Meta Australian Smash 4 General Ruleset Discussion

[Lex__]

Ill start, the coin stage that's based on super mario is def #banned, it has way too much money for it to be a major SA tournament.

 

[M]

Ill start, the coin stage that's based on super mario is def #banned, it has way too much money for it to be a major SA tournament.

Some might consider that a pot bonus.

 

[Dre89]

Is Jungle Hijinxs out of the question for legality?

I think after using a barrel, you have to wait a certain time before being able to use another. Part of the foreground stage disappears then reappears later. There's also falling hazard, but it's incredibly telegraphed because someone has to barrel into it to knock it over. Not only does this telegraph when it'll happen, but it should always be dodgeable as one fighter has to shoot from a barrel to trigger it.

Edit- The background stage is an increased knockback zone to compensate for the longer distance from the blast zones.

 

[Gords]

ok serious questions wanting serious answers (with details, no one liners please)
preferably from significant people in the brawl community that have been around in the tournament scene for ages and have a good understanding and knowledge of the brawl meta throughout its lifetime.

So I remember the following stages being legal counterpicks when I was still playing/following brawl seriously (early 2012-ish I think)
delfino plaza
frigate orpheon
I would like to know when and more importantly why these stages are no longer counterpicks.
like what were the issues on these stages and what about Brawl's engine, gameplay, balance and/or match ups that made these issues so big it was felt that they were no longer viable as counterpicks.

Also I am hearing a lot of discussion on that transformations, interruptive stage hazards, breakable/unstable stage assets, temporary walls/walk offs are all undesirable and ban worthy.
however to my knowledge Battleship Halberd, Pokemon Stadium 1 and Castle Siege all have one or more of these features.
So what about them makes them viable over say Delphino Plaza.
like why did Delphino Plaza go and Castle Siege stay for example.

Thirdly, if Lylat has issues (like the moving edges/difficulty seeing grenades) that either hinder or aid certain character why is this stage still considered neutral and not a counterpick in Brawls stage lists?

 

[Lex__]

@ Gords

http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2l2awo/lets_remember_why_stages_were_banned_in_brawl/

Hey guys, with Smash 4 on the Wii U approaching I thought we should look back to the past. I've seen a lot of people already "banning" stages in the Wii U version, without the game even being out yet. So I did some research to find out how they banned stages in Brawl. At first, Brawl had 16 banned stages and 25 legal stages. Through years of tournaments that list was slowly brought down to 8 legal stages. Those stages are Final Destination, Battlefield, Smashville, Lylat Cruise, Yoshi's Island (Brawl), Castle Siege, Pokemon Stadium, and Halberd. Note that there might be more legal stages on some stage lists because many bans were controversial. Also, Halberd might occasionally be swapped out for stages that were banned because Meta Knight was too good. I will mark the returning stages with a 4. So lets jump in

Mario Bros

Overcentralising Gameplay tactic in the koopas, crabs, and bees.

Mushroomy Kingdom (1-14 and 1-2)

Scrolls too fast, Caves of Life, no grabbable edges

Luigi's Mansion4

I'm not too sure actually, something about teching I believe. This stage still might see tournament use, but its rare.

Delphino Plaza4

Picking Meta Knight was considered an instant win. King DeDeDe was also too good on this stage

Mario Circuit4

Characters King DeDeDe and Ice Climbers could easily abuse walk-offs through chain grabs.

Warioware Inc.4

Randomly awarded prizes and focus on winning mini-games

75m4

Over large but cramped stage. Focus on the Upper Right Corner of the stage.

Rumble Falls

Overcentralising Gameplay tactic in Jumping to avoid death. Changes how the game is played.

Pirate Ship

Camping in the water. Plank too unpredictable and can OHKO.

Bridge of Eldin4

Characters King DeDeDe and Ice Climbers could easily abuse walk-offs through chain grabs.

Norfair4

Stalling by abusing ledge invincibility.

Frigate Orpheon

Picking Meta Knight was considered and instant win.

