Zelda+Sheik Matchup Listing

[Zankoku]

How to Read:
The character is obviously which character the matchup is about. The matchup is a bar with a 20-point scale going from -10 to +10 (where +/-10 should never, ever happen in any even somewhat balanced game). Points are easily translatable (0 is 50:50, +2 is 60:40, etc.), and no matchup below +/- 4 is "unwinnable," though 3's will be rather difficult to win. The Sheik matchup is what it looks like to completely avoid using Transform, while the Recommended Matchup is what the best choice would likely be to get an optimal matchup. If you are unable to determine the specifics of handling the matchup with the given approach you may refer to popsofctown's Zelda/Sheik Selection Guide.

A matchup may only be revised if a member from both involved character boards agrees to the new number. Feel free to debate about that number in this thread, or in some thread provided by either this, Zelda, or the mentioned character's character board.

I realize that some matchups might be equally good/bad for Sheik, Zelda, and both. Nevertheless, this is the Sheik boards, so in those situations I'm of course going to recommend using either Sheik or both over Zelda.

DETAILED NUMBER RATINGS:
0 - Even
1 - Slight advantage
2 - Advantage/Soft counter
3 - Clear advantage
4 - Hard counter
5 - Very poor matchup
6 - Extremely poor matchup
7 - Unwinnable in most circumstances
8 - Difficult to take a single stock off
9 - Unwinnable in practically all circumstances
10 - Reserved for vs Mewtwo matchup

Sheik Matchup Summary
Counter Matchups
Fox
Ganondorf

Favorable Matchups
Captain Falcon
Falco
Ike
Link
Lucas
Ness
Pokémon Trainer
Samus
Sonic
Wario
Wolf

Even Matchups
Bowser
King Dedede
Mario
Olimar
Pit
Sheik
Toon Link
Yoshi

Unfavorable Matchups
Diddy Kong
Donkey Kong
Mr. Game & Watch
Jigglypuff
Kirby
Lucario
Luigi
Marth
Meta Knight
Peach
Pikachu
R.O.B.
Snake
Zelda

Countered Matchups
Ice Climbers

 

[Supercakes]

This is good IMO

except

why is Toon Link easy, but ordinary Link favorable?

 

[Squidster]

Ou good list. We need something like this.

Lets try note when zelda would be good vs a bad matchup (and i mean beyond switch -> usmash -> switch back)



And lets start a discussion on all the bad matchups starting with kirby. Heres a few questions that i think should be considered for the characters at the bottom of the list.

1) Reason why the matchup is difficult?
2) Can this character be Ftilt locked?
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=172012
3) General strategies that should be used to make this matchup better?
4) Is this a bad matchup for zelda also?

1) Can't be edgeguarded very well, high priority areals makes it hard to approach, sheik is not the best character to exploit light weight, needles aren't that effective so camping isn't an option.

2) Limited at 15% apparently.

3) I think playing aggressively like sheik normally does is a bad idea vs kirby. Another thing to keep in mind is that approaching with areals is probably a bad idea since kirby will often be floating around ready to counter with his high prioritized areals. I would suggest staying on the ground ready to punish with your smashes or tilts.

4) I don't have a sound opinion here but i don't think so. Zelda's priority on the ground and ability to camp makes her near unapproachable by kirby. Zelda CAN exploit light weight. Probably a good idea to switch.

@above poster

Link is heavier. Heavier is bad for sheik. Either way they are both fairly easy matchups.

 

[Tristan_win]

This is good IMO

except

why is Toon Link easy, but ordinary Link favorable?

Same question, I've never have trouble dealing with the ordinary link while Toon link I've have had troubles with in the past...Mainly because you can't combo him very well with Sheik because of his falling speed but also because his recovery is so difficult to gimp effectively.

Meanwhile link is easier to combo, easier to approach and half the time gimping isn't necessary because of his poor recovery options.

Edit: Also I don't think Sheik has a equal chance of winner against a Snake player of equal skill.

 

[clowsui]

Why is Olimar such a bad matchup? I was under the impression that it was even for Sheik because both ends have trouble getting a kill and both ends can also rack up damage easily...

 

[Unseen_Killa]

This is good IMO

except

why is Toon Link easy, but ordinary Link favorable?

Because, Link is all around easier. Gets trapped in ftilt spam longer, easier to gimp, easier to land hits on.

 

[demodemo]

From what I know, olimar has no trouble getting kills O_o

I think Bowser should be easier, too easy to combo and chase.

Snake should be a harder match up since sheik has trouble KOing and snake is one of the most difficult characters to KO, especially with that recovery.

