Zelda+Sheik Matchup Listing

[ADHD]

Sheik's dair = broken

It has WAAAAAY too much priority

 

[popsofctown]

shhhh...... gosh, you're gonna get it banned Chrome.

 

[DanGR]

As i have recently discovered, you can't use fair instead of nair. You should remember this DanGR i was complaining the other day about it. Either fair has landing lag (i should know this piece of trivia for sure) or fair doesn't create enough shieldstun. Either way, Olimar can punish shielded fair->jab with a jab of his own.

You can still use fair. If I remember correctly, you were complaining about the small lag frames on your fair just before you hit the ground that you thought were nonexistant.

That's completely different from a SHfair>jab. A SHfair won't suffer any landing lag if you autocancel it.(similar to ganon's rising SHdair) If you SHff and fair just before you hit the ground, you will have lag, and it will probably give me enough time to shield grab. If you SH and fair at the height of the jump, you won't suffer from any lag, and you'll be able to pull off that wicked approach. >_>

Edit: Now nair>jab is different. For this, you can SHffnair>jabs.


Edit: Ankoku, you mixed Zelda and Sheik v Olimar.

 

[popsofctown]

If i use fair really early (can i? you're a ******), then the sheildstun will be earlier, and you can probably still shield grab or jab me.


Let's talk about Marth. I think it's like, 7:3 in Sheik's favor. Sheik is really really fast, so Marth's down B doesn't work well because she can't be easily predicted. Sheik racks better, because she has her ftilt combo. Marth's only combo is Dancing Blade, and the first swipe is slow so it's not really as good as ftilt. Marth isn't really a good edgeguarder against Sheik, so Sheik gets to live long and prosper. And of course, Sheik outcamps Marth, and Marth has to approach somehow.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

@ Mmac, I use Yoshi as my secondary and I know about the Grab Release spike, and it is definitely something to be feared if the situation ever arises, so long as Yoshi knows. I personally have no fighting experience against Yoshi, but since I use him, I am definitely familiar with him. (Some reason I can't get it to work when I practice it XP)

Yoshi-Armored aerials are a pain if being chased up the screen, I almost fear I have to airdodge my way down rather than clash with a Yoshi rising at me. Needles are greater than eggs but in the air, eggs can force a reaction so Yoshi can lead to something else. I have never ever had to deal with DR (Dragonic Reverse) yet so I'm sure that could be a major pain! I want to agree that Yoshi has a slightly easier time killing but then Sheik still has Zelda, and Zelda has a better time with Yoshi when it comes to killing.

 

[choknater]

I think everyone should be thankful. DanGR is teaching us how to beat Olimar. I'm listening intently.

About Yoshi: I think it's all a matter of knowing the way Yoshi moves. IMO, the best way to figure that out is to learn how to play Yoshi yourself. Knowing the physics of his double jump and recovery make it easier for you to expect what he will do and space him. In this case, Sheiks bair is a godsend.

Spoiler

Then again, I always say that. Bair is my favorite move.

For example, if he tries to hit you with a rising nair, counter with a quick aerial.

If he tries to approach with bair, he can still uair or nair after the tail swipes even in a short hop, so watch out for that extra hit before you counter.

If he tries to spam eggs, dash attack, needle, or DACUS will stop him easily.

IMO, Sheik is a little too fast for Yoshi to handle, and it's an understatement to say that Zelda edgeguards him well. Sheik's priority in her bair/nair contest many of Yoshi's moves, so Sheik can win in the air AS LONG AS SHE KNOWS WHAT TO EXPECT. (Playing against a Yoshi without any knowledge of how Yoshi moves can be suicidal.)

Oh, and like that Yoshi guy said, he can grab release spike. Yeah, just don't go near the edge? Yoshi's dash grab comes out fast, so just be weary. Against Yoshi, I really wouldn't be shielding a lot anyway, just attacking the whole time, lol.