Pokemon Stadium 24

Heavily debate as great or awful. Still could see some tournament use by believers in it. Main transformation of debate was Electric, where the conveyer belts pushed players out. Edit: I'd like to add that most people consider this the worst case of knee-jerk banning. Many players didn't like it so it was banned which led to more and more banning. When analyzing the stage, many say the various transformations benefit the stage and reward players who learn it.

Spear Pillar

Overcentralising gameplay tactic in circle camping. Palkia considered too disorienting.

Port Town Aero Dive4

No grabbable ledges on main platform. Cars have a bit too much KO power.

New Pork City

Overly large. Wall could be abused for wall infinites. OHKO hazard in that Ultimate Chimera.

Summit

Walls could be abused for wall infinites. Overpowerful hazard in the Fish.

Flatzone 24

Blastzones too close to the stage, allowing for extremely early KOs.

Skyworld4

Destructible ledges, leaving no grabbable ledges left. Caves of life too present.

Distant Planet4

Overpower camping spot at bottom of slant. Sharking. Meta Knight considered too powerful.

Pictochat

Some transformations are too powerful or intrusive.

Hanebow

Overpowerful camping spot in leaf at the bottom.

Green Hill Zone4

Overcentralising gameplay tactic in Checkpoint (Signpost) camping.

Shadow Moses Island

King DeDeDe considered an instant win here.

Rainbow Cruise

Meta Knight considered to have an instant win on this stage.

Yoshi's Island4

Characters King DeDeDe and Ice Climbers could easily abuse walk-offs through chain grabs.

Jungle Japes4

Stage might have been banned on false information. Water can actually be swam in and Klaptrap is on a timer and not as powerful. The ceiling is the highest in the game. This stage changed for the worst in Smash 4 as the claptrap is more powerful and the water is faster and can't be swam in.

Temple4

Overcentralising gameplay tactic in circle camping.

Brinstar4

Meta Knight was considered an instant win on this stage.

Green Greens

Camping powerful on both sides, and falling blocks allowed for wall-infinites.

Corneria4

Walls allowed for wall-infinites.

Big Blue

Stage allows for circle camping and stalling through the many flying platforms.

Onett4

Characters King DeDeDe and Ice Climbers could easily abuse walk-offs through chain grabs.

So thats why each stage were banned? There are 2 main criteria when banning a stage.

1. Stages are overcentralising and single tactic or strategy.
   
   
2. Stages are marginalizing player skills

It should be noted that stages are NOT banned for being "stupid" or "janky." So I hope you all take this into consideration when you finally get the game. For more, Here is my post on Smash 64[1] , and Melee[2] .

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

ok serious questions wanting serious answers (with details, no one liners please)
preferably from significant people in the brawl community that have been around in the tournament scene for ages and have a good understanding and knowledge of the brawl meta throughout its lifetime.

So I remember the following stages being legal counterpicks when I was still playing/following brawl seriously (early 2012-ish I think)
delfino plaza
frigate orpheon
I would like to know when and more importantly why these stages are no longer counterpicks.
like what were the issues on these stages and what about Brawl's engine, gameplay, balance and/or match ups that made these issues so big it was felt that they were no longer viable as counterpicks.

Also I am hearing a lot of discussion on that transformations, interruptive stage hazards, breakable/unstable stage assets, temporary walls/walk offs are all undesirable and ban worthy.
however to my knowledge Battleship Halberd, Pokemon Stadium 1 and Castle Siege all have one or more of these features.
So what about them makes them viable over say Delphino Plaza.
like why did Delphino Plaza go and Castle Siege stay for example.

Thirdly, if Lylat has issues (like the moving edges/difficulty seeing grenades) that either hinder or aid certain character why is this stage still considered neutral and not a counterpick in Brawls stage lists?

