Meta Australian Smash 4 General Ruleset Discussion

[Lex__]

Zzz Zzz

@ Venks Please don't quote me if you're going to read what I wrote. It's incredibly frustrating.

Here, I'll summarize the main points.

1. The stock lead is broken. The player who takes the first stock should win.
2. In which case, extra stocks don't equate to added consistency. Instead extra matches add consistency and allow the better player A MUCH greater opportunity to win. Even if we ran Bo7s or something.
3. Using your disadvantage to learn/study your opponent is a misnomer. When you have the stock lead, you should be playing differently. So that playstyle won't apply to the next match, unless you find yourself in the same (losing) situation
4. I think 2 stock is more user friendly, and should be maintained at this point. However, I expect this to change as players get better/safer

There you go.

Can we get some sources on some of these claims? I have seen comebacks in smash alot and I feel like my personal experiences are different from yours.

Edit: Im done from this thread, we are getting no where and I just feel like we are arguing for no reason.

 

[Jamwa]

Edit: Im done from this thread, we are getting no where and I just feel like we are arguing for no reason.

yes

 

[Gords]

Can we get some sources on some of these claims? I have seen comebacks in smash alot and I feel like my personal experiences are different from yours.

do you favour melee or brawl?
melee has a lot of comebacks due to the rewards that can be gained for being aggressive or the value one can get off hit. Brawl didnt have these types of comebacks since landing hit held far less value and aggression had such a low risk/low reward ratio to the point it probably got you further behind.

 

[Shaya]

I think comebacks in this game are harder due to rage.
But is 1 stock the solution? Eh.
I don't like the idea that the time it'll take to set up a match inbetween matches could actually be longer than the match itself.
1 stock with character locks for X matches would probably be the fairest scenario imo, but we like our counterpicking systems, and they don't really work together well when we suddenly are including custom movesets and the likes to game play.

 

[dean.]

agree that rage makes coming back very hard. as well as the very rude nerf to swallowcide
rage system makes getting two stocked more likely than coming back.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Can we get some sources on some of these claims? I have seen comebacks in smash alot and I feel like my personal experiences are different from yours.

Edit: Im done from this thread, we are getting no where and I just feel like we are arguing for no reason.

Hi all,

Just wanted to generate some healthy conversation, but I an official ruleset committee.

The biggest down fall of the Brawl era was the inability of the community to form a proper ruleset for a number of years; I'd like this done asap.

So then, opinions please. Number of Stocks? Timer? Which stages? Omega only? Others too?

Express it here or forever hold your peace.



Straight from the OP... and from Attila as well

 

[Gords]

a rushed ruleset could potentially be worse than not having a consistent ruleset for several years, we dont need to have this ruleset finalised before the WiiU launch. 6 months (after WiiU) is reasonable and now where near the time it took for brawl.

does rage effect damage and knockback or just damage or just knockback?
if knockback is increased it should make it harder for low percent chains to work right.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

a rushed ruleset could potentially be worse than not having a consistent ruleset for several years, we dont need to have this ruleset finalised before the WiiU launch. 6 months (after WiiU) is reasonable and now where the time it took for brawl.

does rage effect damage and knockback or just damage or just knockback?
if knockback is increased it should make it harder for low percent chains to work right.

Just knockback, not damage.
Also yeah, it probably would make it harder for combos to work

 

[Gords]

this game appears that its easy to string moves together at the start of a game when your both at low percents, but if knockback is increased when your at higher percents then rage should make it harder for your opponent to rack up quick damage on your 2nd stock, this is counter balanced by the fact you have to raise their percent higher to kill them compared to the percent your first stock was taken at.

hmm idk needs some testing but i cant see how rage plays a big role in the stock advantage, minor role maybe

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

this game appears that its easy to string moves together at the start of a game when your both at low percents, but if knockback is increased when your at higher percents then rage should make it harder for your opponent to rack up quick damage on your 2nd stock, this is counter balanced by the fact you have to raise their percent higher to kill them compared to the percent your first stock was taken at.

hmm idk needs some testing but i cant see how rage plays a big role in the stock advantage, minor role maybe

You should probably check around the Rage effect thread here:
http://smashboards.com/threads/new-mechanic-the-rage-effect.368987/

Maybe you'll find something there.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

you can still combo easily at low percents because the rage buff gives you more hitstun lol

 

[Gords]

yeah i was just reading through some of that, the reddit post quoted in the OP is pretty much what i was saying.
thinking about it more, i dont like the rage effect.
a lot worse than the move to VI instead of DI

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

yeah i was just reading through some of that, the reddit post quoted in the OP is pretty much what i was saying.
thinking about it more, i dont like the rage effect.
a lot worse than the move to VI instead of DI

Why and how so?
Just curious.

