Ally: Snake is not the second best character. What?

[DoonKoon]

I've been eavesdropping on this conversation:

Jokers Monthly - 1/10/10 - 43 entrants

1. Ally - MK
2. Lain - ICs/DDD
3. Domo - MK
4. Clel - MK/Marth
5. Zeton - Fox
5. Joker - Snake
7. Nicole - Peach
7. Affinity - MK

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=9280935#post9280935

With Ally using MK now, I wonder how much the gap between MK and Snake is going to grow...

that's my plan, I feel like im one of the only reason Snake is SOOOO high in the tier list. Time to change that.

But why change it in the first place? Seeing as your capable enough to win with Snake as it is...

Ally should play ganondorf.

Ally should use Ike, he nearly lost to one after all.

Everyone should use Jigglypuff.

Because Snake is not 2nd best character. that's why.

Are you trying to put diddy in second and ban metaknight?

Even without Ally Snake still has (in no order) Razer, Fatal, Infern, Candy, Erow, Joker, etc.

If anything Snake will still remain second but will be closer to the A rank characters while MK will have 4x the points.

diddy 2nd then? where would you put snake?

i agree snake should be #1

in this interview he said "3rd-4th or 5th best.", 3rd or 4th sounds about right to me.

there is no way in hell snake is better than meta knight

"JUDGE: Have you ever thought about dropping snake?

No lol, that'd be the end of Smash for me if it happens."

D:

So, what's your say on this? Do you agree with Ally that Snake isn't the 2nd best, but rather the 3rd/4th/ OR EVEN 5TH? Or do you think he should remain second?

I personally think Snake should remain second... because... well.. he's ****en good.

 

[smashkng]

Diddy is nowhere better than Snake, he has to deal 1 million damage before killing, and is easy to gimp.

 

[Kewkky]

Well, seems part of the community is split on Snake being lower than 2nd best. I'm from the "Snake is 2nd best" group... Yes, he gets easy to play against if you have loads of MU experience, but don't ALL characters get easy if you learn the MU completely?

Plus, what's the "Snake isn't 2nd best" people think that Diddy has over him? I'd like to be persuaded, so someone please write me something up. Try to include as much info as you can, and more than 2 GOOD reasons with detailed explanations on why Diddy is better than Snake (and don't bring up tourney results nor top players' placings).

 

[DarkKyanite]

hmm, IMO snake's still 2nd best
but MK just has too many options to go around with what snake has
not as many as MK against the rest of the cast but yea
MK needs to be ban lol

 

[Xiahou Dun]

If he wants to prove Snake isn't the Second Best shouldn't he play who he thinks is the Second Best in order to try and prove it? Playing MetaKnight seems an odd choice to prove this point.

 

[complexity1234]

If he wants to prove Snake isn't the Second Best shouldn't he play who he thinks is the Second Best in order to try and prove it? Playing MetaKnight seems an odd choice to prove this point.

exactly, playing mk doesnt make snake drop.
He should play 100% diddykong or wario or something.

 

[Rajam]

If Snake is not second best, who is then? Diddy? I don't think Diddy is better than Snake, has more bad matchups and bad stages than Snake... If somehow Snake isn't second, I can remotely see Wario or Marth being in that place, but that's very unlikely....

Snake is second best. No top or high tier has an easy match against him. Diddy, Falco, IC, Marth, G&W...
MK, Dedede, Wario and Olimar may have an advantage over Snake, but all these matchups are more even than disadvantages.

The same Ally has showed us the potential of Snake. If he wants to prove than Snake is not the second best, he should move to the characters which he thinks are better instead of moving to MK, and get the results...

 

[complexity1234]

If Snake is not second best, who is then? Diddy? I don't think Diddy is better than Snake, has more bad matchups and bad stages than Snake... If somehow Snake isn't second, I can remotely see Wario or Marth being in that place, but that's very unlikely....

