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Zelda+Sheik Matchup Listing

Wildfire393

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A 90-10 matchup against Ganondorf? I'm pretty sure Sheik does have an advantage, but that number seems a little too high. Mind telling me the reasoning behind this extreme number?
As a heavy and large character who falls fairly fast, Ganondorf gets tilt-locked very easily. His low maneuverability makes him fall prey easily to things like the Chain Drag and Needles. His slow aerial game allows him to be batted around like crazy. And his easily-gimpable recovery is just that with sheik: easily gimpable. It's not unusual to see him slapped after his second jump at around 100%, causing him to fall uselessly to his death.

The only thing he has up on Sheik is the range on his forward and down tilts, which make it difficult to approach from the front. But since Sheik has a projectile, she can easily bait him into approaching. And even if she can't, she can do a crossover Bair into a Grab or shield pressure, and then it's tilt-lock time.

Especially pertinent is the fact that Ganondorf suffers from a lot of Lag. This gives Sheik numerous opportunities to get in there and start comboing him. And once she does, he's pretty well screwed.


For the same reasons though, I think Bowser should be listed as a more favorable matchup. He's easy to lock, easy to gimp, laggy, projectile-less, large and slow, etc.
 

Deception

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As a heavy and large character who falls fairly fast, Ganondorf gets tilt-locked very easily. His low maneuverability makes him fall prey easily to things like the Chain Drag and Needles. His slow aerial game allows him to be batted around like crazy. And his easily-gimpable recovery is just that with sheik: easily gimpable. It's not unusual to see him slapped after his second jump at around 100%, causing him to fall uselessly to his death.

The only thing he has up on Sheik is the range on his forward and down tilts, which make it difficult to approach from the front. But since Sheik has a projectile, she can easily bait him into approaching. And even if she can't, she can do a crossover Bair into a Grab or shield pressure, and then it's tilt-lock time.

Especially pertinent is the fact that Ganondorf suffers from a lot of Lag. This gives Sheik numerous opportunities to get in there and start comboing him. And once she does, he's pretty well screwed.


For the same reasons though, I think Bowser should be listed as a more favorable matchup. He's easy to lock, easy to gimp, laggy, projectile-less, large and slow, etc.
Ganondorf suffers from lag, but he's still got some fast attacks, not to mention he has IASA frames on his upsmash, ftilt, dtilt, and jab. Especially jab. Sheik still has the advantage, but it won't be an automatic win. Auto-canceled dair to upsmash is good way to give Sheik between 40% and 50% right off the bat. Ganondorf can really inflict damage quickly with very few moves, and can kill Sheil at lower percents than usual. The big problem is that Sheik can also inflict massive damage to Ganon, except it takes more moves. She can also start racking up damage easier than Ganon, who has to be very patient and good at spacing.

I'd say it's more likely 70-30 at the highest in Sheik's favor. Sheik can't be careless, as Ganon will be waiting for the opportune moment strike, and then Sheik is in risk of dying at 80% from a dash attack.
 

Squidster

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Bowser is quicker and has longer range than ganon in the air, he also has a less gimpable recovery.

The matchup is still in sheiks favor i think if anything because of needles, but its definitely harder than ganon :p
 

Wildfire393

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Bowser is quicker and has longer range than ganon in the air, he also has a less gimpable recovery.

The matchup is still in sheiks favor i think if anything because of needles, but its definitely harder than ganon :p

Oh, definitely. I was merely suggesting that it move from "Even" to "Favorable", maybe 65-35?
 

NJzFinest

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Why is ROB hard again?
He has trouble dealing with spaced Bairs and "auto canceled" Nairs if you retreat or dsmash/tilt after them. Also because of his size, he isn't hard to tilt combo or kill with "down b".
If anything, Falco is much harder.
 

popsofctown

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(to defend my secondary) Bowser also has a nice trick against Sheik that Ganon wishes he had in his Whirling Fortress. It's one of the best "your in my bubble" moves in the game, like Lucario's downsmash or Metaknights neutral B. And Sheik, unless i totally misunderstand the character, wants to get in your bubble, or very close.
 

NJzFinest

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Against Sheik?... Bowser has this "trick" against every character in the game. It's usually countered by the opponent using well placed spaced moves or even simply reading the Bowser's Up B out of shield and punishing it, just like in Melee.

Now let's see, Sheik has moves with nice range for careful spacing and is pretty good at punishing Bowser since he's pretty fat. So much for a little trick against Sheik.
 