 

[Venks]

Since we're pretty much in agreement on 2-stock and custom moves [for now], despite differing opinions, I guess we should move on from there. I'd like to bring up Omega Stages.

Personally I think it's a complete waste to just ban every Omega stage. The stages are all incredibly similar, but still different enough to give slight advantages to certain characters.
Say my opponent bans Battlefield and I choose Final Destination. Instead of playing normal FD I choose Yoshi Island's FD form. It's very similar to the normal Final Destination, but the sides allow for much easier wall jumps.

And of course if my opponent doesn't want me playing on any Omega Stage they just ban Final Destination. Then I'd be stuck to Battlefield or normal Yoshi's Island.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Since we're pretty much in agreement on 2-stock and custom moves [for now], despite differing opinions, I guess we should move on from there. I'd like to bring up Omega Stages.

Personally I think it's a complete waste to just ban every Omega stage. The stages are all incredibly similar, but still different enough to give slight advantages to certain characters.
Say my opponent bans Battlefield and I choose Final Destination. Instead of playing normal FD I choose Yoshi Island's FD form. It's very similar to the normal Final Destination, but the sides allow for much easier wall jumps.

And of course if my opponent doesn't want me playing on any Omega Stage they just ban Final Destination. Then I'd be stuck to Battlefield or normal Yoshi's Island.

Oh boy.
Omega Stages huh?

I'd say we could have a few exceptions here and there. Like what you pointed out about the wall jumps, or even possibly an Omega Stage where it is easier to stage spike people.

I dunno tbh

 

[Gords]

@ CyberHyperPhoenix
on second thoughts im not exactly sure. I need to actually test something first then i will get back to you

Regarding Omega stages.
TL;DR version
For Game 1: starter FD is either default FD or Omega Ferox
For Counter-picking FD:
A ban of FD means banning FD and all omega stages
picking FD means a choice of either default FD or any omega stage
(with the exception of balloon fight, pictochat 2 and pac-maze since greninja's shadow)

all omega stages are identical in length and blast zones
there are effectively 3 categories of FD
floating - lipped edged platform that allows players to traverse underneath eg. omega battlefield
Pillar - walls from the stage edge to the bottom blast zone eg. boxing ring
Omega ferox - lipped edges but a solid wall underneath which prevents characters traversing underneath it (think PS). Omega ferox is the only one of this kind

Since the 3 types are extremely similar most of the time you will be selecting the stage for its primary feature (flat stage no platforms) but different enough that a preferred type may be asked for. So in this case even if the opponent bans a type you just go to another type for effectively the same stage. this doesnt really work out since it basically means for matches against characters that prefer FD style stages (eg lil mac) you effectively have no bans against them.

to get around this I propose the following:
A ban of FD means banning FD and all omega stages
similarly if a player wants to choose FD:
they can choose default FD or any omega stage (with some exception mentioned below)

this works well within a counter picking scenario for games 2 and on.
But Game 1 its a bit different, stages are struck.
lets say the starter stages are struck to FD. who do we give the choice of type to.
I dont like the idea of both players selecting the one they want and letting the game choose as this adds luck into the game and wont be possible on WiiU anyway.
therefore I suggest that if Game 1 is struck to FD the match be played on default FD.
However default FD is considered floating so an argument could be placed for using Omega ferox in this case instead of default FD.
Omega ferox is like the middle ground between floating and pillar, still offering the benefits of a lipped edge but also providing a wall (albiet making things slightly harder to pull off wall shenanigans.)

Note: balloon fight, pictochat 2 and pac-maze should be banned completely.
all have completely black backgrounds/platforms which dont allow you to see greninja's shadow when he uses shadow sneak.