Snake is second best. No top or high tier has an easy match against him. Diddy, Falco, IC, Marth, G&W...
MK, Dedede, Wario and Olimar may have an advantage over Snake, but all these matchups are more even than disadvantages.

The same Ally has showed us the potential of Snake. If he wants to prove than Snake is not the second best, he should move to the characters which he thinks are better instead of moving to MK, and get the results...

diddy is up there with snake. He is really good and has no counter matchups either, and id say he fights d3 better.
Stages is debatable.
He may not have the kill power of snake but he's still really good and has banana's that safely rack up damage until he can kill.

 

[Seagull Joe]

The two characters who'd be questionably higher then Snake would be Falco and Diddy for obvious reasons. Oh and Falco>Diddy. Soooooooooooooo:

1.Mk
2.Falco
3.Diddy
4.Snake
5.Marth
6.Ics
7.Dedede

Falco gives Diddy a hella hard time with Cg spike, Laser annoyance, spacings from Iap (Diddy doesn't have much options to beat this) and abilitiy to rack up damage quickly. Diddy can't even Cp his best stage FD on Falco because that's Falco's best stage. And Japes with Falco is auto win.

 

[complexity1234]

falco has a few hard matchups, like those dumb pika chaingrabs and fighting IC's.
Something that helps is being able to fight the entire cast without being gay'ed

 

[etecoon]

diddy and maybe falco or wario > snake IMO, at the very least as is quoted from me in the original post, people who think that snake is better than meta knight are out of their ****ing minds.

 

[Seagull Joe]

falco has a few hard matchups, like those dumb pika chaingrabs and fighting IC's.
Something that helps is being able to fight the entire cast without being gay'ed

Ok you named two characters. Falco does better against Mk then Diddy. Diddy is also countered by Luigi hard. And Ics give a majority of people trouble.

diddy and maybe falco or wario > snake IMO, at the very least as is quoted from me in the original post, people who think that snake is better than meta knight are out of their ****ing minds.

Not Wario. The only reason he is even 3rd now is because of the huge hype people brought. Hardly any Warios ever place. Fiction even dropped him for Ics because he knew Wario wasn't 3rd best or even top 7. Wario can be ***** by D3 hard. Wario can be grab released by Snake into Utilt. Falco can Cg spike him. Wario isn't as good as the hype he brought around.

 

[complexity1234]

no one counters diddy, luigi is just harder to fight, doesnt mean disadvantage.

And Ics give a majority of people trouble.

im not talking about the rest, its about falco.
Diddy fights IC's better.
Judging by ur posts though i can tell ur not that good.

 

[Seagull Joe]

no one counters diddy, luigi is just harder to fight, doesnt mean disadvantage.

im not talking about the rest, its about falco.
Diddy fights IC's better.

Wolf counters Ics. So I don't get your point if one character counters one thing. DEHF believes that Falco is 55-45 with Mk. Falco's advantage. The tier list is more based off how one does solely against Mk as a whole. Case in point, Wario being 3rd on the current list.

And I've watched Nerd's Falco on livestream beat an Ic hard.

 

[etecoon]

Not Wario. The only reason he is even 3rd now is because of the huge hype people brought. Hardly any Warios ever place. Fiction even dropped him for Ics because he knew Wario wasn't 3rd best or even top 7. Wario can be ***** by D3 hard. Wario can be grab released by Snake into Utilt. Falco can Cg spike him. Wario isn't as good as the hype he brought around.

I thought fiction just got bored? I think some people may have overhyped him but he does have one big thing going for him in his versatility, he adapts to crazy stage CP's better than diddy, better than snake, better than IC's and falco. if we're just talking straight neutrals I'd be inclined to agree, but it seems like a number of other top characters get gay'd a lot easier.

