Meta Australian Smash 4 General Ruleset Discussion

[Pazx]

Here's what Ampharos has to say about the tree, particularly in regards to Rosalina. Also, reminder that Bowser/Mac/Ganon can strike or ban the stage if they choose and removing a stage entirely because of one character is silly.

Tree camping just obviously doesn't work in most match-ups. It's basic positional theory for this game. Being above your opponent sucks. Most dairs are slow and have inferior hitboxes compared to most uairs (uair is an extremely good aerial on almost every character, and that's not a design coincidence). Landings can be trapped for forced hits. Being really high up puts you in prime position to be killed off the top very early. Hearing the suggestion that Rosalina is the one doing this especially cements for me that these players are probably not very strong players and that's the entire issue they'e having on the stage. Let's go over why Rosalina is one of the very worst characters in the game at camping the tree:

-Extremely low fall speed, easy to time/space your juggles versus her.
-Frame 18 dair is extremely slow, no special moves to alter her momentum or protect her in the air.
-Blocking attacks from below often results in Luma death, Luma generally horrible at hitting downward or following Rosalina in a fall.
-Rosalina's physics make her one of the least resistant characters in the game to vertical KOs, will die extremely early if hit with a strong uair or up special even compared to others.
-Up special has no hitboxes and extreme commitment, has no utility at all as a last ditch escape in a juggle situation.

Whereas her pros...

+Large double jump
+Big hitboxes on dair
+Airdodge animation makes her slightly harder than average to follow if she times evasion correctly.

Yeah, if Rosalina tries to camp the tree, just uair her a lot (or use vertical projectiles if you have them; she can Gravitational Pull them, but that commits her and gives you even more time to set up that uair). If she blocks, keep doing it until Luma is dead and you start shield stabbing her. The platforms are too small for her to roll to avoid anything. If she jumps off the tree, just follow up to keep her in a juggle trap. I don't even see why you'd pick Rosalina for this task when almost any other character could do it relatively better; if I wanted to tree camp, I'd pick G&W for sure, maybe Fox, definitely not Rosalina.

The only two characters who are particularly worried about tree camping are Little Mac and Ganondorf who cannot double jump up there. Little Mac is a character I am not convinced is viable in general or a character I'm convinced really matters; we can't make stage rules to baby him. Ganon is an actual shame, but Ganon can deal with every other stage so Ganon mains just have to use a stage ban on Duck Hunt (we run multiple stage bans per player which should be the norm, but even if you only have one, DH is the only one Ganon truly needs). Tree camping might also work against someone like Zelda who has too severe of a case of being bad and is feasible to consistently avoid in juggle situations, but even there, you're pretty much choosing to win the hard way so it doesn't really make sense.

I've been playing on this stage a lot since launch; it's a good stage. The tree is an interesting stage element, not a problem. This stage is meaningfully different from FD in several ways. We have a lot of crazy talk here.

 

[Splice]

Yeah totally agree with all of that, which is why I expect we will keep Kongo 64 and Duck Hunt. It does hurt their case for being a starter stages though.

p.s Greninja is probably the best for camping on Duck Hunt because of his UpB, not Rosalina

 

[Cronos_Rainbow]

Hey all. I think any match with Charizard should require the setup have sound enabled. Without the warning sound on side-B he's significantly harder to deal with.

 

[Gords]

EA, Tom and I were thinking of a solution to monitors that have no internal speaker but a headphone/audio jack where we supply an audio splitter to the monitor so both players can play with earphones.

 

[S.D]

Hey guys, have we landed on an agreeable ruleset yet?
Need something for SS6

 

[Pazx]

Hey guys, have we landed on an agreeable ruleset yet?
Need something for SS6

Not even close.

 

[Attila_]

Hey guys, have we landed on an agreeable ruleset yet?
Need something for SS6

Use the CW ruleset with the changes I suggested on fb. Nsw is being difficult.

 

[Pazx]

Use the CW ruleset with the changes I suggested on fb. Nsw is being difficult.

Hey guys, have we landed on an agreeable ruleset yet?
Need something for SS6

"Use the Smash City 6 ruleset. Vic is being difficult."

Just checked the thread for SS, your stage list is your biggest issue at this point, along with "no bans in bo5" (Why? Imitating Melee? Just do 1 ban for bo5 if you want 2 bans in bo3). I encourage 2-2-2-2 and 3-3-3-3 miis to be legalised as well but that's not as important as your stagelist and bans.

 

[Attila_]

No.

There is no unified ruleset; a Melbourne based tournament will use Melbourne based rules.

No bans in bo5 is incorrect; I PM'd SD about this already.

2222 3333 is a made up rule that isn't in Apex; I don't understand.

 

[Jamwa]

This just in, @ Jamwa is now the TO of every state in sm4sh because my opinion is the most different

 

[luke_atyeo]

Use the CW ruleset with the changes I suggested on fb. Nsw is being difficult.

"My idea is the only good one, anyone that disagrees with me is wrong"

Have you even read the last 4 pages of this thread attila?

You are probably not gonna get a great answer here sam, just use whatever has been used in Melbourne for now because Melbourne cant deal with change apparently so stick to what they've been using.

 

[Attila_]

Our last tourney had over 70 entrants; I fail to see what we're doing wrong, or why we should change anything. Our ruleset is also closely aligned with Apex, the premier smash tourney internationally. My opinion isn't just my own, it is the opinion of the majority of the smash 4 playing world.

Has Sydney even road-tested a customs based ruleset? Did you even attend?

 

[Pazx]

Our last tourney had over 70 entrants; I fail to see what we're doing wrong, or why we should change anything. Our ruleset is also closely aligned with Apex, the premier smash tourney internationally. My opinion isn't just my own, it is the opinion of the majority of the smash 4 playing world.

Has Sydney even road-tested a customs based ruleset? Did you even attend?

http://smashboards.com/threads/nsw-...w-facebook-com-events-583690451765842.366938/

please pull your head in

 

[Attila_]

If I read that right, Smash City 3 had 16 entrants. If so, I fail to see how that should overturn a ruleset of a far more active state.