Also I dont believe battle and big battlefield should operate the same as Omega stages in the WiiU version
more platforms and a larger stage offers a different enough fighting environment to warrent them being completely indervidual stages imo

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

@ CyberHyperPhoenix
on second thoughts im not exactly sure. I need to actually test something first then i will get back to you

Regarding Omega stages.
TL;DR version
For Game 1: starter FD is either default FD or Omega Ferox
For Counter-picking FD:
A ban of FD means banning FD and all omega stages
picking FD means a choice of either default FD or any omega stage
(with the exception of balloon fight, pictochat 2 and pac-maze since greninja's shadow)

all omega stages are identical in length and blast zones
there are effectively 3 categories of FD
floating - lipped edged platform that allows players to traverse underneath eg. omega battlefield
Pillar - walls from the stage edge to the bottom blast zone eg. boxing ring
Omega ferox - lipped edges but a solid wall underneath which prevents characters traversing underneath it (think PS). Omega ferox is the only one of this kind

Since the 3 types are extremely similar most of the time you will be selecting the stage for its primary feature (flat stage no platforms) but different enough that a preferred type may be asked for. So in this case even if the opponent bans a type you just go to another type for effectively the same stage. this doesnt really work out since it basically means for matches against characters that prefer FD style stages (eg lil mac) you effectively have no bans against them.

to get around this I propose the following:
A ban of FD means banning FD and all omega stages
similarly if a player wants to choose FD:
they can choose default FD or any omega stage (with some exception mentioned below)

this works well within a counter picking scenario for games 2 and on.
But Game 1 its a bit different, stages are struck.
lets say the starter stages are struck to FD. who do we give the choice of type to.
I dont like the idea of both players selecting the one they want and letting the game choose as this adds luck into the game and wont be possible on WiiU anyway.
therefore I suggest that if Game 1 is struck to FD the match be played on default FD.
However default FD is considered floating so an argument could be placed for using Omega ferox in this case instead of default FD.
Omega ferox is like the middle ground between floating and pillar, still offering the benefits of a lipped edge but also providing a wall (albiet making things slightly harder to pull off wall shenanigans.)

Note: balloon fight, pictochat 2 and pac-maze should be banned completely.
all have completely black backgrounds/platforms which dont allow you to see greninja's shadow when he uses shadow sneak.

Also I dont believe battle and big battlefield should operate the same as Omega stages in the WiiU version
more platforms and a larger stage offers a different enough fighting environment to warrent them being completely indervidual stages imo

@ Gords Alright then, no problem

I agree with the whole "Banning FD = Omega Stages as well" thing. We have enough stages to compensate anyway.
Not sure what to think about the whole "Shadow sneak = banning of pictochat 2, pac-maze and balloon fight" thing. Maybe just ban them for the Greninja MU?


Nah, that sound stupid

 

[Gords]

well if players are not playing greninja and want to play that on those stages they could likely use the gentlemans rule to play on it. but i would put the official ruling as just ban them completely. creates less confusion that way and lets be honest, they aren't the fav omega stages anyway.

also fun fact, there are more pillar FDs (20) than floating FDs (13),
with most of the good music seems to be on pillars
gerudo valley, boxing ring, wiley's castle
but hay thats just my tastes

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

well if players are not playing greninja and want to play that on those stages they could likely use the gentlemans rule to play on it. but i would put the official ruling as just ban them completely. creates less confusion that way and lets be honest, they aren't the fav omega stages anyway.

also fun fact, there are more pillar FDs (20) than floating FDs (13),
with most of the good music seems to be on pillars
gerudo valley, boxing ring, wiley's castle
but hay thats just my tastes

Nice. I suppose its good since we get a variety of stages and music as well

 

[Luco]

Actually I love the balloon fight stage, it has awesome music and just looks cool generally

I agree and have agreed with this for some time. A ban on a single FD is a ban on them all and with the exception of game 1, an FD pick can be any FD depending on player choice (if there's a disagreement, scissor-paper-rock easily fixes it) and the Ballon Fight/Pac-maze/Pictochat stages can be gentleman's ruled for those of us who are cool who enoy em. ^_^

 

[dean.]

don't like Ω balloon fight at all. mostly because you can't see through the water coming up from the bottom blastzone. /personalpreference

 

[Luco]

don't like Ω balloon fight at all. mostly because you can't see through the water coming up from the bottom blastzone. /personalpreference

Yeah, sometimes that bugs me too. I'm getting used to the muscle memory on Ness' double PKT though so it's all good I swear. =P

 

[Lex__]

I think default FD for starter then any FD for counterpick is good. (other then the jank ones of course)

 

[Jamwa]

as there seems to be 2 archetypes for Ω stages, banning should encompass stages with walls and then stages without (unless there's other differences i dont know about). the rest is then just choosing art preference right?

also since certain art can effect visuals (i.e. greninja shadow) this should not influence whether stages are banned. lylat was never banned because "I couldn't see snakes grenades". it's too subjective a matter. personally i hate every melee stage since it ****ing shakes the whole screen but w/e idiot camera man i c how it is and i deal

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

as there seems to be 2 archetypes for Ω stages, i banning should encompass stages with walls and then stages without (unless there's other differences i dont know about). the rest is then just choosing art preference right?

