Meta Australian Smash 4 General Ruleset Discussion

[Shaya]

Someone: "oh yeah Apex ruleset got released! what about them miis with 2222 and 3333 being legal?"
Shay: "But I just looked at this pdf and it said 1111 only [it really did], but it doesn't make any sense why they'd have 2222 or 3333 sets, where's my palutena at, why can't I just have a 1123 set?"
D1: "[ill have to find out what the real ruling is because I agree it is weird and inconsistent and something]"
*shortly later*
D1: ~Some sort of magical babadook let's go magic spell~
Apex guy: Its christmas, don't make me ruin people's fun on Christmas
*next day*
D1: Hooray, 1111 only is official, we in there
*high five*

(this summation of events may have taken more than a few days)
Without the power of the Goddess, we may have had a spooky Mii Brawler or two taking apex spots.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Venks: "oh yeah Apex ruleset got released! what about them miis with 2222 and 3333 being legal?"
Shay: "But I just looked at this pdf and it said 1111 only [it really did], but it doesn't make any sense why they'd have 2222 or 3333 sets, where's my palutena at, why can't I just have a 1123 set?"
D1: "[ill have to find out what the real ruling is because I agree it is weird and inconsistent and something]"
*shortly later*
D1: ~Some sort of magical babadook let's go magic spell~
Apex guy: Its christmas, don't make me ruin people's fun on Christmas
*next day*
D1: Hooray, 1111 only is official, we in there
*high five*

(this summation of events may have taken more than a few days)
Without the power of the Goddess, we may have had a spooky Mii Brawler or two taking apex spots.

lol
Also I fixed a bit for ya

 

[Shaya]

someone may have been d1.

 

[luke_atyeo]

I'm pretty sure we already established that it doesn't really matter what apex do, but if you guys want to keep fighting over it thats cool too

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

So... what the hell shall we "discuss" about now?
Music?

 

[Pete278]

I already told you guys no discussion was needed a whole bunch of posts ago, so you've already discussed way more than needed, should be proud.

Also I think music should be off because its distracting, that's how we play in Perth

 

[Pazx]

until we can replace all music with heavy metal covers of KK slider tracks music should be turned off

Edit: I wouldn't mind seeing posts from intelligent and respected members of the community focused on their preferred rulesets and the positive aspects to them rather than mindless bickering that is effectively "apex" "customs" "no customs" "melbourne" "no you're a hypocrite"

 

[Jamwa]

black is back is the best song though?

 

[Attila_]

T+C > FD in 3 stage starter lists

 

[Pazx]

5 stage starter lists > 3 stage starter lists

 

[Leisha]

I played some customs yesterday with Ricky online.

Customs are actually pretty fun crazy **** happens but I approve. (because R.O.B gets sooo much better with customs Bias)

But yeah I guess its going to be a tough one getting everyone to decide on customs or not.

I'm probably more concerned with stages more than customs. People running away all day on Kongo :/.

 

[Attila_]

Kongo and duck hunt are the same.

Buuuuut no one is abusing it yet.

 

[Gords]

T+C > FD in 3 stage starter lists

hmm this may be the first thing i actually agree with you on.
i take it your 3 stages would be BF, SV, T&C

 

[Pazx]

"you can run away on KJ64"

+ ban barrel scrooging

incredible

 

[M]

T+C > FD in 3 stage starter lists

I'm inclined to agree, but I've seen too many situations on that stage in which the platforms that exit to the sides are still technically capable of killing someone. Not incredibly common, but it happens, not unlike that stupid platform from Frigate in Brawl. Everyone loved that stage, right?

Why, oh why can't the Miiverse stage just be released and free us from this torment...

 

[luke_atyeo]

"you can run away on KJ64"

+ ban barrel scrooging

incredible

is your point here that you cant run away because stalling is banned?
Stalling and running away are not the same thing, running away never puts you in an unreachable state.

