Ally: Snake is not the second best character. What?

[solecalibur]

Japan and Mexico think he is. =0


Diddy in the only one who can place 2nd if not Snake atm.

There tier list is very primitive if you notice some of there lower rankings aren't even explored yet

 

[Niko_K]

If you guys knew Elliot personally you'd know he knows MK is broken and would like to have an easier time stealing everyones money.

 

[LooftWaffles]

Tornado is the true number 2 on the tier list.

The crutch of scrubby MKs, completely ignored by Ally

 

[M@v]

Can we just rename the tierlist "Effectiveness vs mk list?"

Face it thats all we are debating about over the #2 character.

 

[LooftWaffles]

Can we just rename the tierlist "Effectiveness vs mk list?"

Face it thats all we are debating about over the #2 character.

Agreed.

Ive always felt that if the tier list just placed MK in his own tier, and the rest was modeled as if he did not exist, that Marth would be number one. Or 2 as it may be.

 

[Palpi]

All of the chars after MK are pretty close imo.

 

[Wulfy07]

The two characters who'd be questionably higher then Snake would be Falco and Diddy for obvious reasons. Oh and Falco>Diddy. Soooooooooooooo:

1.Mk
2.Falco
3.Diddy
4.Snake
5.Marth
6.Ics
7.Dedede

Falco gives Diddy a hella hard time with Cg spike, Laser annoyance, spacings from Iap (Diddy doesn't have much options to beat this) and abilitiy to rack up damage quickly. Diddy can't even Cp his best stage FD on Falco because that's Falco's best stage. And Japes with Falco is auto win.

As of this moment, I think:
Diddy Kong's meta game is virtually peaked.
Snake's meta game has peaked.
Falco's meta game is still developing since he still has many surprising options. The thing that deters people from him are:
Less than average kill potential
An annoyingly precise recovery.
These two things give him a somewhat sharper than normal learning curve, but he still shows promise of developing.
Marth is also still developing. I don't know much, but I do see his placement going up with the future possible changes.

Right now, the order should probably resemble:
Meta Knight
Snake
Diddy Kong
Falco
Marth
Wario
Dedede
Ice Climbers
Pikachu

However, I find that the list will probably ulitmately resemble something like:
Meta Knight
Falco
Snake
Diddy Kong
Marth
Wario
Ice Climbers
Dedede
Pikachu

I realize I main Falco and this might cause a slight bias, but there are two major issues I have with the idea that Diddy is above Falco or Snake:
1. No matter what anyone tells me, Falco should **** Diddy Kong. For everything Diddy could do, Falco can counter and simply outcamp Diddy if he does nothing.
2. Snake doesn't need to camp. His massive explosive options can give him greater ground control than the bananas, and still, the bananas can be turned to Snake's control by picking them up. Then, Snake has field presence and Diddy is easily limited. From there, Snake's overwhelming killing potential wins out.

However, the order doesn't greatly matter for these characters (except that S tier should end with Marth and Wario never belonged in the S tier to start with...[/flamable comment]) because when the "age of brawl" comes to a close, these characters will most likely be the only ones deemed "tournament viable" with a few minor exceptions. For example, Dedede deserves the place but might be less viable than the list indicates.

Still, I would like to know who Ally meant in particular.

 

[MRDSBOY]

Snake is THE worst character. EVER.

 

[Jo0]

Is it wrong that this thread reminds me of

this thread : http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=256070

and in that thread there's

this video : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGh4ZU4H5Hk

 

[megajosh2]

Is it wrong that this thread reminds me of

this thread : http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=256070

and in that thread there's

this video : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGh4ZU4H5Hk

This thread and the one you linked makes me hate competitive Brawl so much.

 

[gm jack]

However, the order doesn't greatly matter for these characters (except that S tier should end with Marth and Wario never belonged in the S tier to start with...[/flamable comment]).

What makes you think Wario isn't S tier? His only disadvantages (nothing close to a counter) are Marth, Peach and possibly MK. But he is flexible, has solid options, and very importantly, can excel on CP stages. This means that 1)it is hard to CP him for him having a hard time on the stage and 2)he can turn matchups into his favour on his CP. DMG makes the Snake matchup look like a joke on Brinstar.

This thread and the one you linked makes me hate competitive Brawl so much.

