Afro's thoughts on Melee Enthusiasts

[Equi]

On that note, our point is proven.
At no point were our points covered by anyone.

At no point did anyone even respond intelligently to us when we responded intelligently to them.

And now, a random user (unknown to us atleast) is posting random images in the thread.

LOL
Our point is done.
The hate on brawl is uncalled for, there is no meaning behind it, no logical reasoning.
there is no reason both games cannot be played.
Anyone who decided to read this entire thread, let it be clear which side was intelligent, and which one wasnt.

Based on that, decide for yourself if brawl is a bad game based off of the posts from this thread. The people that posted the same **** for 10 pages, or the people who responded intellectually. No one is saying you have to like brawl, if you want to hate it, then fine hate it (though you dont have to go around making it known to others for the sole purpose of bashin).

No one is saying brawl is better then melee (for what..the 20th time this thread)?
Brawl is a fine game, let it coexist with melee in the SMASH scene. There is a option for everone to be happy here, why do we not choose that option...

 

[QDVS]

Melee >> Brawl

 

[Equi]

I'm sorry, but I don't understand why this thread should even be here. I read all the posts and what it seems like overall is that Afro+Equi are sick of people ignorantly bashing brawl with no real experience of the game.

That's a perfectly good reason to be upset, but I think that based off the attitudes of the people here, this thread has only reinforced their opinions and hasn't really provided any incentive to change their opinions about either brawl or melee.

I'm not sure what you guys were trying to accomplish with this, but if you were hoping that people would stop bashing brawl outright just because you offer a logical argument and support it well, then I'm afraid it doesn't look good. They say you can't teach an old dog new tricks, so trying to tell them to stop how they act or change their opinions just by making a thread which would only end up creating more problems is a bad idea. At this point, most people have pretty much made up their mind regarding brawl and melee and whether or not they like one or the other, and whether or not they find either game competitive, so it's gonna be pretty hard to try and change their opinions. A post like the first one is more fit for a blog really than a message board.

As far as the games go, I think people should just play either one, there's gonna be people who dislike your choice or preference either way. Instead of trying to change them you should just focus on keeping the like-minded individuals in the community together, so that you can have a stronger community. I know people who dislike brawl for it's differences just as there are people who dislike melee because of it's dependence on advanced techniques.

It's easy for melee people to hate on brawl because they feel like brawl really killed their community. 2007, the last big melee year, had record turnouts in tournaments, boasting several tournaments with over 200+ in attendance. A year that was supposed to have low turnouts, after being dropped by MLG from the circuit, ended up being the biggest yet. Only a year later, even "big" tournaments draw barely over 100 now. People who loved this game for years and competed in tournaments are upset, and they just want to enjoy melee the same way they did but it's harder now because brawl is emerging as a competing force in the market.

Basically I just want people to realize that yea people may hate on brawl for stupid reasons, and some people may not understand anything about either game but still hate brawl, but there are also some people who do understand and genuinely dislike brawl. Either way, you can't expect people to just love brawl, and you really can't expect to change their opinions about it either, at least not by making a thread like this.

edit - tl;dr "Can't we all just get along???" - Rodney King

We did what we came here to do.....
Good day to you all!
Im done with this thread, my point is proven.

Good ****

 

[MusicalMike]

This division is sad. I hate how this has become a war between the two games. Brawl or Melee, we are all Smash Brothers. This is a community of gamers. A serious game yes, but a game nonetheless. It is to be fun. We are also not anonymous. We meet up, we hang out, we have wonderful memories and experiences at tournaments and have a blast. This community is amazing.

It just breaks my heart to see my fellow Smash Brothers fighting over what...a game choice? There is no need to flame or to hurt. Even if you've never met the person you disagree with, they are still a fellow Smash Brother. Doesn't that mean anything to us anymore?

Where's the love?

 

[NES n00b]

PLEASE master NES n00b, explain to us why hitstun is VERY IMPORTANT for competitively play for anything other then flashy combos.

Im 100% certain,that you are not going to respond with anything intelligent at all.

Like all your previous posts.

