You make good points. Diddy is now 45-55 because I've only played the matchup once and won it, though it was against a worse player, so you know the matchup better, and Jiggs is now 65-35 in light of taking Zelda into account.
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Zelda+Sheik Matchup Listing
- Thread starter Zankoku
- Start date
popsofctown
Smash Champion
I use Zelda and her reflector against Diddy, do you think that's a better choice?
Tristan_win
Not dead.
No I don't in fact I would go as far as to say Diddy is a Zelda counter.
Diddy is all about pressure play which Zelda has always have had trouble against mix that with how short he is you wont be landing many sweet spot fair or bair on him. Oh and even if you reflect his bananas he will just dash attack into them since you can't shield grab him out of it ..or when it end.
Also most Diddy I've face likes staying at mid distance only to enter close with his unsheild grabable dash attack or with his surprisingly long ranging tilts.
Seriously that Monkey has some crazy range on all of his tilts especially his ftilt, if someone told me right now it had equal or more range then Marth sword I wouldn’t be surprised.
But yeah, this is one of the few matches I rarely ever go Zelda and if I ever do it’s never on FD or SV.
Matumakka
Smash Cadet
I dont find lucas easy either....i fought an incredible lucas the other day and he completely left me speechless. but apparently my Capt Falcon was a good match for him. so i dont see how that works out.
Snake is already considered neutral against sheik cause of the f-tilt combo.
Snake is already considered neutral against sheik cause of the f-tilt combo.
Tristan_win
Not dead.
They make incredible Lucas? *shrugs*
Every Lucas I've fought have been a pain filled match but never hard just annoying.
Lucas has way too many moves that leave him completely open for attack and his recovery is pretty gimpable with needles. You may not be able to attack him from below but sheik can combo the kid pretty well.
ADHD
Smash Hero
Vs jigglypuff?
You guys are going to think this is a joke, but she's so fing annoying. She's very difficult to hit and she can gimp sheik's recovery so easily. The nair is the only thing that will hit regularly, but her aerials collide often.
EDIT: Nvm, ill just go the unicorn princess
You guys are going to think this is a joke, but she's so fing annoying. She's very difficult to hit and she can gimp sheik's recovery so easily. The nair is the only thing that will hit regularly, but her aerials collide often.
EDIT: Nvm, ill just go the unicorn princess
popsofctown
Smash Champion
Neither Diddy i've played has been very good, so maybe that led me to the wrong character. I would still maintain though that there are some uses for Zelda's reflector, you can bounce really close range banana's so they come back and trip Diddy, and also you can convert banana's that are high in the air with low risk/cost. It would probably be better if i would learn better gimping.
Changed PT from 60-40 to 70-30, Wolf from 60-40 to 50-50, Wario from 40-60 to 35-75. Feel free to keep discussing and debate with me over any of these changes if you disagree with them.
there are no diddy in socal haha. They only exist in norcal apparently.
but yeah as for g&w, I have a pretty good understanding of it. For sure, I know that it's in his favor match up but it's not super bad against him. The thing I notice the most is the fact that they love to spam their aerials because most of the time there is no consequences from it. Then there's the down throw to whatever the heck happens next, and etc.
Usually I know that my tilts have less range than his aerials so I can't just walk in and start tilting. So one of the best idea is to make him go defensive and he will throw out aerials to keep himself away from u. Most of the time, they don't know that sheik is really fast and that you can run in and hurt them from the aerials by either a running attack or a needle shield cancel into tilts. He also can't bucket the needle so that's a big major plus too. I would say almost never try to jump out and hit him because that up b have crazy properties now! Usually u just get hit or u can't hit him. Although this take practice but if you up b right when he up b and you get the boost from the trampoline too, then usually the vanish will explode with him and it's awesome haha. Very hard though.
So yeah I say needles and a lot of pressuring to make him go defensive because defensive g&w doesn't seem like that big of a threat to me. Although, I usually can punish any1 who stay back instead of rushing me.
but yeah as for g&w, I have a pretty good understanding of it. For sure, I know that it's in his favor match up but it's not super bad against him. The thing I notice the most is the fact that they love to spam their aerials because most of the time there is no consequences from it. Then there's the down throw to whatever the heck happens next, and etc.
Usually I know that my tilts have less range than his aerials so I can't just walk in and start tilting. So one of the best idea is to make him go defensive and he will throw out aerials to keep himself away from u. Most of the time, they don't know that sheik is really fast and that you can run in and hurt them from the aerials by either a running attack or a needle shield cancel into tilts. He also can't bucket the needle so that's a big major plus too. I would say almost never try to jump out and hit him because that up b have crazy properties now! Usually u just get hit or u can't hit him. Although this take practice but if you up b right when he up b and you get the boost from the trampoline too, then usually the vanish will explode with him and it's awesome haha. Very hard though.
