Ally: Snake is not the second best character. What?

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Diddy is not number 2. Geez. The character probably shouldn't even be 3 or 4. Tons of match ups where MK/Snake/Wario/Marth/D3/Ice Climbers/etc CRUSH give Diddy difficulty.

If the logic "well if Ally didn't give Snake rep" is applied to Diddy, and so ADHD doesn't count, you would reach the same conclusion. Diddy's rankings in Ankoku's rankings are basically a result of ADHD + Gnes + Me + Fliphop going to tournaments and consistently getting top 8/top 3/1st. Take any one of us out of the equation and Diddy would likely drop an entire position in Ankoku's rankings. Take us 4 out of the rankings and Diddy would drop to about 20th (just 4 people!). There are not a plethora of Diddy Kong players out there getting top 8 consistently (unlike Snake and MK).

Diddy takes forever to get good with and in the end an entire match of work can be undone in an instant because the recovery is so gimpable. You have to play perfect with Diddy, where as with Snake/MK you have tons of room for error.

Snake is the 2nd best...I can't even believe this is a debate.

That is a great point people tend to overlook this fact when Fiction dropped Wario now they scream how overrated he Wario and how he should drop. Same could be same for Haze with Marth or Anther with pika and it goes on and on and on.

 

[smashkng]

When you say bad, you mean like 65-35+ right?

Yes, that's IC and Pikachu, which is not just 1 matchup, but 2 matchups. Those I mentioned+MK and Snake lack a such matchup.

 

[MarKO X]

except, it's not about character rankings, is it?

if everyone dropped MK, would MK be a terrible character?
if everyone picked up Falcon, is he a god now?
if everyone picked up Jiggs, is she still a lightweight that dies from lovetaps? (inb4youcan'tkillherhorizontallythateasily)

 

[swordgard]

MK vs Snake is just getting worse and worse for Snake.

Diddy's 2nd imo.

Funny, I'm thinking the opposite.

 

[OverLade]

Funny, I'm thinking the opposite.

Same.

I think Snake is making the matchup closer, though I think it's 55-45 MK. Snake has to put in more effort and get slightly harder reads to win, but when he knows the matchup it becomes extremely hard for MK players who dont (vice versa though)

 

[Ling Ling]

Snake is the 2nd best...I can't even believe this is a debate.

^This

Pound 4!!!!!

 

[RATED]

Same.

I think Snake is making the matchup closer, though I think it's 55-45 MK. Snake has to put in more effort and get slightly harder reads to win, but when he knows the matchup it becomes extremely hard for MK players who dont (vice versa though)

ok now, the question would be : what if both players knows the matchup between snake and metaknight? it would even up? mk get the advantage ? or Snake get the advantage?

is just that both characters are pretty the opposite of each other

Edit: also Snake is the 2nd best is just that people are getting the "hang" on Snake but also people will get the "hang" of Diddy and there to the other , just like people got the hang of MK the prob is just that MK is too good LOL. but the tier list the Top 2 will be the same for a long time.

 

[Turbo Ether]

The only reason MK vs Snake isn't Snake's advantage is because MK can safely UpB Snake out of cypher for cheap, easy kills. When Snake lives as long as he normally does, he wins the matchup. Both characters can take eachother to a counterpick where they win. 55/45 for MK at best, overall.

Also, I have to disagree with AZ with Snake having a ton of room for ever. His weight and high damage output give him a lot of leniency for making comebacks, but one mistake or misread offstage and your stock is gone.

 

[OverLade]

ok now, the question would be : what if both players knows the matchup between snake and metaknight? it would even up? mk get the advantage ? or Snake get the advantage?

is just that both characters are pretty the opposite of each other

Edit: also Snake is the 2nd best is just that people are getting the "hang" on Snake but also people will get the "hang" of Diddy and there to the other , just like people got the hang of MK the prob is just that MK is too good LOL. but the tier list the Top 2 will be the same for a long time.

Imo the matchup becomes even roughly 55-45 but I believe at the highest level MK's begin to saturate a little bit.

I think Snake is a character that it's not easy to develop and learn, and he can be figured out to a degree, but the character is based on reads, and he gets a ridiculous amount of reward for those reads. He also lives an extremely long time with DI. Given all these things Snake actually sucks to a degree. He has the best camp game, lives the longers besides Dedede, and does more damage than any other character. But he still gets punished hard for making mistakes, which is why winning/****** with Snake is about good reads.

 

[napZzz]

next tier list is gonna be something like

1.mk
2.diddy
3.ic's
4.flaco
5.snake

or at least sometime in the future its going to be. Snake just isn't that good anymore and he wont get better, while characters like diddy, ic's, and flaco have this potential just waiting to be unleashed.

 

[<π]

Diddy is no where near third right now IMO. he is easier to gimp and just flat out kill with when compared to snake. and all of his damage and espeacially his kills come from bananas people need to learn how to play diddy and how to control the bananas. without them diddy becommes an average character at best. I think that should really be taken into account when deciding his placings.

In responce to the "he always has bananas" watch the high level Diddys they don't always have a banana avalible to them. When they do you can still play defensively to avoid a lot of damage and get them away from him. The video RedHal posted Gnes vs HRnut is a good example of that among others.

 

[<π]

Falco above snake? thats ridiculous. falco is no where near that good.

 

[-Mars-]

<3 you need to come on the west coast and see these Falcos play.

 

[<π]

I do. After about 70% gettiing his and combos in becomes all mind games. Kills are so hard with falco against characters with good spacing tools like MK like snake.
And then his recovery. if he has to upB nine times out of ten thats the stock right there phantasm is easy to predict and punish for most characters as well.
He is comboed or chained grabbed to big percents by a lot of the cast as well. If sheik is as low as she is solely because of her bad match ups in ICs and Pika then the hell is falco doing as high as he is now?

I'm not saying he is bad but better than snake? never.

 

[napZzz]

I do. After about 70% gettiing his and combos in becomes all mind games. Kills are so hard with falco against characters with good spacing tools like MK like snake.
And then his recovery. if he has to upB nine times out of ten thats the stock right there phantasm is easy to predict and punish for most characters as well.
He is comboed or chained grabbed to big percents by a lot of the cast as well. If sheik is as low as she is solely because of her bad match ups in ICs and Pika then the hell is falco doing as high as he is now?

I'm not saying he is bad but better than snake? never.

theorycrafting at its finest

 

[-Mars-]

After his 70% he can basically do nothing. He can just laser and use a combination of spaced ftilt, jab, and phantasm to remain relatively safe even against MK.

The kill problem is rather irrelevant especially if he has a lead.

He has an amazing double jump so predicting when he will use his side b isn't as easy as you would think.

IC's do suck for him though.

 

[CaliburChamp]

LMAO It's soo funny that when a pro loses some tournament it's not his fault but it's the character that "sucks".

Winterfest to anyone?

I think Ally was surprised from getting 7th at winterfest and being beat by an MK from Seibrik... and Gnes Diddy. Still, legit loses though. He probably wants to see how good he does with MK, just out of curiousity. There's still plenty of Snakes that are good, not only Ally. HRnut, Razer, Fatal, Afro Thunder. I can understand why he wants to play MK, it makes the game more fun again when you learn another character.
The only thing I don't understand is why he think's Snake is 3-4th best. Snake has amazing to mediocre qualities from best to worst. Snake either has amazing match ups or mediocre match ups, with his worst match ups being in the 45-55 category. Ally isn't the only one though, M2K thinks Snake is not the second best, remembering from a post he said like about 4 months ago. I personally don't take their word for it, when it comes to tiers... cause they aren't theory crafters when it comes to all characters, they are only theory crafters when it comes to talking about their own character, with exception of tiers.

 

[Psychoace]

This reminds me of why ice climbers were so good in melee *cough*chu dat*cough*

I also agree that marth is severely underrated, maybe even fox (probably not 2nd but up there.) I swear after watching samboner on razer my whole outlook on fox changed.

As for this falco/snake matchup if falco can get snake up to/past 70% not only does he have the option for camping, but also ruining snakes attempts at grenade camping and possibly getting a ko off of that.

 

[6Mizu]

if I get to grand finals and it's M2K too. I will go Snake.



It's either Marth Falco or Wario in my mind.

Ally, I say you go Falco or Marth. d()

Snake is the 2nd best...I can't even believe this is a debate.

No offense AZ, but I don't think you've plyed Snake.....cause he has lots of problems with...MU such as MK.

 

[RATED]

This reminds me of why ice climbers were so good in melee *cough*chu dat*cough*

I also agree that marth is severely underrated, maybe even fox (probably not 2nd but up there.) I swear after watching samboner on razer my whole outlook on fox changed.

As for this falco/snake matchup if falco can get snake up to/past 70% not only does he have the option for camping, but also ruining snakes attempts at grenade camping and possibly getting a ko off of that.

LOL Fox is good but... just watching one matchup of fox won't make him move like that but Kirby says hi to him, also ZSS, Falco and some more

 

[Heavy Metal KiLLeR]

Snake CAN kill
Snake CAN surivive a lot
Snake CAN do a amazing camping game
Snake CAN take % too easy
Snake HAVE range

So, he got the basics of brawl gameplay, the essence of the game, he is the second.

 

[<π]

I think Ally was surprised from getting 7th at winterfest and being beat by an MK from Seibrik... and Gnes Diddy. Still, legit loses though. He probably wants to see how good he does with MK, just out of curiousity. There's still plenty of Snakes that are good, not only Ally. HRnut, Razer, Fatal, Afro Thunder. I can understand why he wants to play MK, it makes the game more fun again when you learn another character.

He lost to CO18's D3 I believe not Gnes.

 

[Limeee]

the only problem about snake is his air game, and certain match ups.

he also relies on punishing because he has no reliable approach moves (Dacus can be grabbed as well as normal DA)

yay at getting my post on the OP, and probably being seen by ally...

 

[OverLade]

The video RedHal posted Gnes vs HRnut is a good example of that among others.

Actually that's a terrible example because Gnes 2 stocked HRNUT twice in tournament. Ultimate razer however beat Gnes, so it's nothing against snake.

And Ally I just wanna point out that you're saying Snake isn't that good based on your experience, but you play play as gay as many other snake players. You could probably play a lot gayer in certain matchups. Brawl is boring, but concerning optimal style I think Snake is still 2nd best on the whole right now.

 

[alexrooster]

Wichita is blowing up since I left. ****...

Snake is definitely #2.

 

[xDD-Master]

Snake ftw.

I see Snake #1 in the future :]

With enough MU experience every MU gets in Snake's favor imo :V

I know that from facts MK is #1, but as often said before Snake's punishing game is too good =D

+ All the other good things (Living forever, broken tilts, broken nades, broken DThrow)

Only gimps suck :S

 

[swordgard]

Snake ftw.

I see Snake #1 in the future :]

With enough MU experience every MU gets in Snake's favor imo :V

I know that from facts MK is #1, but as often said before Snake's punishing game is too good =D

+ All the other good things (Living forever, broken tilts, broken nades, broken DThrow)

Only gimps suck :S

Hmm, somehow i have a really hard time seeing that happening.

 

[Lionman]

Ally should main Falcon

 

[GreenFox]

If hes switchin to mk what makes you think he'd main falcon it's all about the money

 

[xDD-Master]

If hes switchin to mk what makes you think he'd main falcon it's all about the money

And fun; Winning is fun, Teh Money is fun, fun is fun.

You see ?

 

[MarKO X]

Snake can't be number 1 because we didn't create rules to keep him from getting banned.

 

[Sandtru27]

it's all about the money

'cept for when it's not...


















































just kidding


it's ALWAYS about the money

 

[Dragoomba]

Squirtle can also win national tourneys.

Remember Beyond the Limit 2?

 

[Steeler]

Squirtle can also win national tourneys.

Remember Beyond the Limit 2?

too true...lol

 

[PieDisliker]

Ally will have to still do a lot more training if he wants to beat some of the best MK's in dittos. I'm curious if he'd be able to beat Dojo or even Tyrant in MK dittos.

Snake's definately number two in my eyes. Wario IMO has the best chance of catching up to Snake, but not by much. Diddy is definately not number two with him losing to so many characters in his matchups. Falco's pretty good too, but Icy's and Pikachu ruin his chances.

There just aren't that many Wario mains out there right now. I mean, if Ally picked up Wario he could be the best one out there right now. And he could do well.