Without hitstun, it is more about just getting a hit in instead of what you want to hit with and how to continue on with the punishment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVkDHsiqn8Y As you can see you mostly used the safe moves (ftilt, jab, grenades, and c4) then use uptilt for the kill, and while that also happens in alot of games with hitstun too, there is a still a little more thought on what move you want to get off to get the most punishment of the situation. In a game with hitstun however, there are certain moves that lead into the kind of damage or positions you want and they all have a different risk reward ratio.

Ok so let's look at a situation that is only difference that is reward. So you have a regular rock, paper, scissors but if you win with rock you get 10 points, paper you get 6, and scissors you get 4 first to 20 wins. You want to get rock, but so does your opponent and he knows that you want it too. Since you know he wants rock too, you might think i can get an easy 6 points if he chooses rock, but he could choose scissors over and over if i do that. So in essence it is a game of "unequal options" and this leads to more thought than a game with equal risk and reward. This is not going into more variables such as risk compared to the reward or what kind of reward you can get.

For example, in Melee if I was falcon against sheik at 0% on YS and i grabbed her in the middle of the stage i have a couple options I can

1A). throw sheik up and go for regrab if she doesn't DI which of course leads to about the same situation as before or tech chase her on a platform if she DIed there where she will have limited options but I will have very little reward if she tech rolls to away from me as I will only get an upair after that and she will have an almost neutral position after that

1B) I can throw her down and go for a tech chase while she does have more options in this regard of escaping especially with her good tech roll I could get a stomp or another grab. If I get the grab it leads to 1A except if I got her near the edge she will have little room to move which makes it harder for her to escape and I might be able to get an early edgeguard. If I get a stomp it leads to

2. After the stomp, I can get a nair, a knee, a jab, a grab, or wait for her to tech which gives me the same situation as 1b. except positioning.

2a. If I go for the nair, if she DIs away she is of the stage which might let me land something else to push her further or wait and just edgeguard her attempt to return. Keep in mind I can choose to hit her hard or try to keep the combo going. If she is not near the edge the situation goes to 1b. if she DIs up I can maybe hit her again and keep the combo going or hit her as far as i can resulting on an easier edgeguard attempt.

2b. Knee hits her farther away for an easier edgeguard attempt or maybe to get the most damage if you know you couldn't keep the combo going and if she Smash DI's up you can maybe get another knee or move if she is in the right position. 2c. jab leads into grab leads into 1a with better position 2d. Grab leads into 1a.

There is alot of variables associated with trying to take advantage of hitstun. Not to say that barwl doesn't have some of these descisions to make, but they are much simpler. Not only that but the hitstun in Melee makes the offense and defense aspect more balanced to as attacking might yield a higher reward while playing defensively is safer but doesn't get as high as a reward. Melee still is pretty defensive game in a good amount of cases though.

TLDR; hitstun is awesomesauce.

 

[Finch]

I can see that "thought per hit" went completely over your head.
Its alot different then guarenteed combos. Thinking about yoru opponents reaction every step of the way through a 5 hit continuation requires much more thinking then a 5 hit GUARENTEED MUSCLE REFLEX COMBO that your opponent can not escape.

This is not an opinion, this is a fact. Having to predict every hit for 5 hits requires MUCH MORE THOUGHT then 5 guarenteed hits.

Seriously, theres no way you can not understand this.
Look at the sentence, its a fact. Theres nothing you can disagree with. The same combo not working every time in the same situation, having to adapt to your opponent differently EVEN IF ITS THE SAME SITUATION requires MORE THINKING then if the combo is guarenteed in the same situation.

How do you not understand?

I feel this should be addressed because it's so stupid. First of all, there are very few guaranteed combos in melee and most of them only work if your opponent messes up their DI. You should know that; I should not have had to say it. Unless you're shiz or m2k, most of the time you will only get two or three hits off a combo, and those are from following DI/techs.

Second how does it take more thought to play 50 games of rock paper scissors than 30? It's really dumb to say either game takes more thought. Really they're probably both the same.

 

[hungrybox]

.....grow up.

