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Apex 2012 Ruleset Discussion

CT Chia

CT Chia

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I really wouldn't call PS2 or Brinstar random, that makes no sense. By picking PS2 you are aware of all the transformations, and there is fair warning of each transformation before it happens, same as PS1. PS2 is just as "random" as PS1. You also do not lose control of your character in the wind, simply that control is modified and it can benefit some characters while it hurts others (definition of a counterpick?). Players are also fully aware of Brinstar's lava in the game as they pick and play on the stage, and you can tell when it's about to rise. This is a stage that also really hasn't changed much since Melee, and it's still on the recommended MBR ruleset. If your argument for these stages being taken off is the randomness of the stage (I can't say this as much about Picto, more so for PS2 and Brinstar), I personally believe that Yoshi's is more random, as there is no warning to when the support ghost will appear, and it's effects can be GAME CHANGING (more so than PS2 and Brinstar). Obviously though I think Yoshi's should be legal, I'm just showing how the "randomness" of Brinstar and PS2 shouldn't be why they are banned. I've never seen anyone argue Brinstar being random before, it is pretty ridiculous imo.

But would a stage list following what is recommended for the United States really stop international players from coming? I really can't see that personally. Brinstar was legal at Apex 2 and people came for that, no problem there. When Armada came to Genesis did we all decide for the tournament to be played on the PAL version to suit him and his friends? No. He got a copy of the NTSC version and practiced it. Just as much as I would not expect Japan or Europe to make any changes or sacrifices if I had decided to travel to one of their events, I don't think we should have to do the same in return. That's the point of traveling outside of where you are from, experiencing the game outside of your environment, trying new standards, meeting new players and their style of play, etc. And if a stage like Brinstar is really going to stop someone from another country stop from having a vacation in the US and getting to play one of your favorite games with tons of foreign players, then I think their priorities are completely out of line.
 
Keitaro

Keitaro

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@sunshade: I get what you're trying to say now.

@ Alex: I know its not aimed at me, all's good.
 
clowsui

clowsui

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On the note of Brinstar being random, Raziek has an excellent stage thread located here that demonstrates that Brinstar is hardly random and functions on a predictable timer, as does Frigate Orpheon (thread here).
 
Budget Player Cadet_

Budget Player Cadet_

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vVv ChiboSempai said:
I really wouldn't call PS2 or Brinstar random, that makes no sense. By picking PS2 you are aware of all the transformations, and there is fair warning of each transformation before it happens, same as PS1. PS2 is just as "random" as PS1. You also do not lose control of your character in the wind, simply that control is modified and it can benefit some characters while it hurts others (definition of a counterpick?). Players are also fully aware of Brinstar's lava in the game as they pick and play on the stage, and you can tell when it's about to rise. This is a stage that also really hasn't changed much since Melee, and it's still on the recommended MBR ruleset. If your argument for these stages being taken off is the randomness of the stage (I can't say this as much about Picto, more so for PS2 and Brinstar), I personally believe that Yoshi's is more random, as there is no warning to when the support ghost will appear, and it's effects can be GAME CHANGING (more so than PS2 and Brinstar). Obviously though I think Yoshi's should be legal, I'm just showing how the "randomness" of Brinstar and PS2 shouldn't be why they are banned. I've never seen anyone argue Brinstar being random before, it is pretty ridiculous imo.
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I tried explaining parts of this to Axel, but meh. His reasoning is that Air takes control over the player in a way he finds anticompetitive. I tried to prove that he was wrong, but he didn't care, and I'm done blaming people for that, because that's how this community works, scrubby as it is. He doesn't like the stage, and as the TO, the only way to really convince him otherwise is to get a majority o the playerbase to say, "Yeah, this should be legal". You couldn't get that for Brinstar, a stage many players rely on (be it to eat bans or to play on), you certainly aren't going to get it for a stage that, while legit, most players dislike and almost nobody ever counterpicks.

@Clownsui: a ruleset catering to those characters' mains would be a ruleset with them legal if a ruleset with PS2 legal is "catering" to the people who would counterpick it.
 
~ Gheb ~

~ Gheb ~

Life is just a party
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Budget Player Cadet_ said:
Already brought up the fact that Germany is a major international group coming to Apex and that they've had it legal for the last while, and will for the next while.
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We can live without the stage legal just as much and you're the last person we'd want as our spokesman as you don't represent what we stand for and you're probably not even attending.

:059:
 
Supreme Dirt

Supreme Dirt

King of the Railway
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Messages
7,336
Honestly, I'm just annoyed I lose my 3 favourite CPs. I mean, it's not like it's a hardship, I still have BF, RC, and Delfino. I also know I'm really, really biased because I prefer large stages.

