Watch any Wario player and they definitely punish with ALOT more then 12%. Hell watch my matches vs Reflex. He combos me into situations where if i guess wrong i would be gimped. Watch any matches of Wolf. Hell i've even seen Seibrik follow up multiple times on characters he CANT chaingrab.
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Afro's thoughts on Melee Enthusiasts
- Thread starter Equi
- Start date
- Status
nevershootme
Smash Master
Looking at this... this whole brawl vs melee is like McCain vs Obama. Which pretty much gets nowhere in terms of arguments.
and sleepyk, most arcade beat 'em ups have huge hitstun it's ridiculous. so that game ain't the only one, unless it seriously is...
and sleepyk, most arcade beat 'em ups have huge hitstun it's ridiculous. so that game ain't the only one, unless it seriously is...
Ryan-K
Smash Master
predicting the opponent may be harder but the reward is still much much smaller
and don't act like all combos in melee are guaranteed, a majority of the time you have to react to DI and teching/wake up patterns
I thought you said you played melee competitively, you sure don't show it that's for sure.
I played wario in brawl
wario can only punish for more than 12% if they are either at 0% or if they can get killed by fsmaash fart ftilt or w/e. you play wolf you can shine yourself out of like half of the combos in this game
wolf sucks and gets gimped easily, the exception isn't the rule
and don't act like all combos in melee are guaranteed, a majority of the time you have to react to DI and teching/wake up patterns
I thought you said you played melee competitively, you sure don't show it that's for sure.
I played wario in brawl
wario can only punish for more than 12% if they are either at 0% or if they can get killed by fsmaash fart ftilt or w/e. you play wolf you can shine yourself out of like half of the combos in this game
wolf sucks and gets gimped easily, the exception isn't the rule
SleepyK
Banned via Administration
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2006
- Messages
- 5,871
There are veeeeery few "guaranteed" combos in melee. Granted, you can eliminate options and make them hard to get out of, but they're rarely guaranteed.
Xenogears is one of the best rpgs EVERRRRRR
Man, wait until you hear billy's american voice in the final FMV
It's so awful it's funny.
hungrybox
Smash Legend
wait....
FL has the best Halo player? (tsquared)
The best Street Fighter (and other fighting games i don't know about) player? (Flash Metroid)
And the best jigglypuff in the world? (but hbox sucks)
FL IS NASTEEE!!!
i'm about to get wrecked.
FL has the best Halo player? (tsquared)
The best Street Fighter (and other fighting games i don't know about) player? (Flash Metroid)
And the best jigglypuff in the world? (but hbox sucks)
FL IS NASTEEE!!!
i'm about to get wrecked.
NES n00b
Smash Master
There is no hitstun in that game. LOL you have to hit a guy and run away or get punished.
Also, the game is freakishly hard and no fun besides you can make fun of it and hear funny sound bytes such as "NOOOOOO!!!!!"
You make it sound like im saying there are 1000 hit guarenteed combos. What i am saying applies for smaller combos as well. Whether it be 3 hits or 20. They are almost always guarenteed, theres not much you can do about it other then DI, which is a smaller facter then airdodging is by far.
Wario can definitely punish for more then 12%...like i said watch Reflex or Futile matches.
If you thought wolf was going to shine out of every follow up, you could just punish the lagtime of the shine. I do it to equi often.
Wolf definitely does not suck.
Ryan-K
Smash Master
melee you can powershield the lasers back at falco and have way more movement options
plus falco can get punished hard if he screws up and say messes up his spacing. it's harder for some chars to punish a majority of the cast can **** him up if he does mess this up
so what can you do to a falco who messes up his laser spacing in brawl again?
plus falco can get punished hard if he screws up and say messes up his spacing. it's harder for some chars to punish a majority of the cast can **** him up if he does mess this up
so what can you do to a falco who messes up his laser spacing in brawl again?
SleepyK
Banned via Administration
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2006
- Messages
- 5,871
I love you, nes n00b. please stay longer next time
also, I don't know why there's tension between the players of both games.
I thought the brawl players from impact clash were all pretty cool, and afro was hilarious.