 

[leffen]

The two characters who'd be questionably higher then Snake would be Falco and Diddy for obvious reasons. Oh and Falco>Diddy. Soooooooooooooo:

1.Mk
2.Falco
3.Diddy
4.Snake
5.Marth
6.Ics
7.Dedede

Falco gives Diddy a hella hard time with Cg spike, Laser annoyance, spacings from Iap (Diddy doesn't have much options to beat this) and abilitiy to rack up damage quickly. Diddy can't even Cp his best stage FD on Falco because that's Falco's best stage. And Japes with Falco is auto win.

i lolled at how little you know about diddy.

 

[Nitrix]

Seagull Man and Smashking are both very wrong in this thread....

Diddy is better than Falco and Diddy is in contention for the 2nd best character in the game.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Seagull Man and Smashking are both very wrong in this thread....

Diddy is better than Falco and Diddy is in contention for the 2nd best character in the game.

i lolled at how little you know about diddy.

Don't be close minded. If you're basing the fact that ADHD ***** Falcos on EC then that means nothing cause EC Falcos are ****.

 

[Kewkky]

The two characters who'd be questionably higher then Snake would be Falco and Diddy for obvious reasons. Oh and Falco>Diddy. Soooooooooooooo:

1.Mk
2.Falco
3.Diddy
4.Snake
5.Marth
6.Ics
7.Dedede

Falco gives Diddy a hella hard time with Cg spike, Laser annoyance, spacings from Iap (Diddy doesn't have much options to beat this) and abilitiy to rack up damage quickly. Diddy can't even Cp his best stage FD on Falco because that's Falco's best stage. And Japes with Falco is auto win.

This sounds more like a matchup synopsis instead of a "Falco is overall better than Diddy" argument. Sure, Falco gives Diddy trouble, the MU says so too. But does Falco do better against everyone else than DIddy does? That's where the real info lies buried.

Ok you named two characters. Falco does better against Mk then Diddy.

Debatable, some people think Diddy does better than Falco. I can't really say off the top of my head who does better than who, that's up to their respective mainers as well as MK mainers.

Diddy is also countered by Luigi hard. And Ics give a majority of people trouble.

What? The MU is even. All Luigi has going for him is his projectile and nair, and that's the gist of it. Hell, a smart Diddy won't approach until a banana lands on Luigi and probably will stay away firing peanuts against Luigi. It's not a counter, even less a hard counter.

Not Wario. The only reason he is even 3rd now is because of the huge hype people brought. Hardly any Warios ever place. Fiction even dropped him for Ics because he knew Wario wasn't 3rd best or even top 7. Wario can be ***** by D3 hard. Wario can be grab released by Snake into Utilt. Falco can Cg spike him. Wario isn't as good as the hype he brought around.

I agree that he's not top 3, but he belongs in the upper echelon of characters, no lower than Marth nor DDD. He's that good.

Wolf counters Ics. So I don't get your point if one character counters one thing. DEHF believes that Falco is 55-45 with Mk. Falco's advantage. The tier list is more based off how one does solely against Mk as a whole. Case in point, Wario being 3rd on the current list.

Wolf doesn't counter ICs. Hell, the only characters that counter ICs are the GOOD projectile-dependent ones, mid-range attacks with good knockback, and/or others with strong multi-hitboxes safe on shield. There aren't many of those, so ICs are pretty high up.

DEHF believes that it's 55:45 Falco's favor against MK? Remember it's just one person (albeit a top player), and one person doesn't make a character's metagame, but a bunch of players do. And if you believe DEHF's words, you have to have some proof that Falco can beat MK even while MK resorts to his gay strategies.

And I've watched Nerd's Falco on livestream beat an Ic hard.

I can beat an IC mainer with Ganondorf. We have to be in different skill levels, though. Doesn't mean anything if I beat him or not IMO, but I might be wrong.

Does the IC have a name though? I'm pretty sure that a top-level IC would be a ***** to beat.

Don't be close minded. If you're basing the fact that ADHD ***** Falcos on EC then that means nothing cause EC Falcos are ****.

