Meta Australian Smash 4 General Ruleset Discussion

[Venks]

Duck Hunt is one of the bigger stages. It's the same size as Halberd when the platform lands onto the ship.

I don't find it anymore difficult to edge guard on than any other stage. I guess the bigger stage makes the edges closer to the blast zone and thus closer to camera's boundaries, but players still have to recover in the same ways. Unless you knock them towards the upper left blast zone. As they fall back down they can land on the tree. But if they had that option they could of just landed on the stage so it's not really that big a deal. I gimp Shulk, Marios, and Fox the exact same ways on this stage that I would on Battlefield or FD. The platform on Smashville prevents more edgeguarding than this stage does.

I'm not really bothered by the tree at all. I was told about how V wrecked Earl on the stage, but it was the complete opposite for me. Battlefield is my most played stage so I'm pretty used to using Rising Uppercut to punish ledge camping. I wrecked V's Villager pretty hard on the stage. Got some really early KOs cus she kept trying to use the tree to drop bowling balls.

The thing I find the most jarring about the stage is the Duck Hunt Dog platform that raises when you knock down ducks. I'm usually so focused on the stage that I don't really notice the ducks so occasionally I'll find myself getting raised into the air from the dog and thus missing a punish I was about to land with a slightly charged smash. Definitely annoying, but it isn't quite as bad as Lylat Cruise's continual tilting which throws off my combos and kill moves much more often.

Overall I think the stage is a nice neutral. The stage is bigger than FD, but the side blast zones are the same distance from the center. The top blast zone is actually smaller. Not significantly so, it's the same as Smashville.

 

[Attila_]

You don't edge guard off stage with Mac... Your argument doesn't work.

 

[Lex__]

Apex ruleset was released source

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/74563582/Apex/Apex2015_Rulebook.pdf

Summary:

General rules that effect smash 4.

Self Destruct Moves: If a match ends with the successful use of a Character’s Self Destruct move, the player that initiated the self destruct move wins the match regardless of what the results screen states.*

Smash 4 ruleset

VI. Super Smash Bros. for Wii U
A. Game Settings
● Stock and time are set to 2 stock and 6 minutes for Singles
● Stock and time are set to 3 stock and 8 minutes for Doubles
● Custom Fighters are set to off
● Mii Fighters are legal. Each setup will have a 1111 Mii
Brawler/Swordsman/Gunner available for use (Using Default A Mii).
No other specials for Mii Fighters will be allowed. Players are not
allowed to transfer existing Miis to a setup.
B. Stage List
Starter Stages
● Battlefield
● Final Destination
● Smashville
Counterpick Stages
● Castle Siege
● Delfino Plaza
● Duck Hunt
● Halberd
● Kongo Jungle 64
● Lylat Cruise
● Town & City
11● Omega Stages*
* Treated as Final Destination in banning phase. If Final Destination is
banned, Omegas are banned and vice versa.
C. Additional Rules
● Stage Striking: The player with port priority strikes one stage from
the Starter Stage list. Then the other player strikes one stage and
the remaining stage is used for the first match.
● Stage Clause: You cannot counterpick a stage that has already
been played on in the set.
● Stage Bans: During the stage ban phase, the player who won the
previous game may ban 2 stages from either the Starter of
Counterpick lists.
● Bowser Jr’s Clown Car Glitch: If the Bowser Jr.’s Clown Car Glitch
happens, players are to pause the match and call a TO or a referee
over to confirm the glitch has happened. Once confirmed, players
will reset the match to the same stocks and get as close to the
percents as they had when the Glitch took place. (The Bowser Jr.
Clown Car Glitch happens when the car respawns after using Up B
right before the player loses their stock. The character starts to
teleport around, also hit boxes and animations for Bowser Jr.
change.)
● Red and Blue are to be used as the two team colors during doubles
matches.