Yeah, pretty much.
From what I understand anyway. Also Music preference.

 

[Xyro77]

Xyro bans everything; it's good for players to see whether they prefer it that way though.
Anyway, we're all experimenting for now... bit early to play the "America does it so we do it" card

Actually I dont. Please stop spreading missinformation.

 

[Luco]

You'll actually notice that all of the stages you can't see Greninja's shaodw on are pillar FD variants. This means if you wanted to do scissor-paper-rock to determine what you wanted to play, that could be viable.

That said, I don't think Snake's grenades on lylat are comparable to Greninja here. Snake's grenades could still be seen on Lylat pretty easily imo, but physically not being able to know Greninja is pulling this off (as in, there is actually no way to find this out bar looking at the other player's controller) feels a little much. That's why I think these stages should just be gentleman's rules overall or if not, then part of the banning and picking process which btw just makes everything more complicated.

 

[Venks]

You'll actually notice that all of the stages you can't see Greninja's shaodw on are pillar FD variants. This means if you wanted to do scissor-paper-rock to determine what you wanted to play, that could be viable.

That said, I don't think Snake's grenades on lylat are comparable to Greninja here. Snake's grenades could still be seen on Lylat pretty easily imo, but physically not being able to know Greninja is pulling this off (as in, there is actually no way to find this out bar looking at the other player's controller) feels a little much. That's why I think these stages should just be gentleman's rules overall or if not, then part of the banning and picking process which btw just makes everything more complicated.

Pfft. I have trouble seeing Snake's grenades on Final Destination. If the camera is zoomed out they're just too tiny and the background is so busy. I absolutely hate playing against Snake in 2v2s specifically because of this.

 

[Gords]

as there seems to be 2 archetypes for Ω stages, banning should encompass stages with walls and then stages without (unless there's other differences i dont know about). the rest is then just choosing art preference right?

if you include Omega ferox there are effectively 3 types. and my reason for not having them separated in the selection process is as I mentioned earlier

Since the 3 types are extremely similar most of the time you will be selecting the stage for its primary feature (flat stage no platforms) but different enough that a preferred type may be asked for. So in this case even if the opponent bans a type you just go to another type for effectively the same stage. this doesnt really work out since it basically means for matches against characters that prefer FD style stages (eg lil mac) you effectively have no bans against them.

also since certain art can effect visuals (i.e. greninja shadow) this should not influence whether stages are banned. lylat was never banned because "I couldn't see snakes grenades". it's too subjective a matter. personally i hate every melee stage since it ****ing shakes the whole screen but w/e idiot camera man i c how it is and i deal

Snakes grenades/sticky mine were visible just on lylat they were difficult to see during regular gameplay, The shadow is literary impossible to see at all on Pictochat 2, and on Ballon fight you can only see it by pausing the game and rotating the camera up (i expect pac-maze to be the same as Balloon fight but cant check it since i havent unocked that stage yet)

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

I personally never had a problem with seeing Snake's grenades

 

[Jamwa]

I personally never had a problem with seeing Snake's grenades

I have trouble seeing Snake's grenades on Final Destination

Haha, i've never had a problem with this.

subjective

This thread is now a "wow i [do]/[don't] have a problem with seeing snakes grenades".
The sentence in quotes is the only format accepted otherwise you will be banned from smashboards. this is to help with compiling the results in a spreadsheet so that we can inform the president of this important news
please everyone who is in Aus please make a post in this thread about how you can or cant see snakes grenades

The shadow is literary impossible to see at all

probably the purpose of the move but that's just me ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Attila_]

An earlier point about making things noob friendly... Perhaps for now we should either:

1. Just use normal FD
2. Allow all Omegas

It simplifies things pretty drastically.

 

[Splice]

An earlier point about making things noob friendly... Perhaps for now we should either:

1. Just use normal FD
2. Allow all Omegas

It simplifies things pretty drastically.

There's still too many characters; it'd be way easier to understand the game if only Fox was legal.

 

[Venks]

Personally I find Greninja's Shadow Sneak to be a pretty lackluster move. It deals about 10% normally and 12% from behind. The move doesn't KO till around 130~140(behind 120~130)%. It's something Greninja has to commit to and it is completely unsafe on block. The move is really easy to see coming unless you're distracted. When Greninja uses Shadow Sneak he can not dash, dodge, shield, or use any other attacks. The only things Greninja can do while Shadow Sneaking is walk, crawl, jump, and taunt.

