A Compromise on MK Legality

[Tesh]

Now I'm sure any player that frequents the competitive Brawl sub-forums has seen a fair share of threads hovering around the MK issue. Alot of blame has been pushed around and alot of suggestions have been made.

Some attack stage legality or stage bans:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=308724
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=307648

Some propose players be character locked to prevent switching to MK:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=301373

A few say there just isn't enough time to deal with his camp game safely:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=304966

[COLLAPSE="I have a different idea in mind..."]

[/COLLAPSE]

Now I know this seems a bit absurd at first. The thought of restricting input usage by character. But consider the benefits.

Mach Tornado

A move that almost seems to break all the rules. Improve his aerial mobility, increases recovery, tremendous priority, beats spotdodges while being extremely damaging to shields. Adds insult to injury in many of his easiest matchups and drastically shifts a few others. Imagine a Metaknight with an actual slow air speed. No more Uair to Nado kills.

Drill Rush

Metaknight's seemingly endless and unstoppable recovery. Watch as he flies from the very edge of the blast zone and grabs the ledge. A last chance momentum cancel, should he take a particularly strong hit. Imagine a metaknight that can't dair you into the bottom corners of the screen and recover even after expending all of his jumps and glide.


Dimensional Cape

All enforceability issues with EDC now solved. Perfect planking now extremely vulnerable to falling projectiles. Perhaps MKs LGL can be in line with the rest of the cast with reduced options.

Shuttle Loop

Metaknight rises in a powerful arc and finishes up with a glide. MK's fearsome shuttle loop. An OoS option with deadly power, invincibility, anti air and extremely flexible ending lag. In the air Shuttle Loop is an unrivaled gimping tool. Powerful stagespikes at 0%, easily deadzoning characters under 70%. Another powerful asset to his planking game. Imagine a Metaknight with a slower recovery, only 1 glide and a less oppressive edgeguard game.

Imagine MK without the limitless offstage options.
Imagine MK without the spammy shield poking nonsense.
Imagine MK that is vulnerable offstage and only has 1 shot at scrooging.
Imagine MK susceptible to shield pressure.
Imagine MK weakened to juggles and projectiles.

Imagine Metaknight without specials.

Imagine MK without....

 

[Chuee]

Obvious troll

 

[John12346]

Just for the record, Brawl won't let you create a control scheme that doesn't have a button or stick assigned to Specials. The same applies to Attack and Shield, if memory serves...

 

[Tesh]

Just for the record, Brawl won't let you create a control scheme that doesn't have Specials assigned to something. Same for Attack and Shield, if memory serves...

Wrong, I often play B-free MK in friendlies on wifi. I know you can definitely remove special from your controls.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

I'm surprised a thread about this hasn't been made before...unless it has

An interesting idea but lots of people are probably going to give this an instant no considering it imposes a heavy surgical nerf to MK which will equal either ' unfair' or 'might as well ban MK' responses

You could also argue that it doesn't alter MK's planking or that you have to faff about with controller schemes and this may increase tourney time (what if someone wants to use MK 1st game but not the 2nd?)

I'm just throwing stuff out there - imo the biggest arguement against this will be that if you have to ban MK from using Special moves (or any move at all) for balance, you might as well ban him outright


Also you didn't put up a picture of taking Specials off with the Wii Remote
Also also, imagine MK without a red B - I could just use a controller other than the Gamecube one :>

 

[Max Ketchum]

...

ROOOOOOOOFL

Just ban him.

 

[John12346]

Wrong, I often play B-free MK in friendlies on wifi. I know you can definitely remove special from your controls.

Yeah, I just checked. It just warns you that you haven't assigned all of the controls; I had mistakenly thought it doesn't let you save the configurations.

On that note, let the discussion begin! ...I guess.

 

[WindMajor]

This trolling belongs in the Social group, bro.

I like the pictures though.

 

[WindMajor]

Temporarily unlocked.

I'll allow this just once, so don't mess it up guys.



Metaknight without a (B) button.

Go.

 

[Tesh]

Thank you very much Twinkie.

