Meta Australian Smash 4 General Ruleset Discussion

[KuroganeHammer]

so now that v won non-customs are we going to stop discounting everything she did as "villager customs are borken!"?

I'm just curious

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

so now that v won non-customs are we going to stop discounting everything she did as "villager customs are borken!"?

I'm just curious

uhhhh... who exactly?

 

[Luco]

so now that v won non-customs are we going to stop discounting everything she did as "villager customs are borken!"?

I'm just curious

Oh, V won non-customs? That's ultra cool! @ Venks , tell her I said good job! :D

@ CyberHyperPhoenix - V is one of the regular players who's now made a name for herself in smash 4 in the melbourne scene. She's pretty awesome. :D

 

[Shaya]

I never discounted anything she did as villager customs are broken, I flat out believe that villager is all sorts of broken by themselves.

Instead, most people are probably discounting the credibility of Melbourne, or at least the TO who by practically all outsider's perspectives banned customs due to salt rather than logic.

 

[Venks]

so now that v won non-customs are we going to stop discounting everything she did as "villager customs are borken!"?

I'm just curious

I never doubted she'd also win the no-custom tournament. I didn't really see more than a couple people trying to learn the Villager match-up. There was much more complaining than there was people testing things out 1v1. Which should never be the case especially when talking about bans. That's just silly.

But yeah this no-custom and custom tournament experiment turned out really well. I'm glad we took that route over just banning things outright.

Oh, V won non-customs? That's ultra cool! @ Venks , tell her I said good job! :D

Haha no worries. I'll definitely let her know. She's poured a lot of time into this game and you can definitely see the result.

I never discounted anything she did as villager customs are broken, I flat out believe that villager is all sorts of broken by themselves.

Instead, most people are probably discounting the credibility of Melbourne, or at least the TO who by practically all outsider's perspectives banned customs due to salt rather than logic.

Villager is crazy good. Super good gimping potential, the best recovery in the game, and crazy good zoning tools with Lloid Rocket and slingshots. Oh and of course Villager can KO opponents at the ledge 40~60% with side smash.

That said Villager definitely has disadvantageous match ups.

 

[Gords]

so with this no-custom and custom tournament experiment.
what are the results of said experiments.

 

[Shaya]

The best player still won.
Crazy.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

I have a question on Villagers recovery actually..... I haven't faced too many Villagers and I want to know, how easy (or hard) is it to pop his balloons? Cause I've heard that it is easy from some people, but others say its hard to...

 

[PrettyCoolGuy]

I love how bad this thread is at discussing the actual ruleset. You guys da bess.
Imo don't diverge from the rest of the world without good reason. It's just much less complicated

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

I love how bad this thread is at discussing the actual ruleset. You guys da bess.
Imo don't diverge from the rest of the world without good reason. It's just much less complicated

You can blame attila for the thread then

 

[Villyness]

Hi hi! I thought it was about time I went on Smashboards to check things out, but I probably won't be inputting much (I can answer any Villager questions tho!).

@ Luco , thanks! It almost kinda feels off now that I can face DK/DDD without getting chaingrabbed tho haha.

@ CyberHyperPhoenix , hello! Concerning Villager's recovery...

It's REALLY easy to pop the balloons themselves (any weak attack will do), but you have to pop both to send Villager into helpless but you must not hit Villager. If you do, I get my balloons back and just float my way back onstage.
I have not yet had anyone gimp me except a Ness main who PK Thunder'ed both my balloons (-.-) and Venks.
He has popped one of my balloons before and actually did succeed in gimping me that way. If you just pop one of the balloons it weakens Villager's recovery speed significantly, so that's a more reliable option.
This doesn't apply to the Explosive Balloons though (custom 2: "Extreme Balloon Trip"), since if you pop them, I get thrown up really far. Although I guess you can get free hits in while I'm in helpless.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Hi hi! I thought it was about time I went on Smashboards to check things out, but I probably won't be inputting much (I can answer any Villager questions tho!).

@ Luco , thanks! It almost kinda feels off now that I can face DK/DDD without getting chaingrabbed tho haha.

@ CyberHyperPhoenix , hello! Concerning Villager's recovery...

It's REALLY easy to pop the balloons themselves (any weak attack will do), but you have to pop both to send Villager into helpless but you must not hit Villager. If you do, I get my balloons back and just float my way back onstage.
I have not yet had anyone gimp me except a Ness main who PK Thunder'ed both my balloons (-.-) and Venks.
He has popped one of my balloons before and actually did succeed in gimping me that way. If you just pop one of the balloons it weakens Villager's recovery speed significantly, so that's a more reliable option.
This doesn't apply to the Explosive Balloons though (custom 2: "Extreme Balloon Trip"), since if you pop them, I get thrown up really far. Although I guess you can get free hits in while I'm in helpless.

Oooohhh kay, I understand now. Thanks

 

[Gords]

@ Villyness
did you save the replays of any of your tuorney matches, (custom and no customs) i enjoy playing villager and would love to see them. If so do you know of anyone else that has a 3ds capture card so they can record and upload them (obviously wouldnt work if you dont have the physical copy of the game unless you yourself have the cap card)

 

[dean.]

i saved my replays vs. her. am actually trying to upload grand finals of no customs now, it is the worst quality video ever though. she didn't win any games against me as villager though.

 

[Attila_]

V also uses Ness. Ness is far superior in the non-customs arena.

Most of Melbourne is against customs now, and the international community has pretty much universally moved against them. I doubt we'll see them at another tourney, but I suppose we'll wait for an apex ruleset.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

I at first initially supported the idea of having custom moves at tourneys, but after seeing them in action I'm kind of... on the fence about them now. I've seen alot of custom moves with wind boxes (thats what they're called right?) like Mario's custom cape, and they look really... powerful? Not OP, but kinda OP? I dunno how to explain it

But we should wait until apex and see what happens then.







(^ venks is going to be so annoyed at me for saying that )

 

[Villyness]

@ Gords , yeah, I saved some, but the only person I know with a 3DS capture card comes rarely, so it might be awhile before I can give you any.
The matches I had against DDD were really tough on Villager, so I had to switch to Ness since I really didn't like how I couldn't punish DDD with a grab. Also I couldn't challenge you with my fair at close range (dat hammer too strong).
Also Attila, I wouldn't say Ness is greatly superior in the non-customs arena. Definitely better at punishing with grabs because unlike Villager, when you see Ness's grab come out, you're already grabbed.
But they just play differently imo. I can still pull off combos with Villager. Just not as frequently because my Villager's more defensive.
...Idk, I haven't played my Ness against any of your characters (except Rosalina, but that was with customs), and for all I know, i could be very wrong, but that's how I feel. A lot of people have told me that my Ness is scary, but there are a lot of times where I've won with Villager where Ness couldn't. Without customs.
It all depends on character imo.

 

[Attila_]

I suppose I feel that Ness is a strong candidate for top tier; I don't feel the same about villager. He has trouble killing, struggles at close range, and has several angles in the air that he can't defend.

Top tier characters shouldn't lack these options.

Sheik is perhaps the exception here, as she has trouble killing characters she can't gimp. Lucky she gimps everyone lol

 

[Shaya]

Ness is definitely in my top 15.

Suddenly Ness killing you with back throw at 120% feels so much better than the grab games of everyone else, which don't give you a free 80% or 0-deaths.

 

[Venks]

I suppose I feel that Ness is a strong candidate for top tier; I don't feel the same about villager. He has trouble killing, struggles at close range, and has several angles in the air that he can't defend.

Top tier characters shouldn't lack these options.

Sheik is perhaps the exception here, as she has trouble killing characters she can't gimp. Lucky she gimps everyone lol

Ness is definitely in my top 15.

Suddenly Ness killing you with back throw at 120% feels so much better than the grab games of everyone else, which don't give you a free 80% or 0-deaths.

I think it's a little early to talk tiers. So many new characters, no Gamecube controllers, and not enough information to look at. I feel too many people these days base their opinions on tier-lists off of players they personally lose to rather than the character's overall performance globally.

My perceived top five would be: Rosalina, Diddy, Bowser, Sheik, and Robin.

I personally don't find Robin to be that strong of a character, but tournament results definitely show that Robin is one of the top performing characters. And this is excluding results from Nairo who has run quite a few tournaments with Robin.

Ness is definitely up there though. Nakat and V have been showing off how amazing Ness is in this game, but the character still has less tournament wins than my perceived top five and other high placers such as Dedede and Zero Suit Samus.

Then it's also worth considering that tiers probably aren't going to be that big of a deal in this game. I don't think there's a single unviable character on the roster. Even Palutena and Shulk, who are considered low tier, are taking multiple tournaments in competitive regions.

In this game I really feel it's all about match-ups. With custom moves enabled it gives a lot of characters tools that allows them to turn some disadvantageous match-ups into neutral ones. But without custom moves you're more inclined to just switch characters if you have a difficult match up.

I at first initially supported the idea of having custom moves at tourneys, but after seeing them in action I'm kind of... on the fence about them now. I've seen alot of custom moves with wind boxes (thats what they're called right?) like Mario's custom cape, and they look really... powerful? Not OP, but kinda OP? I dunno how to explain it

But we should wait until apex and see what happens then.

(^ venks is going to be so annoyed at me for saying that )

I'm really tired of seeing things like this. That something "looks OP". It either is or it isn't. In the fighting game community you usually play the game for a year before you make calls on what's OP. And even then you usually just get called out for being bad. It's pretty rare something most players complain about actually turns out to be universally considered OP.

If you want to prove that something is actually overpowered please do it with actual research and not your own personal experiences losing to something.

 

[EverAlert]

Even better, use it in tournament and win for free.

 

[Gords]

I'm really tired of seeing things like this. That something "looks OP". It either is or it isn't. In the fighting game community you usually play the game for a year before you make calls on what's OP. And even then you usually just get called out for being bad. It's pretty rare something most players complain about actually turns out to be universally considered OP.

If you want to prove that something is actually overpowered please do it with actual research and not your own personal experiences losing to something.

exactly why the move to ban customs even before the WiiU game is out is completely a rash decision imo. Give them 6-12 months and let a game develop around them. Although this wont work if the global community doesnt do thisas well. I Agree with @ PrettyCoolGuy in that we shouldnt diverge from the rest of the world so if they are going in the direction of no customs then we should too, as much as i dont want to see it.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

I think it's a little early to talk tiers. So many new characters, no Gamecube controllers, and not enough information to look at. I feel too many people these days base their opinions on tier-lists off of players they personally lose to rather than the character's overall performance globally.

My perceived top five would be: Rosalina, Diddy, Bowser, Sheik, and Robin.

I personally don't find Robin to be that strong of a character, but tournament results definitely show that Robin is one of the top performing characters. And this is excluding results from Nairo who has run quite a few tournaments with Robin.

Ness is definitely up there though. Nakat and V have been showing off how amazing Ness is in this game, but the character still has less tournament wins than my perceived top five and other high placers such as Dedede and Zero Suit Samus.

Then it's also worth considering that tiers probably aren't going to be that big of a deal in this game. I don't think there's a single unviable character on the roster. Even Palutena and Shulk, who are considered low tier, are taking multiple tournaments in competitive regions.

In this game I really feel it's all about match-ups. With custom moves enabled it gives a lot of characters tools that allows them to turn some disadvantageous match-ups into neutral ones. But without custom moves you're more inclined to just switch characters if you have a difficult match up.



I'm really tired of seeing things like this. That something "looks OP". It either is or it isn't. In the fighting game community you usually play the game for a year before you make calls on what's OP. And even then you usually just get called out for being bad. It's pretty rare something most players complain about actually turns out to be universally considered OP.

If you want to prove that something is actually overpowered please do it with actual research and not your own personal experiences losing to something.

Uhhhh, the hell are you talking about Venks?
Prove? What the hell do I have to prove? I never wanted to prove ANYTHING. Heck, I personally have never lost against Mario's customs in a match. And If I was trying to prove something, I would, oh I dunno research () about Mario custom cape and see if it really was OP or not

.

All of this because I couldn't find a way to appropriately word my sentence, plus it was like 11 PM and I was tired.


So Venks, you need to just calm down, shut up and read my post again before say or reply to anything .

Actually you know what Venks? Don't reply. You replying to this is going to get us into an argument that I don't wanna get in and probably gonna get us an infraction. So just don't.

 

[earla]

sup

i just checked out this recent clash tournament youmacon. they are still allowing customs. that was november 4th.

@Attila 'the international community has pretty much universally moved against them'. care to elaborate?

cheers

 

[Redact]

sup

i just checked out this recent clash tournament youmacon. they are still allowing customs. that was november 4th.

@Attila 'the international community has pretty much universally moved against them'. care to elaborate?

cheers

It's a convention, does that answer your question?

 

[earla]

smashleague NY. legal.

 

[Shaya]

Keitaro stated on Facebook that he won't be having custom specials at KTAR, which is practically a Day 1 WiiU tournament.
Makes completely logistical sense.
He then also said "with things as they are, I don't know if they should be around for apex" (in similar words). He said that with a bit of ignorance, a few of his justifications were talked to him about and were 'resolved'. Right now sensationalism points us towards Mii Brawler's Up-B 2 being 'stupid' and 'UNLOCKING CUSTOM SPECIALS FOR 49 CHARACTERS ON EVERY WIIU? BAN EM'.
At this stage, I think customs will need to be banned at Apex, but that's just because of the size of apex and it needing to be straight forward with a lot of things: for us we can just say 'customs are your responsibility, if you cannot transfer it with a 3DS or arrange it before hand for a wiiu, tough luck' but at Apex something like this doesn't fly. By the time we get to apex we may otherwise have ways to easily unlock all customs/port saves, but if they're going to need to release a ruleset early (professional thing) then I'm expecting the decision. All I can pray and hope for is that people don't suddenly use these logistical reasons for banning custom specials although their bias against them are based off of salt / 'a move or two' that seems lame, and in 6 months time we're not just "ohh too late to add them to the meta now, lelelel" (MK in Brawl all over again) and accept their place in diversifying the game.

... ban Mii Up-b2 (it's unintended, Samus had the same thing in the demos forever and it got removed by release), realise that the logistics won't be an issue with our current tournament sizes, widespread 3DS usage and tournaments take forever already.

Facebook really blew up with this, and the pro-ban were very loud and very vocal for a long stint while pro-customs got flooded out. I think immediately switching over your ruleset as a response to keitaro AND/OR a weekend of people crying about mii brawler that don't even run tournaments is plain stupid.

I have most of the Americans on facebook Attila does, I know exactly what ******** posts he's reading. I know the regions of players over there that are pro-customs which aren't on his radar/friends list. Oh well.

 

[dean.]

i think chibo has customs legal. considering i have a medal with his name on it i'm going to have to back senpai on this.

 

[Splice]

The thing is it's yet to be proven to me that customs are even worth the trouble.
I don't think they diversify the game as much as they dilute it.
They don't appear to make the tier list less exclusive, from what I've seen.
And a character having a way to beat a top tier solely based around a single broken move is not a 'fix' I can appreciate.

 

[Shaya]

And a character having a way to beat a top tier solely based around a single broken move is not a 'fix' I can appreciate.

I was agreeing with you until here, then it was just unjustified junk. if anyone can get away with winning against a top tier with just a single move, they probably aren't top tier. Some characters just flat out have better versions of their moves for competitive situations that aren't broadly different. With Falco's different up-b I can afford to go off stage deeper because I can recover from the bottom of the blast zone, Marth's dash counter activates faster, but has a smaller counter window and does more damage, for me it's a universally better version of 'counter', Pikachu's heavy skull bash comes out faster but doesn't have kill power outside of it right in front of it's face, by removing damage/kill power at a distance it's taken away some of it's low-level cheese and compensated it with just a better move (much like Marth's dash counter).

If single moves are that centralising, we can ban them.
I'd really like you to list characters with these single broken moves that no one can deal with and back it up with tournament results. Single moves shouldn't be the reason to basically cull the game. Let's just ban all flat stages because of infinite dimension cape, closest analogy I can compare this level of idiocy with (all that would do is make it slightly harder to input consistently, the results would still be the same: i.e. V winning).

 

[Splice]

That comment was based with problems I have with the balance design that is in PM.
I haven't experienced a gimmick move being a way for a lesser character to thwart a top tier in Smash 4 yet, and I have no idea what is top tier either. But some of the reason some people want custom moves is to *hopefully* let lesser characters overcome top tiers but if it were to work like this based off one move, then I don't think the gameplay would be that deep or great.
There are some MU's that are based around one move or little thing in PM and I don't like this.
e.g: Mewtwo's Crouch Cancel options > Metaknight
I don't actually have any examples that are a low tier beating a top tier with one move but that's not my argument in the first place and neither is the thing you asked me to provide tournament results for.

I'll leave you back to the thread so you can call other people's comments unjustified junk while you respond with examples that disprove nothing and extrapolate crap analogies that kill brain cells

 

[Dre89]

Customs will likely become cookie cutter, like item and talent builds in mobas and mmos. I doubt there will be many scenarios where a character normally takes option A, but takes option B against a specific character.

 

[AIU_PooP]

Personally, I think customs shouldn't be banned, even though I don't use them. Customs add a different element to the game, a bit of uncertainty and they are still part of the game, so why should they be banned? Omega forms should still be banned though!

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Personally, I think customs shouldn't be banned, even though I don't use them. Customs add a different element to the game, a bit of uncertainty and they are still part of the game, so why should they be banned? Omega forms should still be banned though!

What? Why are Omega stages bad?

 

[AIU_PooP]

What? Why are Omega stages bad?

I just think that the emphasis on FD ruins the game for the platform and aerial based characters and then the top tiers will and have become characters that thrive on FD but aren't as good on battlefield and tomodachi etc.

 

[Lex__]

I just think that the emphasis on FD ruins the game for the platform and aerial based characters and then the top tiers will and have become characters that thrive on FD but aren't as good on battlefield and tomodachi etc.

If omega would be allowed it would be on the same spot as FD

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

I just think that the emphasis on FD ruins the game for the platform and aerial based characters and then the top tiers will and have become characters that thrive on FD but aren't as good on battlefield and tomodachi etc.

Omega stages will still be in tournaments. There have been Ideas of having Omega stages banned when FD is banned as well. I think its a good idea tbh.

 

[AIU_PooP]

If omega would be allowed it would be on the same spot as FD

But it'd be only one Omega/FD then they could be banned right? Rather than going through the 20-odd Omegas that are in the game, yeah?

Omega stages will still be in tournaments. There have been Ideas of having Omega stages banned when FD is banned as well. I think its a good idea tbh.

Yeah, I was more so saying ALL omegas banned when FD is banned

 

[Luco]

So... what are our thoughts on stages for the wii U?

 

[Splice]

So... what are our thoughts on stages for the wii U?

Battlefield