 

[Inferno3044]

He lost to CO18's D3 I believe not Gnes.

That's because it's D3. That's all I have to say

Ally should main Falcon

He should. His falcon is beastly.

If hes switchin to mk what makes you think he'd main falcon it's all about the money

I think he can possibly place with C. Falcon.

Ally will have to still do a lot more training if he wants to beat some of the best MK's in dittos. I'm curious if he'd be able to beat Dojo or even Tyrant in MK dittos.

Snake's definately number two in my eyes. Wario IMO has the best chance of catching up to Snake, but not by much. Diddy is definately not number two with him losing to so many characters in his matchups. Falco's pretty good too, but Icy's and Pikachu ruin his chances.

There just aren't that many Wario mains out there right now. I mean, if Ally picked up Wario he could be the best one out there right now. And he could do well.

ADHD is probably the main reason people think Diddy is #2. I've never heard of a Diddy nearly as good as him. Also, his Snake is better. He lost to Shadow in Grand Finals in MK dittos about a month ago and then won when he was sent to losers and switched to Snake. His Snake is better than his MK. He should use MK for D3, Marth (just a bad MU for Ally), and maybe Wario. Anyone other character he should stick to Snake.

 

[Kewkky]

You guys wanna know how Ally may be wrong?



Look at the opinions of all the other SBR-B members... Some think Snake's #2, some think he's lower, and some thinks he's tied with someone else for #2. The fact that he mains Snake doesn't mean much, since he hasn't seen the MUs from the other side of the matches (except with MK, but MK's better so blah). He should try maining whoever he thinks is #3 and realize just how hard it is for them to win in comparison to Snake. Maining MK is just keeping his knowledge intact, he should instead be gaining more of it, but we see that he went MK anyway... How will he find out Snake's 2nd best this way, I don't know. It's kinda redundant if he doesn't 'prove' that the supposed "2nd best character (or other 2nd best competitors)" can contend well enough, but still declares that Snake isn't a solid 2nd best.

 

[salaboB]

You guys wanna know how Ally may be wrong?



Look at the opinions of all the other SBR-B members... Some think Snake's #2, some think he's lower, and some thinks he's tied with someone else for #2. The fact that he mains Snake doesn't mean much, since he hasn't seen the MUs from the other side of the matches (except with MK, but MK's better so blah). He should try maining whoever he thinks is #3 and realize just how hard it is for them to win in comparison to Snake. Maining MK is just keeping his knowledge intact, he should instead be gaining more of it, but we see that he went MK anyway... How will he find out Snake's 2nd best this way, I don't know. It's kinda redundant if he doesn't 'prove' that the supposed "2nd best character (or other 2nd best competitors)" can contend well enough, but still declares that Snake isn't a solid 2nd best.

I've got no knowledge at all that will be useful in saying if Snake is best or not, but it sounded like Ally wanted to let Snake move to his "natural" position -- like he felt he was driving Snake higher than he deserved.

So he doesn't want to push some other character up higher than they deserve either, meaning the only character available for him to play is MK (Since he's the only character that's accepted as top by pretty much everyone -- so he can't be bumped up to a higher point than he should be by Ally maining him)

That's what it read like to me at least.

 

[Kewkky]

I've got no knowledge at all that will be useful in saying if Snake is best or not, but it sounded like Ally wanted to let Snake move to his "natural" position -- like he felt he was driving Snake higher than he deserved.

So he doesn't want to push some other character up higher than they deserve either, meaning the only character available for him to play is MK (Since he's the only character that's accepted as top by pretty much everyone -- so he can't be bumped up to a higher point than he should be by Ally maining him)

That's what it read like to me at least.

I can't disagree cuz I dunno what he's really thinking, I'm just throwing out ideas.

 

[OverLade]

Ally will have to still do a lot more training if he wants to beat some of the best MK's in dittos. I'm curious if he'd be able to beat Dojo or even Tyrant in MK dittos.

It won't be very long at all. Ally takes games off M2K in dittos. I've played him in dittos, we went about even, but his MK is not like other MKs. I wouldn't be surprised at all if he beat Tyrant and Dojo even now, but once he learns everything about the matchup I feel bad for anyone who wants to play him in dittos. He's also beaten Shadow in dittos.