Meta Australian Smash 4 General Ruleset Discussion

[Splice]

You can fall through duck hunt, halberd, delfino, and skyloft, out of the currently legal stages.
In my experience, Skyloft is where it happens most frequently, it should almost be expected if you ever go for anything tricky during a transformation.

T&C platforms can also kill you but in a different and less glitchy way; some characters have large end lag on their UpB. You can land on a T&C platform with Lucario and it can begin to move off screen AFTER you have landed, and you can die before you recover from the end lag.

There's just a lot of stuff that moves really fast now, plats and transforms are crazy.
But the Duck Hunt fall through basically has to be done on purpose and is the least detrimental of those stages

btw for anyone that didn't realise, the dog will always come up at a spot where one of the two birds landed, or in the middle if you killed nothing. It's totally manipulatable and you can do things like kill a bird next to the edge in between edgeguarding hoping the dog near the edge can set something up for you. It is not random, for the most part; admittedly idk how it is decided when you kill two birds far away from each other.

 

[Gords]

@ Splice , yeah splice i briefly mentioned the dog thing earlier. in my experience the dog always comes up at the location of the latest fallen bird if both birds are shot down

 

[S.D]

I literally only unlocked duck hunt yesterday.

 

[Luco]

The events will help you unlock most of the stages super easy.

On the other hand, the reward conditions for the events (and some of the events themselves) are terrifyingly difficult. Intensive sparring anyone?

I agree that the position of the dog is telegraphed but both players may not be noticing that enough before it screws up someone's approach or whatever. I love the stage personally but it's probably better as a CP even if the glitch is hard to pull off; just because lots of platforms and hidden areas would probably be to some characters' benefit more than others. =P

 

[Dre89]

How many stocks are people playing at tournies now? Personally I like 2 stocks more than 3. Also is the timer stoll 8 minutes for 2 stocks?

 

[Luco]

Hmm, the current format tends to be Bo3, 2 stocks 6 minutes. Which I quite like. Though 3 stocks 8 min can be good too.

 

[Gords]

i really dont like 2 stock, mainly due to the rage mechanic.

 

[Luco]

Ahhh sorry that's right, we do 2 stock 6 min for Swiss and 3 stock 8 min for bracket. Which, again, is fine.

Aside from certain characters, I kinda like the idea of rage as a mechanic that makes heavyweights generally more viable (let's face it... they usually aren't)... everyone seems to hate it though

 

[Dre89]

Ahhh sorry that's right, we do 2 stock 6 min for Swiss and 3 stock 8 min for bracket. Which, again, is fine.

Aside from certain characters, I kinda like the idea of rage as a mechanic that makes heavyweights generally more viable (let's face it... they usually aren't)... everyone seems to hate it though

Everyone hates it because you get can get KO'd at 100% by a frame 10 aerial all because you outplayed your opponent and got them to 150%. It's not a competitive mechanic, it rewards people for getting outplayed and thus provides disproportionate rewards for small feats of skill. It just has a hype factor because it makes comebacks more likely.

Also it doesn't really favour heavies more than other weight classes anyway. Heavies could always KO early, the problem has always just been landing the move, which rage doesn't help. In reality what rage mostly does is make faster moves which weren't really designed as KO moves become legit KO threats (eg. mostly bread and butter aerials). This helps heavies as they don't have to rely on laggy moves to KO, but it helps other weight classes just as much, if not more because they generally have more of these moves.

 

[Luco]

Everyone hates it because you get can get KO'd at 100% by a frame 10 aerial all because you outplayed your opponent and got them to 150%. It's not a competitive mechanic, it rewards people for getting outplayed and thus provides disproportionate rewards for small feats of skill. It just has a hype factor because it makes comebacks more likely.

Also it doesn't really favour heavies more than other weight classes anyway. Heavies could always KO early, the problem has always just been landing the move, which rage doesn't help. In reality what rage mostly does is make faster moves which weren't really designed as KO moves become legit KO threats (eg. mostly bread and butter aerials). This helps heavies as they don't have to rely on laggy moves to KO, but it helps other weight classes just as much, if not more because they generally have more of these moves.

