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Meta Australian Smash 4 General Ruleset Discussion

Tomo009

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Hmm I'd like to see it, I didn't even think the hazard lasted that long. Visually it looks very short, it always happens at the same time, but covering a blast zone is something notable.

I really prefer it to Delphino, as a scrolling stage though, even if the hazard is worse than we thought.
 

Luco

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Well if I recall, as the stage moves below skyloft itself, the floating island protrudes 3 or 4 times into the stage very rapidly, so like, at the top right corner, you'll go past a bit of rock, then immediately after that another bit of rock juts down, etc. And it does this 3 or 4 times all with decent knockback.

I could be wrong, i'd have to check it; but frankly put I wasn't expecting to win the game off that grab. :p
 

Gords

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1v1 and 2v2

Starters
battle field
Smashville
Omega Palutena temple
- the most visually pleasing FD type Omega
(argument could be made to have Omega BF but even this has some colour problems at night when Blue/dark textures characters are being used)
Possible Starters
Town and City
- the centre platform of town rises higher than some characters can make with their double jump (eg Ganondorf). Also the platforms leave quickly and can take you out the blast zones when they do (like frigate platforms). Apart from these issues its a neutral and next in line for starter.
Duck Hunt - single platform on the right and a tree with several higher irregularly placed platforms on the left that remain constant, the dog rises in the centre of the stage every now and then creating another platform. The birds stop projectiles and can get hit (basically yoshi island Shy Guys). Stage is more neutral than lylat imo with a static main platform that is slightly larger than FD but with a lower ceiling. Due to the aesthetic and graphic design being a bit off putting and the grass that pops up I feel this should be counterpick but it could replace lylat as the 5th starter which would also add a walled platform to the starter list (similar to yoshi island in the 3ds starter list)
lylat - rocking stage can interfere with projectiles/approaches as well as making recovery for some characters difficult. definitely more swaying to match ups than the above stages which is why I believe it is not neutral and should be counter pick but if we are going 5 starters this would be a decent 5th

Counterpicks
Omegas
- Again I would run it with Final Destination includes all Omega stages, So Banning FD includes a ban for all Omega stages and picking FD can be any Omega. so far I have not seen any ban worthy Omega
Delphino - all but the shine sprite transformation has either water or walk off or both (and this transformation randomly killed both me and shaya at the same time upon it leaving). with sharking/planking and no metaknight problem to deal with this stage is definitely worthy of being a counterpick.
Skyloft - I feel this is better than delphino. More transformations with no water but some walkoffs. Less time spent at each one means any area with walk offs or camping layouts are actually less intrusive to gameplay than the fire/rock tranformations of PS1. the only problem I have experienced here is that rarely the rock enters the playable area of the stage and deals damage when travelling under certain parts of the island. definitely worthy of a coounterpick though.
Halberd - again with no metaknight or planking to worry about and the hazards being pretty easily avoided this is another stage that should make a comeback. although riding the wall doesnt seem as forgiving as it was in brawl.
Kongo jungle 64 - unique platform layout and the moving platforms in the centre make circle camping a bit difficult.
castle siege - 1st form is awesome, 2nd form is trashtacular with destructibles that interfere with projectiles as well as walk off, 3rd form is a pseudo FD. 3nd form is the only issue i have with this satge but nothing really here that screams banned. if we want to cut the list down a bit this would be the first to go though imo. stage is decent enough though for 3v3

3v3
Starter
omega Palutena temple
Big battlefield
- too big for doubles
Possible Starters
Battlefield - too small for 4v4, arguably small for 3v3 so could be counterpick
duck hunt
kongo jungle 64
- possibly too small for 4v4
Counterpicks
windy hill zone - too big for doubles
castle siege
Omegas
- should be noted that with 5+ players the omega stages get bigger

4v4
Starter - Omega Palutena temple or Big battlefield
Windy Hill Zone
duck hunt
Omegas


And sky loft is worse than then all.
did you want to elaborate on this?
 
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Attila_

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Lylat > Duck Hunt imo.

Duck hunt is incredibly large, asymmetrical, has seemingly random and unpredictable platform setups, and the lack of offstage vision makes edgeguarding a real choir.

Lylat just has some really sign posted slanting, but otherwise is another version of battlefield.
 

Luco

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It's a good argument for DH being CP, but tbh I think if one of them is, both of them should be.