Personally I think stages that make the shadow unable to be seen is perfect for more interesting gameplay. This in no way makes Greninja overpowered as he is still really limited in actions and the move itself is average in terms of power. On these stages it actually allows Greninja to play mind games with his opponent. Is Greninja walking because he's using Shadow Sneak? Or is Greninja actually free to go into shield or throw out a tilt attack?

Yes these stages give Greninja an advantage he doesn't normally have, but I feel that's the whole point of counter-picking in the first place. I don't think there should be a ban on these stages unless someone can prove without a shadow of a doubt that Greninja, Shadow Sneak, and those certain Omega Stages are detrimental to competitive play.

 

[Luco]

Pfft. I have trouble seeing Snake's grenades on Final Destination. If the camera is zoomed out they're just too tiny and the background is so busy. I absolutely hate playing against Snake in 2v2s specifically because of this.

Haha, i've never had a problem with this. Weird haha. :3

Well the only real thing that would determine if it was severely detrimental to competitive play would be if greninja's sideB not being able to be seen was overpowered. Alternatively you could argue that the principle behind not being able to judge and not being able to at least try and come up with a counter is something that warrants their ban.

I'm not sure how I feel about it to be honest. XD

 

[S.D]

Yes these stages give Greninja an advantage he doesn't normally have, but I feel that's the whole point of counter-picking in the first place. I don't think there should be a ban on these stages unless someone can prove without a shadow of a doubt that Greninja, Shadow Sneak, and those certain Omega Stages are detrimental to competitive play.

Wow this conversation is gettin stale, this issue was broached like 5 pages back and I said the exact same thing then. *sigh

 

[Shaya]

Well if you didn't say why I'm personally against them, then I'll cover you

The game having gimmick visual interferences (inconsistent between stages/etc) is very uncompetitive and detrimental to competitive play. We're skill testing, and I don't consider abusing the blind or nullifying counter play for a character as skills; especially when the alternatives are 100% fine.
Visual element changes are there for aesthetics, not to alter game play. If those aesthetics are actually altering game play, then it's detrimental.

 

[Invisi]

Personally I find Greninja's Shadow Sneak to be a pretty lackluster move. It deals about 10% normally and 12% from behind. The move doesn't KO till around 130~140(behind 120~130)%. It's something Greninja has to commit to and it is completely unsafe on block. The move is really easy to see coming unless you're distracted. When Greninja uses Shadow Sneak he can not dash, dodge, shield, or use any other attacks. The only things Greninja can do while Shadow Sneaking is walk, crawl, jump, and taunt.

Personally I think stages that make the shadow unable to be seen is perfect for more interesting gameplay. This in no way makes Greninja overpowered as he is still really limited in actions and the move itself is average in terms of power. On these stages it actually allows Greninja to play mind games with his opponent. Is Greninja walking because he's using Shadow Sneak? Or is Greninja actually free to go into shield or throw out a tilt attack?

Yes these stages give Greninja an advantage he doesn't normally have, but I feel that's the whole point of counter-picking in the first place. I don't think there should be a ban on these stages unless someone can prove without a shadow of a doubt that Greninja, Shadow Sneak, and those certain Omega Stages are detrimental to competitive play.

You don't seem to be aware of Shadow Sneak's main use case. As long as he was not in helpless, Greninja can use Shadow Sneak during landing lag (even if he just used an aerial or airdodge). If your opponent rolls away from an aerial, you can Shadow Sneak towards them for follow up. If your opponent is looking to punish a missed aerial, you can just tap the move to completely cancel your lag and punish their punish attempt.

Then again, this use case is fairly predictable, so I guess what you were saying still applies. So maybe you did know about it. But I am still going to agree with the sentiment that taking away the only surefire tell that a move is being used (and a tell that is intended to be in the game), combined with the fact that there are other Omega Pillar stages with exactly the same layout which do not have the same property, is enough reason to disallow those stages (or at least disallow those stages when Greninja is playing).

 

[Splice]

Well if you didn't say why I'm personally against them, then I'll cover you

The game having gimmick visual interferences (inconsistent between stages/etc) is very uncompetitive and detrimental to competitive play. We're skill testing, and I don't consider abusing the blind or nullifying counter play for a character as skills; especially when the alternatives are 100% fine.
Visual element changes are there for aesthetics, not to alter game play. If those aesthetics are actually altering game play, then it's detrimental.

Should've made Smashville a counterpick in Brawl then, and removed Lylat.
Instead, this view is new to me.

 

[Attila_]

I definitely liked lylat in Brawl because no one could see my nades.

Just sayin'