Ally: Snake is not the second best character. What?

[Kewkky]

1st off i am not saying he will be lower in the 5th tier list what i am saying is that not until the 5th tier list is there a good enough argument for him to be lowered.

Ok, I'll bite. Who knows what can happen from here till the 5th tier list?

2: if only MK wins tourneys then he is ban worthy. u mentioned all those people who have beaten M2K now ally plays MK so if name is a moot point and the point of what i am saying is now the 2 best in the world are playing MK those people who have beaten M2K before and won tourneys might not be winning anymore and if that happens and only MK wins then he is ban worthy. Also how long ago were most of those wins u mentioned most were so long ago they no longer matter. if 1 character is winning everything and is proving to be the only viable character for winning the big tourneys then yes he is ban worthy

No, you are seriously wrong. What if all the best players in the world suddenly used Captain Falcon (I remember this example before), and they all won the tourneys and took all of the top 8 spots... Would winning all of the tourneys make him ban worthy? No, he's only winning because the best players are using him. MK is the same. Or are you implying that MK should get special treatment? Should he be banned if he wins tourneys, even if what I said is true that the tourney-winners do NOT warrant bans? If so, then your statements sound terribly biased.

 

[ADHD]

Sometimes it takes a special person to reveal what the character can really do on a competitive level, after what seeing Ally do and all the millions of mistakes he makes--it's scary what the result would be if those mistakes were eliminated. You'd have a perfect character, since he is so unbelievably heavy, gimping him is the only option to win. Snake is really not easily gimped unlike some of the swf boards seem to claim..

Great camping game.
Fast, gaping tilts with enormous hitboxes.
One of the best kill moves in the game.
Unbelievably heavy (can I stress this enough.)

Now, normally.. when a character has a superior camping game, he is not nearly as PHAT AS PHUCK as snake, but this rule is easily negated just by looking at him.

 

[Seagull Joe]

seagull get out you think snake is the best character in the game..
I think diddy is tied with snake..
i have not play one of the best falcos so i would not know

Indeed I do think Snake is best character in the game. I got caught up in the idiocy of this blog and it made me forget what I always think.

 

[DMG]

A lot of M2K's losses stem from him not having sufficient matchup experience/not knowing what to do. Look at his post about Diddy for example. He himself isn't confident in that matchup, and he still wins more than he loses against that character.

Take Fiction/Reflex too. Fiction/Reflex beat him not just because they were good, but because M2K underestimated what Wario was capable of and played too aggressively/incorrectly. Hell, I can tell just playing against M2K that he's still kinda learning that matchup although he has gotten a lot better at it compared to when he played Fiction.


IC's, hell M2K ***** IC's nowadays. He said screw it, I'm gonna camp really hard like I'm supposed to do, get inside when they mess up, **** Nana, rinse and repeat. People despise him for gliding under the stage, but hey all M2K is doing is playing to win. It's like people point out when he loses, and then when he tries something smart people tell him "Hey, that's gay, you can't do that." IDC is one thing, but you can't point out M2K losing to someone as proof that MK isn't that good AND THEN TURN AROUND and tell him "You can't play gay like that, it's too much, we don't want you to do that." If he's playing so gay that you have to prevent what he is doing, chances are his character is freakin amazing/a little ******** lol.

Also if you guys want, I can explain why you cannot believe Snake is the best character in the game, while also advocating for a ledge grab limit/gliding rules/etc.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Ok, I'll bite. Who knows what can happen from here till the 5th tier list?


No, you are seriously wrong. What if all the best players in the world suddenly used Captain Falcon (I remember this example before), and they all won the tourneys and took all of the top 8 spots... Would winning all of the tourneys make him ban worthy? No, he's only winning because the best players are using him. MK is the same. Or are you implying that MK should get special treatment? Should he be banned if he wins tourneys, even if what I said is true that the tourney-winners do NOT warrant bans? If so, then your statements sound terribly biased.

no u are wrong if all the best players picked up falcon and won then it is all the other players who lost fault b/c falcons character build is so bad he should not win. So u are telling me that if only one character wins tourneys and proves to be the only viable character if u want to win and makes playing any other character pointless b/c u will lose is not ban worthy? thats practically the definition of ban worthy. if only one character can win there is a problem a and that character needs to be banned. There has never been another fighting game were one character won everything and he was not banned there have been plenty of cases before MK that would show his dominance is indeed ban worthy.

 

[DMG]

Look, there are two arguments here, both have some weight, both are correlated a bit.

1. Character popularity doesn't necessarily prove that a character is broken.

2. If a character is popular out of necessity, then this can be a good indication that the character in question is broken.

The question is whether or not MK is popular because people want to play as him, or because people HAVE to play as him.

Take Ally for example. You could take his situation, and argue that he is wanting to play as MK. Or you could look at what is happening and say that he is playing MK because he feels he kinda has to. Either one makes sense, just depends on how you look at it.

 

[Kewkky]

There has never been another fighting game were one character won everything

What other fighting games have you played...? And what are their best characters? I could look up some recent tourney results, as well as old tourney results, I have a whole day before getting on the plane to Pound4 to do anything so I might as well research a bit.