 

[dreadtech]

Custom fighters OFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

Mii Fighters 1-1-1-1 (I've always done vic tourney's with this)

I guess we know where this is going boys

 

[Venks]

You don't edge guard off stage with Mac... Your argument doesn't work.

That might be true if I only played Little Mac. I play Sheik and Donkey Kong as well.

Edit: Apex has only three starters? Ew.

 

[Jei Jei]

Those apex rules are pretty much exactly what I expected with a few more counter picks.

 

[joeyjoeyjoejoe]

Wow, we had the same stage list at our last monthly. Props to Dean and Attila

 

[dean.]

would still like to cut off delfino and castle siege and swap fd and town and city but i'll compromise because the suicide rule is (y)

 

[Attila_]

would still like to cut off delfino and castle siege and swap fd and town and city but i'll compromise because the suicide rule is (y)

soon.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

So apparently, the Mii Fighter rule has changed, but hasn't been updated (as far as I know). Now the Mii fighters can now use either 1111, 2222 or 3333 movesets.

2222 Brawler tho

 

[Gords]

Discussion is also happening to give palutena the same treatment that Miis got.
The change is mainly because their moves are unlocked from the start.
It's almost blatantly clear that customs are banned for Apex due to logistics only

 

[Attila_]

I don't know who made it clear that logistics were the driver of the customs ban.

It could also be because they are non-competitive and serve to undermine the game itself.

Otherwise, for now at least, I recommend that we all play the apex ruleset.

 

[Gords]

A pseudo customs allowed rule set is terrible if your reason for banning them in the first place is because your opinion is that they are non-competitive and undermine the game. The fact they are happy to give other moves some exposure means they see the viability for them in the competitive realm. Either that or they are also dumb

Apex rule set is terrible.
Pseudo customs allowed, 2 stocks, stage Claus
Playing these rules from now on doesn't promote progress.

I will wait for the American summer majors before I consider any rule set with any value. The game has only been out for a month, I don't expect a perfect rule set that has tested all the variables for a while

 

[Attila_]

Explain pseudo customs pls.

 

[M]

Pseudo customs being the choice of the 3 customs sets, but not having full control over which combinations of moves are in them.

 

[Gords]

If logistics is NOT the reason for Apex banning customs then why allow my opponent Mii Brawler use 2222 but not let me use Villager 2222. I would trade rocket loud for lift loid for the ability to use timber counter, garden and exploding balloons any day.

 

[luke_atyeo]

It could also be because they are non-competitive and serve to undermine the game itself.

lol ok buddy, if you want him to defend his statements I want to see you try to defend this one.

 

[Jamwa]

lol ok buddy, if you want him to defend his statements I want to see you try to defend this one.

mayb bcoz customs moves havnt been in smash bfore and mus can change depending customs
also the how does counterpicking customs/characters work. does it give unfair advantages that you can counterpick somone's customs or w/e. blind picks are uncompetitive.
i dont play this game too much, but there might also be customs that are too good to be allowed

 

[Jigglymaster]

If logistics is NOT the reason for Apex banning customs then why allow my opponent Mii Brawler use 2222 but not let me use Villager 2222. I would trade rocket loud for lift loid for the ability to use timber counter, garden and exploding balloons any day.

I'm not really sure how it can't be due to logistics either, regardless, heres my reasoning as to why it is due to logistics.

Letting every fighter use 1111,2222, or 3333 requires the use of a 3DS transfer onto every single setup and also requires for customization to be turned ON. Both of which Mii Fighters don't have to adhere to. Customs are banned because of Logistics. No reason to let Mii fighters' other specials never see the light of day since they're unlocked from the start and don't require customization to be turned ON. Force them into using 1111, 2222, and 3333 and you've effectively split them into 9 different characters (originally 3). Adding everyone else is too difficult this early on since it requires TO's to have multiple 3Ds with everything unlocked and all the loadouts pre-made, which putting on a setup would take 10 minutes (you're adding 2 loadouts for 48 characters, all of which you have to do at a time per character, meaning 48 separate transfers per setup), place that on 30 setups and that's 300 minutes, you see where I'm getting at with this.