Delfino (from my understanding) was banned for another reason: Sharking, which consists of going underneath the platform to attack opponents from there. As far as I know, this tactic was largely employed bay alot of MK players in Brawl (the ones I played anyway), which (from what i saw) pissed alot of people off, since there weren't many chances to counter attack them.
Some players also think that this stage makes MK too powerful, so they banned it in hope of reducing the chances of MK players getting "free wins" when they get their chance to Counter pick. Dedede was also considered to be VERY good on this stage.
Plus its MK, wadiya gonna do?

Can't think of anything else when it comes to delfino, besides the ones that you mentioned in your OP.

Frigate was banned because of the stage flipping thing that caused alot of unintentional Self Destructs. Sometimes the ledges were ungrabbable and created alot of disadvantages for characters who had/or utilized alot of their tether recoveries (Zero Suit, Olimar). Also hard for anyone or any character that relied on recovering to the edge alot. Considered Insta Win with MK.

 

[Luco]

Delfino (from my understanding) was banned for another reason: Sharking, which consists of going underneath the platform to attack opponents from there. As far as I know, this tactic was largely employed bay alot of MK players in Brawl (the ones I played anyway), which (from what i saw) pissed alot of people off, since there weren't many chances to counter attack them.
Some players also think that this stage makes MK too powerful, so they banned it in hope of reducing the chances of MK players getting "free wins" when they get their chance to Counter pick. Dedede was also considered to be VERY good on this stage.
Plus its MK, wadiya gonna do?

Can't think of anything else when it comes to delfino, besides the ones that you mentioned in your OP.

Frigate was banned because of the stage flipping thing that caused alot of unintentional Self Destructs. Sometimes the ledges were ungrabbable and created alot of disadvantages for characters who had/or utilized alot of their tether recoveries (Zero Suit, Olimar). Also hard for anyone or any character that relied on recovering to the edge alot. Considered Insta Win with MK.

This is rather accurate.

Delfino obviously had walk-offs at times and in a game where CGs were prevalent, this meant bad things if you got caught near the edge. At other times it had walls which meant some characters, DDD included, could do ridiculous CGs against those walls. The other thing about Delfino was at times, if you wanted to approach you had to do it aerially - because this was an obvious disadvantage, people waited out these transformations which overall wasn't considered 'fun' or conducive to gameplay.

Frigate's non-grabbable ledges were considered annoying by most players, even those that could recover on it. I don't have as much to say on this stage, obviously the flip disrupted the match which may have been annoying as well.

With smash 4's lack of CGs, I would argue Delfino should most certainly be legal once more. If Frigate is back (I can't remember off the top of my head), I would be indifferent either way. It wasn't one of my favourite Brawl stages but I was fine with it really.

 

[Shaya]

Going by what we're seeing with the pokemon delfino, is that sharking doesn't seem too bad, nor do those platforms on the side seem to have any camping consequence either. Best sharker this game's probably Ike and G&W, true story, but they have so much more risk to them.

All the stages we banned due to MK are probably worth giving another shot, maybe not Frigate. But I hate Frigate. **** Frigate.

 

[Lex__]

Can we all agree that

WALK OFFS/MOVING STAGE
[collapse="Banlist"]
Mario Galaxy (walk offs)

Mushroom kingdom U (Moving and walkoffs and minigame thing)

Woolly world (walkoff's, circle camping)

boxing ring (Stage hazard, walk off)

Wii fit studios (walk off)

Flatzone 2 (stage hazard walk off)

Onnet(walk offs)

Coliseum (Walk offs)

Port town aero (Walk offs and hazards)

Bridge of eldin (walkoffs, way to big and semi circle camping)

Pacland (moving stage)
[/collapse]
Mini game jank/Stage hazard
[collapse="Banlist"]

Mario circuit Brawl (same thing)

75m (Do I need to explain this, but atleast there isnt walk offs)

Gamer (minigame jank)

Pyrosphere(boss)

Norfair (lava things)

Wily castle(boss)

Gaur plain (boss)

[/collapse]
Stage is too big or circle camping
[collapse="Banlist"]
Great cave offensive (WAY to big)

palutena's temple (to big)

Garden of hope (to big)

