Meta Australian Smash 4 General Ruleset Discussion

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Dat wuhu Island tho...

Battlefield

Da bessssss

 

[Shaya]

I'm really liking big battlefield for 1v1s when I'm playing toon link.

Heuheuheu.

 

[Bu$]

Anyone think we could incorporate smooth landing as the competitive standard? I think with some testing and research it could be possible.

 

[UpDown13]

Has anyone got a reasonable stage list to start with?

 

[Song_]

My list.

Starters:

Battlefield
Big Battlefield (Doubles + Squads)
FD
Lylat Cruise
Smashville

Counter Picks:
Mario Circuit
Delfino Plaza
Kongo Jungle (Doubles)
Temple (Squads)
Town and City
Pilotwings
Any Omega stages

Mario Circuit might not be good because of the cars that come along the walls
Town and City could be a starter
Big Battlefield is too big for singles IMO
Kongo jungle is to small for squads, it is insane with eight players
Pilotwings is a bit weird, might not be legal

 

[Luco]

Anyone think we could incorporate smooth landing as the competitive standard? I think with some testing and research it could be possible.

I dislike Smooth Landing for a few reasons, most notably being that in essence there's really no point, that it makes some characters like Diddy Kong notably better than they already are and that it creates logistical issues (everyone has to get every custom move).

That's just my take on it though. I'd like it if it changed the meta-game to allow for greater versatility and character viability (which is the deal with custom moves); but at this point it feels rather arbitrary and un-needed for my tastes. :o

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

My list.

Starters:

Battlefield
Big Battlefield (Doubles + Squads)
FD
Lylat Cruise
Smashville

Counter Picks:
Mario Circuit
Delfino Plaza
Kongo Jungle (Doubles)
Temple (Squads)
Town and City
Pilotwings
Any Omega stages

Mario Circuit might not be good because of the cars that come along the walls
Town and City could be a starter
Big Battlefield is too big for singles IMO
Kongo jungle is to small for squads, it is insane with eight players
Pilotwings is a bit weird, might not be legal

Big battlefield for Doubles? Maybe?

 

[Lex__]

Can we ban less then 3 line posts in this topic, they are really not adding anything to the topic and is just making this topic go offtopic, onto the part of the stage list, I have updated my banlist below and have proposed a detailed explanation of why I feel they should be in the CP + Neutral, the point of my list is to create a base instead of a large list, which can then be added onto instead of removing stages. If you have any disagrements on the ban list I can go into detail about why I think they deserved to be banned.

WALK OFFS/MOVING STAGE
[collapse="Banlist"]
Mario Galaxy (walk offs)

Mushroom kingdom U (Moving and walkoffs and minigame thing)

Woolly world (walkoff's, circle camping)

Boxing ring (Stage hazard, walk off)

Wii fit studios (walk off)

Flatzone 2 (stage hazard walk off)

Flatzone X (Walk offs)

Onnet(walk offs)

Coliseum (Walk offs)

Port town aero (Walk offs and hazards)

Bridge of eldin (walkoffs, way to big and semi circle camping)

Pacland (moving stage)
[/collapse]
Mini game jank/Stage hazard
[collapse="Banlist"]

Mario circuit Brawl (same thing)

75m (Do I need to explain this, but atleast there isnt walk offs)

Gamer (minigame jank)

Pyrosphere(boss)

Norfair (lava things)

Wily castle(boss)

Gaur plain (boss)

[/collapse]
Stage is too big or circle camping
[collapse="Banlist"]
Great cave offensive (WAY to big)

palutena's temple (to big)

Garden of hope (to big)

Temple (circle camping way to big)

Luigi's mansion (cave of life)
[/collapse]
Banned but almost legal[collapse="Banned"]
Mario circuit - This one was a close choice to be legal but I found that it has too many glitches (People randomly dieing on get up from ledge) and people getting instakilled because of the top roof which has knockback. This combined with the changing platforms and stage hazard I found that it just should not be legal

Wrecking crew - This should not be legal in any way, its a **** fest, the bombs block projectiles, the barrels trap you when they land on you, the bombs explode.

Windy hill zone - This stage is way to big and the springs spike you, Maybe for doubles?

Orbital Gate Assault - Way to big, there's stage hazards sometimes, some transformations don't have a ledges, some transformations take way to long for them to change meaning if you dont have a double jump you will die.

Skyworld (the kid icarus one) - This is a weird stage, it has destructable platforms and cave of lifes everywhere.

Jungle Hijinxs - Allows for circle camping to the extreme, weird perspective which sometimes the barrels block visions, allows for easy punishes if you go through the barrel first. There is also the weird stage breaking which forces you to go to the back?