Also, melee falco has one of the worst recoveries in the game. After 2006-7, there was a sharp decline in falco's general tournament placings because people realized you just had to throw him off the stage and he was basically dead.
man, I love this picture.
hungrybox
Smash Legend
yo i'm nasty at GGXX now....Play my eddie/Potemikn guy Marty!!!
oh, and worst thread ever award?
What good has come out of this?
wait, shhhh, here comes Afrequi....
oh, and worst thread ever award?
What good has come out of this?
wait, shhhh, here comes Afrequi....
XIF
Smash Master
I meant for most of the cast. Sure if you're one of the best characters, but man what the heck is Ike supposed to do?
I like how your response is airdodge, when you've been sitting here defending how airdodging will get you punished if you just use it.
So tell me, which is it?
And not only that, the whole point is punishing it like superryan said. In melee, you can do some nasty crap to falco if they sit there and spam lasers. Falcon can knee him out of it if he tries it even a little too close, peach can float and drop mindgames and then turbo fvck falco once she gets in, Marth can dash under and powersheild, sheik can crouch powersheild, fox can shine, falco can shine, and with any character you get caught and thats a free 50 percent.
With Falco in brawl?..............
ummmm sidestep or airdodge with Falco, and if you mess up... 10 or so percent? Cool?
nevershootme
Smash Master
what i meant was hitstun for the player (IE: enemy hits you). not to mention excessive back stabbing from being piled up from the enemies
NES n00b
Smash Master
Oh yeah right. That game is just gay. XD Fighting every enemy like it was double dragon boss from the gameboy (only one hit is safe) while getting ganged upon by everyone.
Seriously, are you fvcking ********? I cant even be nice about it anymore.
Due to the SLOW PACE that lasers are shot, you can do fvcking anything out of falco's PATHETIC excuse for laser spam. And seriously when i say anything, i mean ANYTHING. You can power shield + walk up to him if you really want, the lasers come at a slow pace. You can jump in if you want. Some characters can even crawl underneath it (Snake, ZSS, Kirby can duck + walk).
If you are WARIO any time a falco begins laser camping, its a free Jump to Dair right on there face. I would know, since i now main wario and i play Tommy G quite often.
Continue posting that you have no knowledge of brawl....seriously trying to compare melee lasers to brawl lasers? LOL...are you serious..
Radical Dreamer
Smash Ace
- Joined
- May 14, 2007
- Messages
- 827
Ryan-K
Smash Master
if the falco is in range for wario dair he is doing it wrong for misspacing
falco lasers are more effective in brawl because there is less to do about camping in general you ****ing cumrag piece of ****
i guess you never heard about the 15 minute match bum and d1 had when d1 just camped him on battlefield since they forgot to put time on but i wouldn't expect you to since you don't know what you're talking about anyway
so what if you can crawl, he can just run away and restart it and you really can't punish him unless the falco player has like some disability involving motor skills.
just because you can move around it doesn't mean it's effective because you still aren't hitting him *******
yeah, keep it up with your mature discussion while you mindlessly judge the melee community ******
falco lasers are more effective in brawl because there is less to do about camping in general you ****ing cumrag piece of ****
i guess you never heard about the 15 minute match bum and d1 had when d1 just camped him on battlefield since they forgot to put time on but i wouldn't expect you to since you don't know what you're talking about anyway
so what if you can crawl, he can just run away and restart it and you really can't punish him unless the falco player has like some disability involving motor skills.
just because you can move around it doesn't mean it's effective because you still aren't hitting him *******
yeah, keep it up with your mature discussion while you mindlessly judge the melee community ******
SleepyK
Banned via Administration
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2006
- Messages
- 5,871
How about this
we stop posting about brawl (which we don't know about)
and you stop posting about all the other games including melee (which you don't know about)
Ryan-K
Smash Master
i like how you roll sleepyk
Airdodging his its uses, at no point did i say airdodging was always negative, dont put words in my mouth you ******. I dont main Ike, so im not aware of what attack he would do, but im pretty sure falco ****s on the entire lower cast of melee to (and dont give me some bull**** excuse of what 1 character can do in a certain part of the stage in blah blah situation. Theres a reason only 3 or 4 characters have won the past 10 big melee tourneys).
