Zelda+Sheik Matchup Listing

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

YOU know Zelda's matchups? Then you really ought to be telling me what her matchups are and why instead of talking a lot and saying nothing.

I see your "criticism" as barely that, since I have a hard time figuring out the intent behind all your words, lol. If you could stop spending.. 5 paragraphs basically saying "I don't think Zelda's matchups are accurate" and instead use those 5 paragraphs talking about the matchups you know and how you see them, maybe we can get somewhere.

okay... fair enough.

well actually there is a HUGE topic on the ness boards about why it's an even matchup between Ness and Zelda and there's a blurb in Zelda's matchup thread too... but that's one I'm positive about. Zelda is 50:50... or at least roughly 50:50 with ness.

Ice climbers I honestly don't play against a whole lot but I know some others do... and even IC mains say Zelda is a very tough matchup for them. I say it's probably 70:30 Zelda based on all the evidence and experience I have with the matchup since Zelda does a LOT to mob the iceclimbers, abuse nana's imperfect synchronization and avoid being grabbed... but I can't find a satisfactory commentary about the matchup on the IC's forum... but Zelda definitely counters them.


if you need more I can try to provide... but that's off the top of my head.


Metaknight's another one I had qualms about.... most Zelda mainers who complain about MK are playing a stupid Zelda game... in the match, you have to be really comfortable knowing what moves Zelda can do when and how safely, wheras MK doesn't have such concerns... but, really, if you can keep a cool head and keep stupid mistakes to a minimum... it plays fairly evenly. MK might still have a slight edge... but it's certainly not a 70:30 one... even 60:40 seems a bit harsh... I'll need to do some work on this one though... most matches I've seen involving an MK against Zelda show Zelda making a lot of dumb mistakes. and personally, I'm in that category as well... I'm prone to do stupidly dangerous things with Zelda. But, I mean, when I don't I never feel any sort of glaring disadvantage against MK... just that he's free to make more mistakes than you are.

some other problems I saw:

Ike: if anything, this is Ike's advantage... it's dang close to even, but Zelda does not have a 60:40 advantage here.... same exact opinion of Zelda Vs. peach... and that's the common consesus on our forums I think.

Zero suit samus is slightly disadvataged against Zelda by most accounts

Also... my personal experience says that ROB and Falco are at least as easy as Zelda/Shiek as they are as Zelda... but I can't get a huge amount of backup here because there are virtually no zelda/shiek mains to get a 2nd opinion from.


and finally... there's olimar.... this one's not even close. I know DanGR, an epic Olimar fanboy thinks that olimar ***** Zelda... but virtually no one else agrees with him... if Olimar has the advatage at all it's a slight one... this matchup is DANG close to even and might be a 55:45 advantage in olimar's favour but it is most certainly not even close to being 80:20 Olimar.... and I always thought shiek had the advantage on olimar.... at least mine has never had a problem

 

[Zankoku]

well actually there is a HUGE topic on the ness boards about why it's an even matchup between Ness and Zelda and there's a blurb in Zelda's matchup thread too... but that's one I'm positive about. Zelda is 50:50... or at least roughly 50:50 with ness.

Link?

Ice climbers I honestly don't play against a whole lot but I know some others do... and even IC mains say Zelda is a very tough matchup for them. I say it's probably 70:30 Zelda based on all the evidence and experience I have with the matchup since Zelda does a LOT to mob the iceclimbers, abuse nana's imperfect synchronization and avoid being grabbed... but I can't find a satisfactory commentary about the matchup on the IC's forum... but Zelda definitely counters them.

Okay, I really hate this whole "based on my experience" or "well, I think." Give some solid evidence or a link to the matchup discussion.

Metaknight's another one I had qualms about.... most Zelda mainers who complain about MK are playing a stupid Zelda game... in the match, you have to be really comfortable knowing what moves Zelda can do when and how safely, wheras MK doesn't have such concerns... but, really, if you can keep a cool head and keep stupid mistakes to a minimum... it plays fairly evenly. MK might still have a slight edge... but it's certainly not a 70:30 one... even 60:40 seems a bit harsh... I'll need to do some work on this one though... most matches I've seen involving an MK against Zelda show Zelda making a lot of dumb mistakes. and personally, I'm in that category as well... I'm prone to do stupidly dangerous things with Zelda. But, I mean, when I don't I never feel any sort of glaring disadvantage against MK... just that he's free to make more mistakes than you are.