Big Battlefield - This stage is just too god damn big! It allows for circle camping.

Kalos Pokèmon league - This stage is the king of jank, changing styles some ok some bad, honestly I think we have enough good choices that we don't need something like this. There also is a mode in the steel mode which makes people made out of metal...

Wuhu Island - This stage was hard to ban also, but its abundance of water, its random stage changing and its stage hazards made me feel like it should be banned, have a look here for more detailed information. http://smashboards.com/threads/wuhu-island-stage-research.379991/

Pilot Wings - This is one rocking stage, its worse then lylat and I feel like its just too disruptive to gameplay. Yellow plane offers corneria camping (on the bottom thing), the stage has hazards when it goes under/through things (cliffs and bridge) These kill at mid %.


[/collapse]

Legal

[collapse="Base Stage List - Starters"]

Battlefield - One of the best stages ever made, offers platforms and a small stage, a real great opposite compare to smashville.

Town and city - The love child of smashville and battlefield, This stage offers it all, FD like stage when transforming, multitude of different platforms and more.
Smashville - A great starter, allows for a psuedo FD with platforms
[/Collapse]
[collapse="About the size of smashville and T&C"]
As for the size of smashville and town and city I found this

So I did some testing on Smashville versus Town and City size wise and here are the results.

Smashville is 60% the size of FD with roughly the same blast zones as FD.

Town and City is is 85% FD with blast zones slightly smaller than FD.

So Town and City's size is about 1.4x larger than Smashville, but with blast zones that kill about 8% earlier.

This is based on R.O.B. using moves to kill Mario and Rolling to Measure and falling and whatnot. The most precise with what I had available. Platforms were not included in measurements.

[/collapse]

[collapse="Base Stage List - Counterpick"]
Duck hunt - This is almost starter except for its shy guy like birds, the random platforms and bushes which block vision. A great counterpick offers small blast zones and a high ceiling.

Final Destination (One has to be decided to be the default one - Read comment below on my thoughts on it) - This stage has never been a very neutral stage, and I might be grinding some gears by putting this in counterpick but I feel like both Town and city (mid transform version) and Smashville offer similiar things in a starter ban list. It has no platforms and promotes camping with projectiles.
[/collapse]
The Leftovers
These are stages that could very well be legal depending on community's opinions of them, these are the stages which have some weird interaction or past set precedent set by another game. They also may need more testing because im only one man.

[collapse="The leftovers"]
Lylat Cruise - People either love or hate this stage with its small ledges and moving body if it was going to be it would be a counterpick.

Pokemon standium 2 - The effects are weaker in this game but still have some real jank effects it has great platforms and the stage transforms offer a unique style. If this was in it would be a CP similiar to PS1 in melee.

Kongo jungle 64 - This stage was banned in melee for camping in the barrel and circle camping around the stage, it also has a very large blastzone which will make killing even harder in smash 4.

Delfino Plaza - This has a hell of alot of water but people like this stage, it has a perfect neutral platform layout the only problem is the transitions.It was legal in brawl for a long time.

Castle siege - With no chain grabs the second transformation makes more sense as a stage. It was legal in brawl for a long time.

Halberd - No walkoffs (other then the start which quickly change) The stage hazards are not that bad, honestly should be a legal counterpick but im trying to create a base from which discussion can flourish, This is my choice for a third CP.

Skyloft (zelda one) - This is a stage that I feel really would be a good legal stage, the stage inbetween transformations are great, there are some semi walk offs but overall I think it would be a great CP and my choice for a fourth CP.

[/collapse]
I left mii-verse out because its not in the game yet.

As for omega stages it is more complicated then we thought, I propose we ban all grass FD's and lylat. It has also coming to my attention that the normal FD becomes blinding at one point (really white) I propose we choose one of the omegas which is like FD, I think OMEGA BF or platuna temple is the most neutral looking.

http://smashboards.com/threads/wii-u-omega-stage-differences.379365/

 

[Splice]

First of all I think 5 starters would be ideal, and it is NECESSARY to have 7 stages at least so you can have bans in a Bo5 (no bans in a bo5 is arguably the largest shortcoming of Melee ruleset)

Stages worth discussing that should be/could be legal (everything else = Banned)
Battlefield - Triplatform setup you know and love

Smashville - Not quite a replacement for FD, the platform is not static but it always exists and is easy to reach.

Final Destination - Could be a starter or a counterpick, due to most stages having high platforms, the few strings that do get interrupted by plats work on most stages anyway. The main difference no platforms causes now is no safe place to land/get around moves and projectiles. While the effect it has is strong, this is ok with 5 starters and 2 bans.

