Apex 2012 Ruleset Discussion

[Keitaro]

Also, what happened to the BBRRC? Axel, do you feel justified in stabbing what could be the most important organizations for brawl in america in the back? You know, the one that makes sure that all nationals have the same ruleset? The one that might unify the brawl community? What's the justification?

Alex did leave the BBRRC not too long ago, but this issue has been brought up to the BBRRC and we're taking some action on it now.

I do love that Brinstar is not allowed myself, but I don't see a reason to ban Picto and/or PS2 atm. There isn't much of a reason to ban Brinstar imo either, but I personally would rather it gone. Obviously I don't let personal opinion go into my judgement of the stage though.

For Japanese players, it might be a pain in the ***, but they already seem to have been fine with the stage list at the last Apex as they placed just fine.

 

[TheZhuKeeper]

Ban Meta Knight!

 

[LLDL]

Bring back Corneria

Edit :Lol Whoops. Disregard that.

 

[EPsilon933]

Ban Meta Knight!

+1 vote

 

[l!nk_aut]

stagelist looks awesome. cadet now also annoying swf. and even in a tourney thread where he's most likely not even going to attend.

 

[Alex Strife]

Hey guys,

Basically I talked with az and got the ok since this is a major international brawl tournament it is not considered a national and has the ok to change the ruleset.


I thank u guys for ur knowledge but the list wont be changing anytime soon

 

[CT Chia]

It doesn't make sense to use a ruleset that caters to international players when they will make up 20 players at most compared to the 200+ US players that will be there

 

[EPsilon933]

It doesn't make sense to use a ruleset that caters to international players when they will make up 20 players at most compared to the 200+ US players that will be there

Theirs makes more sense, imo (The Japanese stage list)

 

[AlphaZealot]

I never said with 100% that you would get stickies etc if you went against the BBR-RC. I said we *may* be able to make an exception to Apex because it would be international and that was your reason for making the stagelist what it is. Additionally for the BBR-RC to break the policy would require most of everyone in the BBR-RC to agree to allowing an exception for your tournament, it is not my decision alone. It would possibly/probably also require an OK from the Smash Senate and/or JV because it would be an exception to new forum policy. Regardless of all of that, it is a decision that would not be made for another 6 months.

Finally, I don't "OK" someones ruleset. That is absurd. I always say anyone can run anything you want (my next event may be MK banned). If you want the bells and whistles (stickies/AiB coverage) you'll have to go with the BBR-RC Ruleset which hasn't yet been released (yay awkward and complicated transition period).

Anyways, I'm staying away from this-it does not bother me that this is what the Apex stagelist is, just like if it were 20 stages it would not bother me. We have COT5/Whobo/tons of others coming up that will hopefully use the (soon to be released) same ruleset that will not use this stagelist.

 

[Alex Strife]

We will take it to pm im cause im not gonna cause drama

 

[Keitaro]

There's still time for changes/discussion/ and come to agreements. Luckily this was announced early.

In the end, I'm following whatever we at the BBRRC decide for the decision for all my future tournaments, which includes the Road to Apex KTAR.

 

[Alex Strife]

Yea I just meant it for apex not the road to apex.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Hey guys,

Basically I talked with az and got the ok since this is a major international brawl tournament it is not considered a national and has the ok to change the ruleset.


I thank u guys for ur knowledge but the list wont be changing anytime soon

Please ignore BPC and use only Rc or Brinstar because having both legal is really bad. It just means that Mk is guaranteed a win if you lose the first round because then you get Cp'd to the stage you didn't ban and get Mk'd.

I like the current stage list to be honest. I like the idea of Picto and Ps2 being legal as well, but lets be honest here...Who actually ever Cp's Ps2 when it's even legal? Picto the Sonic's and Dk's always Cp when YI is banned, but picto is more like Fd in a sense. Picto being like fd makes it Mk "Cp-able".

I'm not Pro-ban, just very conservative when it comes to stage lists.

Yes, because we should be adapting to Japan. The place where they not only aren't allowed to play for money, but are also ******** when it comes to rulesets. You have got to be ****ing kidding me. This is literally worse than any recent german stagelist. You have officially become more conservative than GERMANY. And I made fun of them... God dammit.