Let me repeat what I can see from this so we're perfectly clear...
Zelda can make very few mistakes in the matchup, and Meta Knight can make more mistakes than Zelda... and in a matchup between a Zelda who makes very few mistakes and a Meta Knight who makes more, it's even.

...What?

other matchups of just giving numbers and hearsay

You know, usually when I refer to "why" and when you decide to cite sources for your reasoning, it involves providing your sources. You can start by explaining to me how the matchup between Zelda and Meta Knight is even when the Zelda player has to be far more careful and has less room for error than the Meta Knight.

 

[DanGR]

STH- I've given my reasons, I've gone in depth, and I've explained it over and over. We were debating the matchup in the sbr tier list discussion of all place. I'll quote it and we can begin from there.

I'm telling you though, I know everything about the matchup inside and out. I've played over 2,000 matches against Sheik/Zelda. That's not an exaggeration. It's quite literal. I know every approach she's got, every recovery tactic she could possibly use, every combo, every trap, every... everything.

I've never done anything but three stock every zelda in every game I've ever played in friendlies or in tourney. (6 different players in all) Pops' Zelda is the only exception. He uses sheik against my Oli now though. At least we can agree on that matchup, which I think is around even or slightly advantaged sheik maybe.

Olimar is a fast and quick character with a pivot grab longer than lucario's fsmash. Every character that isn't versatile enough in the air to get past this huge obstacle will have a lot of trouble against Olimar.

Zelda is no different. She's slow in the air (floaty, w/e), she doesn't have any rising OR falling aerials that can't be shieldgrabbed very easily, she doesn't have enough aerial speed or manuveuability to keep Olimar guessing, and she doesn't have a brick wall that can hurt Olimar. She just doesn't do well in the air versus a grounded Olimar.

Her ground game lacks vital speed for the matchup. Her run isn't fast enough to keep up with a speedy, grab happy Olimar, her attacks can't interrupt his grabs very well (such as a very fast ftilt like Rob's or a jab like peach's- both disadvantages for Olimar btw), and she doesn't have a very fast grab of her own either. She's just not...fast enough. Like... that's it.

When you look at both their air games against each other's air games, they're pretty even matched. Maybe slightly in Zelda's favor. Would you agree?

Olimar doesn't need to be in the air at all though... Zelda does if she wants to get past Olimar's grab and fsmash spam. For the most part, it's zelda's air game versus Olimar's air defense. imo, Olimar has a huge advantage in this one area. This accounts for most of the matchup.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Link?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=180723

Okay, I really hate this whole "based on my experience" or "well, I think." Give some solid evidence or a link to the matchup discussion.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=190698&page=12

Let me repeat what I can see from this so we're perfectly clear...
Zelda can make very few mistakes in the matchup, and Meta Knight can make more mistakes than Zelda... and in a matchup between a Zelda who makes very few mistakes and a Meta Knight who makes more, it's even.

...What?

umm... not quite but you're kinda getting the point. The point is that in the matchup, if it's not played at the highest levels possible, Zelda has some trouble because she's a lot more puishable... I'm just saying whether MK makes mistakes or not doesn't really mater much because they are hard to punish... Zelda has the burden of not making many mistakes... but, I mean, if Zelda doesn't play a mistake heavy game, then really MK isn't that bad... it may very well still be MK's advantage... but a rating of 70:30 says "hard counter" and MK is not that to Zelda.

You know, usually when I refer to "why" and when you decide to cite sources for your reasoning, it involves providing your sources. You can start by explaining to me how the matchup between Zelda and Meta Knight is even when the Zelda player has to be far more careful and has less room for error than the Meta Knight.

DK vs. MK..... DK has the burden of being at a high level of play otherwise MK can school him because a DK that is anything less than pro gets schooled by MK by being a large, easily punishable target. Zelda is no different... she's just not as effective against MK as DK, so playing her at the same level makes the matchup even rather than her advantage.





@DanGR..... quite simply... you are VERY VERY familiar with playing against Zelda. One man's matchups do not an accurate matchup chart make. The fact that Zelda mains don't find olimar to be such a hard counter and literally the only person I've heard saying so is you means that either you are good at playing vs. Zeldas or that every olimar every other zelda seems to have played are just bad.... which seems more likely?

 

[DanGR]

Ok, let's disregard my experience. It's still heavily favored for Olimar.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Ok, let's disregard my experience. It's still heavily favored for Olimar.