That's an opinion, and opinions are subjective. Has any WC Falcos '*****' ADHD yet? Then you have no basis to back up that fact.

 

[CaliburChamp]

Ally probably thinks Diddy Kong is better than Snake, since Gnes and ADHD were able to take games off his Snake. But really, its more about the match up. There's some characters below Diddy that have an easier time against Diddy than Snake. Snake pretty much ***** all bottom-mid tier characters. Does good against high tiers, and does decently against top tier characters. Snake is still 2nd best.

And there's no way Falco is 2nd or 3rd best character, his recovery is too horrible... if he uses Up+b, he's basically a sitting duck.

 

[Seagull Joe]

This sounds more like a matchup synopsis instead of a "Falco is overall better than Diddy" argument. Sure, Falco gives Diddy trouble, the MU says so too. But does Falco do better against everyone else than DIddy does? That's where the real info lies buried.


Debatable, some people think Diddy does better than Falco. I can't really say off the top of my head who does better than who, that's up to their respective mainers as well as MK mainers.

What? The MU is even. All Luigi has going for him is his projectile and nair, and that's the gist of it. Hell, a smart Diddy won't approach until a banana lands on Luigi and probably will stay away firing peanuts against Luigi. It's not a counter, even less a hard counter.

I agree that he's not top 3, but he belongs in the upper echelon of characters, no lower than Marth nor DDD. He's that good.


Wolf doesn't counter ICs. Hell, the only characters that counter ICs are the GOOD projectile-dependent ones, mid-range attacks with good knockback, and/or others with strong multi-hitboxes safe on shield. There aren't many of those, so ICs are pretty high up.

DEHF believes that it's 55:45 Falco's favor against MK? Remember it's just one person (albeit a top player), and one person doesn't make a character's metagame, but a bunch of players do. And if you believe DEHF's words, you have to have some proof that Falco can beat MK even while MK resorts to his gay strategies.

I can beat an IC mainer with Ganondorf. We have to be in different skill levels, though. Doesn't mean anything if I beat him or not IMO, but I might be wrong.

Does the IC have a name though? I'm pretty sure that a top-level IC would be a ***** to beat.


That's an opinion, and opinions are subjective. Has any WC Falcos '*****' ADHD yet? Then you have no basis to back up that fact.

Wolf does counter Ics. 55-45 Wolf's favor. Wolf spacing Bairs beats Ics approach. One laser=No blizzard wall. Wolf is also weird to Cg. I've had this discussion with several people who fully agree this matchup is slightly in Wolf's favor. Ics aren't some amazing godly character. And Wolf's Dsmash separates Ics incredibly easy. Plus shine spike. Etc.. If you really want to go into why this match is in Wolf's favor PM me.

 

[smashkng]

Falco is not even with MK if planking is allowed. Falco risks his life if he tries to stop planking.

Snake is definitely 2nd, MK matchup maybe actually in Snake's favour, because Snake lives way longer and MK has to deal fairly much damage to kill. Pretty much all tier lists have MK 1st and Snake 2nd.

And Snake almost always lives to 200% against Diddy, and Snake kills at almost half that percent. Diddy IMO isn't 2nd best, because he is one of the weakest characters in the game, if not the weakest (nothing to do with how easy they're to land though).

And Nitrix, learn to respect opinions. You're saying "you're wrong" with something that's arguable and giving no reasons why it's wrong.

 

[lain]

Wolf does counter Ics. 55-45 Wolf's favor. Wolf spacing Bairs beats Ics approach. One laser=No blizzard wall. Wolf is also weird to Cg. I've had this discussion with several people who fully agree this matchup is slightly in Wolf's favor. Ics aren't some amazing godly character. And Wolf's Dsmash separates Ics incredibly easy. Plus shine spike. Etc.. If you really want to go into why this match is in Wolf's favor PM me.

70:30 IC's

I personally think the tier list is MK, Snake, IC's, Diddy, Falco.