Well think about it in even more depth. We can say that rage rewards getting a read early just as much as it rewards bread and butter aerials. Of course, going for Fsmash reads to punish landings is considerably more risky than going for normal stuff - but playing safe until you get that KO, whilst likely preventing your KO, will also leave you with a much higher percent. If you can get the read; then suddenly you're up by a massive amount - it's just our competitive meta of trying to be safe means we're not really going to see people going for out-of-the-norm reads rather than their normal moves. But let's say that heavies are able to get a higher risk off their reads because their kill moves kill much earlier than most peeps; and also the likelihood that heavies will live to that percent being likely and I think it's a safe statement to say heavies benefit from rage more than other people.

Like, getting to rage in itself is something you have to consider. For most lighter characters, they'll get to 130% and die anyway because they're so light. Heavies will obviously get to enjoy this status for longer. Also there's the issue of whether we can consider you getting your opponent to 170% an 'achievement'. Giving percent to your opponent is certainly something that's good; but as soon as you change your priorities to trying to get the kill, suddenly percent no longer becomes that important, and I'm legitimately considering that perhaps it's the opponent playing well enough to utilise their rage (they have to both survive and hit you) that counts for something. And what are the implications of this? Does this, in conjunction with the changes to shield mean we'll be looking for a slightly more aggressive meta than normal?

I'm not even sure if i'm thinking coherently; this feels a tad muddled to me, but I have to wonder whether there's more to rage than we're giving it credit for...?

(Plz no discrimination on me because i'm a Ness main ;_; )

 

[Venks]

The events will help you unlock most of the stages super easy.

On the other hand, the reward conditions for the events (and some of the events themselves) are terrifyingly difficult. Intensive sparring anyone?

I agree that the position of the dog is telegraphed but both players may not be noticing that enough before it screws up someone's approach or whatever. I love the stage personally but it's probably better as a CP even if the glitch is hard to pull off; just because lots of platforms and hidden areas would probably be to some characters' benefit more than others. =P

You don't make something a counter-pick, because it might be beneficial to other characters. It's a counter-pick when it is truly beneficial to certain characters. So much in fact that you can not call the match up there close to neutral.

I played the stage a bit at my first tournament here back in the US. It's odd, definitely odd. Feels a lot like Final Destination to me as I rarely find myself or my opponent using the awkwardly positioned platforms. Seems neutral.

 

[EverAlert]

On the other hand, the reward conditions for the events (and some of the events themselves) are terrifyingly difficult. Intensive sparring anyone?

eh they're all pretty easy imo, I knocked out the whole board (hard+rewards) in a few hours lol. http://i.imgur.com/SJCsEbI.jpg

btw you only get 3 stages from events, but fortunately they are all pretty early on in the board (you only have to do like 6 events or something).

I agree that the position of the dog is telegraphed but both players may not be noticing that enough before it screws up someone's approach or whatever.

it's literally telegraphed like 10+ seconds ahead of time in several different ways, i don't think we need to worry about that, it's your own fault if you're tunnel-visioning so hard you don't notice something like that tbh lol.

 

[Luco]

I get where you're coming from Venks, but you have to realise even FD and BF benefit certain characters more than others. There's no way to get around it and have an entirely neutral stage. ICs versus anyone in Brawl on FD was nowhere close to neutral, but FD was considered a neutral stage anyway. I would hate to verse Ganon on Battlefield because of his platform shenanigans and I would similarly dislike going against Villager (granted with customs on) on Smashville because stage control + platforms not making my life any easier = arghhhhh

In the end, no stage can truly be neutral. It's just Duck Hunt presents itself to me as a stage which under most conditions will seem like a variant of FD and thus be neutral but in some Mus with some characters will heavily promote camping or perhaps even hiding of stuff like Timber counter, wild gunmen/can, etc. If Duck Hunt ended up being considered a neutral I wouldn't be angry or even annoyed, I just have a sneaking suspicion that some chars would benefit from it quite a lot more than others. But.... maybe i'm being too conservative with my stage-list and need to be willing to try more hahaha.