I just said what wario can do, Snake can crouch into any tilt he wants, Mk just can jump and attack. Kirby can duck approach into any attack he wants. JIGGLYPUFF CAN AS WELL, olimar can shieldgrab the hell outta falco if he tries to laser spam. Wolf can just reflect them.
Seriously....
Master Raven
Smash Master
Wolf would probably be near the top of the high tier list if it weren't for his awful recovery.
Also, Wario is **** fun. His bite is so broken.
Also, Wario is **** fun. His bite is so broken.
I was wondering if it would be an effective way to avoid them by using a mid-air bike to get really high over the lasers and thus forcing them to reposition themselves.
Alright then Equi/Afro, I seriously wanted to stay out of this thread, but I've gotten progressively dissatisfied by your posts (respect as Brawl players though, real talk), so I'd like to bring up a few points (some will probably be restated, oh wellz).
Unless you're a character at a higher percent, the main objective of any of the smash games is to force the opponent off of the stage and keep them off. This is facilitated by building percent quickly to get a kill or by edgeguarding.
The problem here is that both percent buildingand edgeguarding (and offense in general) are greatly discouraged for most of the cast of Brawl. Percent building is hindered by the obvious floatiness and new airdodge system, and edgeguarding is also worsened by auto-sweetspotted edges and, again, the overall floatiness of the characters. (NOTE: both still exist, but in less effective forms)
Due to reduced projectile colldown time, and massively reduced shieldstun and cooldown rates for spotdodges and rolls, the game engine itself was designed for camping and not moving/avoiding approaches. This defeats the inherent goal of smash: to hit the opponent off of the stage, usually by scoring a series of hits. True, by approaching after all of this heavy camping and delivering a fresh kill shot a stock is taken off, but this is simply a reason why the game is not only boring to watch but is a central concept in the arguement over the competitive worth of the game. If the game engine is fighting against the main purpose of the game, there will certainly be serious competitive issues.
Through the use of options in Melee (of which I'm sure you're aware), there were in fact many thought processes made as well (referring to your "thought links per hit" idea I guess). You had to know not only your own options, but all of your opponent's options, plus their movement/attack pattern. This goes along with what Scar (or it could've been Cactuar, I forget) posted in that thread wayyyy back then concerning the general push-pull motion of fighting games.
In 64, there was too much push, where a stock could very well come from a single hit. Compounding this issue was the tremendous shieldstun, which discouraged any defensive options and tilted the game farther towards a more, as someone in this thread delicately phrased it, "an aggro fest."
In Brawl, there is too much of the "pull" force here due to the overall defensiveness of the game. You net no gain for all of the extra effort applied to score a hit, which discourages aggression at all (as previously stated). You end up with characters dancing around in some form attemtping to score one or two hits, then returning to the dancing around phase again.
In Melee, there is certainly a healthy amount of "mindgames" to hit the opponent due to the multitudes of options available to the player, and there can be as great of a reward to the player for scoring a hit as their tech skill allows. Most of these combos, however, would not result in a KO. This type of situation favors offense, but not to the point where any person is without defensive options at any time.
There's also a character balance issue, but I'm not well-informed enough (nor do I pretend to be) to create a well-founded arguement there.
Oh yeah, the point of this post was not to prove you guys (Afro/Equi) wrong, but to give you a broader perspective on the Melee side of the discussion. Brawl has some positive points too, but I am also in favor of Melee in terms of competitiveness and enjoyability, so I guess I just want you guys to see where we (as Melee enthusiasts) are coming from.
Unless you're a character at a higher percent, the main objective of any of the smash games is to force the opponent off of the stage and keep them off. This is facilitated by building percent quickly to get a kill or by edgeguarding.
The problem here is that both percent buildingand edgeguarding (and offense in general) are greatly discouraged for most of the cast of Brawl. Percent building is hindered by the obvious floatiness and new airdodge system, and edgeguarding is also worsened by auto-sweetspotted edges and, again, the overall floatiness of the characters. (NOTE: both still exist, but in less effective forms)
Due to reduced projectile colldown time, and massively reduced shieldstun and cooldown rates for spotdodges and rolls, the game engine itself was designed for camping and not moving/avoiding approaches. This defeats the inherent goal of smash: to hit the opponent off of the stage, usually by scoring a series of hits. True, by approaching after all of this heavy camping and delivering a fresh kill shot a stock is taken off, but this is simply a reason why the game is not only boring to watch but is a central concept in the arguement over the competitive worth of the game. If the game engine is fighting against the main purpose of the game, there will certainly be serious competitive issues.
Through the use of options in Melee (of which I'm sure you're aware), there were in fact many thought processes made as well (referring to your "thought links per hit" idea I guess). You had to know not only your own options, but all of your opponent's options, plus their movement/attack pattern. This goes along with what Scar (or it could've been Cactuar, I forget) posted in that thread wayyyy back then concerning the general push-pull motion of fighting games.
In 64, there was too much push, where a stock could very well come from a single hit. Compounding this issue was the tremendous shieldstun, which discouraged any defensive options and tilted the game farther towards a more, as someone in this thread delicately phrased it, "an aggro fest."
In Brawl, there is too much of the "pull" force here due to the overall defensiveness of the game. You net no gain for all of the extra effort applied to score a hit, which discourages aggression at all (as previously stated). You end up with characters dancing around in some form attemtping to score one or two hits, then returning to the dancing around phase again.
In Melee, there is certainly a healthy amount of "mindgames" to hit the opponent due to the multitudes of options available to the player, and there can be as great of a reward to the player for scoring a hit as their tech skill allows. Most of these combos, however, would not result in a KO. This type of situation favors offense, but not to the point where any person is without defensive options at any time.
There's also a character balance issue, but I'm not well-informed enough (nor do I pretend to be) to create a well-founded arguement there.
Oh yeah, the point of this post was not to prove you guys (Afro/Equi) wrong, but to give you a broader perspective on the Melee side of the discussion. Brawl has some positive points too, but I am also in favor of Melee in terms of competitiveness and enjoyability, so I guess I just want you guys to see where we (as Melee enthusiasts) are coming from.
Warios aerial mobility is so good are you honestly having problems approaching through the air with AIR DODGING.
Equi (wolf player) has never had a problem any Falco's laser game. Without even shining, you can JUMP over the lasers to space. I cant believe im sitting here telling people to JUMP. Airdodging through lasers is pretty intelligent for avoiding lasers (and for you XiF, since you take everything to the extreme, this does not in turn mean airdodge through everything). I've fought plenty of falcos as snake, i've never had a problem with lasers, crawling worked just fine for approaching.
You people are so hellbent on trying to bash brawl, are you seriously defending falco's horrible lasers in brawl? ANY player thats EVER placed even HALFWAY DECENT in a tournament in brawl will tell you that his lasers are a complete joke.
Sensei Seibrik
Smash Hero
how the hell did this get to 18 pages in a day?
im not even reading all of it nor am i gonna contribute other than to say ****
people got no life arguing THIS much THIS fast in a pointless battle of whitless rhetoric.
Please let me refer you to a picture to make my point:
http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/images/7/71/Internet_argument.jpg
can u tell me whos winning there?
same case here.
im not even reading all of it nor am i gonna contribute other than to say ****
people got no life arguing THIS much THIS fast in a pointless battle of whitless rhetoric.
Please let me refer you to a picture to make my point:
http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/images/7/71/Internet_argument.jpg
can u tell me whos winning there?
same case here.
SLyNKee
Smash Journeyman
wow reading this really is making me annoyed at afro and equi. Ive seen you both (or whoever is typing, or you guys are one entity now or some gay ****) say you have played melee for YEARS!
Afro was at mlg 2006 for halo and smash yes, but got pooped on really bad, so bad that his team mate got up and left vowing to not play anymore, afro just recently got into competitive melee a few months ago. I also hear afro either saying **** BRAWL MELEE IS SOOOO FUN. or then when hes getting crapped on by people that have been playing for years the next day hes like **** THIS GAME ITS SO GAY. make up your mind, you get just as frustrated in guilty gear.