I can even admit it IS olimar's advantage.... but I still don't even think he COUNTERS Zelda.... ask Zelda mains thier hardest matchups and you hear marth and G&W... and, even then, most will only give in to G&W being a hard counter. I'd say you'd be good to get Zelda mains to give Olimar a 60:40 on her... maybe we just haven't played enough good olimars... but, maybe if we did you wouldn't beat us so often... who knows... but, regardless, I personally normally go about even with olimar.

what you say has a ring of truth to it.

Zelda has a lot of troble fighting a pikmin camp because it takes a good Zelda to countersnipe with din's... and a good olimar should recognize a zelda with this skill and be a little more wary with pikimin tossing to compensate.

as for Zelda being unable to approach... I take a bit of offense here but will give up some here. Zelda's are HORRIBLY HORRIBLY underrated in their approaching ability. Chances are, olimar will leave an opening SOMEWHERE. I mean if zelda stands outside his grab range she can maybe bait an approach with din's or can just eat a pikmin toss and dash attack into him... regardless, once Zelda gets olimar above her, she has a HUGE advantage until he can get himelf grounded again... and she can KO him at VERY low damages, so honestly he can't survive this happening too often.

Zelda DOES normally have to approach from the ground to approach effectively... but Zelda does not get stonewalled ont he ground by Olimar... what's he going to do once he throws her? if he follows up, she can change momentum if she connects with anything... I mean you have a good point, she has a hard time initiating contact between the two... but once contact has been initiated, Olimar doesn't completely controlt he flow of battle.

Don't forget it only takes one dash attack or Dsmash from Zelda to send Olimar somewhere he's going to need to tether to recover... and then he's toast.

I'll need to play more good olimars and get back with you with exactly what ratio I seem to think it should be in my experience..... but I definitely don't support 70:30 or above with my current level of experience or data.

 

[DanGR]

I can even admit it IS olimar's advantage.... but I still don't even think he COUNTERS Zelda.... ask Zelda mains thier hardest matchups and you hear marth and G&W... and, even then, most will only give in to G&W being a hard counter. I'd say you'd be good to get Zelda mains to give Olimar a 60:40 on her... maybe we just haven't played enough good olimars... but, maybe if we did you wouldn't beat us so often... who knows... but, regardless, I personally normally go about even with olimar.

well, if it means anything, I played about 10 straight matches with this one dude. I still three stocked him every time though, lol. Anyways...

as for Zelda being unable to approach... I take a bit of offense here but will give up some here. Zelda's are HORRIBLY HORRIBLY underrated in their approaching ability. Chances are, olimar will leave an opening SOMEWHERE.

I don't see how. I see a defense made up of pikmin throwing, grabs, pivotgrabs, spaced fsmashes, and shieldgrabs VERY hard for Zelda to get past. She can't run through it, and she's too floaty to get through it by air.

I mean if zelda stands outside his grab range she can maybe bait an approach with din's or can just eat a pikmin toss and dash attack into him... regardless, once Zelda gets olimar above her, she has a HUGE advantage until he can get himelf grounded again... and she can KO him at VERY low damages, so honestly he can't survive this happening too often.

You shouldn't be able to bait anything. What do you have to bait with? An fsmash? Grabs and fsmashes from Olimar will outrange everything Zelda has. There's no reason to go past that.

You're right about getting Olimar in the air. If he were to jump high into the air and battle Zelda that way, it would be quite difficult.

Zelda DOES normally have to approach from the ground to approach effectively... but Zelda does not get stonewalled ont he ground by Olimar...

He does, and this is very important.

what's he going to do once he throws her?

He's got multiple safe options of racking damage through his throws. Dthrow>fair is a true combo at low percents. It chains well into fsmashes and other grabs. If you DI up, it's rather easy to connect with an upsmash because your dair is hard to connect with. After an upsmash, you'll get a barrage of upairs, upbs, and multiple other upsmashes to keep the juggle traps going.

if he follows up, she can change momentum if she connects with anything... I mean you have a good point, she has a hard time initiating contact between the two... but once contact has been initiated, Olimar doesn't completely controlt he flow of battle.

You bring up a good point. Many strings/combos that Olimar can do are completely safe against retaliation from Zelda. Dthrow>fair>fsmash/grab being a prime example. After a simple three attack string dealing around 35%, Olimar can just go back to camping and forcing quick approaches from Zelda. A purple upsmash kills at around 80% usually- and they're not hard to land at all, considering how frail Zelda is from above Olimar.

I'll need to play more good olimars and get back with you with exactly what ratio I seem to think it should be in my experience..... but I definitely don't support 70:30 or above with my current level of experience or data.

If you're not playing good enough Olimars, then...idk. I guess you wouldn't understand. I'd still rate the matchup at around 75:25 or 80:20 Olimar.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I don't see how. I see a defense made up of pikmin throwing, grabs, pivotgrabs, spaced fsmashes, and shieldgrabs VERY hard for Zelda to get past. She can't run through it, and she's too floaty to get through it by air.

so it's difficult... iut's not impossible.... all it takes is one chink in olimar's armour and Zelda can really capitalize.

You shouldn't be able to bait anything. What do you have to bait with? An fsmash? Grabs and fsmashes from Olimar will outrange everything Zelda has. There's no reason to go past that.

oh... so you'll let zelda start attacking you with Din's?

He does, and this is very important.

he most certainly does not.... you said the exact same thing about sonic and you were the ONLY person doing so... the entirety of the olimar AND the Sonic boards had to rise against you and say how stubborn you were being.

You bring up a good point. Many strings/combos that Olimar can do are completely safe against retaliation from Zelda. Dthrow>fair>fsmash/grab being a prime example. After a simple three attack string dealing around 35%, Olimar can just go back to camping and forcing quick approaches from Zelda.

Olimar is a good camper but he's NOT going to just sit there all day or he'll start eating dins.

A purple upsmash kills at around 80% usually- and they're not hard to land at all, considering how frail Zelda is from above Olimar.

name me one zelda stupid enough to try to dair a standing olimar.

If you're not playing good enough Olimars, then...idk. I guess you wouldn't understand. I'd still rate the matchup at around 75:25 or 80:20 Olimar.

LMFAO... you know you are suggesting that olimar is as good against Zelda as Metaknight is against captain falcon... why is it that no one else seems to have caught on to Olimar being such a great counter? simple... he isn't.


All it takes is one opening... that's it.... with one opening, zelda can pop olimar up in the air and then initiate a barage of attacks to rack up damage.... and all it takes is ONE downsmash or ONE late hit from her dash attack to send olimar out to where he NEEDS to tether to recover... and he can be gimped... and, guess what... both of those attacks are blazingly fast. and will send him a good deal away at moderate damages.

Olimar does NOT counter zelda... he might not be even for her.... but he is NOT even close to 80:20

 

[Zankoku]

umm... not quite but you're kinda getting the point. The point is that in the matchup, if it's not played at the highest levels possible, Zelda has some trouble because she's a lot more puishable... I'm just saying whether MK makes mistakes or not doesn't really mater much because they are hard to punish... Zelda has the burden of not making many mistakes... but, I mean, if Zelda doesn't play a mistake heavy game, then really MK isn't that bad... it may very well still be MK's advantage... but a rating of 70:30 says "hard counter" and MK is not that to Zelda.

If 70:30 says "hard counter" then I shudder to think of what anything above that means.

DK vs. MK..... DK has the burden of being at a high level of play otherwise MK can school him because a DK that is anything less than pro gets schooled by MK by being a large, easily punishable target. Zelda is no different... she's just not as effective against MK as DK, so playing her at the same level makes the matchup even rather than her advantage.

So a DK has to be more highly skilled than the Meta Knight in order to win? How does that make it even at all? Do you even know what "difficult matchup" means? It means it's unfavorable. Saying "you can win this if you don't mess up ever" is not an even matchup.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

If 70:30 says "hard counter" then I shudder to think of what anything above that means.

it means they'll win 70% of the time... which is enough to be considered a hard counter

]So a DK has to be more highly skilled than the Meta Knight in order to win? How does that make it even at all? Do you even know what "difficult matchup" means? It means it's unfavorable. Saying "you can win this if you don't mess up ever" is not an even matchup.

no no no you misread me friend. The DK has to be good... really good... he can't make many mistakes.... MK can or can not... it doesn't matter... mistakes don't hurt MK near as bad as they do DK is the point... same applies to Zelda.

 

[Zankoku]

In other words it is not an even matchup any way you look at it because the Meta Knight does not have to be more skilled/make fewer mistakes to win.

You can't even properly reason how DK takes advantage of the matchup, when other than Snake it's one of the easiest ones to explain. Go back to the Zelda boards and tell them to send somebody else.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Go back to the Zelda boards and tell them to send somebody else.

True words spoken from someone who actually knows what he's talking about.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

In other words it is not an even matchup any way you look at it because the Meta Knight does not have to be more skilled/make fewer mistakes to win.

You can't even properly reason how DK takes advantage of the matchup, when other than Snake it's one of the easiest ones to explain. Go back to the Zelda boards and tell them to send somebody else.

*sigh* si it worth trying to go on? I thought matchups assumed equal skill... I'm saying at a high level of equal skill they play near equal... but at anything less than that, that is not the case... and it's the same way for donkey kong... and I said nothing more about the matchup besides that so I don't knwo how you are getting that I don't know why DK wins.... and I think you'll find most Zelda mains just don't care enough to come in here.

 

[Zankoku]

Assuming equal skill, Meta Knight has a higher margin of error to work with. Still not an even matchup.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Assuming equal skill, Meta Knight has a higher margin of error to work with. Still not an even matchup.

maybe this is true... but the disadvantage is not as large as your thread suggests... at least not to my knowledge/experience... bah... we'll have a matchup in our thread for MK decided by the end of the week... since it's zelda biased it'll probably end up being 50:50 or 55:45 even though 60:40 might be true.

 

[PKNintendo]

Sweet topic Ankoku.

 

[DanGR]

so it's difficult... iut's not impossible.... all it takes is one chink in olimar's armour and Zelda can really capitalize.

you can say the same thing about a lot of onesided matchups. If jiggs sends Olimar offstage, she's got good enough edgeguarding to kill him easily. How's she supposed do that though? That's what I want to discuss.

oh... so you'll let zelda start attacking you with Din's?

no? I've got a superior projectile.

he most certainly does not.... you said the exact same thing about sonic and you were the ONLY person doing so... the entirety of the olimar AND the Sonic boards had to rise against you and say how stubborn you were being.

Ok, I was wrong. And that was like two months ago. This is now.

Olimar is a good camper but he's NOT going to just sit there all day or he'll start eating dins.

Dude, pikmin throw>Din's. It's that simple.

name me one zelda stupid enough to try to dair a standing olimar.

That's my point. Most characters have dairs that beat out Olimar's upsmash. Zelda doesn't.

 

[GodAtHand]

I come in peace from the Zelda boards...

MK Zelda discussion eh?

I say 60:40 MK wins

Reason = Zelda is punished easily but she can kill him at fairly low percentages if she is careful and exact, and a lot of her moves last longer than his spot dodge which leads him to get hit by them anyways. I am pretty sure from my experience that if a MK trys to spot dodge a Fsmash or Zelda's grab if times correctly he will still get hit or grabbed... And Zelda's grab for some reason seems to beat out his dash attack in terms of priority...

just my two cents. This is just from my experience I could be completely wrong and take no liability for the craziness that might ensue.

 

[Zankoku]

That's a reasonable explanation.

Just a note, though - grabs do not figure into priority.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

you can say the same thing about a lot of onesided matchups. If jiggs sends Olimar offstage, she's got good enough edgeguarding to kill him easily. How's she supposed do that though? That's what I want to discuss.

however, jiggly has a much harder time knocking olimar off the edge than Zelda.... AND dies a lot easier

no? I've got a superior projectile.

ORLY? I mean it IS better.... but get hit with dins and what happens? you get popped up into the air... what the hell does pikmin toss do to protect you from this?

Ok, I was wrong. And that was like two months ago. This is now.

but it's the same exact situation... I don't think you could find ANYONE else who agrees with you that Olimar has an 80:20 advantage on Zelda.

Dude, pikmin throw>Din's. It's that simple.

once again.... try to counter din's with pikmin throw... see what happens.

That's my point. Most characters have dairs that beat out Olimar's upsmash. Zelda doesn't.

then she'll short hop dins into olimar... if he shields she blast she can grab or dsmash before he can really do anything... if he grabs or attacks then he'll be hit by din's and popped up

 

[demodemo]

Ahkjlahashfah;s reading all of these ellipsis's are making my eyes bleed HWAUARhg

 

[DanGR]

however, jiggly has a much harder time knocking olimar off the edge than Zelda.... AND dies a lot easier

Umm, no. Jiggs may die earlier, but not by much. They're both very easy kills off the top lower than 90%. I want you to explain how Zelda will even get close to Olimar. Jiggs can at least use empty short hops and her DI to get remotely near Olimar. Zelda has NOTHING.