 

[Pete278]

I'm inclined to agree, but I've seen too many situations on that stage in which the platforms that exit to the sides are still technically capable of killing someone. Not incredibly common, but it happens, not unlike that stupid platform from Frigate in Brawl. Everyone loved that stage, right?

Why, oh why can't the Miiverse stage just be released and free us from this torment...

I know so far I've done nothing but troll, but Frigate also didn't have a ledge on one side and sometimes the flip would trap you underneath the stage. Its not like its only problem was sometimes you'd get stuck on the platform as it moved away.

 

[Leisha]

I remember sometimes if you were on the left side of the stage and it flipped, you can be star KO'ed at any percent. I died at 0% once =<

 

[Zediwonder]

T&C isn't as bad as frigate was with the platforms, I think there's a bit more time to react to the platforms movement before it kills you. I think it's a bad choice for starter but I honestly don't have any evidence I can use that feels like an objective complaint outside the fact that the platforms being so high works better for some characters more than others, which I don't think is really a fair argument because all the starters are like that to some degree.

I don't mind the current starter list, if we're doing 5 for a starter list I would put T&C on it without second thought, and probably miiverse when it comes out. I just don't want Lylat cruise back as a starter.

 

[luke_atyeo]

you call that trolling?

 

[Pazx]

I'm inclined to agree, but I've seen too many situations on that stage in which the platforms that exit to the sides are still technically capable of killing someone. Not incredibly common, but it happens, not unlike that stupid platform from Frigate in Brawl. Everyone loved that stage, right?

Why, oh why can't the Miiverse stage just be released and free us from this torment...

I think it is very, very unlikely that Miiverse will be a legal stage distinct from BF, however we have to wait and see. Don't get your hopes up.

is your point here that you cant run away because stalling is banned?
Stalling and running away are not the same thing, running away never puts you in an unreachable state.

You can run away on Battlefield, the "problem" with KJ64 revolves around the barrel so with rules modified to cater to that particular way of stalling there is no issue. If we're genuinely considering banning KJ64 because you can run away we might as well play every match on FD.

 

[Attila_]

Incorrect. KJ64 platforms are much higher than most platforms, and having two on separate sides of the stage disallows from continued grounded pressure. No other stage on our current list has this. The barrel only serves to complicate things further.

 

[M]

To clarify, I wasn't saying the moving platform was the sole reason Frigate was bad, just grabbing at similarities between the two. I still stand by the fact that it having dangerous properties in any sense should make it not starter material.

Also 2 Animal Crossing starters in a 3 stage list? ****ing ****, Sakurai.

 

[Splice]

Is there an information database on stages yet?

I don't know if T&C platform progression is randomised and what the timings are if it isn't, but I find the changes to be pretty disruptive and also abusable depending on what's going on when they appear. It's not a big deal but I wouldn't really want to play on it as a starter if there are more static options.

On the topic of K64 being a stage where campy run-away play is potent, I thought Duck Hunt was also categorised as having that problem. I'm not convinced run away play is universally potent enough to make these stages ban worthy, but some characters can't do much about it, such as Little Mac.

 

[Venks]

Is there an information database on stages yet?

I don't know if T&C platform progression is randomised and what the timings are if it isn't, but I find the changes to be pretty disruptive and also abusable depending on what's going on when they appear. It's not a big deal but I wouldn't really want to play on it as a starter if there are more static options.

On the topic of K64 being a stage where campy run-away play is potent, I thought Duck Hunt was also categorised as having that problem. I'm not convinced run away play is universally potent enough to make these stages ban worthy, but some characters can't do much about it, such as Little Mac.

Town & City always starts with three platforms for about 30 seconds, no platforms for about 15 seconds, two platforms for about 35 seconds, no platforms for about 15 seconds, three platforms for about 35 seconds, repeat.
The characters that perform well here seem to be chars like Zero Suit, C. Falcon, Diddy, and anyone else who has strong up airs. The higher platforms on the 3-platform formation tend to be perfect for giving these characters there jumps back and allowing them to strongly follow up with their up-air strings.
I don't mind it as a starter. Due to how high the platforms in the 3-platform formation are and the moments of no platforms this stage feels a lot like a 2nd Final Destination to me for most matchups. I enjoy this stage much more than Smashville which can end up being pretty bad for me as I don't have any real way to approach its platform as Little Mac.