Should also probably mention that apex has a buzillion entrants, and should probably set the standard.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

there are supposedly over 2 billion christians in the world

theres more of them so they must be right

guess we should conform now REPENT SINNERS

#oop #sorrynotsorry

 

[luke_atyeo]

No you didnt read that right, thats why I keep calling you an idiot, because you keep being one.
You cant seem to read anything right, and making completely bull**** unsupported claims like "My opinion isn't just my own, it is the opinion of the majority of the smash 4 playing world." is why you are the laughing stock of the smash community.
You have no way of knowing what anybody beyond you thinks because you clearly dont listen and cant fathom the difference between opinion and fact.
"I fail to see what we're doing wrong, or why we should change anything." This also, as I said, you having this attitude proves to me you haven't understood anything thats been said in this thread at all.

How could you possibly have a strong opinion if you cant see its faults and flaws at all?

Has Sydney even road-tested a customs based ruleset? Did you even attend?

also, yes and yes.

 

[Attila_]

So after all that, how many entrants did Smash City 3 have?

 

[dean.]

Forty-one.

 

[Attila_]

41 entrants really isn't enough to influence a ruleset that is supported by both an 81 entrant interstate tourney, and a 500+ entrant international tourney.

If you're trying to convince us to change the rules, I think you should start by telling us how your ruleset is better than ours, and how it would make our tourneys better and increase our numbers. Otherwise, perhaps you could learn from our example.

Peace.

 

[luke_atyeo]

41 entrants really isn't enough to influence a ruleset that is supported by both an 81 entrant interstate tourney, and a 500+ entrant international tourney.

If you're trying to convince us to change the rules, I think you should start by telling us how your ruleset is better than ours, and how it would make our tourneys better and increase our numbers. Otherwise, perhaps you could learn from our example.

Peace.

I thought you might say something along these lines and you didnt disappoint, nobody is arguing that you didnt have more people in your tourney.

you claim that your ruleset is supported by those 2 events, and that the other ruleset here is supported by a 41 entrant ruleset. now theres a few things to cover here, lets get started.
1. nobody here is trying to convince you to change your rules, you probably got confused about this because you are a proven idiot.
2. you have a very narrow focus and dont see the bigger picture and use that focus to support what you are saying, for instance, you seem to think that the rules we are using are only supported by on 41 man tournament, ignoring the literally hundreds of other tournaments that have been run with the same rules in America, guess you forgot to think about that didnt you.
3. Apex is not 'the premier smash tourney internationally'
4. I dunno about other people, but I have learnt from your example, I took all the stupid toxic parts of the Melbourne brawl scene to heart and avoiding copying any of them in my own scenes, which lead to things like jei coming to visit Canberra and remarking about how much better it is then Melbourne and how he wishes Melbourne were more like Canberra (you remember jei? one of the oldest members of your community who had TO influence, can you even think back that far?)
5. The fact that you cant see whats wrong with your own attitudes and arguements suggests that maybe the correct amount of people to learn from your example would be 0.
6. I already 'started' and finished telling you what was wrong with your ruleset, your attitude and your way of thinking quite a few pages back, and have stated several times already that I dont think you read it because by saying stuff like "I think you should start by telling us how your ruleset is better than ours," you really make it obvious that you either didnt read it, or didnt read it.

Perhaps you should start by reading whats being said? weighing arguments up against each other, not jumping to insane conclusions and generally making sure your data fits your argument. Otherwise perhaps you could learn from my example?

Peace.

 

[Attila_]

"Use the Smash City 6 ruleset. Vic is being difficult."

Just checked the thread for SS, your stage list is your biggest issue at this point, along with "no bans in bo5" (Why? Imitating Melee? Just do 1 ban for bo5 if you want 2 bans in bo3). I encourage 2-2-2-2 and 3-3-3-3 miis to be legalised as well but that's not as important as your stagelist and bans.

I think someone was trying to challenge my ruleset. That's why this conversation started again.

But as it's clear that nothing is actually being discussed (and hasn't for a really, really long time), this thread probably should be closed. I'm still yet to hear an actual responses to my longer posts that detail arguments (logistics, difficulty implementing bans, strengthening the cp system, etc), simply that I'm being selfish or over-controlling or whatever.

Admittedly, I should've learned my lesson; we never could agree on a brawl ruleset, either. We couldn't even agree to ban MK! Trying to form a unified opinion on something like custom moves or stages was an idea without a single chance of success.

I'll stick to forming rulesets with my Melbourne brothers, it's clear that we're doing something right. Perhaps y'all will join us in the land of conservative rulesets in the future, assuming the scene survives that long.

Peace.

 

[luke_atyeo]

I'm still yet to hear an actual responses to my longer posts that detail arguments (logistics, difficulty implementing bans, strengthening the cp system, etc), simply that I'm being selfish or over-controlling or whatever.

Nobody said you were being seflish or over-controlling, literally nobody, this again proves you aren't listening/reading
I have said many times that you are being an idiot/are an idiot.
You said nobody has responded to your points, I pointed out that I had, and the very next post you again claim that NOBODY has responded to you when there are several people who have, including me, links provided because 'go back a few pages and read' seems to be beyong your ability to do.


http://smashboards.com/threads/aust...leset-discussion.371218/page-23#post-18322476
http://smashboards.com/threads/aust...leset-discussion.371218/page-23#post-18317598

I'll stick to forming rulesets with my Melbourne brothers, it's clear that we're doing something right. Perhaps y'all will join us in the land of conservative rulesets in the future, assuming the scene survives that long.

stick to the small pond if you cant handle the ocean, but that proves nothing more then if people suggest that you might not be 100% correct about everything, that you cant handle it and have to go back to somewhere where you have no opposition, thats not how you learn and grow, thats how you maintain your idiocy, a very poor attitude as the entirety of human history has shown.
Also its not clear at all that you are doing something right, actually the last few pages of this thread kinda point that you are doing a lot of things wrong. even this post points out many things you are doing wrong, if you cant realize or accept that, you have no place as somebody in the community who deserves to have input into anything.
The scene will survive, but your attitude sure isnt helping it.
Your attitude, not mine, or anyone elses here, yours Attila.

 

[luke_atyeo]

Also, sorry for double post, but for anyone else reading (mods or whatever)
attilas 'wah people dont agree with me please close the thread' does not warrant this thread being closed.
this thread can be closed when all of our ruleset options have been viewed, discussed, debated, and agreed on.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Heh. I wasn't planning on closing it.

