Ally: Snake is not the second best character. What?

[adumbrodeus]

very well then, with this in mind, D3 should be in between marth and wario. ISDA, u never actually gave a reason to put D3 under marth, the matchups that D3 gets ***** in are pretty legit, but D3 has chaingrab, can kill way earlier the marth, lives longer, has projectile, more range, a suicide move, better grab range, better character. Marth's only problem matchups are MK, D3 himself, and snake, everyone can be fought without a secondary (even the problem matchups can be fought) however DDD has 2 many things going for him that marth doesnt.

aside from matchups, wario also kills well, has an easier time getting on stage, lives rediculously long as well, ***** sheilds, is faster than DDD, more aproach options than DDD, yeah... better character indeed

Randomly saying pros for a character with no basis for comparison, hey LET ME TRY THAT!


Ganondorf has many things going for him that DDD doesn't, ridiculous damage output both with single attacks and his strings, a forward b that goes through shield, a strong techchasing game, a recovery that has a hitbox pretty much the entire time, a uair that can easily gimp people.


You see what I did there?


Saying only pros of a character is irrelevant because pros might not be relevant in actual MUs for a variety of reasons or another character's pros might be more effective. Pros only become relevant as they effect MUs.

 

[<π]

Yeah that's pretty fun.

 

[HRNUT (Honey Roasted)]

Actually that's a terrible example because Gnes 2 stocked HRNUT twice in tournament. Ultimate razer however beat Gnes, so it's nothing against snake.

And Ally I just wanna point out that you're saying Snake isn't that good based on your experience, but you play play as gay as many other snake players. You could probably play a lot gayer in certain matchups. Brawl is boring, but concerning optimal style I think Snake is still 2nd best on the whole right now.

whoa i did not get two stocked twice lol, and i agree with ally i dont think snake is the second best character he can get gayed to hard by alot of dumb crap, i think diddy may have a slight edge and even Ice climbers...just stating my opinion

 

[OverLade]

whoa i did not get two stocked twice lol, and i agree with ally i dont think snake is the second best character he can get gayed to hard by alot of dumb crap, i think diddy may have a slight edge and even Ice climbers...just stating my opinion

Hurr hurr hurr namesearch?

Yeah my B it's just what I heard. Not trying to discredit the most underrated snake in the nation lol.

 

[CO18]

1st match was last hit iirc.

 

[Pierce7d]

Marth is better than D3. His mobility and lack of blind spots make him better. Also, everything D3 does besides grab, Utilt, and Dtilt, can easily be powershielded on reaction. D3 also takes a LOT of damage when finally knocked off the stage.

Marth's worse MUs are MK, R.O.B., and DK. D3, Snake, and Wolf are even IMO.

 

[Sasha]

Snake is not the second best character. MK is.

Diddy > MK. Get at me.

 

[Wulfy07]

The top four characters are:
MK, Snake, Falco, Diddy <---added to emphasize the Falco>Diddy Kong point. No, I'm kidding, but in all seriousness, Diddy is being really overhyped right now and though he might get a higher placement in a day to day tier list, it will be a little while before that calms down and the metagame catches up to more accurately reflect character potential and better character placement. I believe Falco is better than Diddy and while I personally think bother are higher than Snake, it will still take time for this to really be settled.
Then
Wario, Marth, Dedede, Ice Climbers and then other A tier characters. <---Added to agree Marth>D3

 

[Z'zgashi]

IMO the top players are

1. Meta Knight
2. Snake
3. Marth
4. Falco
5. Mr. Game & Watch
6. Wario

I think game and watch should get a little credit to. Sure he's not second or third but he's pretty darn good. Game and watch has some extremely dominate MUs too (ex. Rob). After that I'd go

7. King Dedede
8. Diddy Kong
9. Zero Suit Samus
10. Olimar
11. R.O.B.
12. Ice Climbers

I know u are all thinking whoa what is zss doing so high! And why r ic so low! Well I think that zss has a lot of untaped potential along with great moves and speed. Ic although they r good, the slightest mistake on their part could mean a lost life or even the game. They seem a little high up in the s tier

 

[HRNUT (Honey Roasted)]

Marth is better than D3. His mobility and lack of blind spots make him better. Also, everything D3 does besides grab, Utilt, and Dtilt, can easily be powershielded on reaction. D3 also takes a LOT of damage when finally knocked off the stage.