 

[complexity1234]

oh yea forgot alot of IC's players think IC's are 3rd lol.
They're all good thats all that matters.

 

[Kewkky]

Wolf does counter Ics. 55-45 Wolf's favor. Wolf spacing Bairs beats Ics approach. One laser=No blizzard wall. Wolf is also weird to Cg. I've had this discussion with several people who fully agree this matchup is slightly in Wolf's favor. Ics aren't some amazing godly character. And Wolf's Dsmash separates Ics incredibly easy. Plus shine spike. Etc.. If you really want to go into why this match is in Wolf's favor PM me.

*facepalm*

(bolded) 55:45 isn't a counter, it's still even and can go either ways. A counter would be more along the lines of 65:35/70:30+, now THAT'S a counter! And being weird to CG doesn't matter, it's all about learning the timing.

(underlined) So they agree that it's slightly in Wolf's favor... But they don't agree that Wolf is a counter. That's some faulty info, man. And I don't disagree that it's near even, but I DO disagree that it's a counter. It definitely isn't a counter.

 

[Hylian]

Wolf does counter Ics. 55-45 Wolf's favor. Wolf spacing Bairs beats Ics approach. One laser=No blizzard wall. Wolf is also weird to Cg. I've had this discussion with several people who fully agree this matchup is slightly in Wolf's favor. Ics aren't some amazing godly character. And Wolf's Dsmash separates Ics incredibly easy. Plus shine spike. Etc.. If you really want to go into why this match is in Wolf's favor PM me.

Um, IC's beat wolf pretty badly. Wolf countering them is laughable.

Single climber can CG wolf with a walking dthrow cg to around 100% into a smash. No character is "weird" to cg, that just means you have absolutely no idea how IC's grabs work. Wolf's very easy to cg. Iceblocks get rid of his lasers without a problem and approaching him is easy. Dsmash is super baitable and easy to avoid by just squalling into them, which leads to uair combos, bair is simple to beat with proper desynching. Wolf dies from a no throw spike at like 28%.

I don't know what IC players you are playing lol. I've played a good amount of wolfs from every region in tournament/mm's though and you have it kind of backwards. Single Climber vs wolf might be even LOL.

 

[swordgard]

Wolf does counter Ics. 55-45 Wolf's favor. Wolf spacing Bairs beats Ics approach. One laser=No blizzard wall. Wolf is also weird to Cg. I've had this discussion with several people who fully agree this matchup is slightly in Wolf's favor. Ics aren't some amazing godly character. And Wolf's Dsmash separates Ics incredibly easy. Plus shine spike. Etc.. If you really want to go into why this match is in Wolf's favor PM me.

Ahahahahahahahah.



Should I mention that it is incredibly easy to grab wolf, he can be solo cged to insanely high %?

 

[GreenFox]

Ally plays mk now? I knew brawl would turn into this that sucks

 

[Nicole]

Snake is the 2nd best char IMO.

I don't think that Diddy can be the 2nd best ever. He has bad matchups - Wario, Falco, Peach, Marth, ROB. I don't think that his killpower is the problem as much as his gimp-able recovery and his dependence on certain stages. I don't mean to say that Diddy sucks on things like Rainbow Cruise, because he doesn't. But he cannot be as good on RC as he can on say, Smashville. The stage he plays on dictates how good he can be. Take a look at his bad matchups too - he definitely has more bad matchups than Snake. People just have loads of trouble with Diddy's bananas, it seems, and no one's really been able to handle them well yet. I'm sure that we'll see that sort of development in the metagame at some point, especially since it seems like more and more people are playing Diddy thanks to his even-ish matchup with MK.