Temple (circle camping way to big)

Luigi's mansion (cave of life)
[/collapse]
Probably banned (General list)[collapse="Prob banned"]
Mario circuit (Roof sometimes, karts come and knock you around)

Wrecking crew(stage hazards)

Windy hill zone ( way to big)

Orbital Gate Assault (look at gords post)

Skyloft (look at gords post)

Jungle Hijinxs (Weird barrels sometimes blocking people from going through, circle camping, back platforms disapearing)
[/collapse]
Not banned (general list which can then get shortened)
[collapse="non auto banned"]
Battlefield

Big Battlefield

Final destination

Delfino Plaza

Kongo jungle 64

Halberd

Lylat Cruise

Kalos Pokèmon league

Pokemon standium 2

Caslte siege

Town and city

Smashville

Duck Hunt

Pilot Wings

Wuhu Island

Miiverse

Omega FD
[/collapse]

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Ignore this post

 

[Lex__]

I have since added the not banned and made it neater, can you remove your post so there is no confusion of whats what?

 

[Gords]

Thanks guys for clearing some of that up and that redit post was great, kinda what i was looking for.
i didnt think that delphino was banned for sharking especially when Halberd is legal and just as easy to employ sharking on,

All the stages we banned due to MK are probably worth giving another shot, maybe not Frigate. But I hate Frigate. **** Frigate.

I completely agree with this statement and that similar stages to those banned due to MK, DeDeDe, ice climbers should also be considered for possible allowed stages. Also I believe norfair returns instead of frigate however i still see it being banned due to the stage hazards alone rather than the ladge campiung with is kinda not a thing in Smash 4

@ CyberHyperPhoenix you dont need to qoute a whole post to make a general response to it, especially when its the post immediately before your own. part of a post that you are specifically referring to is still ok as i have done with shaya's post here

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

@ Gords
Lol, its just something I tend to do alot, I'll try tho

@ Lex__
No worries

 

[Luco]

Thanks guys for clearing some of that up and that redit post was great, kinda what i was looking for.
i didnt think that delphino was banned for sharking especially when Halberd is legal and just as easy to employ sharking on.

Well not that alone - it's just Delfino's other hazards overall made it a frustrating stage to play on when you put them all together. Sharking + CGs + unviable ways to approach at different times = people eventually got tired of it.

Funnily enough, i still love and always have loved that stage, so with most of these ^ being much less of an issue, I'm totes on the 'it's totally legal' bandwagon.

 

[Gords]

@ Lex__
stages that you have banned that I would consider for testing,

• Mushroom kingdom U - although Dang Nabbit, I can see him single handedly destroying the chances of it being a reasonable CP
• Mario circuit - roofs/walls etc dont really last long (<= to ferox transforms by the looks of it) and need to see how much damage karts actually do (I am considering rainbow road for 3DS CP)
• Jungle Hijinxs - need to play it to actually understand how this stage works and plays out (vids doesnt do this really) but i can see possible circle camping being a problem, but hazards dont look that random
• Wrecking crew - wtf is this stage, what exactly are the hazards? I have no idea how this stage actually works so similar reason to Jungle Hijinx except x10
• Windy hill zone - doesnt look that much bigger than big FD in my opinion (from looking at gameplay footage) which should make it totally viable CP

stages that you have said shouldnt be auto banned but i can see instaban worthiness already.

• Skyloft - platforms are destructable, while there they are a cave like feature and while destroyed there are no ledges.
• Orbital Gate Assault - moving stage that has weird moving platforms/ledges at time and at other times hazards can actually cause harm. i can see camping/walls possibly being a problem during some areas as well. i think this should still be tested though, but yeah not looking good.

 

[Attila_]

Can't say I expected the thread to derail like that. Geez.

I don't think big battlefield will work; circle camp for days. Slow characters simply won't be able to catch faster ones.