That said, do try to keep flames down, I understand it's difficult when people don't read other's posts, but we're all smash buddies here

 

[Jei Jei]

Sorry Luke I don't really remember that. I vaguely recall commenting on the tournament and maybe comparing the closeness of the scene in Canberra to Melbourne but I don't remember stating my opinion on the quality of that tournament being better than Melbourne's.
I could be wrong though it was a while ago I honestly don't remember.

For what it's worth I agree with Attila's views on the ruleset.
Melbourne tournaments for smash 4 have been pretty sweet so far, the only one I didn't enjoy was the one with customs on.
As for stagelists, idgaf I just want to play every game on T&C.

 

[Attila_]

25 pages has accomplished nothing. It's hard to imagine any more conversation accomplishing anymore.

kk, let's sort some things out.

1. I disliked customs way before the Apex ruleset was announced. I have not heard any official reasons to the customs ban, nor have I heard any confirmation/rationale for the pseudo customs rule.

2. Customs do present a strong logistical problem that extends outside of the tournaments. It is significantly harder to practice against customs, and a player would need to dedicate an absurd amount of time before they are able to practice against the customs at home. I cannot see Nintendo attempting to remedy this; a denial of further balancing and an earlier statement from Sakurai questioning the 'fairness' of custom moves both show Nintendo's lack of interest in custom moves and the competitive community.

3. The counterpicking process becomes even more favoured, as counterpicking characters AND custom sets to counter an opponent would be allowed. I feel hard counters would become too strong, and the first game of a set would become even more important (and first game is already really important).

4. Whatever Apex says the rules are, we should follow. If Apex wanted customs, I would support customs at this point. If that's where the global metagame is headed, we'd be foolish not to follow suit. Falling behind or splinting is not something we can afford to do.

5. I've discussed this in person with most of the veteran Melbourne playing group, and the vote is overwhelmingly against customs moves, mostly for reasons of jankiness or illegitimacy. This isn't an opinion I share alone.

6. While I do not think there are any custom moves that are 'unbeatable', there are a number of custom moves that I feel bring about aspects of the game that I would deem 'anti-competitive', and are detrimental to the development of a healthy metagame and thriving competitive scene. Such examples would be Villager's Slippery Sapling, or the Mii Brawler's Piston Punch. I would also mention that banning individual customs is a serious mess in itself; we couldn't even ban MK during the entire brawl era. What hope do we have sifting through individual moves on an international scale?

Pretty most of this was never addressed.

The logistics issue was addressed in part, using a 3ds to transfer moves over. This is a pretty poor solution; It's hard to give to everybody, and it's hard for people to prepare for custom moves they don't already have access to. Shaya voiced the possibility that Sakurai could release a 'custom moves pack' or sorts, but in reality, this will never happen, as Sakurai doesn't care for competitive smash and doesn't deem custom moves competitive in the first place (http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2014/...ther-outside-fixes-improve-online-experience/),

Shaya has admitted that a number of custom moves are dumb and could be individually banned; I bring up the community's inability to ban even the most broken of things (MK), and use it as a precedent for how bloody difficult it will be to stand united on banning individual moves. This hasn't been responded to.

I don't know if it's worth responding to Aero's Christian comment; obvious troll is obvious. Either way, Apex sets the standard for global smash; Apex rulesets have guided ours for years. While I accept we don't have to follow to the letter, glaringly obvious differences should be minimized.

Otherwise, my other valid points still stand, and have not been responded to with any actual argument. Calling me an idiot or bringing my reputation into question doesn't stand as an argument; it only illegitimizes an opposing stance. And quite frankly, it doesn't benefit me to put up with bull****, so I shouldn't have to, and won't.

 

[Jamwa]

there is most definitely a point for the most popular being better; if players want to travel to APEX or whatever is "the big tournament" and actually win something worthwhile and get recognition, wouldn't you want to be prepared for the ruleset they're using?

you can't devote half your time to learning customs or you will fall behind the meta and find yourself unfit for top competitive play.
but yes there is merit to taking the road less traveled

I just want to play every game on T&C.

t&c should be in every smash game it's so good

@ luke_atyeo i wish every post i made was passive-aggressive slander disguised as concern for the growth of sm4sh

"My idea is the only good one, anyone that disagrees with me is wrong"

oh woops looks like while i was trying to be ironic im being as hypocritical as ever

but seriously, this thread is amazing
no1 can seem to recognize that the final decision comes down to opinion on what's best for the meta of sm4sh because you can't actually know what's best for the meta of sm4sh because it's yet to be developed
if atilla thinks that going along with the popular tournaments will equip players best to compete at those tournaments, then sure good on him for thinking like that
if pazx thinks that trialling customs is worthwhile because it could add depth and be a healthier meta, then sure good on him for thinking like that
but actually saying "wow you're reasoning is wrong" wont work. thats what this whole thread has been.
either decision at this point regarding the rulesets is legitimate, and it's each own state's choice whether to conform to other states (to achieve unity) or develop their own rulesets (which could do what i said above).

 

[Pazx]

shoutout to jamwa for a good post above this one and shoutout to atilla for thinking we should close a thread simply so he gets his way

One point I'd like to make is that it's easier to go from a customs to no-customs environment (especially given that customs play a very small role in a lot of the best character's metagames) and we'll be significantly less far behind the 8 ball if we run with customs and the international stance is banning customs than vice versa. Allowing customs allows us to develop the metagame in more ways than a no-customs environment.

2222 3333 is a made up rule that isn't in Apex; I don't understand.

every rule is made up

kk, let's sort some things out.

1. I disliked customs way before the Apex ruleset was announced. I have not heard any official reasons to the customs ban, nor have I heard any confirmation/rationale for the pseudo customs rule.

2. Customs do present a strong logistical problem that extends outside of the tournaments. It is significantly harder to practice against customs, and a player would need to dedicate an absurd amount of time before they are able to practice against the customs at home. I cannot see Nintendo attempting to remedy this; a denial of further balancing and an earlier statement from Sakurai questioning the 'fairness' of custom moves both show Nintendo's lack of interest in custom moves and the competitive community.

