiment expressed by most Melbourne players also.

I also agree with splice that a more conservative stage last is desired by most of the Melbourne scene. But as stated, I'll hold out on that one.

Otherwise, it should be noted that the logistic issue exists outside of tourneys also ; unlocking moves to work out counter play is an incredibly large pain in the ass.

 

[Lex__]

Can we get sources on all these claims, not only from atilla but also the apex ruleset claim that its just logistics?

 

[Luco]

As far as we know Apex hasn't made a statement regarding customs - I'm referring to the indication that it was logistics by allowing the miis to use their 2222 and 3333 sets. This would likely indicate that they're willing to use customs if they aren't a chore to work around talking logistically. Considering Piston Punch is one of these, that would be a reasonably big deal. The way I see it, if they allow Piston Punch, one of the most controversial custom moves, then chances are they don't believe custom moves will make the game less competitive.

I went and looked and as CBP mentioned it (the ruleset) hasn't been changed. I believe other people in the scene would be more qualified to verify that miis can use 2222/3333 than I. @ Gords do you know where this discussion can be found or is it just something you've heard of through the vine?

 

[Splice]

Can we get sources on all these claims, not only from atilla but also the apex ruleset claim that its just logistics?

What, you're not ok with arguments based around assumptions supported only by stretches of logic?

Sherluco Holmes 8) over here seems to be. Luco since the initial ruleset only allowed miis to use 1111 it should be pretty obvious that they were against customs on the whole from the start, if they have allowed 2222 and 3333 sets then I don't think the first conclusion you would draw is that they've completely back-flipped. Right or wrong most of what you say is based on assumptions about Apex reasoning without any verification from Apex officials, and assumptions of the logic of people supporting Apex ruleset in this thread, so it's not very encouraging to respond since you could very likely be wrong about everything.

 

[Shaya]

I'm increasingly able to count on Splice to be a hypocrite (not like we aren't all hypocrites) in favour of his region. I don't mind the defending, especially on ignorant or inappropriate statements.
But Jesus.
Any argument against customs said here has been excessively shallow, hence our inference of laziness, want to show us otherwise?
For you to try to turn the argument over as us being disrespectful or otherwise is asinine. Most of your arguments are an emotional defensive response or "assumptions" (pot, kettle, black) and the rest won't even admit they aren't vested in the decision-making (I doubt you're willing to lie to me about how much time/research/etc you've put into them).

ZeRo's reasons for not wanting customs - "look at sheik! [needles that do major shield damage/stronger down b/etc]" (I asked him if he looked at customs for anyone else or even really played with or against them, the answer was no).
M2K is actually pro-customs (on the logic that it expands the game/options/depth); he's said this on stream. But he's in no different situation than ZeRo in which he hasn't really seen/played them.
Nakat has. That's one solid opinion.

Anyway, I don't really care what the apex rules are (; there are enough good characters to learn, especially sub 2 months into the game). But if someone is going to confidently state that their reasons for disliking customs are the reasons Apex don't have them I'm going to revolt.
I have not touched customs since being in the States, I knew they wouldn't be at apex from very early on. This may or may not be the stake in the heart of customs, status quo effect hasn't really shown any reversal in rule decisions ever. But heck, Nintendo may release the full save file for tournament organisers with all customs unlocked, they're aware that's what we want to resolve a lot of issues. When they're given a second shot (heck potentially @ Evo) post Apex, you better be willing to actually get a balanced and fair opinion of them so I can actually trust your perspectives. I'm not 100%-pro customs, but I'm not willing to let them die forever without proper attempts, I'm willing to even go down the path of banning individual customs, if it's a better game (I don't know if it would be) it will be worth it.

 

[Attila_]

kk, let's sort some things out.

1. I disliked customs way before the Apex ruleset was announced. I have not heard any official reasons to the customs ban, nor have I heard any confirmation/rationale for the pseudo customs rule.

2. Customs do present a strong logistical problem that extends outside of the tournaments. It is significantly harder to practice against customs, and a player would need to dedicate an absurd amount of time before they are able to practice against the customs at home. I cannot see Nintendo attempting to remedy this; a denial of further balancing and an earlier statement from Sakurai questioning the 'fairness' of custom moves both show Nintendo's lack of interest in custom moves and the competitive community.