No Brinstar. Okay, fine, I can understand that. Brinstar and RC are kind of ridiculous for MK, and banning one of them is a decent move. Still, the states have been fine with both for how long? This is not a step forwards! Furthermore, two stage bans is better than banning the stage on virtually every level. MK busted on those two stages? Boom, two stage bans and suddenly it's not a problem, and only available for matchups where it isn't broken. But if it's the choice between what is better in theory but untested in practice and what is way worse in theory but shown in practice to not break anything, playing it safe only loses something that nobody here cares about (competitive depth in regards to stages).


No PS2. Okay this is where I start to get pissy. Worried about the international audience?
http://forum.germansmash.de/thread.php?threadid=14529
Look under ruleset and you'll see that PS2 is legal.
http://forum.germansmash.de/thread.php?threadid=14762
Same there.
http://forum.germansmash.de/thread.php?threadid=13171
Same there. Those are the most recent and two upcoming major tournaments in germany. All of them have PS2 in their rulesets. I have argued god knows how many pages over Pokemon Stadium 2 as a legal stage. I will continue to do so, in this thread if need be. There is simply not a single reason to ban this stage. It has gained widespread acceptance by even the most conservative of players, was in the BBRRC list, and has proven through fairly extensive playtesting to be a complete and utter non-issue. The only possible reason to ban it is because people would whine about it. And at that point... Why is MK legal for this tournament?

Starters... Eh. To be expected. 7 starter (what pound used) is just so much better though.

I'm sorry if I sound a little exasperated, but this is just quite a lot of time of mine going up in smoke. This ruleset is a gigantic step backwards for brawl. Seriously. I mean, **** the BBRRC, right? They don't need to be paid attention to. I thought that their ruleset was bogus, but now I realize that it's not only way better than yours, it's also going to be ignored like any other centralized brawl organization.
Gratz.


...Yeah, for the most part I'm just salty that you took the already stupidly conservative AN list and removed two stages. And that this is, more likely than not, going to be the new norm. Nice going, Axel. And **** you Kaffei.

And before anyone says, "well why do you care", like I said this is worse than in germany. Before as **** got slowly more and more conservative, I could at least stand back and say, "well, it's not getting any worse, at least". If this leaks to germany, then I'm going to be really ****ing pissed because this ruleset is bogus, and it's got exactly one stage less than the most current german ones–my favorite stage less.

Even when Pound 5 used 7 starters, the stages always chose were Smashville, Battlefield, or Ps1 almost ALWAYS. There is no reason to use 7 starters when Castle Siege and Lylat are never chosen.

Also, you aren't even going so why do you care lmao?

ROFL BPC is so predictable omgggg

Next time BPC you should try defying expectations as a way of furthering your goals. Cause Idunno if you've noticed but rants like that haven't gotten you anywhere

I love how that seems like an attack on you, but really it is NOT, it's just a statement of fact.

Edit: Yay no Picto!!!

Lolololol.

Shut up

I agree heartily.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

*sigh*

GTAn ruleset is better, all I'll say. Then again, my go-to CPs are Norfair, Pictochat, Japes, and PS2, all of which are banned. At least I still have Cruise (read: my opponents have banned cruise, and now I have to figure out where the hell else to go).

 

[King Funk]

Wow this is exactly like the European stage list but with RC instead of Brinstar. I approve.

 

[sunshade]

Please ignore BPC and use only Rc or Brinstar because having both legal is really bad. It just means that Mk is guaranteed a win if you lose the first round because then you get Cp'd to the stage you didn't ban and get Mk'd.

You could have both legal and add a rule giving players fighting metaknight 2 stage bans. Then you cannot get checkmated and forced onto a gay counterpick when fighting metaknight while still allowing both stages to be usable in match-ups that are not broken by the stage.

I like the current stage list to be honest. I like the idea of Picto and Ps2 being legal as well, but lets be honest here...Who actually ever Cp's Ps2 when it's even legal? Picto the Sonic's and Dk's always Cp when YI is banned, but picto is more like Fd in a sense. Picto being like fd makes it Mk "Cp-able".