Marth's worse MUs are MK, R.O.B., and DK. D3, Snake, and Wolf are even IMO.

obviously you guys haven't seen co18's d3 when he's on his A game, like i know d3 has several bad matches where marth only truly has three hard matchups, those are mk, d3, and a mad gay super campy rob player....snake dk are even, marth beats wolf.

The top four characters are:
MK, Snake, Falco, Diddy <---added to emphasize the Falco>Diddy Kong point. No, I'm kidding, but in all seriousness, Diddy is being really overhyped right now and though he might get a higher placement in a day to day tier list, it will be a little while before that calms down and the metagame catches up to more accurately reflect character potential and better character placement. I believe Falco is better than Diddy and while I personally think bother are higher than Snake, it will still take time for this to really be settled.
Then
Wario, Marth, Dedede, Ice Climbers and then other A tier characters. <---Added to agree Marth>D3

i don't think that falco is number 3 lol, he has some unwinnable matchups, where as wario, diddy, GW, doesn't have any matchups that they cannot win, thats just my personal opinion though

IMO the top players are

1. Meta Knight
2. Snake
3. Marth
4. Falco
5. Mr. Game & Watch
6. Wario

I think game and watch should get a little credit to. Sure he's not second or third but he's pretty darn good. Game and watch has some extremely dominate MUs too (ex. Rob). After that I'd go

7. King Dedede
8. Diddy Kong
9. Zero Suit Samus
10. Olimar
11. R.O.B.
12. Ice Climbers

I know u are all thinking whoa what is zss doing so high! And why r ic so low! Well I think that zss has a lot of untaped potential along with great moves and speed. Ic although they r good, the slightest mistake on their part could mean a lost life or even the game. They seem a little high up in the s tier

i disagree with marth being that high, he gets gayed too much especially since most tournaments comprise of 50% metaknight. If mk were banned i could see marth taking top 3 since all marth players will truly only have to master the marth/snake matchup and the d3/marth one.

i personally think that top 5 are

1. mk duh lol
2. diddy/snake/ICs
3. diddy/snake/ICs
4. diddy/snake/ICs
5. Lucario at 278 percent last stock with invulnerability frames nah i'd say its between D3/wario, falco, maybe maybe marth if he can overcome the torrent of mks

i also think TL will be up there once mk gets banned (i hope)

the problem with zss is that she's nothing if you just camp in your shield lol, i used to not understand that cuz i'd be aggressive but if you shield camp her she loses

 

[Master Raven]

MK
Snake
Diddy
Falco
Wario/ICs

Those are my top 5

 

[AlphaZealot]

This thread is hilarious. All of like 5-10 people in the whole country can make Diddy look close to playable and it took probably 5X the amount of work that MK's achieving similar success have done.

Diddy's know the weakness of Diddy Kong but we are going to remain silent and see if MK's (or rather M2K) can figure it out on their own (just like Diddy and every other character has been trying to figure out MK for well over a year).

 

[<π]

I don't falco is as high as a lot of people have him either, his lack of viable kill ops and lame recovery should kill it for him. He does do well agianst a bunch of top teirs I guess, but I feel like a lot of the mid teirs really expliot his weaknesses and take a lot from the advantages he has in either his camp game and/or his chain grab.


Diddy is good, better than falco. But he is not that good. He has glaring weakness people are flat out ignoring because of his strengths.

 

[Gnes]

1st match was last hit iirc.

Lylat cruise should not be a neutral

 

[OverLade]

Lylat cruise should not be a neutral

Didnt you guys have stage striking or w/e?

 

[Pierce7d]

obviously you guys haven't seen co18's d3 when he's on his A game, like i know d3 has several bad matches where marth only truly has three hard matchups, those are mk, d3, and a mad gay super campy rob player....snake dk are even, marth beats wolf.

i don't think that falco is number 3 lol, he has some unwinnable matchups, where as wario, diddy, GW, doesn't have any matchups that they cannot win, thats just my personal opinion though

Right, because I've never seen CO18 or played him at all . . . oh wait.

In fact, it was AFTER playing CO18 that I was fully persuaded that the MU is even and not D3's favor.

Falco has no unwinnables. Falco's have been beating ICs lately.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Wow I missed a lot being offline.

May I see a vid of a match of Falco defeating IC's?

 

[Chuee]

lame recovery

wat
Falco's recovery is actually really good ._.