3. The counterpicking process becomes even more favoured, as counterpicking characters AND custom sets to counter an opponent would be allowed. I feel hard counters would become too strong, and the first game of a set would become even more important (and first game is already really important).

4. Whatever Apex says the rules are, we should follow. If Apex wanted customs, I would support customs at this point. If that's where the global metagame is headed, we'd be foolish not to follow suit. Falling behind or splinting is not something we can afford to do.

5. I've discussed this in person with most of the veteran Melbourne playing group, and the vote is overwhelmingly against customs moves, mostly for reasons of jankiness or illegitimacy. This isn't an opinion I share alone.

6. While I do not think there are any custom moves that are 'unbeatable', there are a number of custom moves that I feel bring about aspects of the game that I would deem 'anti-competitive', and are detrimental to the development of a healthy metagame and thriving competitive scene. Such examples would be Villager's Slippery Sapling, or the Mii Brawler's Piston Punch. I would also mention that banning individual customs is a serious mess in itself; we couldn't even ban MK during the entire brawl era. What hope do we have sifting through individual moves on an international scale?

2. The article where Sakurai refers to custom moves as cheating is almost certainly a mistranslation, I'm sure you can work out why having custom moves on For Glory would be problematic. His comments are in regards to playing only with friends. The logistical problem is entirely solved for tournaments at this point, and in regards to practicing at home your options are either grind or bring either a 3DS/Wii U to a tournament/meet/friend who has already done so. It's not a difficult process.

3. This is very easy to overcome as we have multiple options (these are just suggestions and this is something we can tinker with as we choose)
a) Winner chooses character and customs, loser chooses character and customs. Favours loser.
b) Winner chooses character, loser chooses character, winner chooses customs, loser chooses customs. Favours loser, but to a lesser extent in most scenarios.
c) Winner chooses character, loser chooses character and customs, winner chooses customs. Unknown advantage at this point however it SHOULD still favour the loser but to an extent lower than what we have currently.

4. In regards to "falling behind" I feel like there's a more than equal chance that playing with customs will give us a significant head start in comparison to big international events.

6. Things like the Piston Punch have been grossly blown out of proportion, that thing can KO Jigglypuff and Jigglypuff alone in most situations and even then it's not a OHKO as far as I'm aware. I'm not convinced that there are any custom moves that are detrimental to the competitive scene and any moves that are borderline "too good" are on characters like DK who are at the lower end of the "competitively viable" spectrum to begin with.

I'd really like to respond to points 1 and 5 (and 4 more thoroughly) but I can't really, as 1 affects literally nothing, 4 has been discussed to death and 5 is pretty much irrelevant to the rest of the country.

 

[Attila_]

shoutout to jamwa for a good post above this one and shoutout to atilla for thinking we should close a thread simply so he gets his way

I've already got my way. Tournaments in Melbourne (including Australia's largest majors) will continue to run with proper rulesets.

We should close the thread because it accomplishes nothing.

Thank you for unwarranted disrespect; it have me sufficient excuse to ignore everything else you posted.

 

[Splice]

there are supposedly over 2 billion christians in the world

theres more of them so they must be right

guess we should conform now REPENT SINNERS

#oop #sorrynotsorry

this metaphor doesn't quite work

Our events are functional and we haven't agreed on a unified ruleset. The choices are "what we've already been doing which has proven to work in our state" and NSW's different ruleset. Since NSW's ruleset, which may be fine, only boasted a tournament of 16 entrants at Attila's first count and 41 in actuality, it is not very convincing for us to change what we are already doing.

The idea is not that we must be right, but what we're doing is working for us.
Similarly, Christianity is a religion that improves the quality of life for some people, and that's good for them.

 

[Venks]

I don't understand why so many Melbourne players are so averse to custom moves. If you look at Couch Warriors custom and no-custom tournaments it is rather apparent that they have little impact over most players placing. Everyone who places high will place high and everyone who places low will place low. The only difference I think CW would see if they ran their tournament with customs instead of no-customs is that V would be guaranteed to place 1st rather than 2nd.

Don't get me wrong, Tibs is easily one of the best players I've ever faced. But as a Diddy player he's playing with a distinct advantage in most matchups. If he had to deal with non-top characters who have better tools for the matchup thanks to customs then he wouldn't have such a strong advantage.

 

[Splice]

I don't understand why so many Melbourne players are so averse to custom moves. If you look at Couch Warriors custom and no-custom tournaments it is rather apparent that they have little impact over most players placing. Everyone who places high will place high and everyone who places low will place low. The only difference I think CW would see if they ran their tournament with customs instead of no-customs is that V would be guaranteed to place 1st rather than 2nd.

Don't get me wrong, Tibs is easily one of the best players I've ever faced. But as a Diddy player he's playing with a distinct advantage in most matchups. If he had to deal with non-top characters who have better tools for the matchup thanks to customs then he wouldn't have such a strong advantage.

The sample size of the placings doesn't show too much and I think it would mean less and less during the early days since not everyone knows the best strategy with and without customs for their characters. As time went by, if we keep having customs tournies alongside non-customs, I do believe a legitimate impact could be observed.

I think most people are happy with the assortment of viable characters in this game. It is still early days but it feels like there are a wide range of good choices to compete with. But we can't be sure. Likewise, we can't be sure customs will "improve" the tier list or make the gap between the top few characters and the rest smaller. From what has been seen, people may perceive that customs aren't going to be beneficial in this regard because while we know Diddy is very good, it doesn't appear from an outside perspective to be as obnoxious as Villagers customs. No-one really knows, but for me personally from what I've seen I'm very content with how the characters feel and who feels viable in non-custom play. I don't believe the chances are good that customs will improve it, but this is not the reason I am personally against customs.

It's not just about tier list Venks, but some people believe the extra few moves and the counterpicking around them could take away from the core experience. Some people just want to "play the game" and "get good" which means they would like to follow the norm and perfect their play rather than the ruleset - which is why latching onto the decisions of major tournaments is justified. And there are some other things too yes, but some people also think it would be bad for the tier list. But that's not the only reason.

Also saying that V would be guaranteed first place with customs is not only rude but also not a good case for why it would improve the tier list. Tibs' advantage lies more in actually being good at the game rather than his character.