So yeah I say needles and a lot of pressuring to make him go defensive because defensive g&w doesn't seem like that big of a threat to me. Although, I usually can punish any1 who stay back instead of rushing me.
popsofctown
Smash Champion
I still think Sheik can do 30-70 or 40-60 against Olimar.
I really can't see 40-60 happening. 30-70 is a possibility, but I haven't played the matchup recently so I can't make a judgment on it at the moment.
demodemo
Smash Ace
sorry for the late answer but
My friend mains pika, we 1v1 a lot
pikachu can easily toss an unexperienced sheik around with that ****ing dsmash and thunder. ( i used to get tossed around by this **** -___-)
when you learn how to di/airdodge out of that, it is pretty even.
pikachu's approaches can be avoided by sheik easily with good spacing, and that landing lag on his bair is asking for ftilts (sheik can get around 4 or 5 comfortably with pika). Pikachus aerials are strong, but clearly slower then sheiks, and lacks the range of sheik's bair. (pikachu's bair is not bad, but too punishable) the lightning jolt thingys are easily avoided with easy to time shorthops, whereas pika actually has a hard time avoiding the needles without approaching/shielding.
EDIT dam, i frogot pika can crawl and is small enough to avoid needles. my friend never crouches lol. what im trying to get at here is pikachu does not have a very good air game, and needles are most effective on the ground.
offstage side B for pikachu is gimpable by a well placed vanish, and agility is not a move to be feared while edgegaurding.
however, pikachu also has its advantages against sheik, such as the crazy ko ability that is fsmash, higher priority aerials, and that THUNDER is a ****ing good edgegaurd.
what i want to know is, why is zelda considered a hard matchup for sheik? the only thing i can think of is Dins, which if avoided...sheik is fast enough to combo zelda without zelda unleashing one of her death moves.
Squidster
Smash Ace
Also vs pikachu... don't get grabbed.
Dthrow is a *****.
Dthrow is a *****.
Tristan_win
Not dead.
Not much talk after I posted this but it seems that Sheik chain can stop all of Olimar attacks
I think this might make the fight a bit easier.
Edit: I've recently fought a good Wario and I'm kind of at a lost on how to fight him.
Any ideas besides going Zelda?
I think this might make the fight a bit easier.
Edit: I've recently fought a good Wario and I'm kind of at a lost on how to fight him.
Any ideas besides going Zelda?
Snakeee
Smash Master
I've just heard that Sheik could infinite Wolf with up-tilt, is this true?
Stay the **** away when you're not in control, keep your needles charged (don't throw them immediately, Wario can punish predictable single shots) and rely a LOT on Sheik's maneuverability to punish Wario's mistakes, because he's certainly not going to show any openings when he's near you.
Snake: Seeing as how utilt has a knockback that sends the opponent away.... no, that's not true at all.
Snake: Seeing as how utilt has a knockback that sends the opponent away.... no, that's not true at all.
Squidster
Smash Ace
I hate to say it but I pretty much stay zelda the whole fight vs wario... Usmash is too good. Wario on the ground is... well bad.
As sheik i find myself running away most of the fight which is a pain...
As sheik i find myself running away most of the fight which is a pain...
ADHD
Smash Hero
I cant stand lucario
Wtf do I do when hes on a spam happy fair day
Wtf do I do when hes on a spam happy fair day
Squidster
Smash Ace
Shieldgrab.
Ftilt.
Run away.
DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWNNNNNNNNNNNNN NSMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMASSSSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHH.
sorry couldn't help myself ._.
Ftilt.
Run away.
DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWNNNNNNNNNNNNN NSMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMASSSSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHH.
sorry couldn't help myself ._.
Tristan_win
Not dead.
Just run away throwing needles when he lands. If you time it right then it's impossible to dodge them.
Squidster
Smash Ace
There was a thread awhile ago in tactical discussion talking about how you should take advantage of the vulnerable frame when you land.
Do it with needles
Do it with needles
Squidster
Smash Ace
Lets go a little more in depth on snake
I've recently started playing a decent snake and feel like i'm in control most of the fight. I'll often get it to where he's at about 100% and i'm only at like 30 or 40.
But i can't kill him till 150%... with zelda. The first few matches i changed to zelda at about 115 and saw the Usmash carry him to the top... and saw him fall back down. Usmash doesn't kill till about 140%
I figured i should try to gimp him but thats also kinda hard.