There aren't any actual gamebreaking custom moves, tournaments had no trouble running them in the 3DS period. Even so if some people find Piston Punch to be somewhat of a problem, it's in the 3333 loadout which isn't even good for Mii Brawler, he has almost no recovery. The one and only time that PP ever was in a tournament it was beaten by people who had never even known about it before hand, they adapted that quickly and beat it. Now it's paired with bad moves and people have had months to know about it and figure out its obvious weaknesses? It's no threat.

Sorry if I just suddenly butted in this thread and I apologize if my intrusion was rude, I just wanted to place my 2 cents and respond to your question.

 

[Dre89]

It could also be because they are non-competitive and serve to undermine the game itself.

Otherwise, for now at least, I recommend that we all play the apex ruleset.

If that was the case why would they allow the custom movesets that don't provide any logistical difficulty at all

 

[Shaya]

Attila: "Customs are non-competitive and undermine the game" (what does this even mean)
Apex: "We're not going to have customs legal [TOs/rulemakers involved only giving the indication of logistics, if anything in public space]"
Attila: "Thanks Apex for confirming customs are non competitive and undermine the game"

Sometimes the worlds a tad depressing.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Attila: "Customs are non-competitive and undermine the game" (what does this even mean)
Apex: "We're not going to have customs legal [TOs/rulemakers involved only giving the indication of logistics, if anything in public space]"
Attila: "Thanks Apex for confirming customs are non competitive and undermine the game"

Sometimes the worlds a tad depressing.

"Customs are non-competitive and undermine the game"
I would also like to know what this means

To "undermine" something, it usually means to destroy the foundations of something.... So how are are customs moves undermining the game exactly? Its not like they're destroying the game, and if they were, why the hell would MasterHero Sakumai even put them in the game?

Also:

 

[Gords]

mayb bcoz customs moves havnt been in smash bfore

well then we shouldn't include bowser jr, rosalina, villager, mega man, shulk, lucina, dark pit, wii fit trainer, duck hunt, greninja, robin and little mac in tournament either since they haven't been in smash before.

and mus can change depending customs

well then we should play on one stage only since MUs change depending on stages

also the how does counterpicking customs/characters work.

Winner bans stages
Loser picks stage
Winner picks character
Loser picks character
Winner picks customs
Loser picks customs

does it give unfair advantages that you can counterpick somone's customs or w/e. blind picks are uncompetitive.

the above gives no more advantages to what already exists with counter picking characters, blind picking would work exactly the same as it is done now for game 1 only (both players tell a third party their character choice and custom set before selection happens). All custom selections are visible from the CSS when using the code to title the builds. Tournaments should use the sets described in the custom move project and the that any other builds imported from a 3DS be labeled in the same manner, otherwise the custom set should not be allowed (a game loss should apply if the code of a non standard 3ds imported character is found not to match the build, a build from the custom project thread found not to match should be restarted after notifying a TO)

i dont play this game too much, but there might also be customs that are too good to be allowed

well then you should play more with customs and actually learn about them before posting uneducated statements regarding their legality.

 

[cheese619]

Gords is making more sense than any of you. Think about that for a second.

 

[luke_atyeo]

I reported your post for being too good

 

[Venks]

Gords is a way too good right now. There are way too many people shouting out their ignorant opinions on custom moves despite not actually knowing about them. Just cus you played with them on a few times and got wrecked doesn't mean they're too good either.
If someone can actually prove that custom moves cause inconsistent results with top players getting low placings in multiple tournaments then that would be something worth talking about.

 

[Invisi]

I must admit, after experiencing both SC2 (customs allowed) and Zeal (customs banned), I don't feel the banning customs argument is as ridiculous as I initially thought. People simply forget to tell others their customs a lot of the time, and a lot of them seem significantly stronger than the default moves without any real downsides. Zeal ran very smoothly in this regard, turning customs off makes everything a lot easier.