Oh, and for those saying that all matches end up on FD/BF/SV first game, I've seen first games go to Delfino and Siege in my region in some more extreme MUs.

That's all I'll say, I try not to get caught up in rules discussions.
 
John12346

John12346

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I kinda like how Browny worded it in Lucario IRC yesterday.

There's not much wrong with MK(outside of the obvious stuff), and there's not much wrong with RC and Brinstar as stages, but MK+ RC/Brin is AIDS.
 
Alex Strife

Alex Strife

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BPC,

I thank you for your persistent but now it has become borderline harassment so please stop with the asking for PS2 to be legal.

I have told you many times it would not be legal and that I feel the stage changes things about the game that I feel, as a e-sports player, coach, tournament host and as a former college baseball player I felt took away from the basis of this game which, as I feel, is 1v1 platforming with its Air stage and the electric stage.

I am asking nicely cause at this point it is coming to a point where I feel you have done things I do not feel are healthy as a person ( spelling my name Axel, calling me a backstabber, etc ) nor do I see is so serious that you obsess over ( as you said to me your only hobby is Smash ).

Please leave this thread as you have said your peace and nothing will be changed for Apex 2012. As I stated many times Road to Apex will use BBRC rules for the US and Apex 2012 will be different.

Thank you for your time.
 
Budget Player Cadet_

Budget Player Cadet_

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Alex Strife said:
BPC,

I thank you for your persistent but now it has become borderline harassment so please stop with the asking for PS2 to be legal.
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I have, haven't you noticed? Now I'm just pretty much being a ****.

I have told you many times it would not be legal and that I feel the stage changes things about the game that I feel, as a e-sports player, coach, tournament host and as a former college baseball player I felt took away from the basis of this game which, as I feel, is 1v1 platforming with its Air stage and the electric stage.
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And I've told you that you're wrong, pointed to resources pointing out that you're wrong, pointed to tournament results pointing out that you are wrong, and no amount of claiming to be a genius will change this. It's preference-based. Oh well, nothing I can do. But yeah, see above.

I am asking nicely cause at this point it is coming to a point where I feel you have done things I do not feel are healthy as a person ( spelling my name Axel, calling me a backstabber, etc ) nor do I see is so serious that you obsess over ( as you said to me your only hobby is Smash ).
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The first one was a mistake (I thought it was Axel; I fail at reading and memorizing names), second one I apologized for.

Please leave this thread as you have said your peace and nothing will be changed for Apex 2012. As I stated many times Road to Apex will use BBRC rules for the US and Apex 2012 will be different.

Thank you for your time.
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You're welcome. Just a reminder though: you're still being irrational.

And yeah, I'm trying to stop posting here. I've stopped posting arguments, which is IMO an improvement. Trying to wean myself off stage discussion as it's obviously bad for my mental health.
 
Alex Strife

Alex Strife

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You can do that all you want but it wont change.

Leave the thread.

First and only warning.

I dont like being mean about it but its getting tiresome.

Welcome to real life where you dont get everything you want.
 
sunshade

sunshade

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I really fail to see how the ground moving or being floaty take away from the "basis of the game" when they only last 20 seconds each and only happen 2-3 times total per match. You will still have 5 minutes of play which is identical to PS1. During the air phase nobody can hit anyone anyways so its no different than PS1's rock or tree phase and the electric motor phase just becomes 20 seconds of players camping the center or ledge camping till its over (just like the rock or tree on PS1).

I look at PS2 and see two out of four phases that cause players to sit there and not attack or else risk getting ***** and I look at PS1 and see the exact same thing. If PS2 takes away from the "basis of the game" then at the very least don't be a hypocrite and ban PS1. Hell that would probably make the japanese players even happier its not like they have a year to learn how to play these stages or anything.
 
Alex Strife

Alex Strife

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I explained before about why I felt it should not be legal. If you want to talk on aim i'll explain further.

I said something along the lines of the the Air section takes away from what I feel is the basis of the game which is that it is a platforming fighter. Having a stage that limits you in regards to leaving you possibly helpless does not fit into what I would like to do as a person who believes in a certain definition of competitive play.
 
clowsui

clowsui

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sunshade said:
I really fail to see how the ground moving or being floaty take away from the "basis of the game" when they only last 20 seconds each and only happen 2-3 times total per match. You will still have 5 minutes of play which is identical to PS1. During the air phase nobody can hit anyone anyways so its no different than PS1's rock or tree phase and the electric motor phase just becomes 20 seconds of players camping the center or ledge camping till its over (just like the rock or tree on PS1).