Kongo Jungle 64 - Going through the stage isn't a large negative. You cannot shark or plank and with the sweetspotting/recovery in this game it's not going to be the reason you kill yourself either. Circle camping does not appear effective since the middle platforms can be used to pressure and intercept. Great for platform tricks, interesting stage. The slants in the middle are not super invasive and mainly just disrupt projectiles.

Delfino Plaza - Lots of transformations, lots of water. Sharking and planking and metaknight are no longer a concern. I'm not of the camp that water is cause for a ban, since you can avoid it. But it does mean there are transformations where gimps and downward kills are not possible. There are also some walk-offs. If we are being lenient, this is a stage I'd love to see; imo it's the most interesting and versatile stage in Brawl. It provides so much and with so many characters with good recovery in Smash 4, it's more playable than ever.

Halberd - Again, sharking and planking do not matter. The two transformations are both fine. The lazer beam is manipulatable and allows for player vs. player situations rather than becoming a jank hazard. The canon ball is super dodgeable. The combo claw is the only hazard that warrants discussion in my opinion; it is also super dodgeable, but it is much faster and difficult to tell which player it is aiming. It would not matter too much but it also hits quite hard.

Lylat Cruise - This stage tilts insanely. Projectiles can travel nowhere, hitting the ground right in front of you because of the way it tilts, and some recoveries are hard to angle from the inside of the stage although it is better than Brawl. While it has no "hazards", the way the stage itself tilts randomly throughout the match is far more disruptive than anything on Halberd, even the combo claw because the tilting is far more persistent, whereas the combo claw would usually happen once or twice per match.

Town and City - Definitely legal; no hazards and no jank. The platforms are super high sometimes, making it act like FD at times. However as long as platforms exist, it cannot be considered an FD alternative because as I mentioned earlier platforms are not that effective for interrupting strings in this game and having a place to land on to wait and bait is what platforms really provide here. The heights of platforms are not at all consistant across stages, so I don't think Town and City need be singled out for having exceptionally high platforms at some points (the platforms are not static)

Duck Hunt - This is the weirdest stage that I've ever considered "potentially legal". Strange platforms make for weird setups and tricks (banana's behind the grass), the platforms at the top seem useful only for some intense camping. They'd be great for juggling but how do you get someone up there in the first place? You can also kill birds to traumatise Falco and King DDD so that they lose

Stages probably worth discussing but I think they would not benefit the ruleset
Skyloft - Looks a lot like Delfino but without water but more prominent walk-offs. I need to play more.

Pilot Wings - Terrible stage that some people like? (pls no sir)

Castle Siege (The transformations on this stage do not benefit the same traits of characters. Personally I've never understood the function of this stage as a counterpick in Brawl. The 2nd transformation is unplayable, the 3rd is bad FD but the 1st transformation is fantastic. If you wanted to trim fat I wouldn't include this, if you wanted more stages for more stages sake than this fits in with Delfino; I just think it's less useful within the ruleset than Delfino by a fair bit and a bit more volatile to transformations setting players up poorly)

 

[Tomo009]

I really like Skyloft, it has 2 walk off sections but they last a very short time, it also has a sort of circle campable section but same deal. The rest of the stage (which is a lot more transformations) has so many interesting configurations, there is nothing particularly disruptive, you can see all the transformations happen, they are all quite slow to come on. Some of the floating platform configurations in particular, I find really interesting.

Not a fan of lylat, although if we have at least 2 bans I guess it wont be too bad, it will just be an auto ban for a lot of characters lowering their options when banning stages. It just screws up a lot of recoveries and projectile characters' neutral game.

I had dismissed Kongo Jungle 64 but I hear what you say, so I want to test it more now, if run away isn't a problem it would be a very interesting stage.



What stages are you suggesting for the 5 neutral picks?

Battlefield, Town and City and Smashville are given, but what would be the other 2?

I would assume FD/Palutena's omega, but then I don't have a clue.

 

[Luco]

I'm all for Kongo Jungle 64 to be honest. The stage doesn't have that much wrong with it; and a higher ceiling just means a probably good CP for heavyweights.

I've always been for Delfino, I love the stage and think most of what got it banned in Brawl is now gone.

I'd be tempted to keep castle siege especially for its 1st and 3rd transformations which I think are both quite nice. Even the second transformation isn't all that bad considering walk-offs are less abusable/CGs aren't really a thing now.

 

[S.D]

I don't think walkoffs are as bad this generation, due to no CG mainly, though a few characters will benefit still.
Makes Delphino and Skyloft (my fave new stage) viable imo.

But seriously can we just ban rolling.