 

[Daysoo]

I like smash bros. (64, Melee, and Brawl.)
I hate how busted it is sometimes. (Don't use your shield. Push Down+B for stocks. Dthrow to Dthrow takes skill.)
All three games are awesome and tons of fun though. (Yoshi eats shields for breakfast. ColBol falcon punches the world. Jab to turn around forward smash with Snake.)
That said, you know what else is fun?
Mafia and Guilty Gear. (Let's kill Alpha. Hopbuster to hopbuster to j.S Airbuster.)
My point: There isn't one. But games are supposed to be fun. If you don't like them, don't play them.

 

[h1roshi]

ok seriously though.

MELEE *****!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

end of discussion.

and no one is gonne give a logical explanation for anything. they dont care, and they just dont wanna hear it. (brawl support that is). just saying. your effort was noble but its not gonna change anything.

-hiro

 

[MusicalMike]

I like smash bros. (64, Melee, and Brawl.)
I hate how busted it is sometimes. (Don't use your shield. Push Down+B for stocks. Dthrow to Dthrow takes skill.)
All three games are awesome and tons of fun though. (Yoshi eats shields for breakfast. ColBol falcon punches the world. Jab to turn around forward smash with Snake.)
That said, you know what else is fun?
Mafia and Guilty Gear. (Let's kill Alpha. Hopbuster to hopbuster to j.S Airbuster.)
My point: There isn't one. But games are supposed to be fun. If you don't like them, don't play them.

Desu wins.

 

[NES n00b]

Without hitstun, it is more about just getting a hit in instead of what you want to hit with and how to continue on with the punishment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVkDHsiqn8Y As you can see you mostly used the safe moves (ftilt, jab, grenades, and c4) then use uptilt for the kill, and while that also happens in alot of games with hitstun too, there is a still a little more thought on what move you want to get off to get the most punishment of the situation. In a game with hitstun however, there are certain moves that lead into the kind of damage or positions you want and they all have a different risk reward ratio.

Ok so let's look at a situation that is only difference that is reward. So you have a regular rock, paper, scissors but if you win with rock you get 10 points, paper you get 6, and scissors you get 4 first to 20 wins. You want to get rock, but so does your opponent and he knows that you want it too. Since you know he wants rock too, you might think i can get an easy 6 points if he chooses rock, but he could choose scissors over and over if i do that. So in essence it is a game of "unequal options" and this leads to more thought than a game with equal risk and reward. This is not going into more variables such as risk compared to the reward or what kind of reward you can get.

For example, in Melee if I was falcon against sheik at 0% on YS and i grabbed her in the middle of the stage i have a couple options I can

1A). throw sheik up and go for regrab if she doesn't DI which of course leads to about the same situation as before or tech chase her on a platform if she DIed there where she will have limited options but I will have very little reward if she tech rolls to away from me as I will only get an upair after that and she will have an almost neutral position after that

1B) I can throw her down and go for a tech chase while she does have more options in this regard of escaping especially with her good tech roll I could get a stomp or another grab. If I get the grab it leads to 1A except if I got her near the edge she will have little room to move which makes it harder for her to escape and I might be able to get an early edgeguard. I can knee which will do more damage and more knockback then a grab which makes it harder for her to come back but harder to hit with since grab allows more room for error this is also true about stomps.

2. If I get the stomp, I can get a nair, a knee, a jab, a grab, or wait for her to tech which gives me the same situation as 1b. except positioning.

2a. If I go for the nair, if she DIs away she is of the stage which might let me land something else to push her further or wait and just edgeguard her attempt to return. Keep in mind I can choose to hit her hard or try to keep the combo going. If she is not near the edge the situation goes to 1b. if she DIs up I can maybe hit her again and keep the combo going or hit her as far as i can resulting on an easier edgeguard attempt.

2b. Knee hits her farther away for an easier edgeguard attempt or maybe to get the most damage if you know you couldn't keep the combo going and if she Smash DI's up you can maybe get another knee or move if she is in the right position. 2c. jab leads into grab leads into 1a with better position 2d. Grab leads into 1a.

Now keep in mind the above example is without keeping into consideration using knee, dair, bair, or nair which is pretty viable to hit with.There is alot of variables associated with trying to take advantage of hitstun. Not to say that barwl doesn't have some of these descisions to make, but they are much simpler. Not only that but the hitstun in Melee makes the offense and defense aspect more balanced to as attacking might yield a higher reward while playing defensively is safer but doesn't get as high as a reward. Melee still is pretty defensive game in a good amount of cases though.