If adding stages which are not hard counterpicks that don't help metaknight is your intention then Jungle japes should also be legal.

Even when Pound 5 used 7 starters, the stages always chose were Smashville, Battlefield, or Ps1 almost ALWAYS. There is no reason to use 7 starters when Castle Siege and Lylat are never chosen.

A stage not being selected after stage striking does not mean it didn't make a difference and is not a reason to remove it from the starter list. The reason we have a starter list is to guarantee that the first and most important match of the set is played on a stage which does not give a major advantage to either player or character.

If you have stages like Lylat then you help balance the power struggle between aerial and grounded playstyles because Lylat will check the advantage given by Final destination. Castleseige is a middle of the road (leaning on grounded) stage that reduces the dominance of characters who excel on static stages and boosts those who play well on dynamic stages.

 

[PieDisliker]

I see no PS2, no Brinstar, no Pictochat. I think that's it. Seems like an alright ruleset for a compromise.

And... lol @ Yoshi Story instead of Yoshi's Island. Is there a reason for that?

 

[san.]

I like having more stages, but I guess we'll just have to deal with it...

Brinstar being banned because of MK is just dumb, though. I'd rather it be banned for no reason at all. Learn to beat MK on RC or Brinstar and ban the other one if you're gonna be butthurt over the stage.

 

[VSC.D-Torr]

I like having more stages, but I guess we'll just have to deal with it...

Brinstar being banned because of MK is just dumb, though. I'd rather it be banned for no reason at all. Learn to beat MK on RC or Brinstar and ban the other one if you're gonna be butthurt over the stage.

Manly post right here.

 

[t!MmY]

From my tournament experience, the first starter in any given match is usually Smashville followed by Battlefield. It's uncommon but I see Final Destination sometimes, and I think I've seen Lylat chosen maybe two times in the last three years. At MLG I saw pretty much the same starters as normal with maybe Meta Knight dittos on Halberd or something.

I'm in favor of these 11 stages. They're pretty universal for competitive rulesets around the world. Having Brinstar + Rainbow Cruise effectively takes away someone's more effective ban against Meta Knight, so dropping Brinstar makes sense.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Stagelists like this makes me think you're being hypocritic.
Why don't just ban everything but SV/FD/BF?

 

[CT Chia]

Brinstar and Rainbow are used much more outside of just MK abuse
Brinstar is in no way bannable, I don't get it
I'm really upset about it because now I can't CP DDDs there

 

[-Googs]

Brinstar and Rainbow are used much more outside of just MK abuse
Brinstar is in no way bannable, I don't get it
I'm really upset about it because now I can't CP DDDs there

all i see is womp womp womp womp womp

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I don't even care about Brinstar. It was bound to happen (mostly because people can't take good advice when they see it), so meh. But PS2? Really? Again, this stage is legal at german tournaments. Seriously. It's legal at most american tournaments. Now tell me this-what percentile of the attendance of Apex 2012 is likely to be either German or American? I'm willing to bet around 90-95%. And don't come here with the argument "nobody uses it". I use it! I can imagine I'm not the only one. And even if "nobody" uses it, people still have to learn it (this is a good thing) because being caught with your pants down usually sucks. There is no reason to ban the stage. Ever.

Also, I think it's worth mentioning that the Japanese don't adapt to us for the international audience. They aren't adding Brinstar, or Frigate, or Pictochat. They're saying "you want to play here? You play by our rules". Germans? Frenchies? They aren't adding stages for you-BBI had the same typical european stagelist, despite the fact that american lists had several more stages! So why the hell would you remove stages for them?
Pictochat makes sense; *****ing about that randomized bull**** is perfectly reasonable (seriously, what was the BBRRC thinking?) and I can imagine some people would not have come because of that. But that's never been legal in AN. And there's quite a difference between that and PS2.