 

[wowoduend]

IMO the top players are

1. Meta Knight
2. Snake
3. Marth
4. Falco
5. Mr. Game & Watch
6. Wario

I think game and watch should get a little credit to. Sure he's not second or third but he's pretty darn good. Game and watch has some extremely dominate MUs too (ex. Rob). After that I'd go

7. King Dedede
8. Diddy Kong
9. Zero Suit Samus
10. Olimar
11. R.O.B.
12. Ice Climbers

I know u are all thinking whoa what is zss doing so high! And why r ic so low! Well I think that zss has a lot of untaped potential along with great moves and speed. Ic although they r good, the slightest mistake on their part could mean a lost life or even the game. They seem a little high up in the s tier

I barely even see any Olimar players tbh :x

 

[HRNUT (Honey Roasted)]

Right, because I've never seen CO18 or played him at all . . . oh wait.

In fact, it was AFTER playing CO18 that I was fully persuaded that the MU is even and not D3's favor.

Falco has no unwinnables. Falco's have been beating ICs lately.

well i don't think CO has been on his A game lately he's been close but not there since he took like a month and a half off from brawl. I guarantee you though that that matchup is not even lol, its close but not even just like mk vs marth.

And please show me a good ic climbers that knows how to chaingrab losing to a falco....because yeah falco has a few really bad matchups imo, those difficult matchups just don't happen to appear in tounament as much but once he runs into them he really has a slim chance of winning if the person behind the character is competent

once again, i will just say it my opinion

 

[lonewolf537]

ally sure is arrogant, thinking he is the only reason snake is 2nd.

 

[Spin Dashie]

Well seeing as Ally is pretty much not on the same page as other Snake players.. maybe not even in the same library lol but is in fact pretty high when compared to other Snake players. Ally takes Snake to a whole other level.

 

[Karcist]

I hate how every top player seems to like to belittle their character just to make themselves look better when they win.

 

[AllyKnight]

ally sure is arrogant, thinking he is the only reason snake is 2nd.

I wonder if you read or you just say random stuff, I said I am the only reason that Snake is sooo high BECAUSE whenever there's a national, I am the only one placing in the top 7-8 with Snake. Arrogant.

 

[lonewolf537]

I wonder if you read or you just say random stuff, I said I am the only reason that Snake is sooo high BECAUSE whenever there's a national, I am the only one placing in the top 7-8 with Snake. Arrogant.

"top 7-8"


to the best of my knowledge, people dont normally take 8th in tourneys.


by the way, snake was 2nd BEFORE you started winning nationals.

 

[<π]

:/ there are two players hold 7th place. those two are the bottom of the "top 8" players.

 

[Pierce7d]

well i don't think CO has been on his A game lately he's been close but not there since he took like a month and a half off from brawl. I guarantee you though that that matchup is not even lol, its close but not even just like mk vs marth.

And please show me a good ic climbers that knows how to chaingrab losing to a falco....because yeah falco has a few really bad matchups imo, those difficult matchups just don't happen to appear in tounament as much but once he runs into them he really has a slim chance of winning if the person behind the character is competent

once again, i will just say it my opinion

I don't need to win or lose to CO18 to realize the tools of two characters. In fact, I already know D3 like the back of my hand, and yet since CO18 is a better player, he still beat me. It's even. There's not even a point of arguing an immeasurable 5 point difference, because honestly, I have over 9000x more data in that MU than like everyone else in the world, and could argue it either way.

Marth vs. MK is 65-35 MK's favor. Please don't let people deceive you. If you know the MU as MK, you WILL beat Marth. If it was close to even, there would be a LOT more talented Marth players knocking MKs out of bracket due to the nature of Marth alone. MK is by FAR Marth's worse MU.

Atomsk lost to Kid's ICs. I heard of other results, but I forgot them. If you are truly interested, please consult the Falco boards, as I'm sure they'll be aware of these results. Falco vs. ICs is pretty bad, I agree, but EVEN if that was an unwinnable, he has no others. I can beat most Pikachu's and Sheiks with my Falco, and have never lost to Kirby in that MU.

 

[ADHD]

Snake is the godliest character in the game.

 

[Keith_Da_Thief]

Snake' a terribly overrated char.

 

[<π]

nice over nine thousand plug.

I wanna play your falco with my sheik one day...
falco is a good character but since he has to mind game most of his kills that can become a problem if "your opponent is better than you" and doesn't fall into the typical fsmash mindgame stuff. Falco has a harder time killing than marth.
Falco is also very level dependent how good he is wildly swing from stage to stage.
Luckily falco does well against a lot of the top tiers since he can build damage and camp against them better, maybe that's why he is so over hyped.