 

[DD_]

Wii Fit Room Lets make it happen!
#YearOfTheWalkoff

 

[Attila_]

Skyloft has one transformation which makes me want it banned; too much wall and camping from below.

5 starters would be nice:
FD
TAC
SV
BF
lylat

Duck hunt is too large for neutral, and contains some intrusive stuff. And edge guarding is really wonky cause you can't even see off the stage. Better for CP.

What do people think of PS2?

 

[Song_]

PS2 has a couple of transformations (Electric and wind) that can heavily disrupt the play, even the ice transformation can make the fighting difficult, don't think it should be a CP unless we are desperate.

 

[Luco]

I've always really liked PS2, though I don't see any reason why its legal status would change from Brawl (sadly, as it was banned), the transformations are probably a little too disruptive for competitive play, though if people were willing to give it a go i'd love to see it as a potential CP.

Duck hunt I think is a fine CP. The birds interfere with projectiles anyway.

 

[Lex__]

Skyloft has one transformation which makes me want it banned; too much wall and camping from below.

Which stage transformation is this? I also think 1 "bad" transformation is enough to ban a stage, specially when they are so short (less then 15 seconds). I dont think it will be possible to camp for any time on the transformations.

I was talking to people today on skype and they seem pretty happy with the idea of

Starter :

FD (platuna or BF)
T&C
SV
Skyloft
BF

Counter Pick:

Duck Hunt
Halberd

 

[Song_]

Which stage transformation is this? I also think 1 "bad" transformation is enough to ban a stage, specially when they are so short (less then 15 seconds). I dont think it will be possible to camp for any time on the transformations.

I was talking to people today on skype and they seem pretty happy with the idea of

Starter :

FD
T&C
SV
Skyloft
BF

Counter Pick:

Duck Hunt
Halberd

is there a reason why lylat isn't there?
also would omega stages be allowed? some are blocks while others are floating, could make for two more starters. maybe move skyloft to CP

 

[M]

Palutena's Temple Omega would be the optimal FD if only the blast zones on the side weren't so damn close to the stage...

My issue with the standard FD is the background itself which while looking ****ing gorgeous, can sometimes be way too bright and some moves/characters can become rather difficult to see when everything in this game is so damn shiny already.

 

[Lex__]

I agree M, the normal FD is so blinding, any source on the blast zones being smaller? The US is using Platunas temple or battle field as a replacement.

is there a reason why lylat isn't there?
also would omega stages be allowed? some are blocks while others are floating, could make for two more starters. maybe move skyloft to CP

The reason why Lylat is not there is because it causes problems with it moving and its terrible ledges, No one seems to like it at all. We also dont need more FD's its not a very balanced stage and it doesn't change enough to warrent a different ban.

The Omegas have alot of different then what we initially thought, and only one should be used. http://smashboards.com/threads/wii-u-omega-stage-differences.379365/

 

[Song_]

What's your take on custom stages?, Once the update is released it could open almost infinite stages. Or will we stay with the pre made stages

 

[Gatbitg]

There's no

What's your take on custom stages?, Once the update is released it could open almost infinite stages. Or will we stay with the pre made stages

there's no ****ing way any custom stages will be allowed that's a ******** idea

 

[Lex__]

There's no

there's no ****ing way any custom stages will be allowed that's a ******** idea

Why not, Im curious why other then the logistics of everyone having it (when the download site happens it will be easy) why couldnt this happen? It would allow for some stages to come back that would fit the meta.

 

[Gatbitg]

Why not, Im curious why other then the logistics of everyone having it (when the download site happens it will be easy) why couldnt this happen? It would allow for some stages to come back that would fit the meta.

It would just go on until every reigon in the world has a different set of stages, no one will be able to agree on anything with infinite boundaries

 

[Splice]

It would just go on until every reigon in the world has a different set of stages, no one will be able to agree on anything with infinite boundaries

Yeah I was involved in discussions for this kind of thing with Brawl, and this guy is totally right.
It's a matter of principles, but custom stages = can of worms.

 

[Song_]

Yeah I was involved in discussions for this kind of thing with Brawl, and this guy is totally right.
It's a matter of principles, but custom stages = can of worms.

Possibly we could designate one guy to make like 20 stages then do a poll and choose 2 or3

 

[Splice]

Possibly we could designate one guy to make like 20 stages then do a poll and choose 2 or3

But i don't like the guy we designated and I think we should choose 5.

 

[Shaya]

If a TO truly finds an imbalance in their stage list that may be improved by a replication of an older stage (or similar) and it isn't hefty logistics to transfer them, then maybe it could work =)

 

[Attila_]

Custom stages are unnecessary more than anything. If we inherited the 3DS stage list on the wiiU, it would be something to look into, but with the current amount of decent looking stages, it's something that we don't need to burden ourselves with.

