Meta Australian Smash 4 General Ruleset Discussion

[Luco]

The hell? I literally didn't have an issue with nades on lylat!

Screw you guys! XD

 

[Jamwa]

Well if you didn't say why I'm personally against them, then I'll cover you

The game having gimmick visual interferences (inconsistent between stages/etc) is very uncompetitive and detrimental to competitive play. We're skill testing, and I don't consider abusing the blind or nullifying counter play for a character as skills; especially when the alternatives are 100% fine.
Visual element changes are there for aesthetics, not to alter game play. If those aesthetics are actually altering game play, then it's detrimental.

well you cant see rosalina's dodges so she should be banned
ur so got rn ey
100% got
absolutely best got that no1 could evr do

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I definitely liked lylat in Brawl because no one could see my nades.

Just sayin'

It DID come with a "IM THROWING A GRENADE AT YOU" animation though. :3

 

[Lex__]

well you cant see rosalina's dodges so she should be banned
ur so got rn ey
100% got
absolutely best got that no1 could evr do

m8 nintento got u day 1.

(click the portrait)

 

[Attila_]

It DID come with a "IM THROWING A GRENADE AT YOU" animation though. :3

In between striping, shield deflections and throwing while off stage, they can be pretty tricky to keep track of If you can't see them.

Snake's dsmash is also completely invisible in the lylat platforms too.

 

[Splice]

It DID come with a "IM THROWING A GRENADE AT YOU" animation though. :3

That doesn't invalidate his point whatsoever

 

[Shaya]

C4 and Dsmash are things you're meant to remember where they are / be conscious.
I came to also have a similar perception of grenades, at least grenade drops make a sound.
I just felt that these were inherently apart of the character.

Cyan G&W though. *shudder*

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

C4 and Dsmash are things you're meant to remember where they are / be conscious.
I came to also have a similar perception of grenades, at least grenade drops make a sound.
I just felt that these were inherently apart of the character.

Cyan G&W though. *shudder*

Cyan G&W?
What was the problem with him? Just don't like how he looks?

 

[Star ☆]

Cyan G&W?
What was the problem with him? Just don't like how he looks?

On certain stages you can't see him against the backdrop.

 

[Splice]

Hi I think the opponent should be banned if I shadow claw them because they become difficult to see when they turn purple.

This is really unfair on me as I am trying to combo and get follow ups but I have no idea where they are. Please remove Battlefield and FD or ban my opponents from getting hit by Shadow Claw. Thankyou.

 

[Shaya]

Tell me the part where G&W having a selectable aesthetic option to be near-invisible on certain stages is remotely comparable to default effects available.

I personally cannot see Diddy Kong bananas on Delfino Plaza, I'd be pretty happy if everyone had hacked models to have red bananas (like some people did), but I just dealt with it fully knowing no one truly knew my weakness in that regard other than Tibs and he never cp'd it against me again. Then the stage got banned anyway, lol. Would I call for Diddy to be banned on Delfino? hell no.

Remember the colour coding rules for doubles?

We're fortunate this game to have G&W with thick, contrasting colour borders to highlight him in such scenarios with all his skins and having the same effect available to all characters playing in teams so as to not be the same issue all over again. Except now it exists in some cases on some completely indifferent except visually Final Destinations, why do we need them? We do not.

 

[Splice]

ban game and watch

 

[Lex__]

Im colour blind, can we ban red/green fox match ups in melee?

Edit : seriously tho, doubles in smash 4 is hard for me.

 

[DD_]

I'm short sighted can't see TV guess we better just ban Smash 4 guys.

 

[Luco]

Im colour blind, can we ban red/green fox match ups in melee?

Edit : seriously tho, doubles in smash 4 is hard for me.

I actually seem to recall this used to be a thing in the old rules. Like if it was difficult for peeps to distinguish then they could request the other team or themselves to go blue instead or something?

 

[Jamwa]

thanks for playing everyone!
this is all going on tumblr to show how ableist the smash community is

edit: you're all ****lords

 

[PrettyCoolGuy]

I have sore hands can i get special dispensation to have someone else play for me?