 

[EPsilon933]

I like Budget Player Cadet_'s dedication

 

[clowsui]

@BPC there are not many people who CP PS2, i've hosted a few tournies in the MW with it on and for the most part the people who do CP PS2 are the ones who have practiced on it

 

[sunshade]

@BPC there are not many people who CP PS2, i've hosted a few tournies in the MW with it on and for the most part the people who do CP PS2 are the ones who have practiced on it

So you're saying that because a stage does not cause problems we should ban it?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

@BPC there are not many people who CP PS2, i've hosted a few tournies in the MW with it on and for the most part the people who do CP PS2 are the ones who have practiced on it

Yeah, that's basically who's getting screwed here-the people who took the time to learn how the stage works. Even if there aren't many people... Well, there aren't many people who use Yoshi, Ganon, or Zelda.

 

[CT Chia]

all i see is womp womp womp womp womp

I have no idea what this means :/

 

[Keitaro]

People keep saying "this stage has no reason to be banned" or "this stage is ****ing horrible" without much reasoning behind it.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

People keep saying "this stage has no reason to be banned" or "this stage is ****ing horrible" without much reasoning behind it.

You want reasoning?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=285744
http://gametheorybootcamp.blogspot.com/2010/12/arguing-against-subjectivity-crafting.html
And yet another thread that goes even more into depth about Pokemon Stadium 2 that I can't find for some reason.

Now, the other side really doesn't have reasoning behind it beyond "this stage is ****ing horrible".

 

[KageMurphy]

I'm a fan of the stage list provided by the Brawl Ruleset Committee but I mean, if it helps bring in International attendance then I can understand some alterations, certainly the last Apex provided plenty of thrills with International players.

 

[clowsui]

So you're saying that because a stage does not cause problems we should ban it?

Don't jump to conclusions. I provided feedback to a question that BPC asked.

Yeah, that's basically who's getting screwed here-the people who took the time to learn how the stage works. Even if there aren't many people... Well, there aren't many people who use Yoshi, Ganon, or Zelda.

I don't think we really create rulesets that cater to those characters though (those being the keyword, lol...we definitely cater rulesets around not banning MK but that's another story and should reflect how I feel about many issues ;p), so the analogy isn't apt.

 

[Keitaro]

You want reasoning?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=285744
http://gametheorybootcamp.blogspot.com/2010/12/arguing-against-subjectivity-crafting.html
And yet another thread that goes even more into depth about Pokemon Stadium 2 that I can't find for some reason.

Now, the other side really doesn't have reasoning behind it beyond "this stage is ****ing horrible".

This is actually pretty good.

All thats left is for something like this being made in favor or not in favor of Pictochat.

Regardless I don't even think reasoning will matter as much as solid opinions in this thread. I was just stating that people were stating what stages they think should be on or not be on without really decent reasoning.

I'm a fan of the stage list provided by the Brawl Ruleset Committee but I mean, if it helps bring in International attendance then I can understand some alterations, certainly the last Apex provided plenty of thrills with International players.

Apex 2010 had the most hype finals of Brawl I've ever seen in my life.

If whether international players will come or not depends on the stage list then its understandable to change it. Otherwise I don't see much of a reason to do so atm since the BBRRC stage list is similar to Europe's and the Japanese came last time to a stage list with more stages than chosen for this Apex.

 

[sunshade]

People keep saying "this stage has no reason to be banned" or "this stage is ****ing horrible" without much reasoning behind it.

How do you give reasoning for why a stage (that has nothing wrong with it) should not be banned other than saying "this stage has no reason to be banned"?

Imagine yourself in a world where battlefield is banned. There has been no reasons given for why its banned. You say thats silly and it should be legal. You are then laughed at because you are BPC (a shocking twist of fate) and people proceed to ignore you after saying you need to give reasons why battlefield should be legal other than "there is nothing wrong with it".

Stages are inherently presumed legal because its nearly impossible to prove a stage legal in the same way its nearly impossible to prove yourself innocent of a crime if you are presumed guilty.

 

[Keitaro]

How do you give reasoning for why a stage (that has nothing wrong with it) should not be banned other than saying "this stage has no reason to be banned"?