Please stay on topic guys. This is a serious thread.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

There is nothing wrong with MK. Everyone just needs to get better

 

[Le vieux lapin]

What is this tesh? I thought you supported MK?

I would say ban the nasty little bat, but if we banned him
than why not ban diddy, or IC? It would go on forever.

Much as I hate to admit it,players just have to adapt.
He can lose to any charecter. Ask Zigsta.

 

[Kuro~]

Wow i can't believe i'm still seeing the diddy, snake, IC, etc. argument...*sigh*


On topic...

Many characters would now go even w/ or beat mk if this limitation was enacted. It's funny how drastic a change a small red button can bring

 

[Tesh]

MK could probably lose to quite a few characters without his specials. It would be nearly impossible to kill Snake early, He wouldn't have the speed to approach quickly through the air for a punish. His juggle game would be weaker without shuttle loop to hard punish anyone trying to slip by on his sides.

 

[Nike.]

I didn't read anything and just scrolled through the pics.

I'm hyped.

 

[Ripple]

There is nothing wrong with MK. Everyone just needs to get better

it's funny, knowing that if anyone argues this statement. you wouldn't respond in fear of getting infractions and possibly a ban due to your inability to argue.

I know you were warned by the Admins. I would suggest you stop posting, trying to start something unless you learned how not to strawman

 

[infiniteV115]

I think taking out all 4 is overdoing it a bit (not that I support this idea at all yet; haven't really developed a stance yet). Tornado and SL can be taken out because they're VERY good moves, and help to balance him quite a bit. Even at that point you can stop, but I suppose you can take out DC as well (planking is pretty much its only purpose). But I think taking out Drill Rush is an unnecessary nerf.

 

[PieDisliker]

This is actually an incredibly original idea. I like it. o_o

I still think the MK has potential because he can still take advantage of his multiple jumps/good general aerial moveset. I think I might actually try practicing MK without B for fun now. I don't see people taking this serious in tournaments but hey, I could see it happening in a few (although not as many as MK banned tourneys.)

 

[Doc King]

The idea doesn't look bad to try to balance the game, but I think if we are always trying to make so many restrictions off of this guy and if the more things in Brawl we add to competitive brawl, mk just gets extremely better than the other characters, mk should just be banned.

Restrictions are not working out, mk still ***** with these restrictions like the ledge grab limit and the banning of the infinite and extended dimensional cape.

 

[Exceladon City]

I've definitely lost to nothing but nado. It wasn't cool. Especially when you can only space moves so well for so long before you get eaten alive by nado.

 

[Mr-R]

So how is he gonna recover then ?

 

[Tesh]

So how is he gonna recover then ?

Like Jigglypuff.

 

[Arcansi]

So how is he gonna recover then ?

Glide

Six Jumps.

Like Jigglypuff.

With a glide.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I don't see how this is any different from starting him off with a % handicap which is also stupid

 

[Arcansi]

I don't see how this is any different from starting him off with a % handicap which is also stupid

One removes his options.

The other gives him less room to get punished.

Are you incapable of basic logical analysis/comparison? Serious question.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I meant as far as arbitrary rules go.

 

[Alien Vision]

If you strip him of these options, he really isn't ''MK'' anymore.

I suggest you to realise that we are stuck with an OP character, or be a man and ban him and pick up other mains.

/Thread

 

[_Kadaj_]

This thread is such a joke lmfao

 

[Arcansi]

I meant as far as arbitrary rules go.

How are they arbitrary?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

How are they arbitrary?

How do we really know that the problem (not that there is a problem) with MK is his special moves?

 

[Sephiroths Masamune]

Like Jigglypuff.

Where is jiggs again?

 

[Arcansi]

How do we really know that the problem (not that there is a problem) with MK is his special moves?

1. Try not to contradict yourself within your own post to make your opinion seem more apparent/out there, you just look like you should be arguing something else.

2. Without testing? We have theorycrafting. (See the WHOLE ORIGINAL POST, which you kindly decided to ignore.)

 

[Jack Kieser]

How are they arbitrary?

ar·bi·trar·yAdjective/ˈärbiˌtrerē/
1. Based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system.