That said, I still think most of the issues are logistical, and these will sort themselves out as people become accustomed to the new format. There aren't any custom moves that turn a character into Brawl MK, so while they do shift the tiers around a bit, it's not game breaking. It adds a whole new level of complexity to learning MUs, but I don't think it's unreasonable to learn how the common custom sets affect your MUs.

I also realise that I'm a bit biased in that I don't actually use any custom moves (most of Jiggs' customs are awful and I don't see any situation where I would use any of them over the default alternatives), so I wasn't particularly disappointed to see that Zeal was a customs banned event. But I can imagine some of the other Sydney players being used to having a different moveset, then having that taken away from them. That said, the converse argument could easily be made by players coming from custom banned regions facing something they have no experience with, so I suppose this is an argument in favour of consistency more than anything else.

 

[Jamwa]

well then you should play more with customs and actually learn about them before posting uneducated statements regarding their legality.

HOLY FUXK THE CIRCLEJERK
Sorry for your misunderstanding, im pretty sure i didnt make any ****ing statements in that post, all of it was a list of possibilities. Just playing devil's advocate to provide some discussion.

No ****ing need to respond like i was attacking anyone, and act so high and mighty after you "prove" my conjecture incorrect instead of just answering.

Holy **** smash 4, sorry for showing some interest, I'm not going to bother trying to facilitate discussion anymore if youre all going to be autistic about it.

Edit2: Retyped into a post.

 

[Shaya]

@ Invisi : Well my Falco can't be going super deep without customs :<
And I can't be dash breaking all the Diddy Kong's to make them fear dash grabs/rolls/dodges.

 

[luke_atyeo]

People simply forget to tell others their customs a lot of the time

... I suppose this is an argument in favour of consistency more than anything else.

reading is too hard.
all you need to do is read their label, or ask them what their moveset is, if you bothered to read gords's rules you'd see that providing an answer to what customs you use is mandatory.
Dont complain about people forgetting to tell you, the onus is you to ask, not them to take the initiative.

You cant argue for consistency when its this early and everybody is doing different things and has different ideas.

HOLY FUXK THE CIRCLEJERK

you're a circlejerk m8

 

[Dre89]

Does anyone else find it odd that Smash players are complaining about having to accommodate for 8 new moves on 51 characters, yet Pokemon players don't complain about having to accommodate for dozens of moves on hundreds of characters.

 

[Jamwa]

If the Winner picks customs after the Loser has picked their character, this is basically letting the Winner counterpick the loser to some degree. This is what has never been in smash before (thanks for **** taking that out of perspective Gords). My question regarding blind picks was not in reference to the 1st game, but games afterwards, because being able to counterpick the Loser could be unfair if the Winner's character possesses customs that change MUs enough to make it favourable (regardless of the customs the Loser's counterpicks).

If this actually turns out to be the case when the metagame develops and something broken is discovered, what would be the solution? Winner picks Char + customs and then loser picks Char + customs? That just means the Loser gets to counter the Winner even more, and is potentially just as unfair.
Blind picks after game 1 are also not a solution because you're basically guessing how to counter your opponent, and anyone could come out on top.

By all means, everyone spaz out that this new fun aspect in the game is being challenged, and you know, let's start referring to the most competitive game out there; POKEMON. If you guys start using Pokemon to back up your arguments, all us nay-sayers are ****ed because we all know it's the pinnacle of a fun, fair and balanced game. How can I Smash Debater against that?

Let me express I'm not against or for customs; I don't play the game. I'm simply interested in how customs will balance out and so I'm sharing my concerns because I haven't seen this considered yet.

 

[luke_atyeo]

spaz out, mate I am on my way to your house right now ****



I think winner picks character and customs at the same time is probably a better way to do it honestly, and counter picking is supposed to give the loser an advantage.