@ EverAlert - well true; but conversely I could argue that it's your fault for tunnel visioning if you get hit by 5-volt on gamer. A similar example is getting hit by Garden of Hope's crab which is something really easily telegraphed and we still don't consider it legal. Granted these are perhaps extreme examples but I think the point should stand that it's not whether the stage obstacle is easily avoidable, more whether on a fundamental note it disrupts gameplay. It's the reason why i've never considered Halberd a viable competitive stage. Its hazards are easily telegraphed (ish) but you need to be focusing on them somewhat (mostly the extendable grappler) to not get hit on them - that means you can't be focusing on the match and the other character. That's not conducive to pure competitive gameplay - but, like I always say, it doesn't really bother me that much lol. :D

Events on hard + rewards took me a day and a half probably, though it would've taken me less than a day probably had I not lost 3-4 hours of my life on intensive sparring. Ughhhhhhh D:

 

[EverAlert]

I agree that it should be measured by how disruptive it is.

5-volt and the crab have large active hitboxes that can kill you and you may need to compromise your position to avoid or may be forced into; this is obviously disruptive. For the dog to do literally anything beyond slightly moving you, you have to put yourself into a particular spot and do one of your own actions in a specific way to trigger a glitch; happening to not only not notice multiple long-lasting visual cues, but accidentally be in the wrong position and do the wrong action at the wrong time and also trigger the glitch seems... unlikely to say the least.

I don't see how they're comparable, or how the latter is disruptive. It doesn't control space or pose any real threat at all.

 

[Luco]

It's not so much that it's the glitch messing things up; more just that the abundance of platforms combined with the grass makes me think of battlefield on steroids but in weird places that I suspect may or may not promote camping. The thing about the dog is just that it could stuff aerial approaches rarely. Come to think of it; I think it's probably such a rare circumstance that the dog in itself is more or less a non-issue - it's more stuff like... imagine Ness vs. Ganondorf on that stage, and Ness just retreats to the top branch of the tree and start spamming PKT on a gandondorf who's gonna take 2 jumps and a recovery to reach him. It feels... weird. I've played on it and the top branch isn't as high as I assumed but it still takes Ganny his recovery to make it to us. Ionno, it's all probably unwarranted but I just feel like.... bleuuu....

 

[EverAlert]

Ganon can get onto the branches without up b by ledge jumping, or jumping off the dog. Also, he and Mac are the only characters that can't get up there with regular jumps alone. Above isn't exactly a great position to be in smash, so I don't see people camping the top branch being a huge problem in general. The grass is a non-issue as far as I'm concerned, if I put up with Lylat visibility bull**** for 7 years then this is no problem.

Do I see myself banning Duck Hunt standard as Mac in certain matchups? Absolutely. Skewing matchups may be seen as a sign that it could be a counterpick, but from the rest of the core group of stages we're looking at now, none of them I consider really terrible for Mac, so this wouldn't impact my banning in general. And for what it's worth, I think Ness could zone out Ganon completely regardless of stage.

btw, while screwing around tonight i picked ganon and the computer randomed ness, then i picked ness and the computer randomed ganon lol. the game knows.

 

[luke_atyeo]

Halberd is fine if you measure it by your measurement (that is, how disruptive a hazard is) you have to be some next level bad to get hit by any of the hazards there. Even if in theory it could be a problem, I've played probably somewhere around 100 tournament matches on halberd and those hazards have never affected the outcome, nor have I seen it be a problem in any of the other countless matches I've observed. Empirical evidence 2 stronk.


Also, if your ness camping strategy makes you unreachable without burning a recovery for only 2 members of the cast, that doesn't make a stage bannable it makes it counterpickable and those 2 characters just have to ban it, thats how counter picks work as has already been said multiple times above. Furthermore, every strategy has its risks, sure you can camp with ness on the top platform, but that puts you very high up and all it takes is for you to miss one pkt and get hit by an uair or whatever and now you are in real risk of dying early out the top of the screen.