@ everything else:

MK hasn't changed at all since the first time people talked about banning MK. If they didn't ban him before, why would they do it now? Because another top player started using MK? That's not a good enough reason.

 

[etecoon]

after what seeing Ally do and all the millions of mistakes he makes--it's scary what the result would be if those mistakes were eliminated.

it's also scary to think what would happen if he played a character where mistakes are more easily gotten away with(meta knight)

o wait : )

 

[DMG]

@ everything else:

MK hasn't changed at all since the first time people talked about banning MK. If they didn't ban him before, why would they do it now? Because another top player started using MK? That's not a good enough reason.

Banning MK because top players all decide to use him, is not a reason to ban the character.

However, if you go up to those players and they tell you that they are playing MK because they feel that they have to play MK or accept being on considerably weaker ground than everyone else, then chances are the character needs to go.

MK has changed however (not the character itself, but our metagame conceived with him in it where the metagame as a whole evolves and "new" things are discovered for characters). At some points early in the game, people thought Snake was the best, that MK's killing Issue was too strong for him to be the best. Then people realized planking, camping harder, Gliding under stages, abusing character weaknesses harder, etc. Then, MK shined out as the obvious best in the game.

MK, as a character, will always be the same. However, comparing the time when MK was first discussed for a ban, with nowadays, our metagame/how we utilize him is becoming more perfect. With this, he has gotten better (in perspective of the metagame, not the character in attributes like he can't magically Uair in 1 frame, or Kill sooner than before, or longer range on Ftilt, etc). Other characters have gotten better as well in how we as people utilize them to the fullest, but they still don't reach what MK does.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

What other fighting games have you played...?


@ everything else:

MK hasn't changed at all since the first time people talked about banning MK. If they didn't ban him before, why would they do it now? Because another top player started using MK? That's not a good enough reason.

competitively outside of smash none but i am knowledgeable about others such as street fighter, and MvC2.

If MK proves to be the only character viable to win he is ban worthy that is a good enough reason. and about the old MK ban discussion first off a small majority did want him banned which i feel is a impotent thing to note and 2nd plenty of things about MK have been een since that discussion. do i need to bring up M2K vs Meep and how one of the matchs were not recorded b/c people say if it had been MK would of been banned do to how gay he could be played. The point is that if there is a competitive game were there is only one character who can win while if that same character was not in the game there would be a good deal more who have a chance then that character is ban worthy

 

[Flayl]

Ally playing MK doesn't change the facts that he beat MK with Snake regularly.

This thread is stupid and doesn't deserve to exist.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

If he really thinks snake is second the best character then why doesn't he pick up who he thinks is the second best character? Why pick up MK ? I think he's just looking for a reason to main MN.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Eh I think Snake's #1 and that ADHD's got it right. It should imo be stressed that Ally hasn't pushed Snake as far as M2K has pushed MK but the results are still strikingly close. Snake has more room for improvement than MK does.

And lmfao @ whoever said that Wario could be 2nd best. Wtf. Quit Life.

 

[Zankoku]

If he really thinks snake is second the best character then why doesn't he pick up who he thinks is the second best character? Why pick up MK ? I think he's just looking for a reason to main MN.

What silly logic. I mean, if you know who the best is, why would you settle for anything less?

 

[DMG]

All I can tell you is that if you think Snake is the best, that you better not also think planking is bad. Because if so I will smother you with a wall of logic that will **** you so hard, you will pass out IRL just from reading it and wake up covered in Vanilla Sauce.

I wish Snake could plank, glide under stages, be useful on Brinstar, and be able to eat cake

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Planking isn't bad in my book.

 

[MBlaze]

all I Can Tell You Is That If You Think Snake Is The Best, That You Better Not Also Think Planking Is Bad. Because If So I Will Smother You With A Wall Of Logic That Will **** You So Hard, You Will Pass Out Irl Just From Reading It And Wake Up Covered In Vanilla Sauce.

I Wish Snake Could Plank, Glide Under Stages, Be Useful On Brinstar, And Be Able To Eat Cake

Lmfaoooooooo

 

[rPSIvysaur]

But planking is bad!

[/sarcasm]

Honestly, Snake has too many unexploited flaws to make him the second best, the only reason I see him staying top two is his tournament results, but even that is starting to seem to falter.

 

[Kewkky]

I wish Snake could plank, glide under stages, be useful on Brinstar, and be able to eat cake

You're asking for Akuma. : |

 

[DMG]

Nope, I'm asking for MK.













Akuma doesn't eat cake.

 

[TaterSalad0811]

Yeah, MK isn't bannable, though I still feel that nearly all top tiers are slightly broken, snake's u-tilt, diddy's bananas (one was OK, two was 2 many...), falco's chaingrab, etc.

 

[6Mizu]

This conversation is very true. Snake is definatley not 2nd tier. Snake should definitely be at least 4th place on the next tier list.

 

[castorpollux]

I'd say snake is def. #2. He outcamps falco for christ sake!