DanGR

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responses in green

Well, DanGR made about one post earlier about the matchup, but he didn't really explain. Also, i disagree with him in some ways about how Sheik succeeds in the matchup. I'm not arguing the matchup to be the exact win splits i have against DanGR. But my goodness, i think Sheik has a better shot than 20 - 80.
wow, I missed the whole discussion. I'll clear up some things. I think it's 60:40(maybe 50:50) Sheik for only two reasons. Sheik's aerials DO cut through pikmin, and she has one approach that's VERY hard to counter.

Olimar outcamps Sheik pretty strongly. Through lots of experience, I've found that charging needles is a waste of time. The needles almost invariably end up getting thrown into a pikmin, spending what took you a long time to charge to destroy one pikmin, which takes Olimar a milisecond to replace. If i do find time for needles, (the only legit time slot i can think of is when Olimar is falling from above, during spawn invincibility, or some other rare time when you shouldn't be juggling, approaching, or edgeguarding), i make sure not to waste them, and try to throw them when i am positive they'll hit.

A lot of Sheik's approach game (i'm talking about approaching a grounded opponent) is counted out almost completely because it's not diagonal. Olimar is really really strong on the horizontal. His grab has enormous range, and unlike most grapple grabs, not much after lag. Because it's a grab, there isn't many ways you can punish it. A running spot dodge would only work with insane timing and spacing, the spotdodge would put you out of action long enough for him to recover from the grab. Shielding is obviously not an option, vanish isn't because we aren't discussing a close range move, and you can't kill the pikmin he sends out to grab you, grabbing Pikmin are invincible. Yes... it's a clash between the two characters with the best access to invincibility frames, Sheik and pikmin.... i kid.
Anyway, the only correct response to a grab, besides a perfect theoretical spotdodge, is to shorthop. And that puts you on the diagonal, where you should be for most of the matchup.

I've been winning this matchup off of one approach, if a good counter can be found to it and there's nothing i can throw in the mix to help against the counter, then this matchup probably is 20-80, probably worse. I use autocancelling nair->anything. Usually it's autocancelled nair->jab.

very true, this one approach doesn't fail if he does it right. If I can find a way to beat this one freakin approach, I'd win much more than I do.


The reason the approach works so well is that Olimar's is either slow or works differently. If Olimar shields the nair, and tries to grab, Sheik's grab comes out first. I might be tooting an antique horn, maybe Sheik does this to some other characters too, but it's lovely against Olimar. Someone tell me about any responses to nair->jab that Olimar has, DanGR has definitely searched.
This is the reason it works so well...

If you space the nair or fair well enough this approach doesn't fail.
-For the nair-if the end of your foot barely hits Sheik.
-For the fair, you don't even have to hit olimar for it to work.
They both cut through fsmash and upsmash anyways, so you don't have to necessarily worry about an attack from Olimar, but rather the shieldgrab.

Sheik's grab does come out faster than Olimar's. If you're both on the ground, and you're as far from olimar as you can be for you to grab him, you'll grab first.

Sheik's jabs are faster than Olimar's grab. Believe it or not, Olimar's grab has startup lag. It takes a small amount of time for the little pikmin to run up and grab your leg.


Worst case scenario is that Olimar shields and just lets you push him back. There's different things you can do, but for the most part you stay in control. My favorite response used to be pushing him to max jab range and ftilting. My new favorite is much more cruel: i repeat the approach, shorthopping another nair and jabbing.

it is cruel, and there's nothing I can do about it if you do it right...

So that's the grounded approach game. Even if someone discovers an answer for that approach, i feel pretty confident Sheik can step it up and just mix the approach with something else too.

If I wanted to, I could roll around him, but she'll just not do the jabs and/ or jump again. Sometimes, when I try this, I can roll around her, and catch her trying to jab me. I can then fsmash or somethin. If I roll back, she'll jump and do it all over again.

If your opponent forgets he is Olimar, or decides after seeing the nair approach that he'd rather not be Olimar, and starts approaching you, it's probably better to stay grounded. You can shield grab some of what he'll do, and vanish a lot of what he'll do. I love vanish to death, I can't go very long without saying that.
this is what I tend to end up doing. I approach her so she won't approach me. :(

In air versus air combat, it's harder for me to describe. I often use fair to hit Olimar slightly before his fair or bair comes out. Nair can do it to, I don't know why fair keeps popping up in my matches. If the hitbox of your fair, and not much else of your body is hitting an aerial pikmin (or an upsmash pikmin), you tend to hit the pikmin and hurt it instead of taking damage. That's what DanGR talks about sometimes when he complains about low priority aerials, but i don't think it's actually priority.