 

[luke_atyeo]

It really is distressing how many times and how many of you are going to keep proving that you dont read and absorb anything thats being said here, (I know this seems like a cheap shot by me and trying to win an argument by just claiming that nobody is listening and reading, but I really really hate people being ignorant and stupid, and thats what I'm really arguing against here, and if you do read my posts you'll see me proving time and time again how much people aren't listening. seriously, its ****ing ridiculous how often its happening.)

Also sorry for how long this post is, but if people are getting mad at their arguments not being addressed (when they are, constantly) then this should be throughout enough to stop people from making silly claims like that.
here we go again...

25 pages has accomplished nothing. It's hard to imagine any more conversation accomplishing anymore.



Pretty most of this was never addressed.

The logistics issue was addressed in part, using a 3ds to transfer moves over. This is a pretty poor solution; It's hard to give to everybody, and it's hard for people to prepare for custom moves they don't already have access to. Shaya voiced the possibility that Sakurai could release a 'custom moves pack' or sorts, but in reality, this will never happen, as Sakurai doesn't care for competitive smash and doesn't deem custom moves competitive in the first place (http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2014/...ther-outside-fixes-improve-online-experience/),

lol, its hard to imagine you've ever accomplished anything ever with that attitude.
Logistics is a big problem I'll give you that, but to say that the 3ds transfer is a poor solution is a little short sighted.
Its an issue, but with proper planning and preparation it works out just fine, I can tell you that from experience.
I've done it and you seemingly haven't so I can tell you that whilst its annoying, its not a poor solution.
Dont worry about what shaya said, you are right that it will never happen. "Sakurai doesn't care for competitive smash and doesn't deem custom moves competitive in the first place" And then gave a link for something comepletely unrelated. Sakurai isnt planning on anymore balance patches in the forseeable future, sure, how exactly does that prove that sakurai doesnt deem custom moves competative? It does't, this is yet another example of you mis-interpreting things and just making up stuff in your head and apliing it to try to prove your point, this isnt even the first or the second time you've done this, you've been doing it constantly throughout this whole thread and thats why you keep getting insulted and why your credability is out the window. I'd like to see you respond to this specifically for once instead of just ignoring it and pretending to yourself that you are correct and didn't make the mistake I just pointed out.



Shaya has admitted that a number of custom moves are dumb and could be individually banned; I bring up the community's inability to ban even the most broken of things (MK), and use it as a precedent for how bloody difficult it will be to stand united on banning individual moves. This hasn't been responded to.

Shaya saying that some custom moves are dumb and could be banned doesnt prove anything, shaya doesnt know what he's talking about. For starters he pointed out the possibility that that is something that may arise, rather then saying flat out thats what they are, and also since when was shaya thinking out loud actual proof of something? As for banning metaknight, there was a big arugement about that, and everyone just decided to follow what America was doing instead of thinking for themselves, if that annoys you which it appears to, maybe you should stop and realize that that is exactly what you yourself are doing right now. the exact same thing. My opinion on the mk ban, for what its worth, is that instead of arguing back and forth we should have done a trial ban, you know? tested and experimented with it and actually gave it a chance to prove itself, kinda like what I'm saying we should do right now for customs. A trial ban on MK would not have harmed anything and would have gone a long way towards making the 'right' decision. Think on the parallels of these two, reread what I just wrote and think about how what you've pointed out actually works against you in this case. Responded to, see its not so hard to actually respond to things instead of ignoring them is it?



I don't know if it's worth responding to Aero's Christian comment; obvious troll is obvious. (actually, he was making a metaphor that was a pretty accurate observation of how flawed your reasoning is, since it was something that you dont agree with I can understand you wanted to tell yourself it was a troll so that you wouldn't have to face the hard truth that you might be wrong.) Either way, Apex sets the standard for global smash; Apex rulesets have guided ours for years. While I accept we don't have to follow to the letter, glaringly obvious differences should be minimized.
uhh, since when? since when did it set the 'global standard' for smash, prove that to me beyond just saying it. I dont recall Europe and especially Asia (you should know this, you went there and played smash with them) using anything close to the Apex rule sets ever. If you are gonna make a wild claim like that, you better back it up or else you might get called an idiot again.

Otherwise, my other valid points still stand, and have not been responded to with any actual argument. - now there is a common occurrence that in online arguments, and that is that after a while both parties just start claiming that the other side is losing the argument because they 'haven't addressed or responded to my point with any real argument', read this carefully now, I have constantly hounded you in this thread, bringing up thing after thing that you've said, and addressed it with REAL ACTUAL ARGUMENTS, count points if you will. I dont know how I can make that any clearer to you and I honestly dont know how you can claim that I havent unless you havent been bothered to read anything I posted. See I learnt a long time ago not to jump to that conclusion. I used to start writing stuff like 'you haven't responded to me at all' and then I would go back over the argument before posting and reread it and realize how wrong I was and have to delete everything I had written. I suggest you start doing the same, you'll begin to quickly notice how much more you see and realize when you read through it more then once, and you'll begin to notice that people DO respond to you and you'll wonder how you thought they didn't in the first place, seriously, go on and try it, open up each post, read a section of it and reply to it like I have been doing. Because again, I cannot make it any clearer, this is something I can actually say with complete confidence that you are wrong because the evidence is right above you.

Calling me an idiot or bringing my reputation into question doesn't stand as an argument; it only illegitimizes an opposing stance. (ok first of all, putting "you're an idiot" at the start of a really great point doesn't suddenly make it not a really great point anymore, it doesn't make it suddenly not correct, so how then does calling someone an idiot illegitimate an opposing stance? It doesn't does it? second of all, calling you an idiot hasnt ever been an arguement of mine. I point out you are an idiot, and I point out WHY you are an idiot, and therein lies the argument, me point out why it is that you are wrong. But you seemingly choose to ignore that and just focus on being called an idiot and something that makes you miss the entire point of what is said.) And quite frankly, it doesn't benefit me to put up with bull****, so I shouldn't have to, and won't. (And so instead of a dressing your countered arguments, patching the holes in your boat, pointing out my holes, and defending yourself properly, you act like a spoiled child and just choose to ignore it. Don't you see that that doesn't make you right, stubbornly ignoring people and counter arguments is whats causing this to become a stupid pointless argument that you think should be closed down. I CHALLENGE you Attila, go back and reread everything I've posted, and counter it in the same way I've been countering you, I dare you to prove me wrong and restore your reputation, or you could just ignore me and prove to everyone in this thread how right I've been all along. Stand up and fight me intellectually, lets get a real proper debate going here.)