Then i get to 90%... eat a Utilt, and die. It's frustrating cause i'm in control but i lose anyways >.<
Thoughts?
I've recently started playing a decent snake and feel like i'm in control most of the fight. I'll often get it to where he's at about 100% and i'm only at like 30 or 40.
But i can't kill him till 150%... with zelda. The first few matches i changed to zelda at about 115 and saw the Usmash carry him to the top... and saw him fall back down. Usmash doesn't kill till about 140%
I figured i should try to gimp him but thats also kinda hard.
Then i get to 90%... eat a Utilt, and die. It's frustrating cause i'm in control but i lose anyways >.<
Thoughts?
If you can land a fair or bair, that'll kill REALLY early. Earlier than any of her smashes. But dsmash works pretty well to set up for Din's Fire guarding. Actually, I use dsmash to kill Snake most of the time unless he's at a ridiculously high % that hitting him with anything would work.
25%Cotton
Smash Ace
using zelda you should be able to jump up and wait out his airdodge to get in a uair...
if not, i find shorthopped double bairs to be really useful. opponents never seem to expect that you can get another bair kick after the first one, so it can be a reliable source of lightning kicks when used sparingly.
with sheik... i'm sorry, but i'm not good enough with sheik yet.
Squidster
Smash Ace
Uair is hard to hit with...
Fun, but not reliable
Fun, but not reliable
demodemo
Smash Ace
I love facing snake
I can get him to 150+ so fast ^^
but that is when the real fight begins, because as long as I am past 50% I am very close to dead meat x_x
still, the time spent getting snake to 150 is stuff i could do all day!
I can get him to 150+ so fast ^^
but that is when the real fight begins, because as long as I am past 50% I am very close to dead meat x_x
still, the time spent getting snake to 150 is stuff i could do all day!
choknater
Smash Obsessed
Squidster is correct... My usual solution is to stay Sheik, and stay in control of the match as much as possible. I know it's risky to want to get him to like 180% for the KO lol... but Sheik's fast enough to do it as long as you play perfectly.
However, probably the only reason I do that is because I'm not a great Zelda player.
One thing I like to do is Vanish KO him on the landing lag after he falls from the Cypher.
Killing him off the side with a nair, fsmash, or dsmash is also a good choice.
* * * * *
Anyway, I took another look at the last, and I've found that it is QUITE accurate.
Just a couple nitpicks: What's the reasoning on Bowser being even and Peach being slightly unfavorable? In my eyes, Sheik has the advantage. Is it just me?
However, probably the only reason I do that is because I'm not a great Zelda player.
One thing I like to do is Vanish KO him on the landing lag after he falls from the Cypher.
Killing him off the side with a nair, fsmash, or dsmash is also a good choice.
* * * * *
Anyway, I took another look at the last, and I've found that it is QUITE accurate.
Just a couple nitpicks: What's the reasoning on Bowser being even and Peach being slightly unfavorable? In my eyes, Sheik has the advantage. Is it just me?
Squidster
Smash Ace
I agree that bowser is probably favorable, bowser has range and priority but sheik wins out in the air hands down.
On the ground ground, theres always needle camping.
I think i agree that peach is slightly unfavorable. Dair at the right height is hard to deal with sometimes, as are other areals for peach. Peach cannot be that effectively needle camped thanks to floating and she can literally force the entire battle to be played in the air.
However zelda kicks her ***....
On the ground ground, theres always needle camping.
I think i agree that peach is slightly unfavorable. Dair at the right height is hard to deal with sometimes, as are other areals for peach. Peach cannot be that effectively needle camped thanks to floating and she can literally force the entire battle to be played in the air.
However zelda kicks her ***....
ADHD
Smash Hero
Diddy is even with sheik.
I went against AZ and I noticed he's easy to tilt lock, and his combat skills are bleh when it comes to sheik's.
Just a note: GET THE HELL FIRST TO THE NANERZ BEFORE HIM.
Basically, if you let him on a naner rant, you're screwed. But if you can intercept the bananas, just do what you normally do from there.
You can gimp his recovery with a needle to (his barrel launcher) and then edgehog when you need invincibility frames.
I went against AZ and I noticed he's easy to tilt lock, and his combat skills are bleh when it comes to sheik's.
Just a note: GET THE HELL FIRST TO THE NANERZ BEFORE HIM.
Basically, if you let him on a naner rant, you're screwed. But if you can intercept the bananas, just do what you normally do from there.