 

[Zankoku]

DanGR is indeed helpful with the Olimar matchup Anyway,

Let's talk about Marth. I think it's like, 7:3 in Sheik's favor. Sheik is really really fast, so Marth's down B doesn't work well because she can't be easily predicted. Sheik racks better, because she has her ftilt combo. Marth's only combo is Dancing Blade, and the first swipe is slow so it's not really as good as ftilt. Marth isn't really a good edgeguarder against Sheik, so Sheik gets to live long and prosper. And of course, Sheik outcamps Marth, and Marth has to approach somehow.

ftilt combo? Marth can Up+b after the second ftilt. He can Up+B out of rapid jabs. He can Up+B on reaction to pretty much any weak hit Sheik has. Sheik's normal damage-dealing capabilities are severely hindered by Marth's quick fair swipes and, well, Up+B.

 

[choknater]

Wow, Marth has a solid advantage against Sheik, silly popsofctown.

I'd say 60-40 simply because Marth has superior close range ability in every way.

 

[Mmac]

@ Mmac, I use Yoshi as my secondary and I know about the Grab Release spike, and it is definitely something to be feared if the situation ever arises, so long as Yoshi knows. I personally have no fighting experience against Yoshi, but since I use him, I am definitely familiar with him. (Some reason I can't get it to work when I practice it XP)

Yay! We need more Yoshi Mains (or secondaries). I don't see how you cant get it to work as it's as simple as dropping down and spiking her

Needles are greater than eggs but in the air, eggs can force a reaction so Yoshi can lead to something else. I have never ever had to deal with DR (Dragonic Reverse) yet so I'm sure that could be a major pain! I want to agree that Yoshi has a slightly easier time killing but then Sheik still has Zelda, and Zelda has a better time with Yoshi when it comes to killing.

Well, The problem is that Eggs are a Counter-Spam/Camp and a Anti-Air Projectile. Sheik's Needles are not a Spam Projectile. DR is still hard to use and is still in the works. It's hard to put it on the field, even with tons of practise. Yeah, Sheik can turn into Zelda, but then this is Sheik/Zelda we're talking about here. I want to find the matchup between Sheik only is.

About Yoshi: I think it's all a matter of knowing the way Yoshi moves. IMO, the best way to figure that out is to learn how to play Yoshi yourself. Knowing the physics of his double jump and recovery make it easier for you to expect what he will do and space him. In this case, Sheiks bair is a godsend.

Spoiler

Then again, I always say that. Bair is my favorite move.

Know thy enemy is very important. Are you talking about the Bair in general, or as an Edgeguarder. You gotta remember that Yoshi can Airdodge during his Double Jump, making it alot harder for Sheik to intercept. And it seems like everyone loves Bair's . Something about Bair that people seem to like

For example, if he tries to hit you with a rising nair, counter with a quick aerial.

True, but it'll probably equalize at best

If he tries to approach with bair, he can still uair or nair after the tail swipes even in a short hop, so watch out for that extra hit before you counter.

Also true, but he can easily follow it up with a Tilt or Dsmash if he cancels before the 4th hit. We're talking about on the ground right?

If he tries to spam eggs, dash attack, needle, or DACUS will stop him easily.

Yeah, Sheik's speed and needles kinda limits his options of Spamming. You'll only really see him use them tactically or as an edgeguard in this matchup. I wouldn't recomend a DACUS as an approach as Yoshi can easily Pivot Grab it.

IMO, Sheik is a little too fast for Yoshi to handle, and it's an understatement to say that Zelda edgeguards him well.

Zelda? Where she came from?

Sheik's priority in her bair/nair contest many of Yoshi's moves, so Sheik can win in the air AS LONG AS SHE KNOWS WHAT TO EXPECT. (Playing against a Yoshi without any knowledge of how Yoshi moves can be suicidal.)

You probably want to stay under him the entire time though. You don't seem to know about his Uair, which is pretty deadly. Plus you don't really have anything that stable to attack from Below.

Oh, and like that Yoshi guy said, he can grab release spike. Yeah, just don't go near the edge? Yoshi's dash grab comes out fast, so just be weary.

So I'm just a Yoshi guy? ;_ ;

Yeah, I did say it was situational (How I wish I could Chaingrab Sheik), but you also got to remember that when Yoshi does a Running Grab, He'll slide. If he grabs you point blank, then he can actually slide a good length and actually bring you to the ledge. He can grab you quite easily out of your recovery too if his timing is good.

Against Yoshi, I really wouldn't be shielding a lot anyway, just attacking the whole time, lol.