 

[Pazx]

Customs should probably be picked at the same time as character selection if they're legal which is as it should be in my opinion, they offer diversity and balance to the game as well as rewarding knowledge of the game. This post sums up a lot of my feelings on the matter:

A good character is good because they have good moves. Conversely, a bad character is bad because their moves are, comparatively speaking, bad. (Mobility ties into this too, admittedly, but we're focusing on moves here.)

Now let's bring custom moves into the mix.

A good move is not likely to have even better custom options available. It's as if you already rolled a 5 on a 6-sided die and are expecting to roll even higher. It's possible, but unlikely, and odds are you'll just get something worse.

A bad move, on the other hand, has nowhere to go but up. Its custom options are probably better in some form. Recycling the dice analogy, it's as if you rolled a 2 and are hoping to roll higher next time. Again, it's possible to be disappointed (Jigglypuff...) but the odds are in your favor. Statistically speaking, custom moves equalize the cast and bring them closer together on the tier list.

We can see this in action already. Diddy and Sheik, two of the undisputed top tiers, have very lackluster special moves and one could argue that their default 1111 sets are superior to any other options. By contrast, many low tiers can redeem and reinvent themselves with custom moves. Palutena has Super Speed, Samus has Relentless Missiles, Ganondorf has Wizard's Dropkick, and so forth. A lot characters also have an option tucked away that's unusually good for dealing with Rosalina, which helps address a key matchup against one of the most polarizing characters in the game. Even Jigglypuff, generally considered the loser when it comes to custom move selection, finds utility in Hyper Voice over Sing to get Luma out of the way.

And there are no broken custom moves. The closest is Mii Brawler's Piston Punch due to the One-Inch punch technique, but my understanding is that it requires a grab setup, can be escaped with DI, is only a guaranteed kill against lightweights like Jigglypuff, and usually requires a high platform in the first place. That's enough factors to allow for reasonable counterplay.

From a more subjective view, customs allow players to add their own flair to characters. Palutena's best set right now is, I believe, 2322. (Explosive Flame/Super Speed/Jump Glide/Lightweight) However, if a player likes Palutena but not the fast rushdown such a set promotes, then they're free to switch it up, perhaps to 2113. (Explosive Flame/Reflect/Warp/Celestial Firework) Very few characters have such polarizing options that everything else is completely worthless, and a metagame that encourages variety and experimentation is a good thing IMO.

@ Jamwa I don't think any customs at all have been discovered to be incredibly broken and they are simply not as polarising as your hypothetical suggests, most if not all of them can be viewed as a side grade that slightly changes matchups. At worst we have slightly different projectiles, a use for stuff like Ness's Down-B outside of energy-based projectiles (for example) and the choice between more dangerous OOS options or a slightly better recovery.

Also @ Invisi I'm pretty sure Tin stated customs were only banned at Zeal for logistical issues (s/o to you for casting finals with me that was fun)

Anyway I've read a few pages of this which I'm not going to respond to specifics of (like, calling for Duck Hunt to be banned, wtf) but here's my proposed stagelist (I'd be equally happy with 5 starters or FLSS from my list, anything but Apex's stage list) + some misc rules.

Spoiler

Starter (7):

Battlefield
Smashville
Final Destination/Omega Palutena's
Town and City
Lylat
Duck Hunt
Kongo Jungle 64

Counterpick (6):

Delfino
Halberd
Castle Siege
Skyloft
Wuhu
Pokemon Stadium 2
Omega Stages*

Misc. Rules

2. The Colourblind Rule: During doubles matches, a player on either team can elect to have all players change either their team colour or their characters's palette swap so that they match (eg. players on Blue Team must use Blue colours for their character)
3. The Omega Stage Rule: When Final Destination/Omega Palutena's is banned all Omega stages are banned. If the stage selected is Final Destination, either player may elect to have the match played on Omega Palutena's Temple instead.

edit: it's like 4am go to bed jamwa

 

[ParanoidDrone]

@ Jamwa @ Pazx and whoever else, I believe the following order is best for custom moveset selection:

1. Winner bans stage(s)
2. Loser picks stage
3. Winner picks character
4. Loser picks character
5. Winner picks customs
6. Loser picks customs

Also it was really weird seeing me quoted here since I don't live in Australia.