Pikachu should be further down the even level. While I agree it is even, I find pika harder to fight than characters like say falco.

 

[Cobra]

Perosnally, I dont find Lucas very easy to combat, I would put him as even or the category above, but not easy.

 

[Squidster]

Getting a perfectly accurate list is NOT as productive as coming with strategies vs the tougher matchups.


The difference between easy and favorable is not significant... no list is ever going to be perfect. I vote this thread be dedicated to discussion, not petty arguments on the validation of the list.

 

[KRDsonic]

I think Bowser should be easier, too easy to combo and chase.

I've foughten a bowser at an equal skill as my sheik, trust me, he's not easier. Character good at dammageing but bad at killing vs. character good at killing and hard to kill... You may be able to get him to 200% but he can kill you at 80.


Anyways... I don't really think of Olimar as all that bad for Sheik, Ice Climbers are supposed to counter him, I'm better with Ice Climbers, but I'm better at using sheik against him. They seem more even IMO.

 

[Zankoku]

It's not even at all. Sheik's able to play a strong edgeguarding game, but Olimar wins in both range and priority. Sheik is beaten by zoning in the air, out-camped, can be grabbed before reaching Olimar with ANYTHING on the ground, can't ftilt lock him, and is overall pretty much screwed if the Olimar knows how to abuse the fact that Sheik has no real approach game in the matchup.

I vote this thread be dedicated to discussion, not petty arguments on the validation of the list.

The arguments over the list is what will spark the discussion to determine how to approach matchups.

 

[imdavid]

thanks ankoku, you're always on top of these things

IC CG 0%->Kill SUCKS. IC definitely wins the award of being the most terrible xD i think TL is a bit harder to gimp than regular link and his approach is just more adaptable with his bairs and so forth... he isn't the easiest character i fight against but he is agreeable, i'll say favorable... but meh, maybe i'm just not good at fighting TL's

 

[choknater]

Snake even IMO. Or maybe that is my crapload of Snake experience.
(i also have many opinions that contradict this list but i'm too lazy to voice them. i'll let you young sheik's discover them on your own )

choknater's sheik theory:
any matchup where it seems sheik doesn't have an "approach game" can be conquered by spontaneity.

dash attack is my move baby.

never consider a matchup with sheik impossible.

the only matchup i really consider bad is ice climbers. (probably just cuz i can't pressure them.) anything else is beatable.

 

[imdavid]

but choknater... you are too good for us nubs.. share your wealth of godly knowledge and enlighten us poor mortals...

 

[kouryuuXfighter]

I believe Snake is even. I never really have much trouble with Snake when I use Sheik. Sure Snake is a good character but Sheik can punish Snake effectively. Main reasons:

1. Snake is completely open after almost every attack he throws at you. Just shield and punish accordingly. Sheik can tilt lock a Snake after you block an attack and end the tilt lock with an Up-Smash.

2. Sheik has a better grab range than Snake and her tilts have longer range than his grab. This means if a Sheik spaces effectively then the Snake can't rely on his grabs. He must rely on his other moves which means if he misses, he is screwed (e.g. tilt locks, UpSmash,)

3.Sheik can outcamp Snake with needles. So if you play a campy snake, he will have his work cut out. If a snake decides to approach with a sliding UpSmash, block and punish safely with needles. Very effective and overlooked.

4. Snake is easy to gimp with Fairs ^^

These are the main reasons I have why Sheik and Snake should be even. And all this comes from experience. It took my so long to figure Snake out and now that I have, I feel comfortable playing against one.

 

[Tristan_win]

Snake even IMO. Or maybe that is my crapload of Snake experience.
(i also have many opinions that contradict this list but i'm too lazy to voice them. i'll let you young sheik's discover them on your own )

choknater's sheik theory:
any matchup where it seems sheik doesn't have an "approach game" can be conquered by spontaneity.

dash attack is my move baby.

never consider a matchup with sheik impossible.

the only matchup i really consider bad is ice climbers. (probably just cuz i can't pressure them.) anything else is beatable.

Ice climbers are two *****'s on ice to fight but at least most of us know just how deadly they are and even though not getting grab this time around is more difficult it's still do able to a degree if you don’t **** up.

What I think is sheik hardest match up this time around is Meta knight.

I just can't seem to fight him at all outside of needle camping, which isn’t as effective as I would hope so and if the user known’s how to pressure correctly I’m just screwed.

No reliable approaches, no combos after 30 percent, Final Destination

edit: I'm really to the point that I would either play large sum of money for professional help on how to counter Meta knight or using a completely other character just to fight them.