ORLY? I mean it IS better.... but get hit with dins and what happens? you get popped up into the air... what the hell does pikmin toss do to protect you from this?

Ok, let me say this again.

I won't get hit by din's, and I'll throw pikmin at you. Pikmin throw has low enough afterlag for a pikmin to be thrown and then for Olimar to shield, spotdodge, or airdodge din's. If you're close enough, I could even throw a pikmin and then nair din's.

So basically, I won't get hit, you will, and you have to approach. You can't bait anything. You can't use din's anywhere to benifit Zelda anywhere. The only time you should use it would be if I'm recovering. And even then, it's almost completely avoidable.

but it's the same exact situation... I don't think you could find ANYONE else who agrees with you that Olimar has an 80:20 advantage on Zelda.

Does it matter? I've proven my point. You're just saying random stuff like this that doesn't have a point. I still want you to give me just one approach Zelda can use.

once again.... try to counter din's with pikmin throw... see what happens.

Ummm, I do it all the time. My opponents forget about din's because of how useless and unefficient it is.

then she'll short hop dins into olimar... if he shields she blast she can grab or dsmash before he can really do anything... if he grabs or attacks then he'll be hit by din's and popped up

Again, you can't use din's.

If you're just going to rant about how great din's is in this matchup, I can't debate this with you. There's no point.

Edit: I've even written a guide on how to outcamp it. Skip to Zelda and read it: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=191638

 

[popsofctown]

Don't forget it only takes one dash attack or Dsmash from Zelda to send Olimar somewhere he's going to need to tether to recover... and then he's toast.

Yay, STH's signature. Factual inaccuracies. At high percents, Zelda's dash attack sends enemies straight up/close to straight up esp. with correct DI . Olimar doesn't need to tether at all.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Yay, STH's signature. Factual inaccuracies. At high percents, Zelda's dash attack sends enemies straight up/close to straight up esp. with correct DI . Olimar doesn't need to tether at all.

dash attack has two hitboxes.. the early one sends them straight up, the late one hits them forwards.


@DanGR... you are a fool if you think you will avoid din's 100% of the time... a good zelda knows WHEN to use this move so that you'll either take it or leave yourself open to something worse... and Zelda CAN get in on olimar... she has enough air control to short hop at olimar and, if he tries to grab or attack to airdodge and land behind him... then NL can create an opening since it'll hit behind her before olimar could pull anything out behind himself.

I'm not saying that Zelda doesn't have trouble getting in on olmar... I'm saying he's not some impenetrable fortress, zelda WILL get in. Olimar WILL have an opening and Zelda CAN take advantage of any opening to cause olimar a lot of pain. do you have any idea just how bad an 80:20 matchup is?

 

[x After Dawn x]

That's my point. Most characters have dairs that beat out Olimar's upsmash. Zelda doesn't.

Too bad every character has a usable air dodge, including Zelda.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Too bad every character has a usable air dodge, including Zelda.

QFT

and while Olimar's Usmash doesn;t have a GREAT deal of cooldown... Zelda has a few attacks that WILL come out fast enough to hit olimar before he can do anything

 

[Zankoku]

dash attack has two hitboxes.. the early one sends them straight up, the late one hits them forwards.

If you're hitting anybody with a late dash attack as Zelda then your opponents must be asleep. Try waking them up by dash attacking them in real life.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

If you're hitting anybody with a late dash attack as Zelda then your opponents must be asleep. Try waking them up by dash attacking them in real life.

Somehow I don't think physical assault is okay otherwise cups WOULD be worn at tourneys

well you probably would be aiming for the initial hitbox and they spotdodge to early or misjudge your reach... or they are in the air... you certainly wouldn't PLAN on the late hit most of the time... but it CAN connect.... and I'm pretty sure if zelda starts dash attack after an olimar Fsmash she'll connect with the late hit... but I need to test that.

 

[Zankoku]

Whenever I play against Zelda (and, I expect, anyone who's familiar with the Zelda matchup), I try to spotdodge as little as possible. Given most of her attacks are punishable from shield but last long enough to hit after a spotdodge, I think that spotdodging is more or less asking to die.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Whenever I play against Zelda (and, I expect, anyone who's familiar with the Zelda matchup), I try to spotdodge as little as possible. Given most of her attacks are punishable from shield but last long enough to hit after a spotdodge, I think that spotdodging is more or less asking to die.

hrmm... well yeah... I mean your exagerating a little bit but you have a valid point... though Zelda's multi hit attacks also shield poke but yeah... just because it's a bad idea doesn't mean that someone won't do it... Zelda's not someone a lot of people are used to playing against

 

[Zankoku]

Making silly assumptions like that is what causes inaccurate matchup numbers and explanations. When I decide on the matchups for Sheik, I assume the opponent knows everything Sheik can do, and the Sheik knows everything the opponent's character can do.