@ Gords :Frigate was a pretty easy ban, but not for the reasons that most people expect. The thing about firgate was that the game decided (RNG based) at the start of the match which transformation was going to be more prevalent. This provided a randomness element to the stage which neither player could actually predict. Obviously the side platforms and missing edge didn't help it out either.

Delphino is kinda tricky. It goes in a predictable order, which is nice, but it does have a lot of elements that work against it. Walk offs, water, walls and huge sharking potential led it to be shut down. MK was too good here.

Halberd had similar issues, but not as strong. It was largely kept for a while because the community felt that 6 stages was too small a list, and halberd was probably the next best stage. Sharking could be met with platform camping, which would then be minimized once the ship landed. Good to mention that Halberd was also banned during the last year or so of brawl's meta.

I'd expect to see the comeback of castle seige; no chaingrabs anymore. 2nd trans will probably be camped out, but nothing too crazy about the other trans at this point.

@ Lex__ :Whoever made that reddit list is terrible.

^ 3DS or WiiU?

It's a major. You haven't heard of it?

Kappa

 

[Lex__]

@ Lex__
stages that you have banned that I would consider for testing,

• Mushroom kingdom U - although Dang Nabbit, I can see him single handedly destroying the chances of it being a reasonable CP
• Mario circuit - roofs/walls etc dont really last long (<= to ferox transforms by the looks of it) and need to see how much damage karts actually do (I am considering rainbow road for 3DS CP)
• Jungle Hijinxs - need to play it to actually understand how this stage works and plays out (vids doesnt do this really) but i can see possible circle camping being a problem, but hazards dont look that random
• Wrecking crew - wtf is this stage, what exactly are the hazards? I have no idea how this stage actually works so similar reason to Jungle Hijinx except x10
• Windy hill zone - doesnt look that much bigger than big FD in my opinion (from looking at gameplay footage) which should make it totally viable CP

stages that you have said shouldnt be auto banned but i can see instaban worthiness already.

• Skyloft - platforms are destructable, while there they are a cave like feature and while destroyed there are no ledges.
• Orbital Gate Assault - moving stage that has weird moving platforms/ledges at time and at other times hazards can actually cause harm. i can see camping/walls possibly being a problem during some areas as well. i think this should still be tested though, but yeah not looking good.

- Mushroom kingdom U - I auto banned it because of dang nabbit and the ice falling that looks like it will hurt people. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fC2IVWt4It4#t=87 Shows exactly why I consider it banned, and it seems to show up every transformation, specially with how long matches will take we could see him taking more stocks in a match then players

- Mario Circuit - I kinda agree, will look into this creating a second list called Probably banned, that will need more checking out.

- Jungle hijinx - Yeah I agree for sure maybe it will be a better doubles stage. added to the probably banned list

- Wrecking crew - is like tomadochi life except the ceiling is low with a high platform and bombs are stage hazard which then explodes the walls which deal damage. Ill put it on the probably banned list

-Windyhill zone - Im going to put it on the prob list aswell.

The ones you say is prob auto ban, ill put them on the list.

 

[Dre89]

Jungle Hijinxs - need to play it to actually understand how this stage works and plays out (vids doesnt do this really) but i can see possible circle camping being a problem, but hazards dont look that random

Which part of the stage do you think is suspect for circle camping?

As for the hazards, I don't know how random they are, but they're telegraphed. The collapsing foreground is telegraphed by a green triangle that appears in the area for five seconds before it collapses. There's a barrel in the gap that explodes and then dissappears on use. It would be pretty hard to make use of that offensively (if it even does damage). You would have to get your opponent down there in the first place, put them in some form of hitstun (probably off the wall or something) and then jump in the barrel to time the explosion to hit them.

The stage seemed to regenerate after about 15-20 seconds, but that was from just one video clip so I don't know if that varies or not.

The other hazard, the screaming pillar is probably far too telegraphed to be of concern. It appears randomly, but to trigger it someone has to barrel into it on the foreground (it then falls into the background). It'd be practically impossible to hit a competent opponent with this because the players have to be on different layers of the stage, and then the barrel will point where it's aiming, alerting the player that the pillar will be hit.

