Zelda+Sheik Matchup Listing

[Tristan_win]

Well I'm stomp

How do you fight Falcos?

I just spend a good 3 hours last night fighting a good Falco and I couldn't figure out how Sheik can rip him a new one effectively.

Of course I got better fighting him and it wasn’t like I was losing by a lot if I did lose but I haven’t had this happen to me since Meta knight so I’m kind of worried about this.

Any advise?

 

[choknater]

Ftilt the hell out of him and out damage him. You can rack up just as much damage at mid %'s with your ftilt as he can do with his chain grab.

Pretty much every stock, you might find yourself getting chain grabbed from 0 to 40 or 50 if he combos well, try not to die from the spike if he gets one on you. After that, try not to take in ANY more damage... Pretty much just try to pressure falco because Sheik is superior to him at close range.

He does have a lot of priority in his fsmash and utilt so watch out for those.

A lot of Falcos like to recover over the ledge and not sweetspot with their side-B, this is when they are expecting you to edge hog. Try to nick him with nair as he tries to recover, because it's your best aerial to stop his phantasm.

Stay near him but DON'T get caught in his dumb high priority stuff like fsmash, utilt, shine, whatever. Know the exact distance of his fsmash (it's hard to space because of the strange invisible hitboxes sorta like snake's utilt) and punish accordingly.

Yeah, just a few Falco tips.

Imo, he's an unfavorable matchup for Sheik, but not impossible because ftilts **** him badly.

 

[ADHD]

Well I'm stomp

How do you fight Falcos?

I just spend a good 3 hours last night fighting a good Falco and I couldn't figure out how Sheik can rip him a new one effectively.

Of course I got better fighting him and it wasn’t like I was losing by a lot if I did lose but I haven’t had this happen to me since Meta knight so I’m kind of worried about this.

Any advise?

Play incredibly aggressive against him, you cannot let him grab you at all until you are at high percent. Force him to use other attacks to rack up damage on you, and then go beserk.

 

[imdavid]

EAT THEM LAZORS, EAT THEM!! SHEIK LAUGHS AT THE FACE OF LAZORS! :] or you can just duck and make the falco player feel silly for shooting at nothing

i like to use nairs a lot against falcos, i don't know if it helps me at all though :] sorry for being useless

 

[choknater]

Crawling under lasers helps. (Not just against Falco too. It helps for a lot of projectiles including Pit's arrows)

 

[DanGR]

errr...sheik is either even or advantaged versus Olimar. She outprioritizes him for the most part and she has a projectile that can give Olimar trouble. it's definitely not one of her worse matchups. It's more like 55/45.

 

[Zankoku]

Uh, what? Since when did Sheik out-prioritize Olimar in anything except dair vs upsmash? Needles end up just hitting the Pikmin, and Olimar can just grab Sheik out of anything she tries to do.

 

[ADHD]

I give up, im just gonna spikefest the icys with samus, sheik is next to impossible

 

[ADHD]

How do you fight lucas? This battle used to be np when I was an agressive noob... should I just go beserk?

 

[Tristan_win]

If your having problem just out camp him with your needles

His range does have it's uses but it's actually range it self is very limited.

Try to make him approach you and when he tries to use his side B avoid it and rush in with the punishment.

 

[Snakeee]

If your having problem just out camp him with your needles

His range does have it's uses but it's actually range it self is very limited.

Try to make him approach you and when he tries to use his side B avoid it and rush in with the punishment.

Tristan you told me that Sheik is decent against G&W. I tried the match up a few times and I think I was starting to get it, but I'm still not really sure what makes it her favor. I'd like to hear your take on the match-up.

EDIT: ...or I thought you said G&W lol. Ankoku has it as a bad match up. Well I'll wait to see what you say.

 

[Squidster]

butbut

WAVEBOUNCING!

It cannot be punished!

But on a more serious note, lucas HAS to play defensively. Its his only playstyle. Avoid his big smashes, dodge his campy projectiles, jump around in the air. He is boring in the air.

 

[Tristan_win]

Tristan you told me that Sheik is decent against G&W. I tried the match up a few times and I think I was starting to get it, but I'm still not really sure what makes it her favor. I'd like to hear your take on the match-up.

EDIT: ...or I thought you said G&W lol. Ankoku has it as a bad match up. Well I'll wait to see what you say.

Differently not a easy match up but back when I was maining Sheik, Zamus, and Zelda(too many mains) I found that this was one of the few match up's Sheik did noticeable better when compared to Zelda and Zamus.

One of the main reasons for this I think is the fact that Sheik not only has a great offensive game but also has better defensive options then Zamus.

G&W are always extremely aggressive especially with their aerials, their ground game also has great range and can be even spammed fairly safely.

Most G&W I’ve fought approach in four ways.

Bair, ~ very common and very hard to punish, G&W players don’t seem to understand how to stop using this move so a well time ^B can do wonders. Just make sure you go up and away from G&W approach just in case you mess up and miss. G&W speed isn’t that great so odds are he wont be able to attack you in time once you reappear and even if he does he will most likely use his fair because of it’s range. Although predicting and timing the ^B can be difficult if not impossible at close range.
Nair, ~ short hop nair, easily counter with crouch into a dtilt. You will be able to hit him before the fish hit you
fair, Shield grab much? If they pull back I usually think it’s a trap and throw needles, it’s better then getting fsmashed.
grab. Very rare but since I’m more or less recommending you to hide in your shield it does happen. I would imagine you know all about how to tech his throw.

G&W has a noticeable weakness for opponents who are above him since his utilt, usmash, and uair all suck.

G&W player make up for this by using the nair or even their ^B. This makes predicting what they are going to do much easier. I’ve never seen a G&W use his ^B to stop people constantly though but if he does start doing it immediately stop approach from above as none of Sheiks aerials(I don’t know about Zamus) can stop it. All you can do is trade with the dair, which you have to start before he ^B’s.

Zamus ways of pressuring shields from above without getting shield grab are (to my knowledge) Side B, nair, bair and stun gun.

All of theses are either high risk moves or can't be effectively followed up because of Zamus high short hop. She can even miss G&W completely if you pulling back too soon or fall straight into a shield grab if done too late. It’s just generally harder to use Zamus to shield pressure then Sheik.

Sheik has nair, fair, bair.

Not as many options but Fair and nair in my opinion is what makes Sheik better.

Nair can’t be used in the traditional means as you have to do a full hop and while raising start the nair. This can’t be shield grab and G&W isn’t able to give chase. He has to wait for you to land.

A very noticeable advantage is the fact that G&W can’t absorb Sheik needles so you can camp against him as well if needed.

I’m currently not 100% about this but I remember when I use to fight against a G&W frequently if he used the key to approach I would allow him to hit my shield that way I could shield grab him. If he misses you can’t.

Like I said I’m not 100% about this right now and it might be even the other way around…sorry.

…That’s all I can think of for the G&W match up currently.

Sorry if I wasn’t as helpful as you hope.

 

[Snakeee]

It was definitely helpful thanks. But I'm not sure who I'm going to use against him though now...maybe Marth lol. And its not really that bad for ZSS, but almost certainly G&Ws advantage.

 

[ADHD]

It was definitely helpful thanks. But I'm not sure who I'm going to use against him though now...maybe Marth lol. And its not really that bad for ZSS, but almost certainly G&Ws advantage.

Trust me sheik is pretty even with him, it just takes alot of experience, don't look for another character. Learn to tech is dthrow, and you should be fine

 

[Zankoku]

Is it generally agreed that Sheik is even with G&W? I'm not sure, since I haven't played a G&W main since.... like, April.

 

[Tristan_win]

The thing you have to remember about G&W is that unlike most of the other high tier characters he has a lot of nearly useless moves and since he always approaches, fights, and recovery the same way it's only a matter of time before you start memorizing what exactly he is capable of.

As fighting styles goes I've only seen two types for G&W.
One's who use the dair a lot and those who don't.

Sadly, it's not that simple for everyone who is "high tier"

Falco now longer all fight exactly the same although I need to fight more of them to say for sure
Diddy I've seen like 5+ different styles and it’s driving me crazy trying to figure them out every match
Marth has like 3
Snakes like G&W have only two styles those who like throwing grenades a lot and those who don't. Snake can’t snakedash very well against a campy sheik.
Meta knight range from ^B spamming, smash spamming, and B spamming. They also have a kind of mixture version of the three but honestly spamming smash attack or b moves is so limited I really don’t count it as it’s own style.
ROB ~ I’ve only fought like three and all of them where very defensive/ spammed the down smash.
Dedede all fight the same, seriously watch the video of m2k and then watch a scrub. It’s about the same thing just with different amount of skilled and polish with the character. I’m not trying to bad mouth Dedede or anything but like Ike he is only going to get lower on the tier list as time goes on. Everyone is going to learn how to fight him and he’s going to fall to the bottom of the high bracket.

Those are just naming a few I know for the good characters

Edit: Ankoku good job getting your 3,500 post

 

[choknater]

G&W has a noticeable weakness for opponents who are above him since his utilt, usmash, and uair all suck.

Whoa there, hold your horses on that one. G&W can spam uairs to push you upwards, so sometimes you are forced to find a way to get back onto the ground since you can't fall down from above him. If you come down on him with an aerial, his upward attacks actually greatly outprioritize what Sheik has. One of G&W's great strengths is disjointed hitbox priority, so Sheik pretty much has to play a distanced game against G&W. Lots of needles, lots of surprise attacks (dash attacks, fast aerials, boost usmashes if you can do it.)

IMO G&W is an unfavorable matchup, but still possible. It's reminiscent of playing against Snake or MK or R.O.B. Basically those characters have a lot going for them, and it's up to the Sheik players to find the very small openings that they do have and capitalizing on them quickly. Ninja style, hahah. G&W's priority is way too high to attempt to clash with, so finding openings is the main ideal of this matchup. And he does have them.

(Needles help open them up. Raaaape!)

 

[Tristan_win]

The uair does have it's uses but it's more of a tool to annoyed your opponent into messing up then anything. It also does zero damage unless G&w is right under them.

G&W air game chase game is made up of either hit or miss attack such as his bair, fair and his long last nair. Odd are the G&W user will use nair unless he's sure the fair or bair will connect.

Oh and about his utilt it has a good amount start up before it hits above G&W and the range of the attack it self isn't that great to begin with. G&W users will have to start the attack before you get into range.

I think those two moves are pretty useless and for every G&W I’ve seen they never really used them.

 

[popsofctown]

I think you over simplify Meta Knight, Tristan_win. Although most of the players you see are going to spam the Mach Tornado, smashes, and Shuttle Loop (up B), they are just using the popular top layer of a deep character. I guess maybe you don't want to count it if no one actually does it, but Meta Knight also has several aerials he can use to approach, a good walking approach sort of like Bowser does (just walking, being prepared to tilt, smash, react in some way), and a fast running grab he could be using. I don't even claim him as a secondary, i just play him some to give my friend practice against the second best or best or whatever character in the game, but when i play him i sense a whole lot there.

I don't know much about G & W, so i can't comment on that discussion. I've played hundreds of vs. Olimar's though, and i really personally feel that Sheik's odds are better than 20-80. I win it 70-30 against my friend, and he has a really good Olimar. I think some of his play style makes him a little susceptible to Sheik, i guess, that's the best i can explain it away, since i think he's better than me. But i think the odds are good.

If you'd like my reasons, i'll talk about it, or you can just look at my videos and deem that i am an exception to the rule.

 

[Tristan_win]

I'm not going to argue with you popsofctown about meta knight being deeper then what I listed as I personally know a Meta knight player who doesn't spam and kicks my *** all the time with Mk. *cough* Jester Kirby *cough*

It's just that those are the three main playing styles of Meta knight currently and there are so few who are really a mixture or even unique. What you said though is something I haven't experiences really, Jester kind of does that at times but I haven't ever seen or heard anyone basing a style around it.

Oh and I think everyone in the Sheik forum would love your insight about the Olimar vs Sheik match up.

It will give us something to talk about ^-^

 

[popsofctown]

if i go deeper in my Meta Knight, i would certainly want to at least try to make a walking based Meta Knight. Walking up to someone and owning them is so cool. I might be off topic oops!

Well, DanGR made about one post earlier about the matchup, but he didn't really explain. Also, i disagree with him in some ways about how Sheik succeeds in the matchup. I'm not arguing the matchup to be the exact win splits i have against DanGR. But my goodness, i think Sheik has a better shot than 20 - 80.


Olimar outcamps Sheik pretty strongly. Through lots of experience, I've found that charging needles is a waste of time. The needles almost invariably end up getting thrown into a pikmin, spending what took you a long time to charge to destroy one pikmin, which takes Olimar a milisecond to replace. If i do find time for needles, (the only legit time slot i can think of is when Olimar is falling from above, during spawn invincibility, or some other rare time when you shouldn't be juggling, approaching, or edgeguarding), i make sure not to waste them, and try to throw them when i am positive they'll hit.