 

[AllyKnight]

Sure that's why usually in National placing Snake doesn't make it in top 5. DEHF (Falco) is ****** everybody in the WC (MKS, Snakes, etc) How is that possible? Because Falco has the potential to be 2nd or 3rd best, except no one else is working his *** hard for it. Now the reason I'm using MK is because we know he's top 1 and it's easy. I will pick up a character than IMO is top 2-3. Starting in the next locas, then regionals, etc after Pound 4. and ADHD, Snake is not 2nd you forgot that he is EASY to punish with ur glide tossing bananas.

 

[Flayl]

Ok, so what would happen if DEHF decided to main MK?

Do you seriously not see that faulty logic here? lol

 

[DMG]

Arguing with Ally on this is like saying you have a better avatar for him to use.

It's flat out impossible to be correct against him.

If DEHF decided to play as MK (he seconds MK, at least last time I checked), then good game Brawl.

 

[Flayl]

I'm not sure how it's impossible to point out faulty logic, regardless of whom you're doing it to.

 

[MarKO X]

so Ally's using the MetaKnight @ Pound 4?

 

[BOB SAGET!]

Another MK to destroy everyone. Jesus christ, at least when Ally used Snake he made it fair in the tournies he went to. lol

 

[Rybaia]

Sure that's why usually in National placing Snake doesn't make it in top 5. DEHF (Falco) is ****** everybody in the WC (MKS, Snakes, etc) How is that possible? Because Falco has the potential to be 2nd or 3rd best, except no one else is working his *** hard for it.

Or maybe because DEHF is very good at this game.
Falco is a very good character but is not that amazing.

 

[AllyKnight]

Ok, so what would happen if DEHF decided to main MK?

Do you seriously not see that faulty logic here? lol

Why would he? He is ****** everybody right now and he's coming to Pound 4. I'm not quitting Snake but giving him a break and see how Nationals goes with Snakes.

 

[6Mizu]

Why would he? He is ****** everybody right now and he's coming to Pound 4. I'm not quitting Snake but giving him a break and see how Nationals goes with Snakes.

Do you promise?
Also, Ally if you give him a break.....you will not lose your touch right?

 

[~Lady Luck~]

I'm surprised that with the talk of moving tiers that this discussion wasn't moved to the Tier List discussion, and arguments with match ups should stay within the matchup threads in the Character Discussion topics, no?

Should something that well known Brawlers discuss really be put into an entirely different thread of discussion?

 

[Rybaia]

Why would he? He is ****** everybody right now and he's coming to Pound 4. I'm not quitting Snake but giving him a break and see how Nationals goes with Snakes.

Soo what's the next char.
Falco? Diddy?

 

[DMG]

Next character is MK.

 

[Kewkky]

I'm surprised that with the talk of moving tiers that this discussion wasn't moved to the Tier List discussion, and arguments with match ups should stay within the matchup threads in the Character Discussion topics, no?

Should something that well known Brawlers discuss really be put into an entirely different thread of discussion?

Well as far as I know, we're still talking about Snake being 2nd best or not. We're kinda on-topic.

... Unless you mean something else. Well, discussions tend to go off-topic sometimes, it's not like everyone chooses to talk about one thing. If someone appears and all of a sudden says with a straight-forward tone "Falco vs Ganondorf is 30:70 Ganondorf's favor", you're not gonna invite him over to the character boards, instead you're gonna want to correct him where he made his statement, right? It's much easier and requires less effort than linking this and that and all those other things to everywhere we randomly talk about MUs.

 

[CO18]

I dunno Its between diddy and snake as 2nd best. No way Falco/wario/whoever else you're thinking is.

I would say diddy but the only reason I dont feel diddy is 2nd best cuz like 99.5% of the brawl community doesnt know how to fight diddy and just gets flustered by his camping.

 

[~Lady Luck~]

Well as far as I know, we're still talking about Snake being 2nd best or not. We're kinda on-topic.

... Unless you mean something else. Well, discussions tend to go off-topic sometimes, it's not like everyone chooses to talk about one thing. If someone appears and all of a sudden says with a straight-forward tone "Falco vs Ganondorf is 30:70 Ganondorf's favor", you're not gonna invite him over to the character boards, instead you're gonna want to correct him where he made his statement, right? It's much easier and requires less effort than linking this and that and all those other things to everywhere we randomly talk about MUs.

I guess so. I also rethought about that last statement and literally facepalmed myself after remembering the fact that we're talking in the Tactical Brawl section; matchups and tier placements would naturally come up.

My bad. My noobiness has shown again. :embarrass

 

[RATED]

Pound4 is going to be awesome, at least me I am hoping that the Grandfinals won't be MK dittos, it will be suckish as hell.

 

[etecoon]

I would say diddy but the only reason I dont feel diddy is 2nd best cuz like 99.5% of the brawl community doesnt know how to fight diddy and just gets flustered by his camping.

you could say the same for snake IMO, maybe neither is as good as they're made out to be, I don't have a strong conviction on who is 2-5, but I definitely don't think either is at the level MK is at like some people do...