I look at PS2 and see two out of four phases that cause players to sit there and not attack or else risk getting ***** and I look at PS1 and see the exact same thing. If PS2 takes away from the "basis of the game" then at the very least don't be a hypocrite and ban PS1. Hell that would probably make the japanese players even happier its not like they have a year to learn how to play these stages or anything.
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I don't think you're being very fair to Alex. While I disagree about his stance on PS2 and I think that it is a mark of hypocrisy in a sense, he has posted numerous times in this thread that he doesn't appreciate the amounts of posts on the matter cluttering the thread and that you should contact him by PM or IMs (though I don't think he wants to debate this any further lol). I think the best way to get Alex to agree with you about PS2 is to try and advocate for tournaments in his region (Atlantic North) to run PS2 a few times and report to him about the results. Until then, you and other Brawl Stage Discussion members should refrain from posting here.
 
sunshade

sunshade

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863
Alex Strife said:
I explained before about why I felt it should not be legal. If you want to talk on aim i'll explain further.

I said something along the lines of the the Air section takes away from what I feel is the basis of the game which is that it is a platforming fighter. Having a stage that limits you in regards to leaving you possibly helpless does not fit into what I would like to do as a person who believes in a certain definition of competitive play.
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I will do as you and clowsui as and discontinue posting in this thread about the stagelist but I hope you understand that I understood your reason for banning the stage. I then applied it to pokemon stadium 1 and the exact reason you used applies to it. If you really feel pokemon stadium 2 should not be legal for the reason you gave then you should be opposed to pokemon stadium 1 and you should also ban rainbow cruise.

Out of curiosity what is the point of a ruleset "discussion" thread if you simply tell everyone who has a different opinion to stop posting?
 
Punishment Divine

Punishment Divine

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What I'm worried about is that this actually just gives you less options against MK in the long run, particularly in sets which are longer than 2/3. I also don't appreciate the fact that this kind of ruleset is really geared toward nerfing MK. Let's face it, if MK didn't exist then Wario and GnW would be the next biggest threats on Brinstar and it would generally be a good place to take certain characters in certain matchups (i.e. Rob vs. DDD, anyone vs. Peach, Ness vs. a lot of chars).

IMO Brinstar is fine. Taking it away leaves characters like GnW, Wario, and others at a disadvantage, while given characters like Diddy, Falco, Olimar, etc. a stronger advantage. While this is not necessarily a bad change, it is certainly a change that needs to be taken into consideration.

Also, while we can tote that MK is an autowin on Brinstar, let's look at some anecdotal evidence since that seems to be what most people base arguments on in this game. Gnes (Hi Gnes! =D) has beaten countless MKs on Brinstar, which includes elite MKs like Tyrant, and has shown a true mastery of the stage. Recently Falcos have been performing exceptionally well on RC, so they can simply ban Brinstar if they wish and play on RC, which honestly isn't too terrible for Falco.

Taking MK's power on Brinstar into consideration, I would also like to point out that in a 2/3 set, MK will more than likely still have the tools to gay you, while other chars would even TAKE MK to a stage like Brinstar. I, when I play Wario, don't mind at all if MK takes me to Brinstar, and I know GnW is fully capable of fighting the bat there as well. With this current stagelist, MK is still ****ing you over with Frigate, Delfino, RC, or any other stage MK's like to take certain matchups (GnW to FD for example) while still allowing him to ban any stage which is simply his worst for a matchup (Yoshi's for Snake, FD for Marth and DDD, etc).

Though I used to appreciate the more conservative stagelists more, I've sort of grown to like stagelists similar to the one sketched by the BBR. However, since less stages actually benefits Marth, who I will hopefully be going full speed at this point, go ahead and limit the stages. I'm always with you Alex, APEX is always a blast, and I'm sure we'll get numbers regardless. However, that's my piece at 6:30 in the morning.
 
Supreme Dirt

Supreme Dirt

King of the Railway
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Lobos said:
Brinstar ban'd!?!?!? I MAD!!!!!!!
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Look at the bright side. Sure you don't have it for MUs where you really need it, but at least MK can't take you there.

Even though, y'know, I'm confident CPing MK to RC myself. Frigate is what I'm banning.
 
S

Slashy

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Umm I have a compromise for BPC and all those upset with stage bans and Metaknight



With Brawl+ dead, I feel that Brawl Minus should be given as much attention as Project:M, and more attention than Smash 64 as a side event. BPC is the leader behind the project, and he could easily craft the appropriate ruleset for this event.
 
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