TLDR; hitstun is awesomesauce.

Posting this again cause typing this up took too long.

 

[hungrybox]

brian you changed your avatar :D

 

[h1roshi]

cuz brawl is gay.

-hiro

 

[ranmaru]

Shiek is sexy. Oh wait D:

 

[harriettheguy]

has anyone talked about evasive/movement options and platforms?

 

[hungrybox]

*edits everything*

 

[Rx-]

I like Brawl Doubles and Melee Singles.

I like throwing items better in Melee.

I like Z-Canceling(N64) better than L-Canceling or No-Canceling(Brawl).

I like being able to grab the ledge backwards(Brawl).

I like DK in all three games.

I like Captain Falcon in Melee and 64, but not in Brawl.

I like Fox and Falco's shines better in Melee than in Brawl.

I think that Pichu is unnecessary, and that there's no need for having both Dr. Mario AND Mario. One is enough.

I like Mewtwo and Lucario.

I like Snake and Wario and Dedede, but I don't like MK very much.

I think Snake and MK should be weaker, and Wario's Up-B should go a little farther.

 

[Rx-]

internet made me double post.

 

[Kamano]

You know I just realized something


I realized just how much the Brawl vs Melee argument is identical to the argument non-competitive smash players get into with competitive players about "no items, fox only, final destination" etc.

Identical in retardedness, and having way too much effort being put into bashing something you don't have to participate in.

 

[Frames]

john ur dumb doc rules plus doc and mario are way different

everything else was kewl tho



edit - the obvious logical response to this whole argument

"stuped ghey ****ign helo kity barbie adn ken sesame street pu$$y poly pokit wimpy kidy ghey stupid brotharz braul"

 

[Radical Dreamer]

Heh, not even from this region.

Both are good games, I am sorry some Melee players suck at Brawl, but it's not my problem, and it really is getting tiring to hear the same maybe five Melee players who are garbage at Brawl constantly saying how ****ty of a game Brawl is.

Haven't played PC Chris, M2K or Cort in Brawl yet, but I hear they're at least okay at it. Plank's been placing pretty well in Brawl tournaments too.

I am not a Nintendo fan at all and I first played Melee in March or February of 2007. I spent about two months just drilling myself to get L-canceling and wavedashing down deeply enough into muscle memory. I've yet to make it out of pools at any big tournament, and I've never done better than 1-2 at even small local tournaments. I'm still less technical and a weaker player overall compared to the overwhelming majority of people who have ever played Melee competitively. I got 3 stocked by my friend, who got 3 stocked by MrGanondorf, who got 3 stocked by Snap, who got 3 stocked by DSF, who got 3 stocked by Azen. It's only been in the past month or so that I've been able to regard myself as even being a serious competitor, and I will probably be an underdog player for as long as I'm alive. I was actually really looking forward to Brawl because I was frustrated about not being able to keep up in Melee because I started so late.

Too bad it turned out to be such a horrible game. If Melee had never existed, I would never have had any interest in Smash Brothers altogether.

Melee is as perfect as I need it to be, and could probably only be better if it had Angelina Jolie. But that's what Street Fighter 4 is for.

 

[Miharu]

Just found it ironic that this self-glorified speech really did nothing but exacerbate the already existing tension. And after Equi saw that he wasn't getting anywhere with the topic, he just ditched the topic and left it without another word.

Then you have his attempt to preach about the immaturity of "melee enthusiasts."

What a joke.

Also, most, if not all of those who play Melee at a high level ("pro/semipro") are capable of playing Brawl at a equally high level. It's just a matter of dedicating the time to improving at Brawl (and most deem the time better spent elsewhere).

 

[MuraRengan]

Op talks about Melee players not knowing about brawl's metagame, yet he posts things about Melee's metagame that aren't true.

Stupid topic, stupid people.

 

[Equi]

Just found it ironic that this self-glorified sp eech really did nothing but exacerbate the already existing tension. And after Equi saw that he wasn't getting anywhere with the topic, he just ditched the topic and left it without another word.

Then you have his attempt to preach about the immaturity of "melee enthusiasts."

What a joke.