I don't see falco top five, but thats just me.

 

[Pierce7d]

Why do people think Falco has a hard time killing? Usmash is a REASONABLE kill move, and Falco can wrack up a LOT of fast damage. Bair scores kills and gimps, and Fsmash kills EARLY.

Also, no one really does this, but Falco can force you to trade stocks in a lot of situations by commiting to suicide Dair or SideB, and this is broken if he's up a stock. Falco is also one of the safest characters in the game. Top three safest. Ftilt, Jab, Laser, and SideB are all relatively safe.

I will grant that Falco is less broken on some stages. My region has a very conservative stage list with Brinstar, Rainbow, and Frigate being the most controversial stages.

Wyatt, you are horribly biased, but I'm pretty sure you know that Snake isn't actually the best character in the game.

I can see myself coming down to Florida soon. We'll see.

 

[<π]

usmash is easy to avoid and easier to punish. Sheik's upsmash is a reasonable kill move too but because of range and start up time even her DACUS doesn't make sheik's kill game any more easy. (outside of grab releases)

Random, but I don't believe falco's upsmash is safe on sheild.

Bair I think is falco most reliable and diverse kill move, it's range isn't stealar but its knock back is really good and it comes out fast. with good DI though I don't really see it gimping anyone that doesn't have ridiculously high fall speeds unless you out right kill them.


And again Falco is amazing anyone who can chain mk into a kill is amazing. He racks damage well, decent edge gaurd game, amazing camp game. but he does have kill issues and his recover is very lack luster and easy to minipulate. I think once people start to understand the match up falco will see less and less play and less time in top 8

 

[Overswarm]

I agree with all that Pierce said. Falco's kill moves all leave him in a bad position if he misses though, and they're hard to hit with. That's pretty much his only weakness; if you can punish Falco tremendously, you can win the matchup by avoiding kill moves.

 

[Chuee]

Almost every ground kill move isn't safe on block.

 

[6Mizu]

Snake is the godliest character in the game.

ADHD that's biased. You can't say that because you lose to Ally. He's had a lot of Diddy prac.

That is unless you were jokin'.

 

[Gnes]

Snake is the godliest character in the game.

This guy knows what hes talking about

 

[AllyKnight]

ADHD is stupid. lol he was born like that, it's okay.

 

[Eddie G]

"top 7-8"


to the best of my knowledge, people dont normally take 8th in tourneys.


by the way, snake was 2nd BEFORE you started winning nationals.

Right, and the underdeveloped metagame of then surely matches today's. Ally's claims so far hold true because he's able to and has won/placed high in nationals consistently with Snake in the metagame of HERE AND NOW.

Stop posting like you're jealous, because that's all I see from your provocative mish-mash so far.

 

[OverLade]

Considering Falco's kill power, you have to keep in mind that as long as he's ahead he can basically force kill situations. Against some characters Falco could literally camp you up to 180 for an Usmash kill and stay safe almost the entire time.

 

[HRNUT (Honey Roasted)]

I don't need to win or lose to CO18 to realize the tools of two characters. In fact, I already know D3 like the back of my hand, and yet since CO18 is a better player, he still beat me. It's even. There's not even a point of arguing an immeasurable 5 point difference, because honestly, I have over 9000x more data in that MU than like everyone else in the world, and could argue it either way.

Marth vs. MK is 65-35 MK's favor. Please don't let people deceive you. If you know the MU as MK, you WILL beat Marth. If it was close to even, there would be a LOT more talented Marth players knocking MKs out of bracket due to the nature of Marth alone. MK is by FAR Marth's worse MU.

Atomsk lost to Kid's ICs. I heard of other results, but I forgot them. If you are truly interested, please consult the Falco boards, as I'm sure they'll be aware of these results. Falco vs. ICs is pretty bad, I agree, but EVEN if that was an unwinnable, he has no others. I can beat most Pikachu's and Sheiks with my Falco, and have never lost to Kirby in that MU.

im not decieved into thinking that marth mk is close, by close i mean 60-40 i don't think its that bad (i see 65-35 like its 70-30) lol, i think its stupid only if the mk super camps the entire match...but i will play the matchup more d3/marth i haven't done it in awhile but after watching a few matches of each characters i think its closer than i once thought, maybe even but its still an opinion...what do you think is second hardest next to mk?