Slanting is a massive ordeal. It not only affects the game of more or less any projectile user, it also affects recovery and even some of the mid-range footsies play and combos. Some characters really benefit from it well, others hate it. It feels like a CP to me. :)
 

luke_atyeo

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you might aswell just make the only starter smashville, I mean whens the last time you ended up not on smashville? never? yeah I know hey.
 

Gords

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Lylat > Duck Hunt imo.

Duck hunt is incredibly large, asymmetrical, has seemingly random and unpredictable platform setups, and the lack of offstage vision makes edgeguarding a real choir.

Lylat just has some really sign posted slanting, but otherwise is another version of battlefield.
duck hunt is less than half a mario back roll bigger than FD, not incredibly large at all. edgeguarding is practically the same as any walled FD, dont know how the visuals would effect this, platforms are not random other than when the dog comes up. All of which dont skew matchups nowhere near as much as lylat does. Also having a starter with a different off stage game than the other starter with its walled main platform is better imo than having just "another version of battlefield"

saying this though I do agree with
It's a good argument for DH being CP, but tbh I think if one of them is, both of them should be.
and its for this reason i think we should have 3 starters only
Omega palutena temple
Battlefield
Smashville
 

Dre89

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Note for Kongo Jungle 64, barrel stalling is mitigated by the fact that if the second player jumps in the barrel too, they'll both be immediately sent flying out. I reckon it's a CP due to the barrel and high ceiling.
 

Attila_

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Visuals effect edgeguarding because you can't even see where the opponent is. The zoom out on that stage is atrocious.
 

Gords

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that still doesnt make it worse than lylats stupid ledges or slants. the smaller zoom out doesnt really effect matchups nowhere as much as these issues with lylat. hence why i feel DH is a better starter. the different zoom in this regard creates a different off stage game again compared to just "another version of battlefield" where edgeguards are easier and recoveries harder.

if we are actually set on 5 starters maybe we should go
Omega palutena
battlefield
smashville
duck hunt
lylat

since i dont really think any lylat and duck hunt should be in different categories. both seem more counterpicks to me than neutrals anyway which is why i suggested 3 starters. Town and city is more neutral than both of them but still not completely neutral such as FDs, so maybe swaping out FD/omega palutena for Town & City in this 5 starter list wont be that bad either.
 
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Shaya

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duck hunt as a starter gords? gaaaaaaaaaaaah.
I know Lylat gets in the way, but in our recent games Duck Hunt seems to have gotten in the way a lot more in completely random ways; maybe not in a way that takes stocks but rather robs opportunities?

The visual issues of the stage is personally one of the bigger sways against it.
 
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Jamwa

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Except that why are we even considering Lylat it's the worst stage to ever exist
would rather hanenbow 100%
 

Gords

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@ Shaya Shaya
my preferred suggestion is 3 starters since i dont believe DH should be starter, but i also dont think lylat should be starter as well. both i do not consider neutral.
And in our recent games DH didnt get in my way at all really, but lylat stopped approaches, gimped both of us and interfered with my sapling watering (like most angles platforms do).
 

Splice

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I'm just curious as to why you feel Sky loft is worse than Delphino. As far as I'm aware Sky loft has no water and less walk offs but for the tradeoff of one questionable transformation (which can always be camped anyway a la PK stadium transforms) and one stage hazard that is very negligible. Not arguing for or against skyloft here would just like some insight
After playing on Skyloft more it has several questionable transformations and more than once have I seen someone fall through the stage, particularly on that cave-like transformation. The only Delphino's jank transformations (the shine shrine and the rooftop) are far less disruptive to common play than some of skylofts stupidly bumpy transformations. The Delphino transformation that consists of a couple of small pillars is the only transformation it has that it is worse than the majority of Skylofts.
With further play, at this point, Walk-offs nor water are something I consider an issue since it's so easy to avoid them and/or someone camping them. It may make for bad situations if the clock is being run in the first place, but I can't say how I feel about that. Going purely off which stage has more moments where it's transformed and I've felt very awkward or had to camp a transformation, Skyloft loses, by far. Several transformations that aren't too bad otherwise can be circle camped if one player chooses to, other transformations can't be camped effectively and just have odd platform setups and odd ground.

I honestly don't understand at all how the toss-up is between stages like Skyloft and Delphino at all when we have Halberd and Kongo64. The latter two stages are way more elaborate for counterpicking than Skyloft and Delphino. Do you realise that any stages that transform so frequently and has blast zone changes can easily be a shaky counterpick since different transformations affect MU's differently? Second of all there are several jank transformations on both stages, the lists people come up with Skyloft and Delphino but missing Halberd or Kongo are just Insane.