The existing tension? That will never be gone. It'll be there forever, as long as 2 games are there, you should know this.

Where are you going with your immaturity line? Who or what are you trying to relate that to?

The point of this thread should be obvious, do you really think i set out to change everyones views? That i really think that by posting on a forum im going to get everyone to agree with me just because i put thought in my posts and others dont? You sir are missing the point.

If you really care, reread the thread.
If you dont, then dont.

No one is saying they are incapable of getting good at brawl, where did you pull this from? lol.

Mura the difference between me being wrong about melee (which im sure i was close if not dead-on) and others being wrong about brawl is that one is negative while the other isnt. Ive said that multiple times.

 

[Miharu]

The existing tension? That will never be gone. It'll be there forever, as long as 2 games are there, you should know this.

Where are you going with your immaturity line? Who or what are you trying to relate that to?

The point of this thread should be obvious, do you really think i set out to change everyones views? That i really think that by posting on a forum im going to get everyone to agree with me just because i put thought in my posts and others dont? You sir are missing the point.

If you really care, reread the thread.
If you dont, then dont.

No, you posted to use this as a forum to express your frankly, worthless, opinion. Can you not read? I said nothing about the tension except that this cute little thread of yours does NOTHING to attempt to absolve the problem. It does the opposite.

I'll leave it to you to deduce the rest.

Scratch the immaturity line, it's not worth explaining.

People who only like Melee should only play Melee, people who only like Brawl should only play Brawl. People who like both should play both. Tourneys exist for both games, so no johns.

Both are good games, I am sorry some Melee players suck at Brawl, but it's not my problem, and it really is getting tiring to hear the same maybe five Melee players who are garbage at Brawl constantly saying how ****ty of a game Brawl is.

Someone's saying that "Melee players suck at Brawl."

 

[QDVS]

All this thread is, is one guy saying "*quote* can you not read?"...then the original poster responds with "*quote* can YOU not read?"!!!

lololol

 

[hungrybox]

Now OOSers are coming in to try and clarify this mess.

 

[Rx-]

All this thread is, is one guy saying "*quote* can you not read?"...then the original poster responds with "*quote* can YOU not read?"!!!

lololol

Can YOU NOT READ?!?!?!?!?!

WHATS YOUR PROBLEM!?

 

[hungrybox]

All this thread is, is one guy saying "*quote* can you not read?"...then the original poster responds with "*quote* can YOU not read?"!!!

lololol

wow **** by royalty

see what i has done there

 

[Equi]

No, you posted to use this as a forum to express your frankly, worthless, opinion. Can you not read? I said nothing about the tension except that this cute little thread of yours does NOTHING to attempt to absolve the problem. It does the opposite.

I'll leave it to you to deduce the rest.

Scratch the immaturity line, it's not worth explaining.



Someone's saying that "Melee players suck at Brawl."

Im 100% sure that this thread accomplished what it needed to. One part of which is to show just how stupid some people in the community really are. I do find it hilarious that you are quick to say my opinion is worthless as if yours is on some higher level then mine? Or anyone's is higher then anyone's else? It would be hard for the problem to get any worse then it is, no one confronts it. Everyone just lets it slide here or there but when someone posts back its "this is pointless".

Feel free to explain the immaturity line, or maybe you'll that it didnt make sense in the first place.

I guess i should not of literally said no one, as i really only meant that I (myself) am not saying that anyone in particular is bad at brawl. Anyone can get good at brawl (or melee) if they are willing to put time into it.

 

[FlatSoda]

game's are meant to be played, competitively or not.
we know there's a handful of people that think they're the shlt in these games that haven't even heard of smashboards or any sort of tech skill.

The ever-so-hateful Melee community is here to stay, (no offense, but the Melee community is pretty strong with what they say.) and the Ban-Happy Brawl community is here to linger.

Regardless, it's only going to drive people apart based on self-made opinions on these two games.

None of these games are going to leave the scene anytime soon.
But when Nintendo's case on the Ban on GameCube and Classic Controllers, (copyright infringement of some sort, or some patent shlt, I don't remember.) How are we going to play Melee in a few years when Controllers are ever so hard to get? Will we be stuck with Brawl and the WiiMotes?