 

[Luco]

Halberd is fine if you measure it by your measurement (that is, how disruptive a hazard is) you have to be some next level bad to get hit by any of the hazards there. Even if in theory it could be a problem, I've played probably somewhere around 100 tournament matches on halberd and those hazards have never affected the outcome, nor have I seen it be a problem in any of the other countless matches I've observed. Empirical evidence 2 stronk.


Also, if your ness camping strategy makes you unreachable without burning a recovery for only 2 members of the cast, that doesn't make a stage bannable it makes it counterpickable and those 2 characters just have to ban it, thats how counter picks work as has already been said multiple times above. Furthermore, every strategy has its risks, sure you can camp with ness on the top platform, but that puts you very high up and all it takes is for you to miss one pkt and get hit by an uair or whatever and now you are in real risk of dying early out the top of the screen.

Hahaha, but I never said the stage should be banned, my original argument was that it was probably better as a CP anyway!

And my argument against Halberd (in theory) still stands because my very point was that even whilst not being next level bad i'm always keeping an eye on the hazards there which, again, in theory detracts from the element of competitive gameplay we should be striving for. Yes, it just so happens that in practice Halberd isn't terrible to play on; but in theory you shouldn't even ask people to multi-task in that way (multi-tasking in other ways is fine thooooo). I don't agree with it as a stage; but yeah plenty of other people have played on it and seem to like it so i'm over here just like "wellllllll okay, it's not like I mind anyway " (because I don't mind )

 

[EverAlert]

Extra thought: SV has very similar camping, insta-strike/ban qualities in certain matchups in Brawl, yet is still neutral. You better know I'm playing game 1 vs Pit on BF because screw SV in that matchup and everyone still thinks FD is ICs best stage for some reason.

 

[Invisi]

Can confirm that SV, while neutral in most MUs, is most definitely not neutral in that one.

 

[Venks]

Hahaha, but I never said the stage should be banned, my original argument was that it was probably better as a CP anyway!

And my argument against Halberd (in theory) still stands because my very point was that even whilst not being next level bad i'm always keeping an eye on the hazards there which, again, in theory detracts from the element of competitive gameplay we should be striving for. Yes, it just so happens that in practice Halberd isn't terrible to play on; but in theory you shouldn't even ask people to multi-task in that way (multi-tasking in other ways is fine thooooo). I don't agree with it as a stage; but yeah plenty of other people have played on it and seem to like it so i'm over here just like "wellllllll okay, it's not like I mind anyway " (because I don't mind )

Two things you need to realize. One being that this Smash game has more characters than any other. Two being that some characters, like Little Mac, are more extreme than others. There is literally no stage that is true neutral for every match up.

 

[Luco]

Two things you need to realize. One being that this Smash game has more characters than any other. Two being that some characters, like Little Mac, are more extreme than others. There is literally no stage that is true neutral for every match up.

In the end, no stage can truly be neutral.

I even mentioned it myself

The difference (I feel) between Duck Hunt and FD/BF/SV is that... well actually i'd rather ask you guys. On those 3 stages, do we actually, legitimately feel like there's any character who won't be able to function at an optimal level there? And can that be applied to Duck Hunt?

Also is 4 starters legit? Does it have to be 5 or 3?

 

[EverAlert]

Needs to be an odd number for even striking.

 

[luke_atyeo]

Hahaha, but I never said the stage should be banned, my original argument was that it was probably better as a CP anyway!

And my argument against Halberd (in theory) still stands because my very point was that even whilst not being next level bad i'm always keeping an eye on the hazards there which, again, in theory detracts from the element of competitive gameplay we should be striving for. Yes, it just so happens that in practice Halberd isn't terrible to play on; but in theory you shouldn't even ask people to multi-task in that way (multi-tasking in other ways is fine thooooo). I don't agree with it as a stage; but yeah plenty of other people have played on it and seem to like it so i'm over here just like "wellllllll okay, it's not like I mind anyway " (because I don't mind )

Any theory that is disproven in practice does not 'stand'

Theorycrafting has its place, but that place is much smaller then most people think.
In theory, if you dont mind anyway, then you dont mind and thus dont need to complain about it, in theory.

 

[Tomo009]

I fell straight through the ground on Kongo Jungle 64, it wasn't fun. I don't know if it had something to do with the section where the stage bends, but I jumped over the stage from off stage, did back slash and went clean right through the floor around that section.

I'm kicking myself for not having an SD card to record it to, but DD can back me up on this one. (How do you tag someone on this forum?)

 

[EverAlert]

You don't need an SD card to save replays on WiiU.

Anyway, I believe it.

 

[Venks]

The tournaments I've been playing back in the States have been doing this:

Starters
Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Town and City
Lylat Cruise

Counter-picks
Delfino Plaza
Skyloft
Halberd

Town and City is easily the best addition to the Starters list in my opinion. It feels a lot like Final Destination, because the starting platforms are a bit high, but at mid-percents they tend to see a lot more play. Especially when the stage switches to the 2-platform formation as those platforms are more akin to Smashville's height. Probably not Little Mac's best stage as he can't reach any of the platforms with his up smash and lacks a good way to approach, but I'd still consider it neutral.

Lylat Cruise is far from my favorite stage. Recovering on this stage isn't as easy because it lacks a slanted edge like every other Starter stage so you have to be more precise or you'll fail to recover with what normally works. The fact that the stage itself leans up and down also makes recovering a bit more difficult and thus characters with limited recovery routes are a lot easier to gimp. The stage leaning factor also makes a lot of usual combos no longer work. We're currently proposing to switch this stage to counter-pick for our next tournament. It'll probably be replaced by the Duck Hunt stage.

I don't really have anything to say about Skyloft as a counter-pick. I've never played the stage in tournament as pretty much everyone seems averse to it. It looks like a terrible stage for Little Mac so I'm not really interested in checking it out myself.

I fell straight through the ground on Kongo Jungle 64, it wasn't fun. I don't know if it had something to do with the section where the stage bends, but I jumped over the stage from off stage, did back slash and went clean right through the floor around that section.

I'm kicking myself for not having an SD card to record it to, but DD can back me up on this one. (How do you tag someone on this forum?)

Sounds like you weren't actually fully above the stage when you used back slash. I've seen many a Shulk SD on Battlefield and FD in the exact same manor. It's just more deceiving on Kongo Jungle because you think you might of survived on another stage. But instead of going through the stage you would of just rid across the underside of the stage as you SD'd.

Oh and yea you only need a SD card for screenshots, not replays.

 

[Luco]

Any theory that is disproven in practice does not 'stand'

Theorycrafting has its place, but that place is much smaller then most people think.
In theory, if you dont mind anyway, then you dont mind and thus dont need to complain about it, in theory.

Ionno. Can it really be said that at the most 'pure' level of competitive gameplay that Halberd adds to that? I have my doubts; sure we play on it and don't really seem to get that affected by stage hazards, but think what games would be like with one tiny difference of play in a particular area. A single spotdodge here or a punish there will change a game from that point onwards. Without the claw, laser and bomb who knows where the games would go and whether that would have been better than without those hazards that you have to play around - and you do have to play around them, even if it's to a minor extent.

But you're right. In theory, theory theorytheorytheorytheory is theory and theory theory of thoery is othery ythoer. I talk theory; and it's probably not enough to ban Halberd at this point. And hey, I don't really care if it's in there but not everything in life is about necessity.

 

[Hameed Ziabari]

Ahhh sorry that's right, we do 2 stock 6 min for Swiss and 3 stock 8 min for bracket. Which, again, is fine.

Aside from certain characters, I kinda like the idea of rage as a mechanic that makes heavyweights generally more viable (let's face it... they usually aren't)... everyone seems to hate it though

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EF_jmI2Yqw&list=UUj1J3QuIftjOq9iv_rr7Egw

this is what makes rage an interesting mechanic, it makes the game constantly exciting. It adds a comeback factor that past games lacked.

 

[Dre89]

I thought a neutral stage was about neutral player matchups ie. where two players can display fundamental smash skills without having to deal with stage gimmicks, rather than having neutral character match ups.

 

[Gords]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EF_jmI2Yqw&list=UUj1J3QuIftjOq9iv_rr7Egw

this is what makes rage an interesting mechanic, it makes the game constantly exciting. It adds a comeback factor that past games lacked.

um could you tell me where rage played a part in this set at all, let alone for comebacks. Because as far as i can see the only reason why Pink Fresh came back was from smart edgeguards all of which were done when he was at low percents.

 

[Leisha]

Hey guys, Im not sure if anyone has seen this happen before on Lylat. I was playing with my friend Ryan the other day, and it seems like the stage sometimes glitches out and puts you into the laying down animation. It happens to me near the edge and I get punished for it which is rather silly :s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shGJSuOWDco

Let me know if anyone has seen this before, just could be a dumb stage to have especially if its considered neutral at the moment. If anyone knows what this is, let me know

 

[Dre89]

Hey guys, Im not sure if anyone has seen this happen before on Lylat. I was playing with my friend Ryan the other day, and it seems like the stage sometimes glitches out and puts you into the laying down animation. It happens to me near the edge and I get punished for it which is rather silly :s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shGJSuOWDco

Let me know if anyone has seen this before, just could be a dumb stage to have especially if its considered neutral at the moment. If anyone knows what this is, let me know

Crooked stages in general this game are janky. The other day I was playing Diddy on a crooked stage (think it may have been Wuhu Island, can't remember).I tried to sideb onto a crooked ledge and instead of ledge snapping I clipped through the stage and landed ontop of the stage with no lag.

 

[Splice]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EF_jmI2Yqw&list=UUj1J3QuIftjOq9iv_rr7Egw

this is what makes rage an interesting mechanic, it makes the game constantly exciting. It adds a comeback factor that past games lacked.

Melee's comeback factor is far superior and more potent to Smash 4's. This is just the "hype" of the rage factor. In fact, you are misinformed, and there is nothing exciting about rage mechanic in a competitive scenario.

RE: crooked ledges
The way the terrain is programmed in this game appears more complicated than previous games and this leads to more jank interactions, I'd say it's worse overall and a bit of a detractor from the game. You can make characters freeze completely (inputs do nothing) by making them walk over two intersecting platforms, this has happened to me on stage builder. You'd assume the actual stages to be better designed than me scribbling on the Wii-U pad but while I haven't frozen a character yet I've glitched through the stage when I'm clearly above it quite a few times. Hopefully the stages we end up using are not intensely prone to this behaviour. And this would mean that Lylat would be removed. Lylat is quite dysfunctional in this game!

 

[Jamwa]

the god squad told me that lylat was created by satan

 

[Lex__]

Lylat has the most disruptive stage design with the moving stage and the moving background + the terrible stage layout. I cant believe people want it in.

 

[Hameed Ziabari]

Melee's comeback factor is far superior and more potent to Smash 4's. This is just the "hype" of the rage factor. In fact, you are misinformed, and there is nothing exciting about rage mechanic in a competitive scenario.

RE: crooked ledges
The way the terrain is programmed in this game appears more complicated than previous games and this leads to more jank interactions, I'd say it's worse overall and a bit of a detractor from the game. You can make characters freeze completely (inputs do nothing) by making them walk over two intersecting platforms, this has happened to me on stage builder. You'd assume the actual stages to be better designed than me scribbling on the Wii-U pad but while I haven't frozen a character yet I've glitched through the stage when I'm clearly above it quite a few times. Hopefully the stages we end up using are not intensely prone to this behaviour. And this would mean that Lylat would be removed. Lylat is quite dysfunctional in this game!

Why is melee relevant to the discussion? No one was talking about melee. Someone talked about the rage mechanic, and I provided an example of it. Melee wasnt brought up at all, theres no reason to compare it.

 

[luke_atyeo]

Why is melee relevant to the discussion? No one was talking about melee.

uhh actually you were

...It adds a comeback factor that past games lacked.

 

[Gords]

Someone talked about the rage mechanic, and I provided an example of it.

your example isnt relevant, rage doesnt even play a part in that set.

 

[Attila_]

The more I play on duck hunt, the more I feel it should be banned. It's so bloody large and impossible to edge guard on, and the tree platform is way too high.

Probably the most silly stage after CS and KJ64 imo.