…Which I’m already starting to do as I am force to use Zelda to even put up a fight against them.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

i think captain falcon is a little bit harder than "easy" haha

also iceys are impossible lol

ALSO i think sheik does alright vs olimar

still in his favor but not enough to put in the same category as meta and iceys lol

 

[ADHD]

How is falco even? He can 0 death sheik with grab to dair, not fun.

 

[Zankoku]

Grab to dair only hits at like.... 50-60%, not nearly enough to spike to a KO, if you save your double jump. You people need to stop jumping into the **** -_-

 

[imdavid]

what do you mean by "you people..." are you making racist comments now ankoku?! XD

well for MK, the only thing i have to offer is that the bair seems to be the only aerial that's safe to use against MK, dunno why, maybe its a slightly DJ hitbox or something... if MK hits the bair with his sword during his fair, nothing really happens *shrugs* maybe i just get lucky with them and that's why i go unpunished, i dunno if it works all the time

 

[jinofcoolnes]

I would put metakinght on even cuz for some reason you can tilt lock him at 0% but once he gets past 35-40 he can break out of it .


Also needles destory his spaceing and if your good at timeing the needles you can messup his recover ( many metakight player tend to guilde to the stage needles force them to have to use thier upb early)

D-smash if faster then his D-smash.


as for the air fairs and uair olny since he can attack over every thing else..(kinda)

Ub when he dash's toward you most of the time the ub comes out beforce can grab/dash attack you.
--------------------

MK is easy when you learn to fight him.

tilt lock him 0-30, camp with needles and Dsmashs until 30-90s,now start going for the kill at around 90s with Usmashs UBs and fair uairs.

 

[Squidster]

Eh, you play bad MKs...

"tilt lock 0-30"
Really not that easy. A good MK will space himself properly with his ridiculous priority, range, and lack of lag that you literally cannot get in with an attack. Walking in and doing Ftilt through a barrage of Fairs is harder than it sounds.

"Camp with needles and Dsmash 30-90"
Needles are highly ineffective vs an aggresive MK. Yeah you'll get a few %'s off... but not 30-90.
Dsmash is a punishing move, not an offensive tactic. It wont work agaisnt someone with long range who just space themselves outside of its range. MK is especially adept at avoiding Dsmash because he can sit right outside its range poke you with a giant sword.

"Go for the kill at 90's with Usmash and UB and Fair Uair"
Fair is terrible vs MK. All his areals out prioritize / outrange it. Uair has prospects but not at 90%. Usmash wont kill unless you get the tip on the top which is not a strategy to rely on, and his recovery is impossible to gimp so a non tippered Usmash will just launch him to the side. Usmash is easy to punish to (cept boost smash!) Up b requires them to mess up as well.

MK is definitely not easy... I switch to zelda for most of the fight. Needles do help with spacing and can mess up his game, Bair is a safe...ish attack to use, grabs and dash attacks are actually not bad since you need a quick move to be able dash into with. Trying to get a kill out of zelda is insane though... definitely not worth it. Take advantage of his light weight, switch to zelda.

 

[ADHD]

I'm practicing with a great meta, and I've found that sheik vs meta is somewhat reasonable once you have experience with him, but its still on his favor.

 

[Tristan_win]

I'm practicing with a great meta, and I've found that sheik vs meta is somewhat reasonable once you have experience with him, but its still on his favor.

Lucky, most of my crew(if you could even called it that) decided to continue to play melee over brawl so I don't get much extended Meta knight practice outside of online play

 

[Gimpyfish62]

actually yeah the metaknight matchup (just like with every other character) becomes a lot easier with experience but it's still a really hard matchup...

metaknight just destroys inexperience - it's much easier as you learn.

still hard though just because of priorities/speed/recovery/edgeguarding etc etc

 

[Squidster]

MK is unique in that he almost always has a hitbox 10 yards away from him up. Once you get used to that you can start fighting him

He's still hard to punish and edgeguard.

Lucky, most of my crew(if you could even called it that) decided to continue to play melee over brawl so I don't get much extended Meta knight practice outside of online play

Lucky.... I don't have a crew so i don't get extended anyone practice outside of online play.

 

[Tristan_win]

MK is unique in that he almost always has a hitbox 10 yards away from him up. Once you get used to that you can start fighting him

He's still hard to punish and edgeguard.



Lucky.... I don't have a crew so i don't get extended anyone practice outside of online play.

Neither do I T_T

Brawl killed a lot of the love for smash in my group and I'm the only one still obsesses with the series. Truthfully I find it hard to believe thing has turn out this way since we played Melee for like 4 years before Brawl. Two of those years semi competitive

Now a days we mainly play king of fighter 06 and a lot of real-time strategies games.

 

[KRDsonic]

hmm... maybe that's why meta knight isn't too hard for me, since I used to fight so many of them I'm used to it, and I've had a lot of Ice Climber vs. Meta Knight matchups before, which are a lot harder than Sheik vs. Meta Knight matchups.

I still say Ice Climbers are her worst matchup.

 

[ADHD]

hmm... maybe that's why meta knight isn't too hard for me, since I used to fight so many of them I'm used to it, and I've had a lot of Ice Climber vs. Meta Knight matchups before, which are a lot harder than Sheik vs. Meta Knight matchups.

I still say Ice Climbers are her worst matchup.

No, I say Hylian and Void are sheik's worst matchups.

 

[KRDsonic]

No, I say Hylian and Void are sheik's worst matchups.

lol. I started doing good against Hylian's Ice Climbers with my sheik then I suicided xD.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

ice climbers is easily the worst matchup lol

 

[imdavid]

IC scare me... i see one and i run off the stage save my dignity of being 0-kill another day... (i'm a pansy)

 

[ADHD]

How is pit favorable, I can't stand that guy. Smart people will know to just spam the angel ring and the only thing you can do is hop over it (which there is enough time for him to cancel the attack and run away) or use the chain (which there is too much lag time and you'll be punished)

 

[clowsui]

Pit?
Can be needle spammed
Recovery is gimped easily by all of Sheik's fast aerials + needles
Grabs land him into Nair or Fair guaranteed
Drephen Styling destroys any approach he has
If you roll during any of his attacks you can easily damage him
It's too hard for him to gimp your recovery
Arrows are easily dodged by Sheik + when he chases from an arrow your fast aerials keep him away

 

[imdavid]

whoa this guy is a falco main but he knows more about this than us xD haha, just because you mentioned drephen, i take your comment as truth

 

[ADHD]

Pit?
Can be needle spammed
Recovery is gimped easily by all of Sheik's fast aerials + needles
Grabs land him into Nair or Fair guaranteed
Drephen Styling destroys any approach he has
If you roll during any of his attacks you can easily damage him
It's too hard for him to gimp your recovery
Arrows are easily dodged by Sheik + when he chases from an arrow your fast aerials keep him away

Did you even read what I wrote?

The angel ring (side B) cannot be penetrated by needles from the air or the ground. The only attack that can penetrate it is the whip, which has too much pullback lag and is punished easily. You can jump around the angel ring, but then he has enough time to stop it and run away.

 

[choknater]

lol... Down Smash has the same initials as Drephen Styling...

perhaps the "d" in dthrow and dsmash actually stands for Drephen..

 

[Tristan_win]

Did you even read what I wrote?

The angel ring (side B) cannot be penetrated by needles from the air or the ground. The only attack that can penetrate it is the whip, which has too much pullback lag and is punished easily. You can jump around the angel ring, but then he has enough time to stop it and run away.

...I don't fight many pits but it seems rolling behind pit would be effective when he does his angel ring.

 

[KRDsonic]

Sheik vs. Pit is pretty neutral IMO. I've used Sheik against Pit before, and I've used Pit against Sheik before (both are two of my mains) and neither side of the battle seems harder than the other.

 

[tutata]

Ou good list. We need something like this.

Lets try note when zelda would be good vs a bad matchup (and i mean beyond switch -> usmash -> switch back)



And lets start a discussion on all the bad matchups starting with kirby. Heres a few questions that i think should be considered for the characters at the bottom of the list.

1) Reason why the matchup is difficult?
2) Can this character be Ftilt locked?
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=172012
3) General strategies that should be used to make this matchup better?
4) Is this a bad matchup for zelda also?

1) Can't be edgeguarded very well, high priority areals makes it hard to approach, sheik is not the best character to exploit light weight, needles aren't that effective so camping isn't an option.

2) Limited at 15% apparently.

3) I think playing aggressively like sheik normally does is a bad idea vs kirby. Another thing to keep in mind is that approaching with areals is probably a bad idea since kirby will often be floating around ready to counter with his high prioritized areals. I would suggest staying on the ground ready to punish with your smashes or tilts.

4) I don't have a sound opinion here but i don't think so. Zelda's priority on the ground and ability to camp makes her near unapproachable by kirby. Zelda CAN exploit light weight. Probably a good idea to switch.

@above poster

Link is heavier. Heavier is bad for sheik. Either way they are both fairly easy matchups.

I like this advice