I can only stress this enough, because Melee kills the shlt out of a controller ( ).
Anyway, Both are here to stay, and both supporting communities.

 

[NES n00b]

Im 100% sure that this thread accomplished what it needed to. One part of which is to show just how stupid some people in the community really are. I do find it hilarious that you are quick to say my opinion is worthless as if yours is on some higher level then mine? Or anyone's is higher then anyone's else? It would be hard for the problem to get any worse then it is, no one confronts it. Everyone just lets it slide here or there but when someone posts back its "this is pointless".

Feel free to explain the immaturity line, or maybe you'll that it didnt make sense in the first place.

I guess i should not of literally said no one, as i really only meant myself.

Good job picking and choosing posts really. This is why no one gives you logical posts. Still the irony is hilarious.

Well this thread accomplished what it was made to do IE. Troll. I got some laughs and I finally put down the reason why hitstun is good somewhere.

 

[Equi]

Good job picking and choosing posts really. This is why no one gives you logical posts.

Well this thread accomplished what it was made to do IE. Troll. I got some laughs and I finally put down the reason why hitstun is good somewhere.

I'll respond to you, it takes longer to respond to longer posts lol.
I responded to the ones i read first.

 

[FlatSoda]

I'll respond to you, it takes longer to respond to longer posts lol.
I responded to the ones i read first.

please respond.

 

[Gingerr]

The only thing I've REALLY learned from this thread, is that apparently no one on smashboards knows how to read.

Trufax. . .I guess?

 

[Zergum]

GJ creating an arena of gay where brawl bashers can lick on eachothers nuts, and you can try to post erudite lame responses and get flammmmmeeeeeed.

 

[Miharu]

Im 100% sure that this thread accomplished what it needed to. One part of which is to show just how stupid some people in the community really are. I do find it hilarious that you are quick to say my opinion is worthless as if yours is on some higher level then mine? Or anyone's is higher then anyone's else?

Your opinion's worth is really based on how you go about presenting it. Present it in an idiotic fashion, and you'll consequently get some undesirable results. At the same time, you can't really expect to put out your opinion (backed by some flawed/shoddy logic) and expect it not to be bashed.

It would be hard for the problem to get any worse then it is, no one confronts it. Everyone just lets it slide here or there but when someone posts back its "this is pointless".

Except for the fact that you're placing all of the blame solely on the Melee community while portraying everyone else as being "guilt-free." You're not exactly being constructive or "positive" here.

Feel free to explain the immaturity line, or maybe you'll that it didnt make sense in the first place.

No, I just realized that it wasn't worth the time and effort to explain such a concept to an individual who's unable to grasp the fact that everyone's opinion doesn't hold the same weight.

GJ creating an arena of gay where brawl bashers can lick on eachothers nuts, and you can try to post erudite lame responses and get flammmmmeeeeeed.

Do forums exist for any other purpose?

 

[FlatSoda]

edit: BAWWW ED LINKS B&.

 

[Equi]

Without hitstun, it is more about just getting a hit in instead of what you want to hit with and how to continue on with the punishment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVkDHsiqn8Y As you can see you mostly used the safe moves (ftilt, jab, grenades, and c4) then use uptilt for the kill, and while that also happens in alot of games with hitstun too, there is a still a little more thought on what move you want to get off to get the most punishment of the situation. In a game with hitstun however, there are certain moves that lead into the kind of damage or positions you want and they all have a different risk reward ratio.

Ok so let's look at a situation that is only difference that is reward. So you have a regular rock, paper, scissors but if you win with rock you get 10 points, paper you get 6, and scissors you get 4 first to 20 wins. You want to get rock, but so does your opponent and he knows that you want it too. Since you know he wants rock too, you might think i can get an easy 6 points if he chooses rock, but he could choose scissors over and over if i do that. So in essence it is a game of "unequal options" and this leads to more thought than a game with equal risk and reward. This is not going into more variables such as risk compared to the reward or what kind of reward you can get.

For example, in Melee if I was falcon against sheik at 0% on YS and i grabbed her in the middle of the stage i have a couple options I can

1A). throw sheik up and go for regrab if she doesn't DI which of course leads to about the same situation as before or tech chase her on a platform if she DIed there where she will have limited options but I will have very little reward if she tech rolls to away from me as I will only get an upair after that and she will have an almost neutral position after that

1B) I can throw her down and go for a tech chase while she does have more options in this regard of escaping especially with her good tech roll I could get a stomp or another grab. If I get the grab it leads to 1A except if I got her near the edge she will have little room to move which makes it harder for her to escape and I might be able to get an early edgeguard. I can knee which will do more damage and more knockback then a grab which makes it harder for her to come back but harder to hit with since grab allows more room for error this is also true about stomps.

2. If I get the stomp, I can get a nair, a knee, a jab, a grab, or wait for her to tech which gives me the same situation as 1b. except positioning.

2a. If I go for the nair, if she DIs away she is of the stage which might let me land something else to push her further or wait and just edgeguard her attempt to return. Keep in mind I can choose to hit her hard or try to keep the combo going. If she is not near the edge the situation goes to 1b. if she DIs up I can maybe hit her again and keep the combo going or hit her as far as i can resulting on an easier edgeguard attempt.

2b. Knee hits her farther away for an easier edgeguard attempt or maybe to get the most damage if you know you couldn't keep the combo going and if she Smash DI's up you can maybe get another knee or move if she is in the right position. 2c. jab leads into grab leads into 1a with better position 2d. Grab leads into 1a.

Now keep in mind the above example is without keeping into consideration using knee, dair, bair, or nair which is pretty viable to hit with.There is alot of variables associated with trying to take advantage of hitstun. Not to say that barwl doesn't have some of these descisions to make, but they are much simpler. Not only that but the hitstun in Melee makes the offense and defense aspect more balanced to as attacking might yield a higher reward while playing defensively is safer but doesn't get as high as a reward. Melee still is pretty defensive game in a good amount of cases though.

TLDR; hitstun is awesomesauce.

Posting this again cause typing this up took too long.

Not going to go into the character specific stuff (unless you seriously want me to, but we would seriously never leave this thread if we both got deep into characters)

I think the mindset you have is that hitstun is required for a good competitive game, when its not. Being able to space better then your opponent to land more safe moves is a skill in its own and requires thought and knowledge of your character. Though snake is a bad example of follow-ups because hes pretty powerful, think of a character like wario, wolf or mk. Wario for example wants to try to punish with bite as often as possible, as it always leaves him with the advantage, and against some characters another free hit that still leaves him with stage advantage + better positioning and such. Its the same for Wolf's Dthrow and pretty much all of MKs attacks (lol). Despite the lack of hitstun, these attacks still leave the attacker at the better advantage for a followup.

Brawl is not only landing your safe moves, and thats what im trying to point out. There are plenty of moves (like the ones i listed and many more) that leave the attacker at the advantage through positioning. Some even set up for kills like snake's Dthrow.

Brawl is not just poking and running, knowing how to take advantage of every hit is part of the metagame.

 

[Equi]

Your opinion's worth is really based on how you go about presenting it. Present it in an idiotic fashion, and you'll consequently get some undesirable results. At the same time, you can't really expect to put out your opinion (backed by some flawed/shoddy logic) and expect it not to be bashed.



Except for the fact that you're placing all of the blame solely on the Melee community while portraying everyone else as being "guilt-free." You're not exactly being constructive or "positive" here.



No, I just realized that it wasn't worth the time and effort to explain such a concept to an individual who's unable to grasp the fact that everyone's opinion doesn't hold the same weight.



Do forums exist for any other purpose?

Believe me i did not expect to not be bashed. Equi and I were completely aware of what we were walking into and what we would have to deal with. We werent surprised (alright i wont lie some posts surprised us, but not many). Im not placing the blame all the WHOLE Melee community, there are a certain people that do nothing but spread the hate which effects everyone negatively. There are plenty of people who only play melee yet do not bash brawl and i mean no offense to them. Though i agree this method of just making a thread and confronting it may not of been the best idea, it was also the only idea i could come up with. Sitting around waiting for people to just stop being a$$holes wasnt working. So i tried doing something.

If someone puts effort into backing up their opinion, it holds weight to me. Though obviously I dont think people that post non-sense are on the same level as people who actually think when they post, i try to treat everyone equally. Atleast when im trying to argue my side.