I haven't played much Kong 64 so I can't say anything on that. But Duck Hunt really isn't that bad of a stage and I say that as a Little Mac main. I tend to take my opponents to Duck Hunt simply because the stage is wider than most and therefore it is more difficult to take me off stage from a grab at mid-stage.
The main thing people talk about is Little Mac having trouble getting to the top of the tree. I've gotten early KOs from that tree thanks to Rising Uppercut and people's false perception of Little Mac not being able to reach it.

 

[Attila_]

Little mac on Duck Hunt?

Step 1: Shoot him with a projectile. Even if it only does 1%, that's fine. If you don't have one, just get the percent lead.
Step 2: Stay on the top branch
Step 3: Stay there until he feels the need to approach.
Step 4: Shield his upB and throw him offstage
Step 5: Repeat

If little mac is winning games on this stage, it's because his opponents don't really like winning. It's seriously broken flowchart against him here, as he can't get on the tree with a double jump.

 

[Pazx]

Is there an information database on stages yet?

I don't know if T&C platform progression is randomised and what the timings are if it isn't, but I find the changes to be pretty disruptive and also abusable depending on what's going on when they appear. It's not a big deal but I wouldn't really want to play on it as a starter if there are more static options.

On the topic of K64 being a stage where campy run-away play is potent, I thought Duck Hunt was also categorised as having that problem. I'm not convinced run away play is universally potent enough to make these stages ban worthy, but some characters can't do much about it, such as Little Mac.

Research has been done on the following stages:

Big Battlefield
Battlefield
Smashville
Lylat Cruise
Castle Siege
Town & City --------- Here you are
Duck Hunt
Delfino Plaza
Pokemon Stadium 2
Kalos Pokemon League
Mario Galaxy
Coliseum
Gamer
Wii Fit Studio
Kongo Jungle 64
Windy Hill Zone
Luigi's Mansion
Norfair
Orbital Gate Assault
Woolly World
Skyloft
Garden of Hope
Mushroom Kingdom U
Wuhu Island
Mario Circuit

I highly recommend everyone looks into the threads for stages like Skyloft and anything else that could be legal but is currently borderline.

 

[Venks]

Little mac on Duck Hunt?

Step 1: Shoot him with a projectile. Even if it only does 1%, that's fine. If you don't have one, just get the percent lead.
Step 2: Stay on the top branch
Step 3: Stay there until he feels the need to approach.
Step 4: Shield his upB and throw him offstage
Step 5: Repeat

If little mac is winning games on this stage, it's because his opponents don't really like winning. It's seriously broken flowchart against him here, as he can't get on the tree with a double jump.

That doesn't really work in actual play. I heard about how Earl got 2-stocked by V on Duck Hunt. I wanted to see how bad it was, but then I beat V more easily than I ever had before because she was relying on this tree gimmick too much.
I really don't see the problem.

If all your opponent wants to do is shield then just empty jump to bait them into shielding. If they keep doing that they wear out their shield. They will then either leave the tree to try and punish your jumps or they'll get hit by Rising Uppercut.
Little Mac has the exact same problem on Battlefield with the top platform. And you solve it the exact same way.

And who gets grabbed out of the Rising Uppercut? Why would you go so high that you can punished on block when instead you can hit them from underneath?

 

[Jamwa]

If all your opponent wants to do is shield then just empty jump to bait them into shielding. If they keep doing that they wear out their shield. They will then either leave the tree to try and punish your jumps or they'll get hit by Rising Uppercut.

or they can just double jump to refresh their shield...? is this even theorycrafting why would anyone do any of the thing's you've said when they can just jump lmao

 

[Attila_]

It works because they don't have to punish you; they can time you out. Double jump up B is 100% shieldable on reaction, so gl wearing my shield down.