Basically, it'd be incredibly difficult to use the hazards offensively, or to get KO'd by said hazards. I think the legality questions arise from potential abuse of the foreground collapsing, and potentially abusing the duel-layering.

 

[M]

Sharking definitely a much weaker option this time around due to things such as MK nerfs and the removal of ledge regrab invincibility. I think this easily means Delphino and Halberd are worth a second go around.

Walkoffs also less prominent with chaingrabs removed as Attila said. Could get a bit iffy regardless as we could see stupid cheesy strats such as sitting near the blastzone fishing for a backthrow ko on characters that need to approach to do damage, but I still don't see it being the dominant playstyle in those transformations and think it may be worth our time for the early meta at least.

Same applies to Delphino, it's walkoffs not being as frequently available as Castle Siege (which still seems like a fine stage now imo) making it a much safer choice than it was in Brawl. Also SWIMMING removed? Count me in.

I'm not sure whether its been mentioned here as I don't want to wade through the horrible unproductive posts plaguing this thread, but I would like a well constructed opinion on Kalos League. I personally see it as a fine counterpick with only 1 major hazard (the short lived water stream) that is no more pace-breaking than Halberd attacks or the Fire transformation in Pokemon Stadium 1 in Brawl/Melee. I want to know what other people who have paid much attention to the stage think of it.

 

[Lex__]

Same applies to Delphino, it's walkoffs not being as frequently available as Castle Siege (which still seems like a fine stage now imo) making it a much safer choice than it was in Brawl. Also SWIMMING removed? Count me in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVA4BSvFWJE

Swimming has not been removed Peach at 0:06 seconds

 

[M]

Welllllllllllll. Damn. This is why they removed Ness' dair.

 

[Gords]

thanks @ Attila_ that explains it well. i didnt know halberd was banned for a time, its still on the smashboards ruleset list for counterpicks. I do see though since since MK has been nerfed (and no other characters appear to have the same ludicrous balance) and that sharking, and chaingrabs are no longer a big issue that these stages would make these stage reasonable counterpicks now.
Also regarding big battlefield, i dont think circle camping will be too big a problem, no more than what it would be on a stage like Kongo 64. I can see the problem being no more a problem than say what Westballz was doing to Armada on Battlefield at TBH4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iGB_5LFBAE), and we dont see battlefield being discussed. Although your right in that slower characters will have more an issue with this than others which probably means this stage would be more suited to counterpicking rather than starter. I'd say that it definately needs to be played for a while to assess the severity of the issue.

@ Lex__ regarding
Mushroom Kingdom U - basically if Nabbit is inescapable it should be banned, however he seems relatively easily avoid and if its possible to break out of his bag like you can with Beetle or Galagan then the stage becomes somewhat reasonable.
yes the ice block does about 10 damage and can freeze but a little ice ball drops first to tell you when and where its coming.

Wrecking crew - do you know of a video showing that the walls or whatever does damage when it collapses. so far i can see it anywhere that actually does damage, but i dont know how the barrels work. so far the only issues i see with this stage are the same issues that tomodachi life has (close blast zones possible circle camping.

@ Dre89
the hazards on jungle hijinx seem pretty telegraphed and user triggers, the circle camping would be players abusing the dual-layering as in cont. running away from your opponent by going to the other layer. yes i know there are some measures put in to try and avoid this but if half the match is taken up in barrel shot animations thats not good. basically what will happen is we end up testing which player has more skill in getting to the barrel rather than an actual game. but we will need to see exactly how the barrels work to make this call.

I'm not sure whether its been mentioned here as I don't want to wade through the horrible unproductive posts plaguing this thread, but I would like a well constructed opinion on Kalos League. I personally see it as a fine counterpick with only 1 major hazard (the short lived water stream) that is no more pace-breaking than Halberd attacks or the Fire transformation in Pokemon Stadium 1 in Brawl/Melee. I want to know what other people who have paid much attention to the stage think of it.