 

[Gords]

If the Winner picks customs after the Loser has picked their character, this is basically letting the Winner counterpick the loser to some degree. This is what has never been in smash before (thanks for **** taking that out of perspective Gords).

letting the Winner counterpick to some degree already exists. The winner selecting character after the loser has picked a stage is basically the winner counterpicking the loser to some degree, because again MUs can change depending on stages (This is why we give the choice for winners to ban a stage and change their character.). for eg in melee, loser picks DL then winner switches to Peach.

My question regarding blind picks was not in reference to the 1st game, but games afterwards,

Blind Picks implies that your opponent cannot see your selection. Nothing is blind after Game 1. Any counterpicking done, either by the winner or loser, is done with full knowledge of the previous selections, as it has always been.

because being able to counterpick the Loser could be unfair if the Winner's character possesses customs that change MUs enough to make it favourable (regardless of the customs the Loser's counterpicks).

the loser saw which character the winner has selected before they choose their character. If the loser then picks a character that can be out classed regardless of that characters custom set by a particular custom set of the winners chosen character the fault is with the loser for making the unfavourable character choice.

If this actually turns out to be the case when the metagame develops and something broken is discovered, what would be the solution? Winner picks Char + customs and then loser picks Char + customs? That just means the Loser gets to counter the Winner even more, and is potentially just as unfair.

your right, Winner picks Char + customs and then loser picks Char + customs does give a greater advantage to the loser. the solution is separate character and custom selection since now the possiblitly to get ultra hard countered is extremely difficult since characters have specials that are useful or better in certain MUs. for example, lets say in brawl a winner selects Fox then the loser hard counters Pikachu. CGed to 100% then upsmashed, see ya Fox! However, what happens if fox could switch up a move that allows him to break out of the chain grab, but that move is useless in almost all other MUs. Now we have a fair fight! (a hypothetical example obviously but you get the drift)

Blind picks after game 1 are also not a solution because you're basically guessing how to counter your opponent, and anyone could come out on top.

I agree and thats why nothing is blind after game 1. and never has been

Let me express I'm not against or for customs; I don't play the game. I'm simply interested in how customs will balance out and so I'm sharing my concerns because I haven't seen this considered yet.

some of these concerns have been discussed earlier in this thread and all of these concerns have been discussed plentiful in the competitive Smash 4 forums. I am not a high and mighty all knowing smash god and all my decisions have been made after considering a lot of what I have read in those forums and answers to questions i have asked more knowledgeable players than myself.

 

[Jamwa]

I am not a high and mighty all knowing smash god and all my decisions have been made after considering a lot of what I have read in those forums and answers to questions i have asked more knowledgeable players than myself.

perhaps review the wording of your old post then, im not 100% sure but i don't think you were serious about only playing on one stage and excluding all the new characters, so it could've been sarcasm but i'm bad at reading people. you know, after saying i was "posting undeducated statements", i naturally interpreted it as accusatory, but maybe i'm just getting the wrong vibe.

 

[Karnu]

Does anyone else find it odd that Smash players are complaining about having to accommodate for 8 new moves on 51 characters, yet Pokemon players don't complain about having to accommodate for dozens of moves on hundreds of characters.

But Pokemon is a different game and a different meta all together. Custom moves has never been a thing till now.

 

[luke_atyeo]

technically Pokemon has nothing BUT custom moves

 

[Attila_]

And pokemon is a TERRIBLE competitive game.