The only way this doesn't work is if the player intentionally doesn't want to time mac out.

 

[Venks]

or they can just double jump to refresh their shield...? is this even theorycrafting why would anyone do any of the thing's you've said when they can just jump lmao

If they give up the space then I can safely go up the tree. I've played a lot of people on Duck Hunt in tournaments and I've yet to have this happen. Still doesn't concern me if they do. I'm not trying to theorycraft I'm trying to share my experience with the stage.
I've won on Duck Hunt far more than I've lost.
When I lose on that stage it was because I was outplayed. Not because they tried to gimmick me with tree, that's never been an issue.

It works because they don't have to punish you; they can time you out. Double jump up B is 100% shieldable on reaction, so gl wearing my shield down.

The only way this doesn't work is if the player intentionally doesn't want to time mac out.

I don't have to wear your shield down. If I've conditioned you to block then I'll just go on a lower branch on the tree instead because I don't have to worry about you punishing Rising Uppercut.

Again I'm not doing theorycraft. This is what I've done on the stage and I consistently win on it. It's the exact same problem Little Mac has on Battlefield. He has no safe way to approach a player on the top platform. You have to use tricks in order to get them off of the platform.
People kept taking me to Battlefield for ages at Couch Warriors even though that's the stage I have the most wins on.
@Jei Jei was one of the first people to pick up on my success on Battlefield and started banning the stage.

 

[Shaya]

Are you making an argument for why that stage should be illegal Attila?

A single character having it a bit tough?

 

[Splice]

Are you making an argument for why that stage should be illegal Attila?

A single character having it a bit tough?

Actually he's just responding to Venks regarding Duck Hunt, a stage that I brought up.
Also Little Mac isn't the only character that can have trouble approaching on that stage, but I am glad that some people agree stages do not need to be banned just because dumb strats are potent only against a few characters. I hope that we can keep Kongo and Duck Hunt.

Venks how long are you in America for?

 

[Attila_]

It was my understanding use little mac and Ganon can only jump on the tree after using up B; their dj isn't high enough.

Also, Billy is right.

 

[dean.]

Can't they ledge-jump -> double jump up fairly easily onto a lower branch? The tree is right next to the ledge.

 

[Splice]

is ledge jump bigger than FH for all characters?

 

[Attila_]

Can't they ledge-jump -> double jump up fairly easily onto a lower branch? The tree is right next to the ledge.

That's an interesting idea that I haven't seen anyone try; it still leaves them real vulnerable though.

 

[Pazx]

They can also use the dog as a platform to get up there if you guys have forgotten.

 

[Attila_]

They can also use the dog as a platform to get up there if you guys have forgotten.

Jump away to the other platform, jump back. Not hard given ganondorf and mac's atrocious air speed.

 

[Splice]

yeah the thing that makes it a problem is you can jump and then land on the lower platform if someone makes an attempt and coming up the tree, you're not just limited to jump on the spot and holding shield. Some characters can make it from the lower platform to the top of the tree easily without commitment.

That said you can kill the ducks next to the tree to make the dog pop up right next to the tree, or don't kill the ducks and he goes in the middle and that's actually pretty good because contrary to what Attila said that's a pretty good option for cutting off their ability to make it to the bush.

I've played Dreadtech a fair bit on this stage with the intention of camping, and both of us have been on the role of frustrated Little Mac or the role of retreating Sheik/Greninja. So far, there's always been opportunities for the Little Mac to claim victory. If someone chooses to camp on Duck Hunt it can be really slow, but there are smart cunning ways to get around it every time, such as using the dog or the mind games that Venks has suggested. I haven't tried jumping from the edge yet.

I think someone like Bowser might suffer here more than Little Mac, even though his aerials are better his ability to get up the tree isn't great and his UpB is less threatening