And from what Ryan Sparks just told me (we should start having sleep overs and making posts together too) that Equi told him he attended 1 Melee tournament in the past and just watched a lot of videos.
Some YEARS of experience you guys got there.
Now Ill give it to you guys that I havent played any smash in a while, I would like to get back into melee because im so rusty that my samus is garbage right now. Not saying that I wont play brawl with both of you guys or anyone at nexus. I just find melee more fun when played competitivly. Brawl is still a fun game.
Im just annoyed with both of you that you are going to get into that group of people and be annoying as hell over an issue with smash bros. Im really dissapointed in both of you.
And next time we do play melee stop picking Marth agaisnt me everytime equi, you play everyone else with fox or falco and I get marth from you everytime? Yes marth has the advantage in that match up, but it gets old playing marth with you ever time.
Afro was at mlg 2006 for halo and smash yes, but got pooped on really bad, so bad that his team mate got up and left vowing to not play anymore, afro just recently got into competitive melee a few months ago. I also hear afro either saying **** BRAWL MELEE IS SOOOO FUN. or then when hes getting crapped on by people that have been playing for years the next day hes like **** THIS GAME ITS SO GAY. make up your mind, you get just as frustrated in guilty gear.
And from what Ryan Sparks just told me (we should start having sleep overs and making posts together too) that Equi told him he attended 1 Melee tournament in the past and just watched a lot of videos.
Some YEARS of experience you guys got there.
Now Ill give it to you guys that I havent played any smash in a while, I would like to get back into melee because im so rusty that my samus is garbage right now. Not saying that I wont play brawl with both of you guys or anyone at nexus. I just find melee more fun when played competitivly. Brawl is still a fun game.
Im just annoyed with both of you that you are going to get into that group of people and be annoying as hell over an issue with smash bros. Im really dissapointed in both of you.
And next time we do play melee stop picking Marth agaisnt me everytime equi, you play everyone else with fox or falco and I get marth from you everytime? Yes marth has the advantage in that match up, but it gets old playing marth with you ever time.
nevershootme
Smash Master
if you want the melee experience in brawl, just ban specific characters and add in the hacks, you're done... end of story.
I really dont wanna post a huge post again so i'll try to keep this short.
I agree that the pull in brawl is to much, and its significantly harder (if not impossible) to perform a large chain of combos. I just do not feel that it is bad for competitive play, as many others seem to think. I do agree with melee being more balanced, so i agree with you on alot of your points.
Though its clear that you favor melee, you can still post negative/positive about either game without bashing it. Which is what i'd like to see alot of other posters do.
XIF
Smash Master
Ok look, if you want to play Brawl whatever, it's cool. It's a stupid game, and I really can't say anything to convince you otherwise. If you enjoy it that's your prerogative. But there are serious fundamental problems with that game. You can cite how you can do this and this to approach this and this tactic, but it all comes back to the same thing. Side step and air dodge trumps it all. Or f/u tilt with snake <_<;
When you give too many options to the defender or the attacker, you have a bad game. In 64, you NEVER want to stop attacking, and that made it a bad game. In Brawl, its the opposite, and it makes it really bad.
If this isn't meant for competitive play, then by all means, enjoy leisurely, but if you're intending this for competitive play -- I expected better from you.
The point was that we know of melee, and have been to tournaments.
I get frustrated at any game i lose at, cuz thats just what i do, but i only stay frustrated for a short amount of time. In short im a johner lol, i get pissed when i lose, but i get over it and seek to improve immediately. Honestly taking whatever i say immediately after i lose a match when my head isnt* the clearest.
Nah its definitely fvcking gay when people do nothing but complain about the game we decide to play. Sparks does it all the time, honestly playing sparks is difficult when no matter what character i am he complains about it, but when i dont use that character i get *****ed at for not picking my main.
Also lol at the Equi comment, Marth is his main he says lol.
Im aware I wont convince you either, it doesnt mean we cant discuss the game, its not like theres a better way to waste our time on the forum (or we could just stop posting on the forum...lol).
I just disagree that brawl is a purely defensive game. All the players who do any good in tournament play aggressive, or at the very least dont play very defensive. The only exception is danny, and even he plays aggressive when he must.
Ryan-K
Smash Master
the fact that you think falco's lasers in brawl are a joke tells me how much you know about the game
All D1 does is spam lasers and chaingrab to spike for kills literally, which is why almsot all his matches go to time, and he got 1st at playntrade tourney in nyc
you can't tell me someone gets lucky that often in one of the most competitive parts of the country
no, but literally almost all he does is spam lasers, and im not talking about just personal experience but what other people have told me
yeah, that's the true mark of a ****ty projectile
I also never directly bashed brawl, you're just so much of an ignorant douchebag that you just like to start insulting people and then say the other side is immature.
if you wanna play brawl then whatever, if you wanna hate melee then i don't have a problem, just don't hate it for the wrong reasons then wonder why the melee community is so aggressive to brawl players after making a thread like this
Trying to say i know nothing of the game...lol.
I've been dominating the florida brawl scene for 6 months...
The projectile is horrible, no one in florida has any problems with it. Clearly this player in NYC is either superior to all of us or we are superior to all of NYC because no one has problems with that projectile.
I dont really know how else to respond.
Enough of the insults then lol...
EDIT:
I dont hate melee
I love melee
And i dont think the community as a whole hates brawl, only specific people.
Radical Dreamer
Smash Ace
- Joined
- May 14, 2007
- Messages
- 827
SLyNKee
Smash Journeyman
Why this sudden turn of annoyingness, all i hear is you both preach about melee, and how youd rather play melee, you guys spend some nights together playing a RPG and now you are all on this gay *** save the earth play brawl bull****.
Like the way you guys are talking and typing these posts, you are definatly on the track to become really really annoying people in a short amount of time. The smash community is so ****ing bad now, has been for about 10 months before brawl. Dont add to it.
You know my stance, I like melee better but I dont come on the boards and say stuff, just play what you like and have fun. This goes for everyone, stop being annoying and immature. Brawl is too slow for me, i like the technicalness and hardness of melee in competitive play, Brawl is fun and Im not saying i wont ever play it with anyone, what im saying is everyone needs to stop being annoying idiots.
If you two were around in 06 going to a tournament every weekend with all of us from south florida that was nexus crew (me, riot, chill, synikal, nbp mike, nbp corey, sighrax, tipman, doodah, sasha, bean, etc) that group of 12 of us was like a family and we would have SO much fun, if you had been there youd understand why people hate the brawl community. I dont hate the game, i just hate the majority of the people that play the game.
And if equi mains marth then why does he play falco/fox for like an hour, then i sit down, he goes to marth, then once its not my turn he goes to falco/fox again right after. Just get annoyed with people that only play characters where they feel they have an advantage with in friendles, its for FUN. Thats like yiuha at old nexus, always counter picking.
Like the way you guys are talking and typing these posts, you are definatly on the track to become really really annoying people in a short amount of time. The smash community is so ****ing bad now, has been for about 10 months before brawl. Dont add to it.
You know my stance, I like melee better but I dont come on the boards and say stuff, just play what you like and have fun. This goes for everyone, stop being annoying and immature. Brawl is too slow for me, i like the technicalness and hardness of melee in competitive play, Brawl is fun and Im not saying i wont ever play it with anyone, what im saying is everyone needs to stop being annoying idiots.
If you two were around in 06 going to a tournament every weekend with all of us from south florida that was nexus crew (me, riot, chill, synikal, nbp mike, nbp corey, sighrax, tipman, doodah, sasha, bean, etc) that group of 12 of us was like a family and we would have SO much fun, if you had been there youd understand why people hate the brawl community. I dont hate the game, i just hate the majority of the people that play the game.
And if equi mains marth then why does he play falco/fox for like an hour, then i sit down, he goes to marth, then once its not my turn he goes to falco/fox again right after. Just get annoyed with people that only play characters where they feel they have an advantage with in friendles, its for FUN. Thats like yiuha at old nexus, always counter picking.
hungrybox
Smash Legend
lol owned....
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