They are right though. Unless you truly excel with a lower character, a top tier is the best option. They are there because they have the most and/or best options. A Low tier may have one or two gimmicks to catch out people not familiar with the match up. After that, you can get shut down due to the mature of brawl, which is heavily match up dependent. Competative means you play to win. SOme matches are won or lost on character select screen. If you want to prove it wrong, start winning with every character and show that character does not limit your chances of winning. Until then, accept that he is entirely right.

Pick a top tier if you want to do well. Unless you beast it and win with lower tiers (not many people do), you gain no points for trying hard. Make your life easy and do better by not sandbagging the character select screen.

 

[Underload]

I didn't drop Snake, and when I win P4. cry.

Yup yup yup. Make what you want of it.

 

[Deleted member]

I agree with Ally. Diddy is better. Probably better than MK too. The diddy players haven't figured out how to abuse his amazing shield yet. Diddy's shield can't be shieldstabbed with good shield angling even by broken things like tornado and his shield is at 1%. He's the only one with the special shield iirc.

 

[demonictoonlink]

I agree with Ally. Diddy is better. Probably better than MK too. The diddy players haven't figured out how to abuse his amazing shield yet. Diddy's shield can't be shieldstabbed with good shield angling even by broken things like tornado and his shield is at 1%. He's the only one with the special shield iirc.

I'm sorry but I haven't heard of this. Could you link me to a thread about it or something? Why is his shield different?

 

[Masky]

Diddy's shield can't be shieldstabbed with good shield angling even by broken things like tornado and his shield is at 1%. He's the only one with the special shield iirc.

...wouldn't his shield just break then in that situation?

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

hella biased stuff

How has Diddy's metagame peaked?

 

[VodkaHaze]

How has Diddy's metagame peaked?

Maybe because of hacks? Hahaha.

 

[Nitrix]

...wouldn't his shield just break then in that situation?

Umbreon is talking about shield poking, not breaking. So at 1% his shield would still stand for that 1% before it depleats and Diddy would not take any damage until it runs out


at least thats what I think its about

 

[SGF rocker]

Wario will remain top 5. He has a few bad matchups but he excels on most staged and his air game is top notch.

 

[napZzz]

I agree with Ally. Diddy is better. Probably better than MK too. The diddy players haven't figured out how to abuse his amazing shield yet. Diddy's shield can't be shieldstabbed with good shield angling even by broken things like tornado and his shield is at 1%. He's the only one with the special shield iirc.

diddys probably the 2nd best char. right now but I wouldn't go as far to saying that he's better than mk. HE still has bad matchups and other weakness's, unlike mk. :/

 

[Nic64]

Diddy isn't better than MK/won't be IMO, but Snake I do think he's better than. He has much more diverse options in most situations, Snake can get an assload of damage in for one good read or prediction but he takes it back almost as badly or worse vs some character with how you can read him from the air or on the ledge

 

[DMG]

Diddy is not better than MK at least. Snake, it's debatable and you could argue reasonably that he is better, but IDK.

What people haven't abused yet is charging directly at Diddy while catching his banana proficiently. If people could rush down Diddy and have no fear of directly getting hit by a banana, then a lot of his game becomes watered down. Without fear of failure and successful anti options, Diddy now has to work harder to get openings/exploit them as people will have much fewer ones.

Of course, most of this is theoretical mumbo jumbo, but I think if applied IRL it would take Diddy down a little.

 

[Nic64]

He could just choose to not throw the banana at you, you have two options if you rush him, you can attack or grab. It is true that a lot of anti-Diddy metagame needs to be developed, people know how to fight Snake better. But I also think Snake's repertoire has also been more fully explored, Snake has hit the ceiling while Diddy still has much unseen potential.

 

[orange/xd]

Diddy will never be better than Meta Knight.

 

[Kewkky]

Diddy is not better than MK at least. Snake, it's debatable and you could argue reasonably that he is better, but IDK.

What people haven't abused yet is charging directly at Diddy while catching his banana proficiently. If people could rush down Diddy and have no fear of directly getting hit by a banana, then a lot of his game becomes watered down. Without fear of failure and successful anti options, Diddy now has to work harder to get openings/exploit them as people will have much fewer ones.

Of course, most of this is theoretical mumbo jumbo, but I think if applied IRL it would take Diddy down a little.

Yes, rush him down, force him to throw his bananas. Obviously not blind rushing, that'll get you owned, but SMART rushing, run up to him and bait a reaction by scaring HIM into doing something that you can punish. Hell, MK has an invincible upB that can beat out anything Diddy can throw at him, so even shielding Diddy's approaches and predicting his reactions would mean free damage. Dair camping MKs can't abuse this cuz they're always in the air and dsmash/fsmash whenever they land, which you shouldn't do due to Diddy's shield and how he can punish you for it easily with a banana during MK's endlag on the ground. Hell, MK has lots of options, and people are just choosing the ones that are good but not good enough (air planking).

 

[OverLade]

Diddy is not better than MK at least. Snake, it's debatable and you could argue reasonably that he is better, but IDK.

What people haven't abused yet is charging directly at Diddy while catching his banana proficiently. If people could rush down Diddy and have no fear of directly getting hit by a banana, then a lot of his game becomes watered down. Without fear of failure and successful anti options, Diddy now has to work harder to get openings/exploit them as people will have much fewer ones.

Of course, most of this is theoretical mumbo jumbo, but I think if applied IRL it would take Diddy down a little.

I think at least Z and A catching Diddy's bananas is applicable, but quite often I catch Diddy's banana peels while dash attacking with Snake (making it a HELLA SAFE approach if you cancel it into an Usmash).

I think I'd like to also add that I think Diddy beats Falco 60-40. Falco's game is too linear and Falco can be hit by a banana out of just about anything. I think Snake beats Diddy 60-40 however. Diddy is easy to tech chase, snake outpressures him, as well as slightly outcamps him, and lives twice as long.

As far as how good the characters are, I think Snake and Diddy are close, just Snake has higher risk reward for everything and lives longer. Diddy gets punished less for mistakes and Snake does more damage for reading opponents mistakes.

 

[Pierce7d]

Diddy is the best character in the game.

He has the safest options of the entire cast, and a method of grabbing while holding an item that outranges pretty much everything and can universally punish every non-projectile in the game. He does NOT have bad MUs. He DOES lose on some stages to Snake and MK to be fair, but solidly WINS against MK 6-4 on neutrals.

More importantly, he forces you to pick up a banana if you want to safely land in certain positions, and generally, you do not want to be holding a banana vs. Diddy Kong (his options to fight bananas are by far the best in the game).

Diddy's metagame still has room for growth. I personally know several tricks that no other Diddy besides ADHD knows (and he doesn't use everything I tell him, I see amazing space for growth in his game). Also, Diddy players don't seem to realize how good their Dtilt is, or how to make crawling more applicable. Utilt and Usmash recently got more development (and of course there's always the single naner lock, lulz).

The ability to limit the places where you can STAND is an unparalled brokeness in this game. If you couldn't slip on bananas while in shielding then I could give you room for argument but seriously . . .

I'm not going to go into Diddy 101 right now, but I will say that Snake is a super limited character. On the ground, he can only attack forward. In the air, he can only attack backward. He can use explosions which limit options, but in the end, precise spacing overcomes this pretty hard. Most good characters have very solid answers to Snake's Nair. If you have good spacing and timing, you can work around explosions, and hit Snake. He does have the power to back up his claims, but every time Snake gets hit, his options get halved.

I think it's Diddy/MK (still trying to decide), Falco/Snake (it's pretty close), ICs/Marth/Wario, D3 is then there for shutting down the cast.

 

[smashkng]

Snake is better than Falco. Falco can't deal with planking, has trouble with killing, is light with mediocre recovery and has bad matchups unlike Snake.

Snake lives way longer than Diddy, and kills way earlier. Why do you say he's limited? He has incredible range in his tilts. Snake is not Ganon, he can hit, he has Grenades and he doesn't have to hit a lot to kill, as he deals lots of damage and his dthrow is a great tech-chasing for also a lot of damage. When you are heavy as hell and kills early, trade hits is a good idea.

Diddy isn't better than MK. Beating MK doesn't mean he's better. MK has easier time against A LOT more characters.

 

[phi1ny3]

lol how some people try so much for the bandwagon, they jump CLEAR over it.

 

[ice_cream_man]

I have a question, did a snake win Pound 4?

 

[Nic64]

Why do you say he's limited?

Break down all of his options in various situations. So many times where he has 1 or 2 options that don't even really work, he's much easier to predict than Diddy, and once you've hit him you can read him for a lot more reward too. Snake's limited options can easily erase his weight class advantage, you don't often see an MK or Diddy get taken advantage of for 80%+ at a time the way you see it happen to Snake players. At least if this ever happens with those characters it always seems to me to be from player fault, Snake you can just abuse his character to death in so many situations.

Diddy's not better than MK though, doesn't adapt to stages nearly as well and has a harder time vs random mid tiers.