It is definitely priority. I invite anyone to test this out. I can fair, bair or dair before she nairs, bairs, or fairs and it'll knock my pikmin out of the way and hit olimar. It's annoying. Sheik's nair, fair, upair, bair, fsmash, upsmash, and ftilt all have priority over all of Olimar's pikmin attacks; fair, bair, dair, upsmash, fsmash, and dsmash. Test it out. I'm not even joking. It's not necessarily her attacks are quicker. It's that they just cut through pikmin. that simple. It's just like Kirby-his aerials just go through the pikmin. There's a very select few characters that have this same exact trait that's bad for Olimar-MK, Marth, Kirby, Rob, Wolf and Yoshi. MK, Marth, Kirby, and Rob are Olimar's only disadvantages, IMO.

If Olimar is below you, and you are both in the air, he pretty much has the win on you, you need to try to air dodge and find land like a transatlantic sailor. If you are below him, both in the air, and you have no stage below you, again you need to try to just survive. (usually you aren't loaded down with options in that situation.) If you are below him and he's up in the air, for the most part you can beat him, hitting him before his dair comes out, or waiting for him to use it to early. true
if you do nair to jab correctly, he shouldn't be able to grab you out of the air. If Olimar himself is damaged, his grabbing pikmin turns around and goes home.

very important and true^. If I start the grab, and you hit me before I'm grabbed, I will not grab you. The pikmin will "turn around" as pops put it.

I've found the nair autocancel to be good against Pit too. Except against Pit, it's not that his grab is slow, it's that Sheik's nair has longer range than his grab if you space it correctly. I haven't experimented with that mcuh yet though.

edit: I'm not sure if Olimar's problem is the start up time, because it doesn't seem that bad. I think maybe the "disjoint" nature of the grab might deny him some of the super armor properties other grabs have.
Emmy said her piece, but then defaulted to me to answer the question. This is what I've learned against the Olimars I've played. Hopefully it helps. (Yes I saw the huge Olimar post, but more infoprmation enevr hurts...that's what this thread is for.)


How I fight Olimar with Sheik

Problems :

- Olimar is a tricksy little jerk. His smash attacks come out a lot faster then you'd think they would since it doesn't require a Pikmin to fully return before sending another out.

- When Sheik is at low damage and thrown down, it can easily lead to a string of aerial combos that will rack your damage up FAST.
Yes, but nair cancels out all of Olimar's pikmin attacks, including all of my racking moves. Just tap "a" and you've beaten Olimar's racking game.

- His grab range is long and fast. This makes approaching from the ground extremely difficult.

- Super Armor. F*ck that whistle. What's that? USmash Tipper at 150%?...yeah Olimar doesn't care, he'll whistle land and USmash you off the screen without blinking.
lol, very true. :)

...essentially the biggest problem I face when fighting an Olimar is spacing. A good Olimar will keep you well spaced and afraid of him, and we all know how good Sheik's approach game is. Whenever Olimar is on the ground I consider him to have a zone in a semi-circle around him where he's safe. In front of him, he can grab, DSmash, or FSmash safely...behind him, he has a DSmash to protect, and above him, he's got in range for an USmash or a short-hopped aerial (and you want to avoid is UAir attacks at all costs, since they are brutal.)


Advice :

- Get his b*tch *** in the air! Olimar is by no means weak in the air, but Sheik stands a MUCH better chance against him in an aerial battle then on the ground. GRAB GRAB GRAB...If you can get inside his zone, grab him and get him in the air. (I suggest Back throw, as it puts you in range of a BAir or two)
very true. Olimar is bad in the air against sheik.

- Stay underneath him, or behind...His aerials are good, but Sheik is faster.

- Anticipate the whistle. Mind games people. Jump to a vanish works WONDERS against a whistling Olimar. More often then not, this avoids the first few frames of the whistle's SAF and will send them flying. Otherwise, jump, wait, attack...adapt. Read their patterns and react accordingly...once you see how an opponent whistles, it's easy to wait for it and then throw your aerial.