3. The counterpicking process becomes even more favoured, as counterpicking characters AND custom sets to counter an opponent would be allowed. I feel hard counters would become too strong, and the first game of a set would become even more important (and first game is already really important).

4. Whatever Apex says the rules are, we should follow. If Apex wanted customs, I would support customs at this point. If that's where the global metagame is headed, we'd be foolish not to follow suit. Falling behind or splinting is not something we can afford to do.

5. I've discussed this in person with most of the veteran Melbourne playing group, and the vote is overwhelmingly against customs moves, mostly for reasons of jankiness or illegitimacy. This isn't an opinion I share alone.

6. While I do not think there are any custom moves that are 'unbeatable', there are a number of custom moves that I feel bring about aspects of the game that I would deem 'anti-competitive', and are detrimental to the development of a healthy metagame and thriving competitive scene. Such examples would be Villager's Slippery Sapling, or the Mii Brawler's Piston Punch. I would also mention that banning individual customs is a serious mess in itself; we couldn't even ban MK during the entire brawl era. What hope do we have sifting through individual moves on an international scale?

 

[Leisha]

Correct me if Im wrong, but another issue with the custom moves also that it takes so long to unlock them on the wiiu version. Its really annoying when you're trying to unlock customs and the game still gives you ones you've already unlocked.(on top of how rare it is to actually even unlock a custom move) :/ Also a pain in the ass when it gives you custom equipment that no one cares about. Although I do like the ROB customs ;o.

Im aware there is the 3ds trick that can move profiles with custom move sets, but then that can be unfair on the player that might not have the 3ds copy of the game and doesn't have access to their character customs due to them being not unlocked on the console. Its a hard one I guess :/ wouldn't be such an issue if the custom moves didn't take like 80+ hours of playtime to unlock stuff. It feels like Ive played that amount of time and haven't even unlocked half the customs >_>.

Bah

 

[EverAlert]

Having a 3DS doesn't make it any easier to unlock moves, it just changes what system you do it on. Anyway, there is a solution to those logistical issues that only requires one person with a 3DS. It remains to be seen how effective it really is, but it's worth a shot.

 

[Splice]

I'm increasingly able to count on Splice to be a hypocrite (not like we aren't all hypocrites) in favour of his region. I don't mind the defending, especially on ignorant or inappropriate statements.
But Jesus.
Any argument against customs said here has been excessively shallow, hence our inference of laziness, want to show us otherwise?
For you to try to turn the argument over as us being disrespectful or otherwise is asinine. Most of your arguments are an emotional defensive response or "assumptions" (pot, kettle, black) and the rest won't even admit they aren't vested in the decision-making (I doubt you're willing to lie to me about how much time/research/etc you've put into them).

My arguments here aren't even trying to defend no-customs, I think that NSW and VIC should use the same rulesets regardless.
Claiming that we are lazy as your argument is shallow and assuming that I'm having an emotional defensive response is also shallow and exactly the type of thing my recent posts have been about; why would I really want to post here if the opposition's primary argument strategy is slander?

How have I even been hypocritical I can't see but it probably has something to do with not being stubborn, but my argument about customs has nothing to do with you guys being disrespectful, I'm just saying that you are. You're acting elite like your opinion matters more just because you're more invested in researching the issue but that doesn't mean your logic is sound.
You haven't provided sources for customs being a "better" game competitively than without them so your opinion is as good as mine there.
You haven't understood the reason we think it's important to follow international ruleset (it's not for the SAME reasons as Apex, it's because we want to be playing the same game as overseas. If Apex claimed their Smash 4 rule set is logistics and would change in the future, then we wouldn't be very swayed i dont think but they haven't actually done that, instead it's been assumed, nice argument not shallow at all)
And most of your posts begin with or are entirely insults

You have made me increasingly able to count on you being a snarky elitist refusing to respect the opinions of the opposition. huehue it's not as effective coz hypocrite is such a strong word to call someone in an argument right but being a **** is ok?