quote="Jamwa, post: 18384950, member: 207661"]there is most definitely a point for the most popular being better; if players want to travel to APEX or whatever is "the big tournament" and actually win something worthwhile and get recognition, wouldn't you want to be prepared for the ruleset they're using? (in theory yes, but lets be real for a moment here, Australia is so far behind the competitive curve in terms of raw skill that its actually hard to believe until you see it for yourself. If we set our ruleset to the apex one to compete in apex, first of all thats only going to benefit like 4 people, the majority of the community wont ever travel to apex, and doesnt it make sense to cater to the majority hmm? Secondly, as I said the raw skill is redicuoulsy behind, even if you practiced the apex rule-set you'd get absolutely bodied. Take hall for instance, he's a player that stopped playing the game and thus didn't place well at all, yet when he came to aus, nobody could even touch him. I know that in theory the argument is that that shouldn't matter and thats not a real reason to not try and get as good as you can, and I agree, but in practice, its a stupid reason to base such a big decision like this on because it will have little to no impact at all.)

you can't devote half your time to learning customs or you will fall behind the meta and find yourself unfit for top competitive play. (thats not nessacarily true at all, all and any practice works towards making you better, and suggesting that learning customs is so hard that it would make you unable to perform at top level is very silly if you stop and think about it, no?)
but yes there is merit to taking the road less traveled - that is a good point, but one thats not nessacarily relevant here. What about traveling a road, and then traveling a second road, BEFORE making judgements on which one is better?




@ luke_atyeo i wish every post i made was passive-aggressive slander disguised as concern for the growth of sm4sh

oh woops looks like while i was trying to be ironic im being as hypocritical as ever, I never brought up the hypocritical thing, that was shaya, but while we are at it, haven't the majority of your posts in this thread been pointless passive aggressive trolling that contributes nothing? If you are trying to get serious here maybe you should stop and think about that.
I haven't been posting passive aggressive slander, nor am I particularly concerned for the growth of smash.
My main concern, and the thing I hate the most, is stupidity and ignorance.
Whenever I have called something stupid in this thread, its not because I want to upset or slander them, its because they are being stupid, and I point out exactly what they are doing and why its stupid.
Yes I am unnecessarily rude and confrontational, but the complete idiocy has got to stop. People just making **** up to support their arguments, people not listening, people who get angry at counterpoints because they dont understand that thats the process of refining an argument to find a solution, people who jump to insane conclusions without any regard for fact or evidence, people who aren't listening. None of this is helpful in anyway, yeah I can be a ****, but I'd rather be a **** then derail an entire community by being stupid.

but seriously, this thread is amazing
no1 can seem to recognize that the final decision comes down to opinion on what's best for the meta of sm4sh because you can't actually know what's best for the meta of sm4sh because it's yet to be developed (whoah whoah whoah slow down buddy, remember how I have been constantly flipping out about people not reading? Did I not already say exactly what you just said? I already said that both sides of this argument are opinion without much fact to go on, and that rather then making a decision right now, we should try customs to help flesh out and develop a meta, you cant make judgements on things till you trial them and give them time to prove themselves. that has been a huge point in almost all of my posts, so when you come in here and say that nobody can seem to recognize something, even though somebody already did and made a huge post about it, all you are doing is helping prove my point that none of you are using your brains.)
if atilla thinks that going along with the popular tournaments will equip players best to compete at those tournaments, then sure good on him for thinking like that
if pazx thinks that trialling customs is worthwhile because it could add depth and be a healthier meta, then sure good on him for thinking like that
but actually saying "wow you're reasoning is wrong" wont work. thats what this whole thread has been.
either decision at this point regarding the rulesets is legitimate, and it's each own state's choice whether to conform to other states (to achieve unity) or develop their own rulesets (which could do what i said above). - again, more or less this, but the point is that in order to get a better grip on what it is we are really arguing about, we need to try it out and get some real hard data and experience. [/quote]

there is most definitely a point for the most popular being better; if players want to travel to APEX or whatever is "the big tournament" and actually win something worthwhile and get recognition, wouldn't you want to be prepared for the ruleset they're using? (in theory yes, but lets be real for a moment here, Australia is so far behind the competitive curve in terms of raw skill that its actually hard to believe until you see it for yourself. If we set our ruleset to the apex one to compete in apex, first of all thats only going to benefit like 4 people, the majority of the community wont ever travel to apex, and doesnt it make sense to cater to the majority hmm? Secondly, as I said the raw skill is redicuoulsy behind, even if you practiced the apex rule-set you'd get absolutely bodied. Take hall for instance, he's a player that stopped playing the game and thus didn't place well at all, yet when he came to aus, nobody could even touch him. I know that in theory the argument is that that shouldn't matter and thats not a real reason to not try and get as good as you can, and I agree, but in practice, its a stupid reason to base such a big decision like this on because it will have little to no impact at all.)

you can't devote half your time to learning customs or you will fall behind the meta and find yourself unfit for top competitive play. (thats not nessacarily true at all, all and any practice works towards making you better, and suggesting that learning customs is so hard that it would make you unable to perform at top level is very silly if you stop and think about it, no?)
but yes there is merit to taking the road less traveled




@ luke_atyeo i wish every post i made was passive-aggressive slander disguised as concern for the growth of sm4sh

oh woops looks like while i was trying to be ironic im being as hypocritical as ever, I never brought up the hypocritical thing, that was shaya, but while we are at it, haven't the majority of your posts in this thread been pointless passive aggressive trolling that contributes nothing? If you are trying to get serious here maybe you should stop and think about that.
I haven't been posting passive aggressive slander, nor am I particularly concerned for the growth of smash.
My main concern, and the thing I hate the most, is stupidity and ignorance.
Whenever I have called something stupid in this thread, its not because I want to upset or slandar them, its because they are being stupid, and I point out exactly what they are doing and why its stupid.
Yes I am unnecessarily rude and confrontational, but the complete idiocy has got to stop. People just making **** up to support their arguments, people not listening, people who get angry at counterpoints because they dont understand that thats the process of refining an argument to find a solution, people who jump to insane conclusions without any regard for fact or evidence, people who aren't listening. None of this is helpful in anyway, yeah I can be a ****, but I'd rather be a **** then derail an entire community by being stupid.