Because a Meta Knight who's unaware of Sheik's ftiltlock and plays stupidly can be wrecked very easily, but that's not relevant to an overall matchup.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Isn't that a given?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Making silly assumptions like that is what causes inaccurate matchup numbers and explanations. When I decide on the matchups for Sheik, I assume the opponent knows everything Sheik can do, and the Sheik knows everything the opponent's character can do.

Because a Meta Knight who's unaware of Sheik's ftiltlock and plays stupidly can be wrecked very easily, but that's not relevant to an overall matchup.

evn so... it's not ALWAYS a bad idea to spotdodge zelda... you can't assume the foe will ALWAYS correctly forecast when a dodge is correct and when a shield is

 

[Zankoku]

Isn't that a given?

Not for a lot of the people who give their opinions on matchups, unfortunately.

Yoshi's still supposedly "even" with Meta Knight because they expect they'll be able to take him to FD and grab release combo him all day.

 

[popsofctown]

^^^Aye, the fallacy is actually more common than that. Snake vs. MK was long thought to be Snake advantage, partly due to MK's unable to adjust to the air boxes on Snake's tilts and grenade>tornado.

 

[DanGR]

STH- I know what an 80:20 matchup entails. I don't see a point in arguing with you anymore though. It's clear that you haven't faced a competent Olimar with matchup experience versus Zelda.

Ankoku, go ahead and change it back to even or w/e. I don't really care anymore.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

STH- I know what an 80:20 matchup entails. I don't see a point in arguing with you anymore though. It's clear that you haven't faced a competent Olimar with matchup experience versus Zelda.

Ankoku, go ahead and change it back to even or w/e. I don't really care anymore.

It's clear that you're being an olimar fanboy.... no other person would claim 80:20 <_< but I digress... olimar is NOT the best matchup for Zelda... I would NOT call it even... give olimar an edge... but no more than 60:40

 

[Squidster]

Sonic have you actually played a good olimar? They are so much harder to approach than you make it seem... SH -> Dins -> Grab (or something) doesn't work...

You haven't really listed another approach... You mentioned her areals but any olimar that gets hit by lightning kick while he's just sitting there fails at life. Dair is not an approach and Nair is far from a reliable approach vs him.

Her entire ground game is outraged.

So she can camp... and you're right... you may hit SOME dins fire... but olimar definitly has the edge here. You're not going to hit half your fireballs vs a competant olimar... which leaves you behind because he's pelting pikming while your throwing fireballs...

No approach + can't camp = bad matchup

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

yes... olimar will probably dominate the matchup if you let him set the pace of the battle... Zelda CAN get in on olimar... it's hard for me to provide a "reliable" approach because, in this matchup, Zelda simply won't have one she can constantly fall back on... any approach she makes is going to have to be situational and is probably risky.... so she's NOT going to want to have to approach for most of the match... but once she engages olimar even once, assuming she can keep up any amount of pressure, she can put him in KO range in only a few altercations... and, maybe he can do the same to her... but his Usmash is quite punishable so if he uses it on an airborne Zelda... she may well airdodge through it and punish olimar.

I'm not saying the matchup is even... but Olimar does not bend Zelda over the ledge and **** her... he is frustrating.. but not unmanageable. Really.. everything you are saying looks great on paper... but in reality Olimar does not accurately predict everything Zelda does... she DOES get inside of him from time to time and, she is quite capable of molesting or edgeguarding him once she gets him airborne.

 

[Squidster]

By your logic there is no such thing as a 80-20 matchup.

Ike doesn't have a TERRIBLE matchup vs sheik cause even though he has to approach due to needles and can only approach with N-> Jab which isn't reliable, no sheik is perfect so he will therefore SOMETIMES hit her, no?

On paper (which, strangely enough, is what a matchup thread is) ike gets ***** by sheik.
On paper, olimar ***** Zelda.

Can you win a 80-20 matchup? Sure. Is it an uphill battle? Thats kind of all that matters.