Ditto, lol

 

[Snakeee]

Well you better hold shield when Yoshi approaches from the air o_O

I still can't decide if I would use Sheik/Zelda, or just Zelda in that match up.

 

[Mmac]

Well you better hold shield when Yoshi approaches from the air o_O

I still can't decide if I would use Sheik/Zelda, or just Zelda in that match up.

I would just use Zelda only. She can rack of damage just as good as Sheik against Yoshi, Can defend herself against him better, has a Reflector to Counter Spam, and you're not risking a chance of his Instant Kill Fair.

 

[popsofctown]

Wow, Marth has a solid advantage against Sheik, silly popsofctown.

I'd say 60-40 simply because Marth has superior close range ability in every way.

DanGR said yesterday that he pops up in random threads to talk about his main, but claimed Emblem Lord was even worse. So i posted some obvious lies, just to see if Emblem Lord would pop up.

He didn't.

You're more obsessed with Olimar than Emblem Lord is with Marth, DanGR. I've gone out of the way to prove it now.

I'm not gonna test Mmac. He's cool.

 

[Snakeee]

I would just use Zelda only. She can rack of damage just as good as Sheik against Yoshi, Can defend herself against him better, has a Reflector to Counter Spam, and you're not risking a chance of his Instant Kill Fair.

Yeah, I was leaning towards just Zelda. Pride does much better against my Sheik than Zelda at least.

 

[DanGR]

You're more obsessed with Olimar than Emblem Lord is with Marth, DanGR. I've gone out of the way to prove it now.

lol. I use random characters more than Olimar. you knwo that.

 

[ADHD]

Pit is really annoying, he can just spam the AAA thing or the angel ring alternating and its tough for sheik to get around

 

[-Mars-]

For the Marth discussion going on earlier, his fair also outprioritizes your aerials and he can combo them consecutively. Marth basically takes most of Sheiks bread and butter moves and makes them useless. When I play really good Marth's I find myself having to grab a lot more to rack up damage. Also Ankoku, if you know the Marth is going to up b out of the tilt lock , tilt twice and then do nothing. The Marth will use up b and then you get off a free up smash. You probably already do this, I just think it needs to be mentioned.

 

[Zankoku]

From my experience, I've gotten Up+B'd before I could shield after my second ftilt. It's annoying and I don't bother ftilting Marth at a low % any more unless they have poor reflexes.

 

[Tristan_win]

From my experience, I've gotten Up+B'd before I could shield after my second ftilt. It's annoying and I don't bother ftilting Marth at a low % any more unless they have poor reflexes.

I've never seen a Marth Up+B out of the rapid jabs before...

Anyways you could just ftilt into dsmash and in the later percents ftilt into Nair.

They do the same damage fresh

~shrugs~ I don't feel like checking the frame data but I bet the utilt would also work.

 

[InsomniaK]

can ne1 explain the TL matchup for sheik/zelda?

 

[choknater]

sheik only, sheik annihilates toon link

he's probably the character i have played against the most out of any character

don't rush in recklessly, know the times you can rush in. it's hard to explain this matchup, you just need a LOT of experience against him, just play against toon link over and over so that you know his openings.

he has few openings, and yet he has so many. i dunno if that makes sense... but you'll realize it if you play against him. basically, if you put a solid pressure game on toon link, he has no way of breaking out. hit him before he can pull out bombs or throw boomerangs. shrug off the arrows by power shielding them.

you have to play this matchup very well, but eventually, if you get the hang of it, you will find that toon link really doesn't have a chance at all against sheik. his long range is superior, but your needles are unaffected by anything he throws.

close range, he is good, but a pressure sheik is superior.

difficult to edge guard, but you can get the hang of it. jump backwards and fall down off the stage, try to intercept him with bair. if you can't hit him, go back up and chain hog. if he will hit you out of your edge hog, roll up from the edge and try to hit him as he gets back on. it's a long process of killing him sometimes, and toon link has unexpectedly/impressively good survival/di capabilities.



other than all that... i don't know, the toon link matchup is very hard to explain. there is so much situational stuff that i can't put into words. my greatest advice is just to play against toon link over and over to find out what you can and can't do, and eventually you will find that sheik has a great advantage.

one last thing: stay away from dsmash, and don't DI toward it or you will be gimped, even at 0%

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Toon Link's spot dodge is punishable by chain lock. Also, I would recommend using Zelda for a one-shot KO if you know how to handle her.