 

[Star ☆]

I know Smash 64 has widespread tournament rules prohibiting the use of Dark Donkey Kong, Dark Samus and Dark Falcon on Congo Jungle because on some TVs they're almost impossible to see, even more than the extent of cyan Gdubs. Just a fun fact.

 

[Shaya]

Don't worry, they're exercising their right to be ignorant.

 

[Luco]

With a little more evidence available, I think it's time we brought up the Pika + G&W elephant in the room.

This team has been doing stupid, ridiculous stuff on an unprecedented level for some time now. They're on a level which makes it so doubles no longer becomes about teamwork and skill... at all. They appear to be breaking the meta with very little counter-strategy. This is a very recent set which literally goes for 3 minutes, when Nairo and NAKAT decide to stop playing seriously and go characters they can't even play.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIuNHdPUpMw&list=UU5WNBHwgluAwWJE5QV-5_TA

This is an issue Shaya has stickied on the smash 4 competitive board as well with the intent for an investigation into their impact on the meta. I think we should be discussing this issue at the same time because if matches like ^ that are anything to go by, we really need to figure out what to do with this team and possibly G&W in doubles in general if it proves to be an issue with other members of the cast.

Discuss.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

With a little more evidence available, I think it's time we brought up the Pika + G&W elephant in the room.

This team has been doing stupid, ridiculous stuff on an unprecedented level for some time now. They're on a level which makes it so doubles no longer becomes about teamwork and skill... at all. They appear to be breaking the meta with very little counter-strategy. This is a very recent set which literally goes for 3 minutes, when Nairo and NAKAT decide to stop playing seriously and go characters they can't even play.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIuNHdPUpMw&list=UU5WNBHwgluAwWJE5QV-5_TA

This is an issue Shaya has stickied on the smash 4 competitive board as well with the intent for an investigation into their impact on the meta. I think we should be discussing this issue at the same time because if matches like ^ that are anything to go by, we really need to figure out what to do with this team and possibly G&W in doubles in general if it proves to be an issue with other members of the cast.

Discuss.

Its brain dead to say the least.
I remember that thing in brawl with G&W. It was sooo annoying. This is just ********.

I think we should at ban them for a while and see if we can develop a counter for this team. Its almost like brawl MK brain dead. Almost.
Maybe a solid double Villager team can take them out?

Also Collusion confirmed

 

[Shaya]

should be legal until attila and tibs play against it in tournament a few times first.

But I think they already banned it, and I think in a round about way, so has most people (at least in their souls).

 

[Venks]

With a little more evidence available, I think it's time we brought up the Pika + G&W elephant in the room.

This team has been doing stupid, ridiculous stuff on an unprecedented level for some time now. They're on a level which makes it so doubles no longer becomes about teamwork and skill... at all. They appear to be breaking the meta with very little counter-strategy. This is a very recent set which literally goes for 3 minutes, when Nairo and NAKAT decide to stop playing seriously and go characters they can't even play.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIuNHdPUpMw&list=UU5WNBHwgluAwWJE5QV-5_TA

This is an issue Shaya has stickied on the smash 4 competitive board as well with the intent for an investigation into their impact on the meta. I think we should be discussing this issue at the same time because if matches like ^ that are anything to go by, we really need to figure out what to do with this team and possibly G&W in doubles in general if it proves to be an issue with other members of the cast.

Discuss.

should be legal until attila and tibs play against it in tournament a few times first.

But I think they already banned it, and I think in a round about way, so has most people (at least in their souls).

2v2 discussion? Oh yeah!

It seems to be completely and utterly broken. I've noticed a few tournaments in California have already banned the pairing. Though either Nakat or Nairo does play Little Mac, can't remember which one. If you watch the whole tournament you'll see Little Mac get pulled out a few times.

Anyways, I'm a conservative fighter. I believe banning is the absolute last thing we should turn to. The GW&Pika combo looks utterly broken, but I personally think it's too early to just label that perception as fact. I would like to play against the duo in a few tournaments before seeing it prematurely excluded. I've beaten the team before in some casual matches, I'd like to see if I can continue to do so against more experienced players.

I'm curious if anyone has tried shielding the attack. Sure it does break your shield, but that's way better than being KO'd. Especially since your team mate can jab you out of it.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

2v2 discussion? Oh yeah!

It seems to be completely and utterly broken. I've noticed a few tournaments in California have already banned the pairing. Though either Nakat or Nairo does play Little Mac, can't remember which one. If you watch the whole tournament you'll see Little Mac get pulled out a few times.

Anyways, I'm a conservative fighter. I believe banning is the absolute last thing we should turn to. The GW&Pika combo looks utterly broken, but I personally think it's too early to just label that perception as fact. I would like to play against the duo in a few tournaments before seeing it prematurely excluded. I've beaten the team before in some casual matches, I'd like to see if I can continue to do so against more experienced players.

I'm curious if anyone has tried shielding the attack. Sure it does break your shield, but that's way better than being KO'd. Especially since your team mate can jab you out of it.

And then they can just refill bucket with thunder again and KO you anyway

 

[Venks]

And then they can just refill bucket with thunder again and KO you anyway

Well yeah. If your team mate is standing there and doing nothing. I would hope that while you were fighting/spacing with G&W, your partner was fighting Pikachu. They should be able to react. If Pikachu and G&W reposition themselves to fill the bucket and STILL have time to run over and KO you then your partner wasn't doing anything useful.

I'm not saying this is easy. Team Bucket has to put in far less effort to pull out a win. But that's pretty common in fighting games. Some strategies are just much easier to win with than others.

 

[Luco]

2v2 discussion? Oh yeah!

It seems to be completely and utterly broken. I've noticed a few tournaments in California have already banned the pairing. Though either Nakat or Nairo does play Little Mac, can't remember which one. If you watch the whole tournament you'll see Little Mac get pulled out a few times.

Anyways, I'm a conservative fighter. I believe banning is the absolute last thing we should turn to. The GW&Pika combo looks utterly broken, but I personally think it's too early to just label that perception as fact. I would like to play against the duo in a few tournaments before seeing it prematurely excluded. I've beaten the team before in some casual matches, I'd like to see if I can continue to do so against more experienced players.

I'm curious if anyone has tried shielding the attack. Sure it does break your shield, but that's way better than being KO'd. Especially since your team mate can jab you out of it.

I'm willing to give it a shot for these and the aforementioned reasons. I agree that banning is not something we should do liberally; so yes, info on this is pretty good before we totally take it out. I'm just speaking on my instincts here in that I suspect it really will end up being labelled as totally broken. =P

 

[Shaya]

The problem with shield break animations is that you're completely invincible until you touch the ground, that's about a second and a half I'm pretty sure.
The other problem is that moves in this game attracting hit lag (i.e. hitting something) extends hitboxes much further than in previous smashes.
It's about a 1/3rd FD length move.

So while you're waiting the mandatory time to save your team mate, another buckets been filled.

 

[Splice]

With a little more evidence available, I think it's time we brought up the Pika + G&W elephant in the room.

This team has been doing stupid, ridiculous stuff on an unprecedented level for some time now. They're on a level which makes it so doubles no longer becomes about teamwork and skill... at all. They appear to be breaking the meta with very little counter-strategy. This is a very recent set which literally goes for 3 minutes, when Nairo and NAKAT decide to stop playing seriously and go characters they can't even play.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIuNHdPUpMw&list=UU5WNBHwgluAwWJE5QV-5_TA
.

Where's the set where they played their mains?
Here's a set from the same playlist with the same GnW+Pika team and they lost
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suD3ln_E_0g&list=UU5WNBHwgluAwWJE5QV-5_TA&index=7

I want to watch a match where GnW+Pika beat a team that is not GnW+Pika to see what it looks like

I saw Nairo and NKAT play against a different team in game 1 they dominated with their mains and in game 2 they nearly lost with the GnW+Pika team. I want to see a team actually dominate with this strat?

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Well yeah. If your team mate is standing there and doing nothing. I would hope that while you were fighting/spacing with G&W, your partner was fighting Pikachu. They should be able to react. If Pikachu and G&W reposition themselves to fill the bucket and STILL have time to run over and KO you then your partner wasn't doing anything useful.

I'm not saying this is easy. Team Bucket has to put in far less effort to pull out a win. But that's pretty common in fighting games. Some strategies are just much easier to win with than others.

Unless they just happened to be KOd as well
(btw it happened to me in 2v2 for glory...... needless to say, my teammate was VERY salty....)

 

[Luco]

Where's the set where they played their mains?
Here's a set from the same playlist with the same GnW+Pika team and they lost
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suD3ln_E_0g&list=UU5WNBHwgluAwWJE5QV-5_TA&index=7

I want to watch a match where GnW+Pika beat a team that is not GnW+Pika to see what it looks like

I saw Nairo and NKAT play against a different team in game 1 they dominated with their mains and in game 2 they nearly lost with the GnW+Pika team. I want to see a team actually dominate with this strat?

Ironically the reason they lost was because they weren't playing stupid enough, I reckon haha. Yes they were under a lot of pressure, though.

Battlefield looks like it is the best counter for this strat but if it gets banned then I don't think you can keep it away forever.

But i'm surprised you're not having doubts about this as well Splice. It's a team that basically gets the KO punch every couple of seconds unless they are under intense pressure the whole match. Doesn't that seem broken to you? Just because a team may occasionally lose with them, I don't think that makes them less meta breaking.

Here's another one. Here, even with the other team having some very aggro strategies, they still can't really contest it....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNSRpRIQWys&list=UU5WNBHwgluAwWJE5QV-5_TA

I will say, though, that it's fair to want to test it out here before the ban is considered.

 

[Attila_]

Case in point is that Pika/GW is not unbeatable, but it is incredibly stupid.

Is this the kind of thing we want to have in our competitive meta?

 

[Splice]

Ironically the reason they lost was because they weren't playing stupid enough, I reckon haha. Yes they were under a lot of pressure, though.

Battlefield looks like it is the best counter for this strat but if it gets banned then I don't think you can keep it away forever.

But i'm surprised you're not having doubts about this as well Splice. It's a team that basically gets the KO punch every couple of seconds unless they are under intense pressure the whole match. Doesn't that seem broken to you? Just because a team may occasionally lose with them, I don't think that makes them less meta breaking.

Here's another one. Here, even with the other team having some very aggro strategies, they still can't really contest it....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNSRpRIQWys&list=UU5WNBHwgluAwWJE5QV-5_TA

I will say, though, that it's fair to want to test it out here before the ban is considered.

I just think that the youtube links provided so far are cheap and don't prove anything and are a really crap impact statement to try and play off the GnW+Pika team as more overpowered than it actually is by not providing wholesome information.

It's clearly a viable strat, because if the opponent slips up once it can be a very big cost. It doesn't seem broken to me if they aren't actually winning any tournaments, so I'm asking you to provide this info. This doesn't mean it's not the "best strat", but if people aren't winning tournaments just by playing GnW+Pika then I'm not sure you can say it's broken, especially when counters to this are unoptimized. I think your points on the issue are bias.

As Attila said it's more of a matter of "do we want this?". I think it can be compared to Wobbling in the sense of if you are a mid tier player, you're probably always going to lose to other mid tier players who are playing GnW+Pika every time (just like a mid tier spacie will almost always lose to a mid tier Ice Climber who has mastered Wobbling). Unless GnW and Pika are 1v1 gods in their own right, as the skill level gets higher players will be better at stopping this kind of thing from happening, but it could still likely pull jank wins (for the record, you can pull a jank win in any match) and will probably annihilate lesser skilled players.
In terms of actual 'brokeness' and the proliferation of my underground dungeon of jars full of tears, I don't think it needs to be banned

It would probably be the most played doubles team because it looks fun, idk if this is a negative or not in the short term but it probably does not develop a well rounded meta.

 

[Jamwa]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vhtpldvd-_M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vhtpldvd-_M

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vhtpldvd-_M

LOL!
Even aMSa is Pissed! XD

 

[Shaya]

You know things are bad when all these game and watch players don't even know bucket stacks remain after stocks.

 

[Star ☆]

The ruleset we did at today's meet was pretty simple. Same as the netplay group one, I like it a lot.

 

[Gords]

I thought net play don't use customs since they are forced blind.
We used customs today.

 

[DD_]

I thought net play don't use customs since they are forced blind.
We used customs today.

Star Confirmed for Netplay Cheat

 

[Star ☆]

Oh yeah, aside from that. I forgot sorry.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

So.... thoughts on this being a possible counter pick?