- Don't rush him. A.k.a. "Don't walk into the ****". His zone of defense is too strong to just walk into, he's got too much range and his attacks are too fast. If you can weasel your way in, Spot dodge to a FTilt lock, then followed with a NAir into a string of attacks that wills end him off the edge. Be careful though, moving into a standing Olimar's zone can be punishing...you need to be smart about your approaches.
running spotdodges don't really work. I think Pops' explained that somewhere.(V) ftilt does work though. It knocks fsmash pikmin away from you.
me and cobra both agree it's hard to approach by ground.
Vanish against a landing Olimar is shown to be good for a second reason, if he's trying to whistle counter you he'll get hit.
Apparently Cobra can "weasel" his way in by spotdodgeing past grabs and fsmashes, i still don't recommend it, I feel that too much can happen to you.
Needles do get blocked a lot, but Cobra is right that sometimes 3/6 or 2/6 will make it and hit Olimar. This could anger him, make him feel loss of control, and cause approach, but i don't think it should. Olimar overall can control the match if he keeps it a projectile match, and i would assume the best of my opponent and assume that two out of six needles won't be enough to discourage him. That said, killing pikmin with needles does refresh your other moves... random info.

Sheik's aerials are overall better, he gets me somtimes in the air but i think i'm just not that good at this game.
you're good. Don't be so harsh on yourself. It's annoying. :laugh:

I think you need to practice your edgehogging Cobra, i almost never get knocked off the edge. I use the L-get-on-ledge for invulnerability (the one that still counts you as being on the edge), and I have a pretty good success rate predicting when to do it.
Edit: By the way, that low % throwdown combo Cobra was talking about is a true combo... scary.

Anything after the first dthrow>fair is not a true combo. The dthrow>fair>dthrow>nair/fair>upair/upb combo you see sometimes only works when you don't DI, airdodge, or nair in time. After about 20% or so, the dthrow>fair can be countered by tapping "a" once. It makes me kinda mad sometimes.
I made a drawing to try and explain why nair>jab beats out a shieldgrab, but I forget how to upload an image. Anyone know?
 

ADHD

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How is Ike 80-20, its so difficult to keep a flow going when you find one with good teching skills and timing :(

You cant even KO him till like 170 in the first place.
 

Squidster

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Well Ike is quite slow and has no good approaches.

The only way an Ike can win is if he plays defensively, which Sheik can easily force them to become offensive by needle camping.

Basically if you camp with Sheik and strike when Ike makes a opening you can easily three stock even the best of Ikes.

Once I realize this I stop losing to Ike completely.
Nah, Ike has a lot of openings so you won’t be camping for very long.

Most of the times I throw like 2 needles before the try to reach me though the air.

Which Ikes always use either the nair or the fair.

If it's the nair, shield and wait for the AAA combo, side stepping the last part. If they cancel the AA into a grab book woop he threw you.

Ike is so fat he can't follow any of his throws and if he starts constantly AA into grab then just side step the grab.

If he does the Fair just side step it and punish him for using such a crappy attack.

There you go; if you follow this by the letter you should do extremely well against any Ike.

By the way if the Ike get's smart and start to approach by the ground only just charge up your needles and look out for the dash attack and even if he mind games you and you get grabbed laugh once again at how useless his grab really is as it doesn’t combo into anything and is impossible for Ike to follow it up in any way.
As said by Tristan
 

ADHD

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Well anyway, I finally beat a metaknight that has given me problems FOREVER and this helped

Stay in the center of the stage, keep your ground and most of all keep it simple.

What I mean by simple is no jumping aerial needles, no DACUS, no crazy stuff.

Fsmash is beast in this battle for some reason.
 

popsofctown

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Against Sheik?... Bowser has this "trick" against every character in the game. It's usually countered by the opponent using well placed spaced moves or even simply reading the Bowser's Up B out of shield and punishing it, just like in Melee.

Now let's see, Sheik has moves with nice range for careful spacing and is pretty good at punishing Bowser since he's pretty fat. So much for a little trick against Sheik.
I'm sorry if the way I phrased it made it sound like i don't think it is a well known tactic, it is. I just meant that Bowser has whirling fortress and Ganon doesn't, and it is especially useful against Sheik because lots of Sheik's moves work better up close.
You suggest that Sheik has moves with range for careful spacing, but i do not think she has spacing abilities more so than any other character. The only time she plays the game at a really long length from her opponents is when she is using bairs.
 

demodemo

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Looking at this matchup list, Sheik really does seem like a good character, for both casual and tournament play.

Surprised me, to say the least, haha.
 

Tristan_win

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If I thought Sheik wasn't cable of higher level of play I'll be in Zamus forum right now.