A lot of Sheik's approach game (i'm talking about approaching a grounded opponent) is counted out almost completely because it's not diagonal. Olimar is really really strong on the horizontal. His grab has enormous range, and unlike most grapple grabs, not much after lag. Because it's a grab, there isn't many ways you can punish it. A running spot dodge would only work with insane timing and spacing, the spotdodge would put you out of action long enough for him to recover from the grab. Shielding is obviously not an option, vanish isn't because we aren't discussing a close range move, and you can't kill the pikmin he sends out to grab you, grabbing Pikmin are invincible. Yes... it's a clash between the two characters with the best access to invincibility frames, Sheik and pikmin.... i kid.
Anyway, the only correct response to a grab, besides a perfect theoretical spotdodge, is to shorthop. And that puts you on the diagonal, where you should be for most of the matchup.

I've been winning this matchup off of one approach, if a good counter can be found to it and there's nothing i can throw in the mix to help against the counter, then this matchup probably is 20-80, probably worse. I use autocancelling nair->anything. Usually it's autocancelled nair->jab.
The reason the approach works so well is that Olimar's is either slow or works differently. If Olimar shields the nair, and tries to grab, Sheik's grab comes out first. I might be tooting an antique horn, maybe Sheik does this to some other characters too, but it's lovely against Olimar. Someone tell me about any responses to nair->jab that Olimar has, DanGR has definitely searched.

Worst case scenario is that Olimar shields and just lets you push him back. There's different things you can do, but for the most part you stay in control. My favorite response used to be pushing him to max jab range and ftilting. My new favorite is much more cruel: i repeat the approach, shorthopping another nair and jabbing.

So that's the grounded approach game. Even if someone discovers an answer for that approach, i feel pretty confident Sheik can step it up and just mix the approach with something else too.

If your opponent forgets he is Olimar, or decides after seeing the nair approach that he'd rather not be Olimar, and starts approaching you, it's probably better to stay grounded. You can shield grab some of what he'll do, and vanish a lot of what he'll do. I love vanish to death, I can't go very long without saying that.

In air versus air combat, it's harder for me to describe. I often use fair to hit Olimar slightly before his fair or bair comes out. Nair can do it to, I don't know why fair keeps popping up in my matches. If the hitbox of your fair, and not much else of your body is hitting an aerial pikmin (or an upsmash pikmin), you tend to hit the pikmin and hurt it instead of taking damage. That's what DanGR talks about sometimes when he complains about low priority aerials, but i don't think it's actually priority.

If Olimar is below you, and you are both in the air, he pretty much has the win on you, you need to try to air dodge and find land like a transatlantic sailor. If you are below him, both in the air, and you have no stage below you, again you need to try to just survive. (usually you aren't loaded down with options in that situation.) If you are below him and he's up in the air, for the most part you can beat him, hitting him before his dair comes out, or waiting for him to use it to early.


It is late at night, more tomorrow.....

 

[imdavid]

wow things are getting heated up here.... i havent been on often sowwies, don't expect to see me at all soon though.. (not that you guys care)

pops has it pretty good

when i play against olimar and he tries to chuck his pikmin of doom, i just eat them. they attach on yah and do some hella damage... but olimar dies purty fast, so i just eat the damage and do a boost smash/running attack/sheik grab when i get close enough. most olimars aren't used to sheik's speed and low running height so it takes em by surprise as they see their stupid pikmin fly above you when you get in close, but once they adjust... they just basically down smash or something... stupid pikmin

from the air, dair is actually useful as stated a bunch of times, also nair is fine, off the stage, if you land one fair and then grab the ledge... its like gauranteed death XD sorry if i over simplify... i just get used to doing the same thing against my brother

MK is a pain in the ***, no joke. i generally spam bair and nair as they are your attacks with the longest range. also, vanish mind games pay off as well as utilts. utilts are your best friend :] hehe

ftilt against mk = win, after he gets out of ftilt = nightmare hahaha (i'm over simplifying everything!)

lucas is actually pretty annoying... once you get him in the air, you can dominate as squiddy pointed out

Rob you have to get in his face and eat it... i know what i'm saying is against most sheik's players play style as they want to punish, and i'm all up for that. but to punish rob you have to REALLY get in his face and approach using bairs. RAR with fastfalling bairs and then do a reverse ftilt to get him in there and then unleash the havoc of ftilt-utilt->usmash->boostsmash->fair chase XD i do that to my friend all the time :] its awesomeness and i can get him from 0-80% at least once per match that way XD haha

 

[popsofctown]

wow things are getting heated up here.... i havent been on often sowwies, don't expect to see me at all soon though.. (not that you guys care)

I care.

Well, actually it looks like i pretty much finished my olimar summary. I was just going to insult everyone's intelligence and tell you all to ledgehog. I'm not sure how aggressively to edgeguard Olimar, because he has a good air game. I think it's probably just me sucking though, so push him far enough to need the ledge and then hog the ledge.

 

[Zankoku]

No, edgeguarding Olimar is the best thing ever. It's getting to him so that you can send him off-stage that's the problem.

 

[Tristan_win]

Interesting, back when I first started doing auto cancel aerials canceling them into a jab was one of the first things I tested. I mainly did this testing with the fair but even so it didn’t take me very long after being punished repeatedly to see that it no longer worked so seeing you recommend that is kind of astonishing.

Does Olimar grab have any note worthy longer start up time?

 

[Zankoku]

It's a longer startup time, as most ranged grabs usually are. What makes this one annoying is that it can grab you out of the air if you're only a little bit over the ground, so he doesn't even need to wait for you to hit his shield because he'll catch you by your feet mid-aerial.

 

[popsofctown]

if you do nair to jab correctly, he shouldn't be able to grab you out of the air. If Olimar himself is damaged, his grabbing pikmin turns around and goes home.

I've found the nair autocancel to be good against Pit too. Except against Pit, it's not that his grab is slow, it's that Sheik's nair has longer range than his grab if you space it correctly. I haven't experimented with that mcuh yet though.

edit: I'm not sure if Olimar's problem is the start up time, because it doesn't seem that bad. I think maybe the "disjoint" nature of the grab might deny him some of the super armor properties other grabs have.

 

[Qzzy]

None of you guys are having trouble with Marth? Man, I just came from a tourney and all the marths were three stocking me. But i was able to hold my own with my Ike. Counter picking with Ike just feels stupid though.

I didn't know how to control any of the match. They're always in the air controlling space with F-air, so needles are useless, and that reach just pissed me off. I prefer going against MetaKnight over Marth.

And Olimar hurts too.

 

[ADHD]

THIS IS A THEORY:

For the icys, basically you have to use your speed to get them to stay away from you. Chances are they're gonna ice block spam but it can be stopped with the whip reflecting them.

This battle is about desyncing them when they want to be synced, and syncing them when they want to be desynced. Camp single needles to do this.

Once you see an opening that they are desynced and one is vunerable, grab hm and do a bthrow or fthrow immediately to separate them. And then keep them separated at all costs and work it from there.

Repeat?

What do you guys think?

 

[Zankoku]

I think dsmash works alright.

 

[Tristan_win]

THIS IS A THEORY:

For the icys, basically you have to use your speed to get them to stay away from you. Chances are they're gonna ice block spam but it can be stopped with the whip reflecting them.

This battle is about desyncing them when they want to be synced, and syncing them when they want to be desynced. Camp single needles to do this.

Once you see an opening that they are desynced and one is vunerable, grab hm and do a bthrow or fthrow immediately to separate them. And then keep them separated at all costs and work it from there.

Repeat?

What do you guys think?

Chrome you sir are crazy. What you just suggested was to grab an Ice climber and that's a big no no. Even in Brawl that will most likely lead directly into you getting smashed by the spare ice climber

Although the rest of your theory is correct but like you said they will most likely be spamming ice blocks and that will also stop any needles you wish to throw.

Edit: For the most part

 

[<π]

bair has more range than both nair and fair.

@ Qzzy: needle spam and bairs are awesome your main goal in the match up is to mess up his spacing. Try and keep marth above you with fthrow and well placed dash attacks you can fair him in most situations if his fair isn't already out. edge gaurd him if he isn't in up b range with a falling weak bair and most of the time you can get the kill.

 

[Cobra]

but while youre here, wanna tell us sheik mainers what are some stupid things sheiks do against your olimar and how you deal with them and some things we should avoid doing? :]

Emmy said her piece, but then defaulted to me to answer the question. This is what I've learned against the Olimars I've played. Hopefully it helps. (Yes I saw the huge Olimar post, but more infoprmation enevr hurts...that's what this thread is for.)


How I fight Olimar with Sheik

Problems :

- Olimar is a tricksy little jerk. His smash attacks come out a lot faster then you'd think they would since it doesn't require a Pikmin to fully return before sending another out.

- When Sheik is at low damage and thrown down, it can easily lead to a string of aerial combos that will rack your damage up FAST.

- His grab range is long and fast. This makes approaching from the ground extremely difficult.

- Super Armor. F*ck that whistle. What's that? USmash Tipper at 150%?...yeah Olimar doesn't care, he'll whistle land and USmash you off the screen without blinking.

...essentially the biggest problem I face when fighting an Olimar is spacing. A good Olimar will keep you well spaced and afraid of him, and we all know how good Sheik's approach game is. Whenever Olimar is on the ground I consider him to have a zone in a semi-circle around him where he's safe. In front of him, he can grab, DSmash, or FSmash safely...behind him, he has a DSmash to protect, and above him, he's got in range for an USmash or a short-hopped aerial (and you want to avoid is UAir attacks at all costs, since they are brutal.)


Advice :

- Get his b*tch *** in the air! Olimar is by no means weak in the air, but Sheik stands a MUCH better chance against him in an aerial battle then on the ground. GRAB GRAB GRAB...If you can get inside his zone, grab him and get him in the air. (I suggest Back throw, as it puts you in range of a BAir or two)

- Stay underneath him, or behind...His aerials are good, but Sheik is faster.

- Anticipate the whistle. Mind games people. Jump to a vanish works WONDERS against a whistling Olimar. More often then not, this avoids the first few frames of the whistle's SAF and will send them flying. Otherwise, jump, wait, attack...adapt. Read their patterns and react accordingly...once you see how an opponent whistles, it's easy to wait for it and then throw your aerial.

- Don't rush him. A.k.a. "Don't walk into the ****". His zone of defense is too strong to just walk into, he's got too much range and his attacks are too fast. If you can weasel your way in, Spot dodge to a FTilt lock, then followed with a NAir into a string of attacks that wills end him off the edge. Be careful though, moving into a standing Olimar's zone can be punishing...you need to be smart about your approaches.

- Needles are you friend. they have better range then his Pikmin. Now the Pikmin have hit boxes, so not all of the needles will make it, but it won't take long for the Olimar to get fed up and move into an attack, which is allowing you to control the situation, not him...and that is always good.

- Best/Most Obvious advice : Gimp his insanely gimpable save. Sheik's aerials = Awesome. Aerial him off the edge and keep him there. Be wary of throw purple Pikmin though, and cling to that ledge till the bitter end, but be READY, that chain will often times bounce you off the stage and at high damage, this can be dangerous. (Though I would easily take a high damage death to gimp an Olimar's save.

...this is in my opinion also better then having to switch to kill with Zelda, but if you're up against a wall and the Olimar is super good with that whistle, Zelda's multi-hit attacks are natural counters to his super armor frames. Use your best judgment.

Questions?...Comments?...

 

[popsofctown]

me and cobra both agree it's hard to approach by ground.
Vanish against a landing Olimar is shown to be good for a second reason, if he's trying to whistle counter you he'll get hit.
Apparently Cobra can "weasel" his way in by spotdodgeing past grabs and fsmashes, i still don't recommend it, I feel that too much can happen to you.
Needles do get blocked a lot, but Cobra is right that sometimes 3/6 or 2/6 will make it and hit Olimar. This could anger him, make him feel loss of control, and cause approach, but i don't think it should. Olimar overall can control the match if he keeps it a projectile match, and i would assume the best of my opponent and assume that two out of six needles won't be enough to discourage him. That said, killing pikmin with needles does refresh your other moves... random info.

Sheik's aerials are overall better, he gets me somtimes in the air but i think i'm just not that good at this game.

I think you need to practice your edgehogging Cobra, i almost never get knocked off the edge. I use the L-get-on-ledge for invulnerability (the one that still counts you as being on the edge), and I have a pretty good success rate predicting when to do it.
Edit: By the way, that low % throwdown combo Cobra was talking about is a true combo... scary.

 

[Cobra]

Apparently Cobra can "weasel" his way in by spotdodgeing past grabs and fsmashes, i still don't recommend it, I feel that too much can happen to you.

...yeah I don't like the option either really, was just throwing it out there as it is possible to get in sometimes if they aren't being careful.

Needles do get blocked a lot, but Cobra is right that sometimes 3/6 or 2/6 will make it and hit Olimar. This could anger him, make him feel loss of control, and cause approach, but i don't think it should. Olimar overall can control the match if he keeps it a projectile match, and i would assume the best of my opponent and assume that two out of six needles won't be enough to discourage him. That said, killing pikmin with needles does refresh your other moves... random info.

...haha, random info = awesome.

The reason why I like this is because the needles out-range even the white Pikmin throw. If you can pepper him with needles, what a lot of Olimars will do is start jumping and throwing pikmin to catch you in the range. This is exactly what you want. the second he does that, Rush in and dash attack, or better yet, if you can Boost Smash...do it. It's a smart approach, and since he's in the air, you have less of a chance of being massively punished for rushing.

(I forgot to mention this originally, I found it quite useful.)

I think you need to practice your edgehogging Cobra, i almost never get knocked off the edge. I use the L-get-on-ledge for invulnerability (the one that still counts you as being on the edge), and I have a pretty good success rate predicting when to do it.

...this is more then likely true. What do you mean, "I use the L-get-on-ledge". I know I didn't mention it, but a lot of the time, I'll just edgehog with the chain, and once the Olimar has gotten to the point where I might be in danger of a hit from his Pikmin, I pull up to the snap for the extra frames.

However, you still need to be wary that edgehogging him isn't free. It's good to be ready for a hit so you can react fast and save again.

By the way, that low % throwdown combo Cobra was talking about is a true combo... scary.

...god, it's so annoying, and if you're not careful with your air dodges and whatnot afterwards, you could be caught in it again. It's like a free 30% damage for the Olimar. Have we mentioned never to be above an Olimar? ...then again, being above anyone with Sheik is pretty much a bad idea unless you're fast falling an NAir, and even then...I prefer to avoid the position.

 

[Eltrotraw]

One more point to add about Olimar: what about his up+b being used against a Sheik diagonal from him? Wouldn't that work well as a defensive tool against diagonal approaches?

Of course, this can end up to airdodging and then leading to baiting said airdodges, but I think it might be something to be considered.

 

[<π]

I haven't run into may oli's that do that, air dodge and punish if they do it has a decent start up you should see if coming, if you were already attacking you were going to hit him anyway.

 

[popsofctown]

One more point to add about Olimar: what about his up+b being used against a Sheik diagonal from him? Wouldn't that work well as a defensive tool against diagonal approaches?

Of course, this can end up to airdodging and then leading to baiting said airdodges, but I think it might be something to be considered.

In theory this would work against Sheik, but i don't see it working really well in practice. If they do it too late, the nair will hit them, too early, you can airdodge. I wouldn't count it out completely.

@Cobra

You are using needles to get under Olimar, which is a good place to be. Still, I think you are winning off of a mistake... doesn't mean you shouldn't keep doing it though.

By L-to-get-on-ledge, i meant pressing the shield button while you are hanging off of the ledge (hanging by hand, not by whip). This causes you to rolldodge onto the stage in a canned animation, the same way pressing A on the ledge causes you to attack in a canned animation. During the roll dodge, the edge still counts as unavailable to other players, and that's why this is a good, old way to edgehog invincibly.

I don't know if the whip is better, but using the L-recovery is working at about 90-95% for me.

 

[Tristan_win]

You know even though I agree with a lot of what this list says once in a while I run into something that strikes me as completely out of place, mainly Diddy Kong (30-70) and Jigglypuff (50-50)

So far I’ve fought like maybe 7+ people now who use or main Diddy Kong and of those 7+ I’ve fought 4 of them many times after. I’m talking of having maybe 20 collected hours here of fighting just fighting Diddy Kong if not more.

With that said I think I can safely say I have a **** good idea on how the match up is and I don’t find it that hard.

Diddy Kong is a beast and he can be a hard match up but saying he’s as hard to fight as a good ROB or Mr. Game & Watch is just so incredibly wrong.

I think a more accurate placement would be around Marth difficult.

Also about Jigglypuff, I haven’t fought that many in Brawl (like 3) but Sheik was a Jigglypuff counter back in Melee and the main reason for this was because of Sheiks range.

This match up is played exactly the same way it was back in Melee just this time around without wave dashing and having to wait until the higher percents to score a kill.

Zelda also destroys Jigglypuff for not only because of her light weight but because Jigglys whole game revolves about approaching in the air.