@ Gords Gords
I think 5 starters is better, playing that variability and versatility card, and you don't need to have Duckhunt to have 5 starters...
What's wrong with Kongo I don't get it
 

luke_atyeo

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stage transformations get in the way more in this game then brawl since combos actually exist, any other game with a stage could instantly end your combo would surely ban that stage
 

Gords

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@ Splice Splice
I also think 5 starters is better i just didnt like lylat or DH being starters, I kinda forgot about Kongo so never considered it starter but yeah i think this would be better than both lylat and DH for the 5th starter.
regarding delphino and skyloft, i think both are reasonably similar to both be included in the stage list at least for now. After a couple of months of tourneys we can see how the differences in transformations effects the outcomes of games and match ups to see if we still keep both, one or none of them in the CP list. similarly with Castle Siege
Halberd, DH, lylat and Omegas should definitely be CP imo

starters
Omega Palutena's Temple
Battlefield
Smashville
Town & City
Kongo jungle 64

Counterpicks
Omega Stages
Lylat Cruise
Duck Hunt
Halberd
Skyloft
Delphino Plaza
Castle Siege

11 stages

Cut Castle Siege maybe to have 10 stages with 2 bans which would make it a similar number to PM v3.5 lists
 
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Splice

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I'm fine with those starters (I really think playing on an Omega should be gentlemans agreement and it should stay FD for simplicity's sake but that's fine)
I really think that is the best setup of starters

Importance of a good platform game and aerial movement is more important for a character on K64 and BF, than on T&C and FD, and Smashville is in the middle.
In order:
K64 - Battlefield - Smashville - T&C - FD

I agree with your counterpicks
But I think that eventually Castle Siege, Skyloft, and maybe Delphino and maybe maybe Lylat will all eventually be removed.
Transformations on these stages are hugely disruptive and hard to manipulate. At least Halberds transformation, if you know what you're doing, can be used to help continue or setup combos and whatnot.

Lylat's just painful to play on because of how much it tilts (interrupts combos, projectile trajectory and recovery)
It benefits my Greninja in some MU's but it's just a pain for others, there's a lot of people who'd be happy to see it go so I won't be surprised or mad if that day comes.

I pretty much 100% agree with your post though, the other stages should definitely be CP, and these 4 stages are just ones I think might go in time, but personally I'm not fussed with the exception of Castle Siege.
It's bull****
 
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S.D

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Instead of trying to justify a 5th starter when there isn't a clear candidate whats the problem with going to 3 starters?
SV, BF, FD
 

Attila_

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Kj64 as starter? Looooool

Run away all day attack from under the stage, use barrels to recover, utilize slants against projectiles... How is this better than lylat?
 

Shaya

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How about we just make a yoshi's island Brawl rip off and standardise it within Australia.
Let's rock.

:wifi:

Or with a bit more class and logic, PS2.

Why isn't there a Yoshi's Island Brawl stage picture what the ****.
 
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Gords

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Instead of trying to justify a 5th starter when there isn't a clear candidate whats the problem with going to 3 starters?
SV, BF, FD
I already suggested this for exactly this reason, and I would still prefer to see it over 5 starters for Smash WiiU, but hey most active members in this thread seem hellbent on 5 starters.
 
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S.D

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There's no point forcing a five starter stage list if it doesn't exist.
Go with three, have a generous CP list and cull from that.
It's likely we'll only end up with 5-6 legal stages anyway so 5 starters won't hold water for long.
 

Lex__

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Its because you cant create a neutral banning with 3, you really get no choice on what gets banned.
 

S.D

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Its because you cant create a neutral banning with 3, you really get no choice on what gets banned.
Wut? You ban one stage each and end up on the most balanced for the MU.... instead of superfluously banning two stages that will NEVER EVER be used as the starter anyway.
 
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Splice

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Kj64 as starter? Looooool

Run away all day attack from under the stage, use barrels to recover, utilize slants against projectiles... How is this better than lylat?
If you have a projectile and it matters in the matchup... strike it :o
If you play a character that doesn't have a strong aerial game, you'd strike this stage. You can't platform camp most characters here so it shouldn't not be a starter just because some characters can't deal with it. That's their weakness; by having Kongo, you are catering for more aerial characters since the rest of the starters already help characters that stay on the ground enough. With Kongo in a matchup with a super aerial character vs. a character that heavily favours the ground, you would strike to Smashville.

You can play the go under stage game and die for it sure, all it does is add dimension to recovery. Rather than Lylat, which takes away. Also you shot yourself in the foot, Lylat hurts projectiles far more than this stage and it does so randomly, rather than with a static tilt.

The barrel is like randall with the exception of, once you get in, the recovery is free since you become invulnerable when it shoots you. It is the biggest problem of the stage.

@ S.D S.D There is nothing much wrong with only having 3 stages, but Kongo and T&C would get played sometimes I believe. You want to feel like you've catered to all matchups and have something for everyone. Just one example is I think Greninja vs. Jiggs would go to K64 coz Jiggs would probably want space and aerial room and good recovery options and Greninja has lots of setups on the platforms and would rely on being proficient in these scenarios and killing off the top. It doesn't matter much but it's not a big price to pay to have a few more players play on a stage they want more. everyone else can just strike Kongo and T&C, yeah.
To quickly address to T&C, it's literally FD half the time. There are platforms to use but you have to be strong without plats to use this stage.

I believe Kongo exists as a 5th starter because what the stages provide is actually still balanced, and will still strike to Smashville in the case of two characters who function oppositely. It is like FD for characters who like platforms; it is the extreme and polar opposite to FD (whilst still being a stage that doesn't transform). Matchups that would strike to Smashville with (BF, SV, FD) would also to strike to Smashville with (BF, SV, FD, K64, T&C)

Also, a sidenote in favour of the case of having 3 stages, I want to point out that it doesn't even matter who goes first when it comes to strikes.
Unless you don't understand your character at all, the progression of FD to Smashville to Battlefield is pretty obvious and you should know what you want and what they want.

For the record, I'd rather only have 3 stages than have Lylat in the starters. if you put Lylat in instead of Kongo, you have 3 stages that benefit characters who prefer to stay on the ground + Smashville, which depending on your stance also benefits the grounded portion of the cast rather than aerial characters.
That's completely ****ed d00dz
 
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EverAlert

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3 starters seems to me like the most solid choice. No matter what the other two are, I feel 5 stages is going to add more jank than actual legitimate (neutral-feeling) stage variety. Any stage that will only ever be played in a small number of matchups feels very counterpick to me. Starters should be neutral, which to me means they should be able to accommodate a wide variety of character and playstyle combinations. I don't feel any stage beyond BF FD SV provides this (T&C probably being the closest, but since it plays like FD or SV most of the time, I don't feel it adds much either).

If we have to have a 5-stage list, I'd say add on T&C (above reasons) and DH (its "visual problems" are really not that bad and I feel will be just fine with a little experience).

We should really just go with a 3-stage list though. The only real flaw is that it's the same as the 2009 starter list, lol.


@ Splice Splice I agree with everything you say, some irrel thoughts though:

Doesn't change your point at all, but I'm pretty sure Lylat actually is on a set pattern (unless they changed it from Brawl; I haven't put a hell of a lot of time into it on WiiU because Lylat is ****ing stupid, but it seemed pretty much the same albeit sped up a little).

Again not that it changes your point, but the invincibility from Kongo's barrel wears off well before you get control out of the tumble, so I wouldn't really call that "free" recovery unless you're at low percent. It does give you your double jump back though, which is a bit silly, lol.
 

Splice

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Compare standing on randall in melee, a position below the ledge, to getting shot onto the stage and being invulnerable during the travel time. It's a big difference. Once you land on randall you still have to actually recover.

Also the stale argument; even if the tilts on Lylat aren't random, it's a 2 player game and depending on the flow of battle you are forced into a position where they screw you over. It's the same with Randall on Yoshi's in Melee; if you get Shine->Dair by Falco and you land on Randall, you didn't get combo'd on purpose. You happened to be put in a position and called out on it and got hit, and that opportunity occured at that time so the falco took it at that time... and Randall happened to be there. Even if both players understand where Randall is at all times, an opportunity has been taken away due to the timing.

Stages with these features are acceptable, but their influence differs. Lylat affects you while you are onstage; far more persistent than K64 barrel and Randall on Yoshi's (which isn't even in smash 4 but is the classic example). Halberd also has features that can rob opportunities, but they create opportunities too (running into the bomb and shielding to get pushed for a long range shield grab is classy as). Also they are the least persistent of all these things.

We're still in agreement EA, and it would be good to know the pattern if there is one. That said, it is so disruptive to some characters projectiles, recovery and movement that the 4 people at my meet today all took it off the random select at some point hahaha.
________
In other news Skyloft looks less viable by the day. If you are fighting near the edge of the stage as it transforms into a stage with a walkoff you can convert into a Walkoff KO before you can even realise what transformation you're going to. Example: One guy is holding the edge, the opponent runs up and shields expecting getup attack... suddenly you're both on the ground because the stage transformed! the guy who was on the ledge uses grab and bthrow - it's gg. I've also jumped onto the ground that WAS VISIBLE of the oncoming transformation and have it do damage and knockback to me? what? huh?
Not to mention the ground makeup of at least 3 transformations is more unplayable than anything on delphino. Some of the stages are just a jumble of tilts that make all your moves go in jank directions.

I don't care if they're both removed; transformations happen faster than I remember in Brawl and appear far more disruptive than in a Brawl match. Momentum is far more important in this game, similar to melee, than in Brawl (at least until you get a MU where one character can legitimately camp another forever) and transformations are the worst for that. But Delphino > Skyloft by far guys :/
 
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EverAlert

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Yeah absolutely. In case it wasn't clear I wasn't making an argument against you, just adding my 2c on minor details. We're definitely on the same page. :)
 

Splice

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Yeah absolutely. In case it wasn't clear I wasn't making an argument against you, just adding my 2c on minor details. We're definitely on the same page. :)
What's your source for running out of invulnerability before you hit the ground/can act?
It doesn't seem that way to me.
 

luke_atyeo

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I can confirm that you can definitely hit someone in the end lag of a barrel recovery before they get control back
 

Splice

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I can confirm that you can definitely hit someone in the end lag of a barrel recovery before they get control back
Cheers, but is this just if they go straight up?
If they shoot on an angle so they hit the tilts on the ground or if they land tightly on a platform, I'm not sure you can hit them.
It would be much better if you could and I hope you're right in all scenarios
 

EverAlert

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What's your source for running out of invulnerability before you hit the ground/can act?
It doesn't seem that way to me.
a week of playing the game, being hit out of it and hitting people out of it.

not sure what effect angle has on it (if any) since everyone pretty much always goes straight up unless it's an accident.
 
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Luco

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http://smashboards.com/threads/official-standard-custom-moveset-project-initial-release.381395/

There.

The customs project is something that's been going on for a while and I've been involved with it quite heavily since it started and doing quite a bit of work for it, so it's something I care about... a lot.

It's a work around the logistical issues surrounding customs and literally with 1 or 2 dedicated, enthusiastic people it's not hard to set up before a tournament. If you guys want for NSW scene i'll make a concerted effort to get all customs unlocked on my 3DS and we can use it as the basis to transfer to every tournament wii U we need. For more info, click the link above, it explains everything. We've put a lot of work into this, so i'd appreciate if you guys gave it quite a bit of thought; and with any luck it will be integrated into the American and European scenes as it grows (which is FAST, and already has the support of the vast majority of the community - like 88% atm - and now I believe TOs as well)

I won't say too much more about it unless asked; as I said the thread above covers pretty much everything you could possibly worry about, with the exception of changing customs meta which is being discussed (and also something i'm happy to put in the work for here if needed) and worked out currently.

Thanks guys. :)
 
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Gords

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Yeah i spoke to shaya about something like this already, and i beleive the converstion started with me going to tell him about a similar concept i had when he replied with "well thats what already in the works" or something to that effect.

I havent got time to read the thread now, but i want customs labelled a certain way which i believe i have described somewhere in the Aus smash 4 ruleset thread, where numbers are used that show what moves they have. (eg defaults would be 1111, 2nd customs would be 2222, another could be 2213, etc., digits are in order of neutral, side, up down specials).
 

dean.

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Weren't we going to wait for the APEX ruleset before deciding on customs? Or was it just Victoria that was doing that.
I really would like to see Australia united on the customs front. I don't want to live in a customs-banned region then travel to Sydney for a major and lose to Timber Counter or some other jank like that.
 

Shaya

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I believe the people saying that were just louder than anyone else could be bothered.

We may tend towards customs illegal, I think many of us are cosigned to the inevitability of it all; but if independence is possible we'll prob stay split. Victoria was anti-customs before their first tournament, NSW was pro-customs since the game came out.
Two worlds, destined to clash, the oligarchical Spartans Victorians against the democratic, stoic Athenians Welshmen; will fate repeat itself and as a result stall societal enlightenment and spearhead imperial warfare for another 2400 years?
 
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