but seriously, this thread is amazing
no1 can seem to recognize that the final decision comes down to opinion on what's best for the meta of sm4sh because you can't actually know what's best for the meta of sm4sh because it's yet to be developed (whoah whoah whoah slow down buddy, remember how I have been constantly flipping out about people not reading? Did I not already say exactly what you just said? I already said that both sides of this argument are opinion without much fact to go on, and that rather then making a decision right now, we should try customs to help flesh out and develop a meta, you cant make judgements on things till you trial them and give them time to prove themselves. that has been a huge point in almost all of my posts, so when you come in here and say that nobody can seem to recognize something, even though somebody already did and made a huge post about it, all you are doing is helping prove my point that none of you are using your brains.)
if atilla thinks that going along with the popular tournaments will equip players best to compete at those tournaments, then sure good on him for thinking like that
if pazx thinks that trialling customs is worthwhile because it could add depth and be a healthier meta, then sure good on him for thinking like that
but actually saying "wow you're reasoning is wrong" wont work. thats what this whole thread has been.
either decision at this point regarding the rulesets is legitimate, and it's each own state's choice whether to conform to other states (to achieve unity) or develop their own rulesets (which could do what i said above). - again, more or less this, but the point is that in order to get a better grip on what it is we are really arguing about, we need to try it out and get some real hard data and experience.

I've already got my way. Tournaments in Melbourne (including Australia's largest majors) will continue to run with proper rulesets. - "proper rulesets" Implying that anything anyone else does, like say NSW, is using improper rulesets. You talk about unwarranted disrespect, that could be seen as pretty disrespectful, but more then that, its really dumb to assume, especially this early on, that your view is the only correct one. how could you know that? you've already proven to have very little grasp of the bigger picture, what about new developments and trends that nobody can see coming? To just straight away think that your way is the only proper way is very very poor use of your judgement, and hampers your ability to learn and keep up with things.

We should close the thread because it accomplishes nothing. - already pointed out how wrong this is, because you are starting to lose ground here, and because after your arguments have had some counter arguments to them, and you have failed to convince the other side to join you, this now becomes meaningless and the thread should be shut?
If you cant handle the heat Attila, then dont cry and whine for it to stop, walk away and cool off.

Thank you for unwarranted disrespect; (I think its pretty warrented here, as has been pointed out by me by constantly providing evidence of you doing and saying dumb things that hurt the scene and your own reputation.) it have me sufficient excuse to ignore everything else you posted.(oh thats your excuse? I was beginning to wonder why you've ignored everything I've said.)

The sample size of the placings doesn't show too much and I think it would mean less and less during the early days since not everyone knows the best strategy with and without customs for their characters. As time went by, if we keep having customs tournies alongside non-customs, I do believe a legitimate impact could be observed. -gee that sounds like a good idea, why dont you try it out? Seriously, why dont you try it out and actually do some research for a change?

I think most people are happy with the assortment of viable characters in this game. It is still early days but it feels like there are a wide range of good choices to compete with. But we can't be sure. Likewise, we can't be sure customs will "improve" the tier list or make the gap between the top few characters and the rest smaller. From what has been seen, people may perceive that customs aren't going to be beneficial in this regard because while we know Diddy is very good, it doesn't appear from an outside perspective to be as obnoxious as Villagers customs. No-one really knows, but for me personally from what I've seen I'm very content with how the characters feel and who feels viable in non-custom play. I don't believe the chances are good that customs will improve it, but this is not the reason I am personally against customs.

It's not just about tier list Venks, but some people believe the extra few moves and the counterpicking around them could take away from the core experience. Some people just want to "play the game" and "get good" which means they would like to follow the norm and perfect their play rather than the ruleset - which is why latching onto the decisions of major tournaments is justified. yeah ok, but those people aren't really here arguing are they? the people here that are arguing are the not those people, they are the people that want to try and find the best ruleset for us, so what do those people have to do with this? And there are some other things too yes, but some people also think it would be bad for the tier list. But that's not the only reason.

Also saying that V would be guaranteed first place with customs is not only rude but also not a good case for why it would improve the tier list. Tibs' advantage lies more in actually being good at the game rather than his character.

this metaphor doesn't quite work

Our events are functional and we haven't agreed on a unified ruleset. The choices are "what we've already been doing which has proven to work in our state" and NSW's different ruleset. Since NSW's ruleset, which may be fine, only boasted a tournament of 16 entrants at Attila's first count and 41 in actuality, it is not very convincing for us to change what we are already doing. - numbers alone should not be what tips the scale here, I think because of this you fail to grasp the point of the metaphor which was simply that numbers aren't a definite proof of something being true or correct. The numbers thing could be simply due to the fact that Melbourne has more turnout in general due to having a slightly bigger scene hm? Maybe if we had run a customs off tourney and you had run a customs on tourney our numbers might have been reversed, would that suddenly mean that our having more numbers then you makes us right all of a sudden?

The idea is not that we must be right, but what we're doing is working for us. - thats fair enough, but that hasn't been the stance of your state so far, Melbourne has been pretty insistent that everyone should leave behind the 'doing whats working for them' and come together to form a unified rule set so that we can compete on a global level. Which is it? Furthermore, we aren't here to discuss in this thread what works for who, the whole point of this thread is to try and find the best set of rules, therefore wouldn't it make sense in that context that each side is pitting its arguments against the other to try to determine whats best?
Similarly, Christianity is a religion that improves the quality of life for some people, and that's good for them.

 

[luke_atyeo]

^
After all that effort, you cant tell me I'm just flaming people, look at that ****, you better all be bothered to read it or you'll make me super sad

 

[Shaya]

Apex is the international premiere event but it by no means intends to set the standard for the future at this early stage of the game's life.
Straight up.

We had our own spins on rulesets for years, Australias rulesets were within their own; people's who's opinions were generally listened to were the guys you saw be apart of discussion internationally and had a vested and keen interest for knowledge and adjudicating a fair rule set. We went towards Apex towards the later years because our own scene had developed somewhat independently towards the same point as well.

Now for the first smash 4 international tournament, technically 2 months after it's release, skill and understanding of the game are going to be well below a standard worth giving it the notoriety of 'the standard'.

Now customs can be ickie right now, but they're worth testing out/developing. I'm not sure if right now is the best time to do so, but at the same time when will any other time be the right time (MK-ban arguments )
We as human beings will always have a status quo tendency. When it comes to customs the danger is that in a few months/years time when we're looking at potentially spicing up the game (a time something like customs would be looked at) the best players (i.e. those with the loudest voices in social-media-esque stuff) are going to prefer the game they have and are winning in over one they'd have to sit down and relearn or be at a knowledge deficit in compared to someone else. Anyone going to believe otherwise?

Now customs have a few quirks that are at first glance obnoxious. We know of trip sapplings, heck Venks is sure that V would win custom tournaments because of these (and some other customs too!). Making certain characters more viable to the point of not improving the game by the damage they wrath; Villager customs stall games almost indefinitely - are the best characters we perceive right now have much of a chance? If they don't, and no one else doesn't, that's an issue. Who's going to agree to cull Villager custom choices? How much frustration should be put onto players when there's an easier option out there they are mentally aligned to and are willing to come to terms with the broken that exists (diddy dthrow! etc)? How long is it going to take?

Anyway, it's all a big problem. We have two solid stances - Making our large scene stronger, faster (to an 'international' standard) and trying to find the best "game" possible with the new options (customs) that exist. Tournament resources aren't going to allow both to exist in parallel at the same event. However bigger scenes in the USA right now are having multiple tournaments per week, including weekdays with solid numbers. Supporting both stances would be better than only supporting one (although I'm firm that the latter is still helpful for skill universally, you will be behind the former 'meta' which by whatever reason is more common at this point but not by too much IMO; [you should have multiple characters under your belt anyway]).

A lot of my chagrin about the former is that people's opinions on the alternative seems to get worse as time goes on without even attempting it (or ever attempting it) as a serious thing. When characters were chosen and they weren't as compatible with customs-environment, it was the rules fault rather than the player's choice. But it goes both ways.

Rant rant verbatim point concluded later maybe.

 

[Attila_]

@ luke_atyeo

http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2014/...ther-outside-fixes-improve-online-experience/

This is article I referenced earlier. The title is actually a trap; I'd like you to read more than that.

Here is the quote I was referring to:

"Sakura: When playing with your personal friends, I think it's probably more interesting that you can almost cheat a little through customizing your character. *Laughs*"

Here is the source Japanese:

http://www.eventhubs.com/images/201...fixes-improve-online-experience-famitsu-scan/

Quote is taken from the 3rd column, 4th line from the bottom. Word is question is 'インチキっぽい', as it is being used to describe Sakurai's view on custom moves. The word itself normally denotes an object that is 'fake' or 'illegitimate', like a cheap copy of a brand-name handbag.

Also, don't discredit Australia so harshly. I played at Apex 2013 5 years into the brawl meta, and still came top 49 (out of over 300) in what was largely considered the most stacked brawl tourney ever. While smash 4 is new, we stand an even better chance.

@ Shaya

Do you actually want to play a game with a character that can stall game indefinitely? Is that something we actually want in the meta?

As stated earlier, no custom move is unbeatable, but they certainly can make the game stall-ish and anti-competitive.

 

[luke_atyeo]

Well done, you used your head for once and you were right about something and countered what I was saying.
Why did you stop? Did you run out of things to be right about?

 

[Shaya]

It being a problem with 1 or 2 characters doesn't really sound that bad considering what the meta centralises on now anyway (Sheik / Diddy) and with all the otherwise 'gains'.

If individual moves are anti-competitive, ban them :D (If people are interested/willing with the prospect

 

[Pazx]

I've already got my way. Tournaments in Melbourne (including Australia's largest majors) will continue to run with proper rulesets.

We should close the thread because it accomplishes nothing.

Thank you for unwarranted disrespect; it have me sufficient excuse to ignore everything else you posted.

"nobody has responded to my points"
*responds to your points*
"i have excuse to ignore everything you just posted"

You are detrimental to the entire australian smash community. I've already responded to your interview with Sakurai. Stop burying your head in the sand.

 

[Splice]

@ luke_atyeo Yes I do believe in unifying the ruleset and as Shaya said Apex does not set the standard for the future of the game. However Shadowloo Showdown is less than a month away and my post was in regard to why we are using Apex ruleset for that. Assuming the same progress is made in the next month that has been made in the last month, we won't get any closer to unifying a ruleset or making good changes. Perhaps this counts as "logistics" being a reason for our ruleset at this event, but it is a ruleset that we think is still competitive and to us it is very important that the tournament is a quality experience.
Please don't misunderstand a post referring to decisions that have to be made ASAP for one tournament as my whole stance on how we need to progress towards a better ruleset.

I agree with Shaya's rant, I think myself and Attila do care more about the "larger stronger faster" (just trying to build numbers in the scene and run events) than trying to find the very best ruleset. Not that either of us are convinced customs are the better game. If time allows we SHOULD run some customs+no-customs singles again and see how that progresses in future, that's actually exactly what I was suggesting thanks Luke

Pazx it's really cool you made some graphs of jigglypuff kill %'s on stages but if you're going to call Attila a detriment to the smash community you're only making yourself look stupid. You can all disagree with Attila's responses and wording as much as you want but when it comes to nurturing his scene Attila kept things running here (along with others) especially during Brawl's last few years.
If you wanted to be mature and get him to actually respond to you intelligently, you don't need to be disrespectful.
I think Attila could go for "I'm sorry you took offence to that, could you please respond to my post?" if you really wanted to progress the discussion. Your last post does not promote discussion and I hope Attila does not feel the need to respond to this train of thought.

If individual moves are anti-competitive, ban them :D (If people are interested/willing with the prospect

If this actually becomes a legitimate prospect it could be interesting, but it will definitely be tedious to make the changes, and getting more conservative (or liberal but that's not usually the trend) over time could apply to customs as well as stages. It could still work though