In this particular case, Tesh's suggested rule isn't actually arbitrary, since it follows an internal logic and stems from a specific complaint about MK: his air mobility / recovery options (with a bit of "early gimp" thrown in, as per the Mach Tornado section). This is actually less arbitrary than a LGL, for instance, because it's:

* Discreet (either specials are able to be used or not, unlike a LGL, which has to have a number of ledge grabs decided upon in advance)
* Enforceable (it's rather easy to make a "Meta Knight" controller option on each Wii, and have MKs always use it. Hell, you could even make two, one with Tap Jump on and one with it off. And thanks to tags, we always know if MKs are using their prescribed controller setting).
* Warranted (Note: this is debatable, but it is more warranted than a LGL. LGLs apply to the whole cast when few, if any, other characters really require them. This would only apply to MK, and it is easy to only apply it to MK, so it is, by it's very nature, more warranted than LGLs).

I want to make clear, I'm not arguing for or against Tesh's proposed rule. I'm just clearing up Jebus' obviously and demonstrably incorrect assertion that this rule is more arbitrary than LGLs (or that it's arbitrary at all).

 

[SaveMeJebus]

ar·bi·trar·yAdjective/ˈärbiˌtrerē/
1. Based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system.

In this particular case, Tesh's suggested rule isn't actually arbitrary, since it follows an internal logic and stems from a specific complaint about MK: his air mobility / recovery options (with a bit of "early gimp" thrown in, as per the Mach Tornado section). This is actually less arbitrary than a LGL, for instance, because it's:

* Discreet (either specials are able to be used or not, unlike a LGL, which has to have a number of ledge grabs decided upon in advance)
* Enforceable (it's rather easy to make a "Meta Knight" controller option on each Wii, and have MKs always use it. Hell, you could even make two, one with Tap Jump on and one with it off. And thanks to tags, we always know if MKs are using their prescribed controller setting).
* Warranted (Note: this is debatable, but it is more warranted than a LGL. LGLs apply to the whole cast when few, if any, other characters really require them. This would only apply to MK, and it is easy to only apply it to MK, so it is, by it's very nature, more warranted than LGLs).

I want to make clear, I'm not arguing for or against Tesh's proposed rule. I'm just clearing up Jebus' obviously and demonstrably incorrect assertion that this rule is more arbitrary than LGLs (or that it's arbitrary at all).

Why not remove his ability to use A attacks? Doing this removes his perfect planking.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Because, Jebus, his PPlanking is not his primary issue (at least, as Tesh is arguing): his air mobility, ungimpable recovery, and early kill potential via U-air -> Nado is. Note: Tesh already countered your post in advance by claiming that removing his specials makes his PPlanking more susceptible to dropped items vis-a-vis removal of Down-B invincibility.

So, simply put, removing A attacks alters his PPlanking only, while removing Specials alters MUCH more. Thus, not arbitrary.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Because, Jebus, his PPlanking is not his primary issue (at least, as Tesh is arguing): his air mobility, ungimpable recovery, and early kill potential via U-air -> Nado is. Note: Tesh already countered your post in advance by claiming that removing his specials makes his PPlanking more susceptible to dropped items vis-a-vis removal of Down-B invincibility.

So, simply put, removing A attacks alters his PPlanking only, while removing Specials alters MUCH more. Thus, not arbitrary.

Down b was never a problem. It's an instant SD if you grab the ledge. Taking away his A attacks or giving him a % hadicap basically does what this is trying to do which is limit MK . Why should we choose this option over the others?

 

[IAmHero]

Well this is the most ridiculous thread I've posted in since I've joined this forum. Banning MK altogether would make more sense than giving him an absurd handicap.

 

[Alien Vision]

^ THISSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS OMG THISSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

omg

 

[OverLade]

I don't know what's worse, the proposition or people saying it would be a good idea...

 

[Alien Vision]

^ THISSSSSSSSSSSSS TOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO YES!!!!! *Orgasms* THISSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS