Zelda+Sheik Matchup Listing

[Snakeee]

The damage output of the eggs seem to about balance the fact that we can get a few extra needles in...

 

[Mmac]

I'm going to move Yoshi down to even for the two solo matchups, with a +10 in the team's favor. Fair enough?

I was mainly talking about Sheik though. I haven't really played much Zelda's. The only difference I see that happened is that Yoshi's Nair now stops Din's Fire. Also I heard that Yoshi can pressure Zelda well if he can get in through her high priority attacks.

I don't know much, but I don't think it's at the same scale as Sheik. I say Zelda vs. Yoshi is about 55:45 Zelda at the least.

But I agree with Sheik, and probably Zelda/Sheik too.

 

[Le_THieN]

Sheik can dash under a lot of projectiles and can crouch under Falco's laser. I don't think you can really make much of a statement about her height since that only applies if she's standing or walking.

I'm not sure if this is common knowledge, but I feel it might be also worth mentioning that Sheik can also crawl under and past Falco's reflector and punish him with either a D-tilt sweep or a fully charged Needle Storm once the actual reflector is behind you. This is an equal amount of utility for every other character capable of crawling (including Lucario, who has arguably the least useful crawl in the game), especially Diddy when he's armed with a banana.

 

[TKD]

Oh my god, is this for real? Our matchups are amazing...I only have to avoid G&W then.

I fight MK evenly. Tiltlock, space dashgrabs w/e, land a smash at 85% to get him away, fullhop outside the stage while switching to Zelda, KO as Zelda, switch back to Sheik, repeat.

Only hard part is Sheik is gimpable, but staying near the center of the stage can help. The matchup is probably really only slightly disfavored, Lucario is harder for me. I call Metaknight 40/60.

I don't know about G&W though...is G&W an east coast thing? Seems so.

 

[popsofctown]

um, G-dub is really really popular here in the southeast. We had two of them in a top four once, i have been knocked out by Game and Watch 3/6 times.

It's a pretty tough matchup. I've picked up one of the 2 game and watch counters (there is so very few)

 

[Charoo]

yoshi back air is like the low tier version of g&w turtle (not saying it sucks because it's really good).

I was fighting sheik vs yoshi recently after getting some falcon vs yoshi footage. Yoshi back air mind game me cause it's auto cancel with a **** load of shield damage. I tried to grab him after back air finish but he just moves behind u and do other things.

Egg throw is totally **** if you fight on big stages (fd and stuff). It's very hard to chase yoshi cause when u get close, they can back air or neutral air you. One of the main advantage in sheik vs yoshi though is that once you get through yoshi's defense, sheik is all over yoshi pretty well.

Edge guarding vs yoshi will be kinda weird in the beginning. Like his egg throw trajectory might throw u off cause it actually sends him really far. The best thing to do is grab the edge like right before he throws the egg. By the time he throws another one, just stay on the ledge and it will probably hit you if you don't roll at the right moment. By doing that though, yoshi might go too low by the time you r knock off the ledge and can't grab it anymore.

Oh yeah, yoshi's up air *****. It's like fox's melee up air. So watch out for that. They can chain grab to spike too so don't be near the edge too much. Battlefield platform and stuff r too high too so those won't help =(

I can see this match up being pretty even though. Maybe like 55-45 in sheik's favor at best. Yoshi is very hard to edge guard and he have move to retaliate your combos. Also he's freaking heavy aka fat haha =p

edit: as for falcon vs sheik, it is definitely not 90-10 >_< sheik does **** falcon mroe than zelda though. I say like 70-30 for sheik and 60-40 for zelda and 75-25 at most for sheik/zelda. I **** zelda for breakfast with falcon but i'll pass on sheik (she can liek 0 to death falcon without even trying haha)

 

[TKD]

um, G-dub is really really popular here in the southeast. We had two of them in a top four once, i have been knocked out by Game and Watch 3/6 times.

It's a pretty tough matchup. I've picked up one of the 2 game and watch counters (there is so very few)

Heh, can't imagine G&W being that hard for MK, Marth, Wolf and others. His aerials get him stuck in his attack animation and have landing lag (at least a bit), and he has trouble KOing because his smashes are so easy to stay away from. Those G&W must be very good...he's not that popular anywhere else I think, he just gets ***** by characters that have nice mobility and spacing options.

I only imagine G&W having doubles potential. I just haven't bumped into a great G&W. He sounds like he's even more popular than MK over there, which is downright strange.

 

[Zankoku]

I hate you, Yoshi.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-EJGZMfL-Y

Stop making me think you're viable and then do **** like that.

 

[popsofctown]

G&W is a really good character. His aerials can have landing lag, but you don't see it in tournament, the G&W's all start the aerials early enough that they can finish them. Either that or they land so far away that i can't punish. I dunno, i'm not a G&W expert. But he's considered a top character for a reason.

His smashes are on the slow side, but they all kill abnormally early, that's how he makes up for it. And his fsmash hitbox lingers for long than a spotdodge, that will always get you.

 

[x After Dawn x]

You obviously haven't played a good G&W if you don't know why G&W is a top character.

 

[TKD]

Well, I play a mean G&W...I've played "decent" G&W'es. He's not that great, at least not against MK, Marth and some others. I don't know about Zelda/Sheik though.

 

[-Mars-]

Well, I play a mean G&W...I've played "decent" G&W'es. He's not that great, at least not against MK, Marth and some others. I don't know about Zelda/Sheik though.

At 90% both Zelda and Sheik die with one smash......that should explain everything right there. He also outprioritizes everything you have.

 

[Squidster]

G&W has been talked about quite extensively.
Just watch for smash attack, spam needles, approach from above, and use vanish cause its sexy.

Basically, play defensively

 

[x After Dawn x]

Well, I play a mean G&W...I've played "decent" G&W'es. He's not that great, at least not against MK, Marth and some others. I don't know about Zelda/Sheik though.

What are you talking about? Some of his attacks are excellent against MK. Dsmash can kill MK at 65 % or so. And G&W is a good character, definitely 3rd or 4th best in the game. He's not "not that great."

 

[TKD]

LOL, not true. But let's keep Sheik talk going, I don't need to know more about G&W.

Also, can someone tell me why the Zelda/Sheik tag team IS NOT even against Metaknight?


Come on, how is it not!?

 

[-Mars-]

That MK didn't really look all that great to me, I didn't even see one shuttle loop in the first match, I didn't watch the second match. I think the SHeik/Zelda hybrid is 60:40 MK..........he's just too good.

 

[TKD]

That MK didn't really look all that great to me, I didn't even see one shuttle loop in the first match, I didn't watch the second match. I think the SHeik/Zelda hybrid is 60:40 MK..........he's just too good.

We know each other, and I'm great against Metaknight because I kind of hate the character. My guess is he was afraid to shuttle loop. I **** MK players who Shuttle Loop too often, too. Also the ones that Mach Tornado too often. Sheik's dsmash outprioritizes the nado, plus she has no major trouble shielding it.

Your argument is only that MK is too good...

I go 50/50 against great Metaknight players. I just do better against average ones, obviously.

Here's my input on the matchup:

Sheik can ftilt lock MK from 30% to 60%. She can give or take damage depending on how evasive you are, since Sheik has such amazing mobility, great range on her upair and almost no startup or landing lag on nair and fair. At above 80%, you can downsmash or dash+upsmash Metaknight to get him away from you and give you time to transform. From there, Zelda KO's very easily.

Needles help too. A lot actually. Sheik's weakness against MK is MK's edgeguard. H*1L, her only real weakness is getting edgeguarded after MK hits a shuttle loop or a downsmash. You can somewhat make up for this by staying near the center of the stage. A skilled Sheik player is also very hard to pressure.

PLUS...that video is from my SECOND TIME playing as Sheik. I'll go to a couple tourneys this weekend. I'll try to rep Sheik!!

BTW: Zelda/Sheik vs MK is 50/50 or 40/60 in MK's favor (don't think so though, she seems better than DK, an "even" matchup). 35/65? Eww!! Lucario and G&W are worse matchups than Metaknight.

EDIT: Vid removed. I'd better post me vs a top pro or something next time I see one so I don't get harshly shut down.

 

[-Mars-]

We know each other, and I'm great against Metaknight because I kind of hate the character. My guess is he was afraid to shuttle loop. I **** MK players who Shuttle Loop too often, too. Also the ones that Mach Tornado too often. Sheik's dsmash outprioritizes the nado, plus she has no major trouble shielding it.

Your argument is only that MK is too good...

I go 50/50 against great Metaknight players. I just do better against average ones, obviously.

Here's my input on the matchup:

Sheik can ftilt lock MK from 30% to 60%. She can give or take damage depending on how evasive you are, since Sheik has such amazing mobility, great range on her upair and almost no startup or landing lag on nair and fair. At above 80%, you can downsmash or dash+upsmash Metaknight to get him away from you and give you time to transform. From there, Zelda KO's very easily.

Needles help too. A lot actually. Sheik's weakness against MK is MK's edgeguard. H*1L, her only real weakness is getting edgeguarded after MK hits a shuttle loop or a downsmash. You can somewhat make up for this by staying near the center of the stage. A skilled Sheik player is also very hard to pressure.

PLUS...that video is from my SECOND TIME playing as Sheik. I'll go to a couple tourneys this weekend. I'll try to rep Sheik!!

BTW: Zelda/Sheik vs MK is 50/50 or 40/60 in MK's favor (don't think so though, she seems better than DK, an "even" matchup). 35/65? Eww!! Lucario and G&W are worse matchups than Metaknight.

EDIT: Vid removed. I'd better post me vs a top pro or something next time I see one so I don't get harshly shut down.

You talk like you can just get a tilt lock off on every stock against a MK......how? Approaching MK is really hard and he has no trouble approaching you even if you needle camp, also his dsmash r8pes anything you can throw at him and his tornado eats your sheild alive if your just going to shield for the duration of it. Zelda is even worse at approaching than Sheik, she just does well against MK because of her KO power and her defensive options(dsmash,utilt,fsmash,usmash). The Zelda matchup by itself may be 50:50, but the Sheik matchup by itself is 65:35 MK, hence the 60:40 MK advantage.

 

[Zankoku]

There is no possible way an above-average character with the ability to switch what her weaknesses and strengths are is even against a character that is superior overall in every trait except weight and KO power (vs Zelda).

The only way you'll land a hit on a Meta Knight is if you capitalize on a mistake the MK player makes, and obviously the better the MK, the fewer mistakes you'll get to work with. Landing, of all things, an ftilt on a MK at low % is particularly difficult.

 

[demodemo]

TKD, maybe im just bad, but metaknight is not as easy as you say it is

for example, down smash. what do you do about that? It out ranges your forward tilt, evens/outranges your downsmash, finishes before a spotdodge, and comes out fast/the same speed as those moves. immediately, meta has an amazing defensive game. the only option is needles, but that just means he has to approach you, but dsmash is so fast he can just run up, sheild, dsmash, until you are off stage. he can even jump, then drill rush you (meta has to jump to avoid needles ending drill rush)

as far as i know

sheik has virtually no options against metaknight when he is edgeguarding.

I only get damage on meta in the air (needles too)

I find myself forcing to somehow get in him utilizing an airdodge to grab him to get him in the air since he is so dam hard to approach

even in the air, meta knights air game is amazing, but at least at this point sheik can do something. her uair out ranges meta's dair and so does her bair. thats about it. fair is not going to do much and dont even try to gimp him off stage (shuttle loop is lol)

as if it is not apparent enough already, ftilting metaknight is not the easiest thing to do since all of his ground moves come out as fast and outrange forward tilt.

 

[-Mars-]

There is no possible way an above-average character with the ability to switch what her weaknesses and strengths are is even against a character that is superior overall in every trait except weight and KO power (vs Zelda).

The only way you'll land a hit on a Meta Knight is if you capitalize on a mistake the MK player makes, and obviously the better the MK, the fewer mistakes you'll get to work with. Landing, of all things, an ftilt on a MK at low % is particularly difficult.

A defensive Zelda is even against Meta Knight, She can sit there and force approach and then use upsmash, dsmash, and fsmash to keep him away.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Except that gets really predictable too quickly and the slight lag after the aerials, along with the big hitboxes on Meta Knight's sword, allows him to capitalize those actions Zelda makes. Plus, Meta Knight can approach her through several ways such as the drill rush and tornado and possibly outprioritize her attacks.

 

[Charoo]

let's talk about pikachu guys

something that never fully came up to me until lately. Sheik is my only option since fox gets own by pikachu HARD. Falcon doesn't do that well either but not that bad either.

What makes sheik so bad vs pikachu? Chaingrab and what else? I need some input

 

[rinoH]

uhh i guess thunder bolt and d smash

 

[x After Dawn x]

Well, first of all, you can't really edgeguard Pikachu because no matter how many times you try, Pikachu's godlike recovery will just keep bringing him back to the stage. This, combined with a problem getting KOs, means that Pikachu will just survive Sheik's attacks and keep returning to the stage.

 

[TKD]

The Sheik vs MK matchup is all about dashgrabbing and shielding (to ftilt/grab). It'll only work if you're great at moving around (= played melee lol). I main MK so I know when he's vulnerable. As for recovery, I go low, airjump upair and vanish/chain.

For KOs, smash around 85%, transform to Zelda, KO (upsmash mostly), transform to Sheik. And for the nado. I think it's great against Zelda, but you can simply downsmash as Sheik to outprioritize it. If it's performed too high above ground, it may be better just to shield it, and not to punish its ending lag if you're not sure you will actually punish successfully.

And yes, Pikachu hurts

 

[Zankoku]

If all you do is dashgrab and shield, Meta Knight will spotdodge your dashgrab into a dsmash and grab you when you shield. Hell, that applies to anyone, actually. Unless the player sucks.

 

[imdavid]

I went into this thread hoping to see an awesome Ankoku banner sig. Woe is me...

 

[-Mars-]

I went into this thread hoping to see an awesome Ankoku banner sig. Woe is me...

lol one of his last ones scared the s**t out of me

 

[infernovia]

Ankoku, can you explain why the matchup with DK is neutral for zelda? I know that DK can clank Din's fire with his dash attacks and his neutral air. Is it because he is a bigger target for sweetspot kills?

 

[Zankoku]

I'd prefer if people explained Zelda's matchups to me, because I'm not a Zelda player.

 

[imdavid]

Maybe we should change the ike matchup to his favor seeing what he did to texas

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

hrmm... I'm torn about what to think about this thread.

while I'm quite pleased that someone is taking the initiative to make a Zelda/Shiek matchup thread.... the person making it doesn't seem to have a strong grasp of Zelda.... and, honestly, at the professioanly level.. I haven't seen ANYONE who uses Zelda and Shiek together just as well... so I mean... this matchup thread more provides accurate Shiek matchups and contains matchups for using shiek and then switching to zelda to KO (but even then not using Zelda to her fullest) and then has zelda matchups that are VERY hit and miss... I mean ness, Metaknight and Icies just jump right out at me... Zelda goes even with ness... virtually even with metaknight and has a 70:30 advantage on icies...

but, I digress... at this point the zelda boards are TERRIBLY behind in a useful matchup thread, so it'll take a bit before we can get a full one to you to work off of.

as it is now, Royal Blood is helping us make one... it's not perfect, but so far it's pretty accurate.


And... really... I don't want to offend Ankoku... but, based off of the matchups I've seen involving Ankoku's Zelda/Shiek... he should really just stick to shiek until he gets better with Zelda. I'm not saying he's awful or anything... just that he really doesn;t understand her near as well as he should... which I'm sure affects how accurate this thread is at the moment.

 

[popsofctown]

Ankoku defers [relies on others' experience/opinions] to generate most of his opinions on Zelda's matchups, which is why they are in general, very very accurate. This is one of the best matchup threads on the boards. This thread is consistently more accurate then the one being generated in the Zelda boards.


I can't explain why Zelda v. DK is 50-50, because i don't think it is. DK out ranges Zelda for most of the matchup... I'm almost disinclined to switch to Zelda for kills.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

which is why they are in general, very very accurate. This is one of the best matchup threads on the boards. This thread is consistently more accurate then the one being generated in the Zelda boards.

based on some of the match-ups I see (the ones mentioned in particular) I'm am HIGHLY inclined to respectfully disagree.

 

[Zankoku]

And... really... I don't want to offend Ankoku... but, based off of the matchups I've seen involving Ankoku's Zelda/Shiek... he should really just stick to shiek until he gets better with Zelda. I'm not saying he's awful or anything... just that he really doesn;t understand her near as well as he should... which I'm sure affects how accurate this thread is at the moment.

This is hilarious and a complete failure of logic. "You're not very good at Zelda, therefore you should stop using her at all until you get better with her."

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

This is hilarious and a complete failure of logic. "You're not very good at Zelda, therefore you should stop using her at all until you get better with her."

well if you look at it that way... yes... I suppose it DOES sound silly... I guess the only way to get better with her is to play her more.... I was just saying that in any matchup I saw you dual main... as soon as you brought out Zelda, you foe started gaining back momentum. I mean If you want to learn how to use Zelda better, by all means, keep using her... I was just worried that you were using your zelda experience to come up with matchups when your zelda needs work.... and.... honestly... the better way to get better with zelda is to try zelda alone a lot, not attached to shiek, otherwise you'll just fall back onto shiek as soon as things start going bad instead of getting better with zelda... then once you are better with zelda to stick them together once again.

there's a lot more to zelda than the very 1 dimensional styles I see every match I'm referred to... not of you... of almost anyone. Zelda's metagame is developing way too slowly for my taste... and... no I'm not trying to be hypocritical.. I admit my zelda could use some work and my shiek could as well.

 

[Zankoku]

...or, I can do whatever I feel like. The matchup listing is something that the community as a whole is supposed to contribute to, not just me. My personal playing ability should have nothing to do with anything, and I can't really think of any reason why you'd bring it up except as an entirely dubious support of "I don't think Ankoku wrote the Zelda matchups correctly." Huh, funny. Does that mean the matchup listings on the Zelda boards are being made solely by the best Zelda player there?

I never used my experience with Zelda to come up with the Zelda matchups, I just threw up some random numbers that for some reason people rarely ever contested with good evidence. The ones that were contested with good evidence were subsequently changed.

Honestly, I have a hard time really caring about Zelda, but since other people do I figured I should at least opt for completeness.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

...or, I can do whatever I feel like.

geez learn how to take criticism in stride... I said nothing that you should have had to get so defensive about but now you're just being a prick.

The matchup listing is something that the community as a whole is supposed to contribute to, not just me. My personal playing ability should have nothing to do with anything, and I can't really think of any reason why you'd bring it up except as an entirely dubious support of "I don't think Ankoku wrote the Zelda matchups correctly." Huh, funny. Does that mean the matchup listings on the Zelda boards are being made solely by the best Zelda player there?

this is a shiek board... so the fact that the zelda matchups run so askew from the zelda boards set up a big red flag that something was amiss. and there is a grand shortage of Zelda/Shiek mains out there... so... yes... I figured that most, if not all the basis for Zelda/Shiek's matchups came from you or other shiek players without a huge amount of Zelda experience.

I never used my experience with Zelda to come up with the Zelda matchups, I just threw up some random numbers that for some reason people rarely ever contested with good evidence. The ones that were contested with good evidence were subsequently changed.

Honestly, I have a hard time really caring about Zelda, but since other people do I figured I should at least opt for completeness.

completeness means nothing if it sacrifices accuracy. And this is the problem I'm talking about... you are a shiek main... a shiek main who occasionally switches to zelda for KOs... as are most "Zelda/Shiek" mains out there... the point is... assuming everyone helping you come up with this was of your mindset, then Zelda's matchups would be all askew and Zelda/Shiek's would only come out of the experience of Zelda/Shiek users who were only really comfortable as shiek...

now, while this matchup thread really doesn't affect anything... I mean.. I still know who Zelda does and does not fare well against regardless of what this thread says, it really doesn't do justice to Zelda for anyone who DOSN'T know her matchups. While I could blame my fellow Zelda mains for not getting in here to help assuage that, really, how should they have known? it IS in a shiek forum afterall.

But I digress... Zelda mains are so few and far between (much less Zelda mains who can use shiek) that I highly doubt our boards will get out a solid matchup thread on this for years. Making this the best one to date I suppose... but really I'd get some more experience with Zelda in on these matchups... be it your own or others.

 

[Zankoku]

YOU know Zelda's matchups? Then you really ought to be telling me what her matchups are and why instead of talking a lot and saying nothing.

I see your "criticism" as barely that, since I have a hard time figuring out the intent behind all your words, lol. If you could stop spending.. 5 paragraphs basically saying "I don't think Zelda's matchups are accurate" and instead use those 5 paragraphs talking about the matchups you know and how you see them, maybe we can get somewhere.