That or I'll be studying some more about operation systems or programing after quitting Brawl
 

popsofctown

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Sheik's very capable of higher level play. According to the big matchup chart down in the tactical forum, Sheik has two red X's that can't be complemented with Zelda. Snake has two red X's as well, he's considered the best character in the game.
The matchup chart is pretty inaccurate, to be honest, but still i think that's something good.
 

NJzFinest

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You suggest that Sheik has moves with range for careful spacing, but i do not think she has spacing abilities more so than any other character. The only time she plays the game at a really long length from her opponents is when she is using bairs.
It was one of the things I suggested :p.
But still, think of how other characters deal with Up Bing out of shield, it's really never been matter of simply spacing, or else Bowser would be insanely hard for space animals.
 

choknater

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People are so dumb.

Nerf means unplayable to them, go back to snake!
So true. Chars like Yoshi and Mario and Jigglypuff are SO HORRIBLY underestimated because of this. Sheik is no exception (however I **** with Sheik loool so nobody I play with ever doubts her ability.)
 

Falconv1.0

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So true. Chars like Yoshi and Mario and Jigglypuff are SO HORRIBLY underestimated because of this. Sheik is no exception (however I **** with Sheik loool so nobody I play with ever doubts her ability.)
Mario is pretty **** good. Jigglypuff is usable, but ehhh, her viability is in question since I know little about her.
 

Snakeee

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Hahaha DanGR I didn't know about that, maybe I'll use Sheik on Olimar now.

btw ggs ChromePirate...mostly consisted of us spamming F-tilts and DACs lol.
 

Squidster

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Wow i owned an olimar player after reading this. The matchup is really not that bad now O_O

Nair -> jabjabjabjabjabjabjabjab -> fully charged needles is fun

edegeguarding is too easy
Ftilt works too well and will often lead to a kill. Its hard to get off but once you get it its like a few tilts -> Nair -> fair -> edgehog = win

fun matchup now =D
 

ADHD

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Wow i owned an olimar player after reading this. The matchup is really not that bad now O_O

Nair -> jabjabjabjabjabjabjabjab -> fully charged needles is fun

edegeguarding is too easy
Ftilt works too well and will often lead to a kill. Its hard to get off but once you get it its like a few tilts -> Nair -> fair -> edgehog = win

fun matchup now =D

UMMMM.... did you happen to play a G00D olimar? And don't normally edgehog, take advantage of your tether so his up B doens't hit you regardless you still get the kill.

Anyway the picture above... The jabs go over his grab, is that what that's explaining? So what, he can just use Dsmash instead.

Snakeee, my sheik is better at DACs then you!
 

NJzFinest

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Wow i owned an olimar player after reading this. The matchup is really not that bad now O_O

Nair -> jabjabjabjabjabjabjabjab -> fully charged needles is fun

edegeguarding is too easy
Ftilt works too well and will often lead to a kill. Its hard to get off but once you get it its like a few tilts -> Nair -> fair -> edgehog = win

fun matchup now =D

How does Nair go into a Fair? Also, given Fair's poor knockback, I doubt the Olimar well be far enough to simply die from an edgehog.

The only way I can see a tilt "definitely" leading into a kill is probably a sweetspotted upsmash (?). Other then that, it really depends on the player using Olimar (Nair to Fair should not connect).
UMMMM.... did you happen to play a G00D olimar?
lolz
 

Squidster

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If you get the tilt lock near the edge the Nair will send him off the edge.

When olimar is off the edge a Fair will kill him...

And i do edgehog with chain.
 

Zankoku

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Unfortunately, this is something I can't believe without seeing.
 

popsofctown

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Well, then go out and see it! Get a good Olimar, try the nair to jab approach. when the jabs push him too far, shorthop and start over again. Go try it!
 

Squidster

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Its not like... a legit combo..... Nair sends you pretty fair at like 80% and olimar is kind of easy to edgeguard.... is all.... O_O


edit - and pops he was talking to me.... i think
 

Snakeee

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Can you explain why Sheik has the advantage over Pit? I'm not arguing that it's Pit's favor, just would like to know the reasoning. I'm pretty sure you can't really out-camp him because his arrows have a little less lag than her needles.

and ChromePirate, it's harder for me to do the DAC on wifi :(
 

ADHD

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As for pit, hes annoying, but I can't point out her advantages specifically, but she's definitely got some.

Just learn the timing of pit's moves in and out and you should be fine. Lol but... be prepared to have 7 arrows in your face every cm on the screen until you get close up.

Snakeee, my DAC are affected too!
 
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