 

[demodemo]

wow, choknator stole the words out of my mouth over there with his post about TL

yeah, you are going to find him a bit difficult at first, but once you start playing more conservative your opponent will have trouble doing anything to sheik. don't follow up with grabs in this matchup because the dair is the perfect response. instead, anticipate, or go in with the tip of your bair.

i find i grab him a lot though, and his fsmash really hurts if the second hit connects. (which rarely does)

 

[choknater]

go in with the tip of your bair

this is the best sheik advice i've ever heard

 

[<π]

spaced bair and needles, all you need with sheik I swear.

 

[choknater]

spaced bair and needles, all you need with sheik I swear.

more unbelievably good advice

i can see people are getting better with sheik ^_^

 

[rathy Aro]

more unbelievably good advice

i can see people are getting better with sheik ^_^

lmao. I thought I was being a bad sheik by giving up on fair and spamming bair like I'm playing DDD.

 

[choknater]

never. bair is a much better move

 

[Zankoku]

Okay, I made some uh.. changes. Mostly just me being bored and adding this thing

 

[demodemo]

Hahaha, the sheik/zelda picture is too awesome. who knew the eyes actually lined up like that!

 

[SinkingHigher]

I think you mean "the eye".

Apparently Shelda only has one. Or possibly Zeik? Hm, eitherway she sounds like a ****** hooker.

 

[Mmac]

I thought we agreed on 50-50 for Yoshi vs. Sheik

 

[popsofctown]

no, it's at least 60/40.

At least, that's what it seems when i play DanGR's Yoshi.
Sheik can outcamp Yoshi, so i don't have to approach the pivot grabs, which is part of what makes yoshi good.
The chain is pretty good against Yoshi. You'd think eggs would punish it, but the eggs are so slow that sometimes you can shield them.
Yoshi's jab is vicious though. I hate it. I hate it. It's like peach's. Except it goes "squish squish".

 

[Mmac]

I don't think Sheik can though. Needles are not a spamable projectile, but you can spam one of them. However, lets take a look at this.

Both Yoshi and Sheik throw their projectile at the same time. The needle will hit, but sheik will just shield the egg in time. However, Yoshi will already have thrown another Egg, and if you choose to throw another Needle, you will get hit. So it will be Shield / Hit, Hit / Hit, Shield / Hit, Hit / Hit. Yoshi got hit 4 times while Sheik only got hit twice. However, Yoshi only receives 4% per volley, while Sheik receives 8%, Twice as much. Another note, Sheik should rarely have a full set of needles in this matchup.

And I don't think eggs are slow as hell also. Full Power Horizontal's travel pretty fast actually. Sheik's Tallness doesn't help the matter either

 

[x After Dawn x]

Sheik is 80-20 with Ike?

Honestly, I thought Sheik was at a disadvantage against Ike. I play Sheik very offensively and aggressively, and it seems to be hard to get close to a defensive Ike that likes to abuse his range and priority on his moves. I figured out that playing very campy against him works well in countering him (abusing Ike's lack of speed), but still...that was a change in playing style. Maybe the 80-20 is for people who don't play aggressively?

 

[choknater]

yes. don't run into ike's jabs and stuff. needle him cuz he can't do anything about it, and punish him after he does ANY of his laggy moves. besides nair and jab, pretty much all of his moves can be ninja'd by sheik.

 

[Zankoku]

And I don't think eggs are slow as hell also. Full Power Horizontal's travel pretty fast actually. Sheik's Tallness doesn't help the matter either

Sheik can dash under a lot of projectiles and can crouch under Falco's laser. I don't think you can really make much of a statement about her height since that only applies if she's standing or walking.

 

[Mmac]

Oh yeah, I forgot about her dash -_-

Still say the matchup is even though

 

[popsofctown]

i do: charge->perfect shield->charge->perfect shield->charge ->perfect shield. Then try to offload a full set.

 

[-dMT-]

^^ This is true.

 

[Zankoku]

I'm going to move Yoshi down to even for the two solo matchups, with a +10 in the team's favor. Fair enough?