Spoiler: so far the transformation i have seen are

• water (Wailord) - http://youtu.be/RVmQy3-Kpqo?t=6s
  • 2 small platforms above main platform, walk-offs, fast stream of water that can come from either direction (can tell by slant of the ramps) carry you to death but is easily avoidable and escapable, if your on the ramp when it goes to transform it will take you with it (think frigate moving platform)
• Water (manaphy) - http://youtu.be/en94jEAD-_4?t=3m52s
  • like the other water stage above except no water stream but main platform opens up into a giant whirlpool that drags people toward a whole in the centre (cant really tell how strong this is due to stupid final smash)
• dragon (dragons) - http://youtu.be/6V2EdGw4tnk?t=1m3s
  • 2 semi-slanted platforms above main platform, after a short bit the dragon statue in the back does an attack that makes a pillar of dark fire on the stage (telegraphed and avoidable, cant tell what kind of damage and knockback it has if any)
• Dragon (rayquaza) - http://youtu.be/en94jEAD-_4?t=2m53s
  • like the other dragon stage except no pokemon appear in the back ground, instead rayquaza comes flying in which does damage (20%ish) and knockback. his trajectory is either vertically on the sides of the stage or horizontally over it which can be identified be a lighting animation just before he comes in.
• fire (starters) - http://youtu.be/RVmQy3-Kpqo?t=1m3s
  • 2 platforms that rise due to pillars of fire, fire pillars to very little damage (<5%) and flinches, projectiles can move through the fire pillar and you can be pushed through it as well .
• Steel (steelix) - http://youtu.be/en94jEAD-_4?t=1m3s
  • 2 swords fall from above that does damage (10%) and knockback on the way down. the hilt of the swords becomes platforms, the blades create walls where the diamond part of the blade right near the hilt does very little damage (<5%) and flinches. you can hit the hilts to drop the platforms height.
• Steel (registeel) - http://youtu.be/en94jEAD-_4?t=4m41s
  • same as steelix except at some point the swords are pulled from the main platform and spin around. when this happens grounded players get buried and take 15%, swords do 15% as well and considerable knockback. definately the most intrusive transformation.

each transformation lasts for about 40s with about 20s between transformations.
every time the stage transforms the platforms on them rise which can kill you out the top if you remain on them.
definitely more hazardous/pace-breaking than halberd or PS1, especially rayquaza, manaphy and registeel tranforms
i would be willing to give it a go and probably will but there are certain forms which will likely see this stage get banned.

 

[Luco]

I can't see it as being legal for very long but heck i'm gonna enjoy playing on it for the first tournament!

I think Jungle Hijinx will heavily depend on the midset of the players involved. In most matches circle camping probably won't be that big of an issue, but it may be come prevalent with some players where it becomes a game of 'get to the barrel, avoud the other person for x seconds until I can use the barrel again.'

But personally i'd like to try the stage out before we dismiss it.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

I think windy should be a cp. Its not that big, not like Garden of hope big anyway. The only reason its "big" is because of the damn windmill on the side.... thats just how I see it anyway

 

[Gords]

@M to add onto my Kalos league analysis, the fire transformation also seems to randomly spawn a large pillar of fire sometime to the side of the stage which damages and has small knock back

 

[dean.]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMlBx1hbqZY#t=4m10s

did manaphy spawn that smash ball? considering there were no other items in that game.
also that registeel hazard seems BAD. but without knowing the full details (i.e. waiting for the game to come out) i can't really make a full judgment.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMlBx1hbqZY#t=4m10s

did manaphy spawn that smash ball? considering there were no other items in that game.
also that registeel hazard seems BAD. but without knowing the full details (i.e. waiting for the game to come out) i can't really make a full judgment.

Maybe the item frequency was set to low and only the smash ball was on.... I dunno, just a guess

 

[Attila_]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMlBx1hbqZY#t=4m10s

did manaphy spawn that smash ball? considering there were no other items in that game.
also that registeel hazard seems BAD. but without knowing the full details (i.e. waiting for the game to come out) i can't really make a full judgment.