 

[DMG]

Diddy having no bad matchups? I would disagree. I think Wario beats Diddy. Now if you consider 55:45 as even/not slight disadvantage, then it's debatable, but I think it could be 6:4 Wario's favor.

Also, not a significant problem for Diddy, but planking does take him down a bit. If your region has it banned, then obviously Diddy will fare better. Without anything done regarding planking, MK has a clear advantage on him and G&W gets a great shot at winning.

 

[Gnes]

Lots of people seem to think they know alot about diddy...whatever...diddy is right where he belongs for now.

He isn't better than snake, but is pretty close.

Also Red, Diddy vs Falco is 55-45 falcos advantage...
Diddy vs Wario should be is at least 55-45 wario.

 

[DMG]

Yeah, at best, even for Diddy. Him having the advantage over Falco, certainly to the degree of 6:4, doesn't seem realistic (at least the way things look currently, maybe Halberd is thinking more long term/potential).

 

[AlphaZealot]

Agrees with Gnes.

Mk
Snake
Diddy/Falco
Wario

Diddy is not as good as you are saying Peirce. If you actually pick up Diddy and play and see how stupid some match ups are and how long they take to learn you wouldn't be thinking he is the best (I would bet that if you played Diddy every day for the entire year, you would still not be able to beat Candy at his current level of play).

ADHD makes things look a lot easier then they actually are.

 

[DMG]

I played ADHD at Genesis and it was fun. He ***** me in Diddy dittos lmao but I got him back when I went Wario

 

[Pierce7d]

Ooh, I'm not gonna stunt DMG, I did forget Wario. I feel like Peach does have some stuff going for her there, but Diddy mostly focusing on Fair, Dtilt, Utilt will find themselves playing an easier MU if they're not trying to focus too much on Nanas. Wario is something else though. Hard as hell to kill with mobility and power to back it up. I'll have to talk with ADHD about that later. I've also considered Wario a Diddy counter in the past, and simply haven't seen the MU recently to give it much thought. We'll hopefully get a chance to talk about this more in depth later.

This is why I love Brawl so much though. People swear this game isn't balanced, but it's really just MK. Diddy isn't unstoppable by all characters (YET! I'm still working on it.) Snake, Diddy, and Falco all have counters (and all fight MK potently, oh, and Wario, Lucario, and ICs too I guess) which leaves a lot of room for a lot of B tier characters to see play as well. You can't main B-tier and expect anything good out of it, but counter-picking in this game is fun and interesting.

 

[ADHD]

Lots of people seem to think they know alot about diddy...whatever...diddy is right where he belongs for now.

He isn't better than snake, but is pretty close.

Also Red, Diddy vs Falco is 55-45 falcos advantage...
Diddy vs Wario should be is at least 55-45 wario.

This guy knows what he's talking about!

 

[Pierce7d]

I think Diddy vs. Snake is like Marth vs. Snake:

there is a low margin of error, so it looks like Snake wins, when he actually doesn't. This is how I feel about quite a few of Snake's MUs, including Falco and MK. Have you ever attempted to time out a Snake before AZ?

And I have already started on picking up Diddy. I figure the next way to help ADHD increase his skill is to fully learn all his characters limits, so I know the full toolset I'm working with. I know how hard he is. I do not take technical difficulty into account when considering MUs (in Brawl).

I can also see Falco beating Diddy. I can honestly see Falco being NO.1 in the game, but all the Falco players have to keep stepping it up.

I can never see Snake as NO.1. Even ICs crossed my mind for a week, but never Snake.

 

[AvaricePanda]

Diddy does really well against top-tiers, in my opinion, but loses to random mid-tiers rofl. He doesn't have any extreme advantages against anyone. IMO his only significant disadvantages are Luigi and Peach. Wario, Snake and maybe Falco and Jigglypuff are slight disadvantages, whereas everything else is basically even or in his favor. But I can't think of any match-ups he beats over 65:35--the people he does beat that bad are the characters who are already super unviable anyway (Ganondorf).

Also, Diddy's good, but the anti-banana game still has a while to go. Diddy's own banana game still has a way to go as well as the rest of his game, but how most people deal with bananas, even at high levels of play, is lulzy.

There's no way Diddy's better than MK. MK does better throughout the board, isn't as stage reliant (in certain match-ups, stages like RC, Japes, or Brinstar are just really bad), and has very solid wins on anyone mid-tier or lower, whereas Diddy just has normal or slight advantages and even match-ups.

Diddy seems a lot better on paper than he is in practice, in my opinion.