 

[GreenFox]

Is it just me or is Ally switching to MK gonna be the second great awakening of MK? >D

GOD I HATE MK DITTOS and It's what brawl is turning into

 

[MBlaze]

Okay, so far some people in this thread have been saying some REALLY stupid **** about Diddy. Let me clear the air here:

diddy is up there with snake. He is really good and has no counter matchups either, and id say he fights d3 better.
Stages is debatable.
He may not have the kill power of snake but he's still really good and has banana's that safely rack up damage until he can kill.

Okay to this... just wow. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt right now and say you're talking about hard counter or something, then you'd be right. But if you're talking about soft countering with matchups such a 6:4, I'm wondering right now if you know about Diddy and Peach, Diddy and Luigi and Diddy and Rob?

To whoever said that Diddy and Luigi is even is wrong too, matchup is 6:4 Luigi's favor.

Falco also doesn't shut down Diddy, matchup is 55:45 or 60:40 at best in Falco's advantage. But then again this matchup isn't played enough as it should be in my opinion to get the hard details.

Also to whoever said Wolf counters IC's is just...... no.... IC's **** Falco for his recovery with the chaingrab spike to edgehog, with Wolf's recovery, what do you think is gonna happen once they spike and edgehog him and they have 2 characters to do it with and invincibility frames on their recovery when Wolf recovers straight up?

Seriously, think before yall talk.

 

[Dekar173]

You guys don't know anything, Wolf can...

Wolf can...

He can bair!!!

 

[leffen]

"I'm wondering right now if you know about Diddy and Peach, Diddy and Luigi and Diddy and Rob? "
LMAO, no offense Mblaze but just so you all know, despite being a smash lord and having a green name Mblaze is one of the medicore diddys who obv doesnt know **** about diddy either.
Luigi vs Diddy is EVEN or 55-45, just because u can 1. camp him, fair trades with everything and does more dmg! 2. Weak throw, he doesnt slide as long. etc etc.
Peach vs diddy lmao, noone has even played vs a peach in the diddy boards ( nice metagame there ).

The rest i kind of agree with, but not how u describe the matchups ( 1 grab is 1 stock, on ALL characters ).


Theres prob ~10 diddys in the world who really realize diddys true potential ( LIKE HAVING SO MANY OPTIONS AT ALL TIMES ) which means his metagame can develop much more than others ( No, not single nanner lock or instant ground tossing based metagame ).
And there is prob only ~4 who can even begin to utilize these options.

 

[etecoon]

He has bad matchups - Wario, Falco, Peach, Marth, ROB.

diddy vs marth is even IMO, a lot of diddy and marth players have said this too

 

[leffen]

Falco is ~55-45 AT THE MOMENT, peach is even , marth is even, rob is even .

 

[phi1ny3]

Glad I'm picking up Melee rofl

Diddy I think has the potential to get up, I think snake is a bit overrated, since theoretically he doesn't do so well, but I think a strong source of his strength shines on a player-by-player basis.

 

[Kewkky]

Glad I'm picking up Melee rofl

Diddy I think has the potential to get up, I think snake is a bit overrated, since theoretically he doesn't do so well, but I think a strong source of his strength shines on a player-by-player basis.

I'm glad Melee has Samus... It would've been 'just another fighting game' to me if it weren't for her.

I don't even know what she has that I like, I just do...

 

[•Col•]

I'm glad Melee has Samus... It would've been 'just another fighting game' to me if it weren't for her.

I don't even know what she has that I like, I just do...

She has some things that pretty much EVERY guy likes....

*winkwinknudgenudge*

 

[Kewkky]

She has something that pretty much EVERY guy likes....

*winkwinknudgenudge*

I REALLY wanted to put that in a spoiler tag, but I found the willpower to avoid doing that... It's all Brawl's fault, if it didn't FORCE me to stop jumping offstage to gimp MKs then I would've put the spoiler and comment!

Spoiler

boobs

 

[B!squick]

Ally must be really full of himself. >.> He's great, yeah, but Razer alone is just as good as he is and he has a different play style. Ally, you're not the Reflex of Snake, I'm sorry.