It might be as simple as turning items to 'off' and 'none', but we can't be sure.

100% agree that the registeel trans is really dumb though. Spinning swords that kill and walls that do damage? No thanks.

 

[Gords]

the swords themselves arent that much a problem, its just the top of the blade near the hilt that does almost nothing. walls arent that much of an issue in this game (yes still an issue but nowhere near the problem they are in other smash games) since the attacking character now get pushed away, I feel walls in this game act more like the end of stages in traditional 2D fighters.

But yeah the steel version with registeel spinning the swords is pretty dumb and kinda wrecks this stage for me casually speaking as well. like everything else is "fair enough"

 

[Dre89]

By the way what's the verdict on Kongo Jungle 64? I heard it was banned in Melee due to barrel-stalling. It's not banned in 64 tourneys though so I dunno.

 

[Dekar289]

the extreme height creates problems, and 64 took whatever it could get

 

[Dre89]

the extreme height creates problems, and 64 took whatever it could get

Does a high ceiling make it banworthy though?

I think it'd be a candidate for neutral stage if not for the barrel. I think it's fine for a CP, I suppose high ceilings count as a CP option against characters who rely on vertical KOs.

 

[Dekar289]

not just the high ceiling, but the vertical distance between stage floor and left and right platforms opens up lots of camping opportunities for various characters.

 

[Dre89]

not just the high ceiling, but the vertical distance between stage floor and left and right platforms opens up lots of camping opportunities for various characters.

Wouldn't the central platforms help alleviate the stall issue though? The central platforms lessen the distance, meaning that you have to commit less actions to reach someone on the top platforms. Plus they'll have to go through you to get to the platform on the other side.

 

[Dekar289]

i would have thought so too, but at least in melee some characters were just too quick and could use the setup way better than others, falco for instance.
then again this might not be an issue in smash 4...!

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

i would have thought so too, but at least in melee some characters were just too quick and could use the setup way better than others, falco for instance.
then again this might not be an issue in smash 4...!

Seriously tho, once it releases we will see, but I think we should have Kongo Jungle as a cp.

 

[Dre89]

I know this is really premature, but evidence points towards Kongo Jungle Melee returning. Just wanted to know if that would be banned or not. I'm guessing it would be because it's apparently banned in Melee.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

I know this is really premature, but evidence points towards Kongo Jungle Melee returning. Just wanted to know if that would be banned or not. I'm guessing it would be because it's apparently banned in Melee.

Can we see this evidence? Or at least explain it to us?

 

[Dre89]

It's not absolute, but I'll explain it anyway.

Apparently the way the SSS is set up, there's a free slot next to the two DK stages, so people have speculated that DK will get another stage.

The DK rap is missing, which is pretty much the only DK song from past Smashes that isn't in this game (It was on Kongo Jungle Melee).

Most significantly, Kongo Jungle (the N64 stage) got renamed 'Kongo Jungle 64'. That may have been done to distinguish between two Kongo Jungles.

Like I said it's nothing concrete, so I wasn't planning on generating a massive discussion like I would with something like Jungle Hijinxs. Just looking for a quick yes or no to legality.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

It's not absolute, but I'll explain it anyway.

Apparently the way the SSS is set up, there's a free slot next to the two DK stages, so people have speculated that DK will get another stage.

The DK rap is missing, which is pretty much the only DK song from past Smashes that isn't in this game (It was on Kongo Jungle Melee).

Most significantly, Kongo Jungle (the N64 stage) got renamed 'Kongo Jungle 64'. That may have been done to distinguish between two Kongo Jungles.

Like I said it's nothing concrete, so I wasn't planning on generating a massive discussion like I would with something like Jungle Hijinxs. Just looking for a quick yes or no to legality.

eehhhhhhh....... We'll have to wait until some info leaks pre-release or when the game releases

Someone over at the social thread found these:

Wuhu Island confirmed legal?