You can gimp his recovery with a needle to (his barrel launcher) and then edgehog when you need invincibility frames.
Villi
Smash Lord
Air dodge baiting to uair could be useful if you manage to decay your Usmash. At least it'll still get him in the air. 120% is my safe percentage against Snake for a star KO.
Bair trickery works, too, and her utilt
Tristan_win
Not dead.
Easy to tilt lock? Psh, I full heartily disagree as you can't tilt lock Diddy unless your opponent doesn't know how to DI out correctly.
Also Diddy combat skilled are really good they are at least even with Sheik as far as range and speed goes.
It's also nearly impossible to stop a good Diddy from throwing out more bananas especial if he jumps before doing so. When those cursed bananas fall they gain a hit box which make them into a good shield against rushers. It is possible to catch one but Diddy can just throw out another.
Whenever I fight a good Diddly it always close and it's only when I gain control of the bananas does the fight become a bit easier. Even without the bananas Diddy is still able to fight and approach effectively.
Qzzy
Smash Journeyman
I've faced an okay diddy and also very decent one. Diddy is hard.
He's way good up close. And bananas are evil. And i feel like he's better at KOing. Hm... Man, I'd switch mains if it were more comfortable. v_v
Tristan has it right. It doesn't even out until you can get some control of the bananas.
He's way good up close. And bananas are evil. And i feel like he's better at KOing. Hm... Man, I'd switch mains if it were more comfortable. v_v
Tristan has it right. It doesn't even out until you can get some control of the bananas.
ADHD
Smash Hero
Dude, this is alphazealot, she knows diddy almost more than anyone.
What I mean is, diddy has alot to focus on at once, and hes easy to get him into tilt lock.
Sheik definitely outranges him, diddy's biggest range attacks are his shutter step fsmash and his fair and ftilt, and sheik's fsmash is much more range-covering, as is her bair.
popsofctown
Smash Champion
I also use Zelda the whole fight against Zelda, although you probably all know that ashames me less. Wario is pretty much pure aerialist, and Zelda has really good capabilities against aerialists.
I have also found the chain is really good/fun against pikmin, but there's still the disgustingly long after lag. I haven't looked at the chain thread that popped up, i'll see if there are really some good solutions.
"She?" AlphaZealot's a guy. And in case you thought differently, I'm a guy, too.
Diddy has better control over the ground than Sheik, but Sheik should be more effective aerial-wise...
Tristan_win
Not dead.
Wait...I thought Alpha was a guy, well I guess that shows how much I know about the moderators lol. ~Edit: Ankoku knows his **** so if he's going to be that sure sounding then I'm going to assume he's right after all I remember hearing he has a backroom pass so odds are he has talk to alpha.
Anyways although the fsmash does have good range the attack it self is very slow when compared to Sheiks other attacks and because of the very poor amount of priority of the first kick it shouldn't be used ever to approach.
Because of it's speed and very poor priority I never consider it as a true part of Sheik range but more of a tool to punish such things as side steppers or setting people up to be gimp easily when I'm able to combo into it.
Now what really surprise me is how your saying you manage to get diddly into a tilt lock in the first place. To my understanding Diddy only gets close when it's safe to or when using their dash attack. Sheik is quick but how did you manage to even land a tilt on that monkey or even get close enough to constantly?
Did you play a extremely high level of pressure play or something?
By the way I must ask....did you win any?
ADHD
Smash Hero
Lol, so close >_< "She" (I swear alpha's a girl? lol, well anyway thats beyond the point) had 100+ damage on the last stock, but then she had full control of her nanerz at my last stock at 0 percent. I put up a good fight at then, but I couldn't get control of the nanerz and it was too **** late. I had diddy dittos too, I almost beat her on the last stock too but then I had quadruple nanerz in my face and I was like "oh sh*t." The second ditto I got owned though.
If you mean by pressure... its as simple as getting the nanerz under your belt and limiting some of diddy's options, but the naner control turns quick so you have to keep watching. Once you get both nanerz, odds are they're going to dash attack or airdodge into one, getting you the hell away and try and recover their control of the stage.
Diddy isn't as good as sheik with close combat moves. You can just trip him then get a few tilts.
By the way I must ask....did you win any?[/QUOTE]
Alpha Zealot is not a girl. I'm not sure how you came up with that.
http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Alpha_Zealot
http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Alpha_Zealot
ADHD
Smash Hero
Deception
Smash Ace
A 90-10 matchup against Ganondorf? I'm pretty sure Sheik does have an advantage, but that number seems a little too high. Mind telling me the reasoning behind this extreme number?