Imagine yourself in a world where battlefield is banned. There has been no reasons given for why its banned. You say thats silly and it should be legal. You are then laughed at because you are BPC (a shocking twist of fate) and people proceed to ignore you after saying you need to give reasons why battlefield should be legal other than "there is nothing wrong with it".

Stages are inherently presumed legal because its nearly impossible to prove a stage legal in the same way its nearly impossible to prove yourself innocent of a crime if you are presumed guilty.

Thing is, the stages being discussed (Brinstar, PS2, Picto) are stages that are legal by many and banned by many. These aren't stages like Battlefield where everyone has on or Hannebow which no one has on.

If those stages were argued to be opposite of what they are (Battlefield for banned, Hannebow for legal) then there's almost no way to argue that opinion since they are presumed legal and illegal respectively by just about everyone.

But these 3 stages are clearly up for discussion as people already:

• Are happy about Brinstar being off although its on everywhere in the US
• Seem to be 50/50 on Picto
• Are saying PS2 should be on after years of it being off

Basically what I'm trying to say is all 3 of these stages could be easily argued to be on or off imo.

 

[Alex Strife]

bottom line is im keeping the stage for apex 2012.

im in support for the bbrc and i think this is better for all players coming from the world.

i thank peoples support and feelings but you guys are taking it to a level even i dont approve of.


Picto i just feel is very random
PS2 is a stage i feel can take control out of players hands
Brinstar is an extreme stage


I originally had the idea for a ruleset not for Intl players but a ruleset based on what the game is about...platforms and spacing.

I also wanted to remove "random" things from happening ( pictos random hazzards, Brinstars lava and Ps2 Air making players lose control and its other hazzards)

That was my intention. I wanted to showcase that at this tournament

Then I read this thread and I have people arguing and borderline *****ing ( not all of u just one person who really went out of his way to annoy me despite me telling him to relax )

@ppl who were respectful - I thank everyone for their opinions. As a forum I cannot tell you what not to say nor do i expect 100% of u to like this. I know this will not affect attendance so i love the support.

I know for some there will be nitpicking at my response but take it as it is.

 

[Keitaro]

Overall, the stagelist you have chosen is still a good one Alex.

 

[Alex Strife]

I know it is and I know people are debating for debating sake...which is fine...what Idont like is being called a backstabber when I have went out of my way for this community and the ppl in it. I was extremely taken back by that at first but I let it go cause I realize some people do not know how to talk properly

@keit : my frustration was not aimed at you...like I said we all have different opinions and debating is fun as long as its not taken to a point of namecalling.

 

[sunshade]

Thing is, the stages being discussed (Brinstar, PS2, Picto) are stages that are legal by many and banned by many. These aren't stages like Battlefield where everyone has on or Hannebow which no one has on.

If those stages were argued to be opposite of what they are (Battlefield for banned, Hannebow for legal) then there's almost no way to argue that opinion since they are presumed legal and illegal respectively by just about everyone.

But these 3 stages are clearly up for discussion as people already:

• Are happy about Brinstar being off although its on everywhere in the US
• Seem to be 50/50 on Picto
• Are saying PS2 should be on after years of it being off

Basically what I'm trying to say is all 3 of these stages could be easily argued to be on or off imo.

You seem to have missed the point I was trying to make (probably my fault). I was trying to illustrate that all stages are legal until proven banned and that it is impossible to prove a stage legal.

Proving pokemon stadium 2 legal is like proving battlefield legal. You can only say "there is nothing wrong with it" and if people say "there are things wrong with it" and then don't state what those are there is nothing you can say other than "you are wrong. Needless to say that does not make for a compelling argument and it does not make any progress.

Hannenbow was assumed legal at the start of brawl but we created a reason for its banning. Said reason being circle stall.

Brinstar was assumed legal but we have recently tried create a reason to ban it. the proposed reason being over centralization. This is debatable because many feel the issue to be metaknight not the stage and that is why brinstar's legality is dependent on the TO/area.

Battlefeild was assumed legal and there was no reason to ban it so it stayed legal.

Pokemon stadium 2 was assumed banned (see the problem?) and when people said it should be legal there was nothing they could say other than "its fine".

Does it make sense what I am saying now?