Otherwise, having Skyloft as starter makes no sense at all.

I think it might be easier to ban Omega stages in favor of FD, as this makes things more consistent and reliable.

 

[S.D]

Lylat for starter if you want 5.
I don;t know where this sudden rhetoric about it being awful is coming from. It's not THAT bad and the most logical choice for starter stage. Plus you can just strike it yeah?

 

[Song_]

I think Attilas list would be the best if we want 5 starters, then have sky loft delphino and halberd as counter picks.

 

[Luco]

We just had it so if you pick FD you can go to any Omega based on personal preference, i'd be inclined to keep that rule because it adds variety without clogging things up. We did that at our most recent tournament and it was fine. (Also listening to Yoshi's Woolly World whilst playing a tournament match is so totally my thing <3 )

And just because I don't like Lylat shouldn't mean it's banned. As long as there's some people who benefit from those slopes/a lack of projectile camping I suppose, it's probably a fine CP just like in Brawl.

On the other hand if everyone hates lylat then there's no point keeping it legal because everyone will ban it. But that situation seems unlikely to me...?

 

[Lex__]

We just had it so if you pick FD you can go to any Omega based on personal preference, i'd be inclined to keep that rule because it adds variety without clogging things up. We did that at our most recent tournament and it was fine. (Also listening to Yoshi's Woolly World whilst playing a tournament match is so totally my thing <3 )

And just because I don't like Lylat shouldn't mean it's banned. As long as there's some people who benefit from those slopes/a lack of projectile camping I suppose, it's probably a fine CP just like in Brawl.

On the other hand if everyone hates lylat then there's no point keeping it legal because everyone will ban it. But that situation seems unlikely to me...?

The problem is there is a distinct advantage for playing on the different version for different characters, and its hard to decide who gets to choose the version of fd. E.G. If I was allowed to chose which version of fd I went on, and im versing a ness, I would choose the lylat version of FD which has a really bad ledge, while normal fd is good for ness (ridable wall) this changes he dynamics of the stage.

There is also the problem of "grass" stages which have half the sliding distance. I think it would be easier if only one was chosen and it was the closest to OG FD. (Palutena's or Battlefield).

Source : http://smashboards.com/threads/wii-u-omega-stage-differences.379365/

 

[Luco]

Sometimes that makes a difference, and usually if that's the case then you can scissor-paper-rock for it or just have loser pick.

 

[Attila_]

Kongo jungle is way better than any stages that transform.

And sky loft is worse than then all.

 

[DD_]

Kongo jungle is way better than any stages that transform.

And sky loft is worse than then all.

I'm just curious as to why you feel Sky loft is worse than Delphino. As far as I'm aware Sky loft has no water and less walk offs but for the tradeoff of one questionable transformation (which can always be camped anyway a la PK stadium transforms) and one stage hazard that is very negligible. Not arguing for or against skyloft here would just like some insight

 

[Luco]

Wait which stage hazard are you thinking? Because i've got one in my head that doesn't seem negligable, and that's that skyloft can intrude on the borders of the stage and kill anyone trying to get back on stage from that general area (at mid-high percents granted).

That said, I like the stage, so in the end for me it's no biggie lel.


... Actually I think that's how I feel about 80% of the stages in this game: "Probably banned but errr, it's a pretty stage, so sure hey why not?"

 

[Jamwa]

lylat should not be in any stage list ever

thanks for being convinced by my words

 

[Tomo009]

Wait which stage hazard are you thinking? Because i've got one in my head that doesn't seem negligable, and that's that skyloft can intrude on the borders of the stage and kill anyone trying to get back on stage from that general area (at mid-high percents granted).

That said, I like the stage, so in the end for me it's no biggie lel.


... Actually I think that's how I feel about 80% of the stages in this game: "Probably banned but errr, it's a pretty stage, so sure hey why not?"

Hmm how is it possible to die to it? I have seen it being a factor a couple of times but I thought it knocked you down and not very hard (a Jiggly at like 90% recovered before being anywhere near the actual stage portion). Is it just if you are far off the stage it can make it hard to get back up again?

I want to watch how the better players play on Kongo because every single game I've had on it has been horrible.

 

[Luco]

I was just having some games with a friend before, I knocked him up into it at about 90% (he was yoshi), he then gets hit by the stage, launched further up, gets hit by the stage again, gets launched even further, gets hit by the stage a third time and dies, now at around 120/130%, all in rapid succession. I think the replays will be going up on youtube, so if that one is a part of them then I can show you.