Zelda+Sheik Matchup Listing

[ADHD]

after playing lots of MK, ROB, and G&W, i don't think sheik has that bad of a disadvantage against them. in fact i think sheik is within 40-60 to 50-50 on almost all of her match ups except for IC :/

Rob ain't so bad really, its like 40-60 IMO

 

[Zankoku]

Is that 40-60 using Transform, or 40-60 solo?

 

[imdavid]

ROB can't airdodge out of his up-b, once he starts up those rockets he can't airdodge so you can harass him with needles, aerials, vanish all you want. and as far as harassment goes, sheik is really good at it ^^ play aggressive and you can do major damage :] he'll run out of fuel with a surprised look on his face and you'll get the satisfying grin :] also... i've never seen any other character get so much damage from ftilt combos, its amazing, and your utilt does pretty well underneath rob since he's pretty vulnerable there

i'll say 40-60 solo 50-50 with transform, but that's only my opinion

 

[ADHD]

Is that 40-60 using Transform, or 40-60 solo?

Transform, solo should be like 30-70, hes not easy to KO without zelda.

 

[demodemo]

Can somebody give me some tips on ZSS?

I am having trouble countering her jab and dash attack. that laser is not helping things either

my needles do wonder against her, but i don't know how to fight her with zelda, which is bad, since i use zelda to KO.

zss's jab is fast and so is her dash attack. they all come out and finish very quickly, so i can't punish. zss can space well with the side b and react fast enough in the air. she has no trouble killing with that down b, aka "the forever kick".

I still beat my friend, but the matches come uncomfortably close, and i often win because of a mistake from my friend or something

 

[Zankoku]

It's a horribly even matchup that doesn't get much better with transform. All you can really do is try to come in from an angle because ZSS isn't so good at covering that area, and pressuring her shield because ZSS doesn't have a lot of good responses out of her shield.

 

[stealthsushi]

I'm loving the new matchup thread as there are a healthy mix of Sheik only, Sheik/Zelda, and people who can play both but want to play with the more advantageous character on the Sheik boards. I've always been curious to see which matchups Zelda dominates, and now I have a rough idea Thanks for adding my weekly character discussion to the thread also Ankoku; hopefully I'll get some more posts for ROB up before I move onto the next character.

For the Sheik only matchup vs. Fox, how come its 50-50? I was thinking it'd be 60-40 in Sheik's favor given her ability to F-Tilt lock and the opportunity to gimp Fox off-stage. I know that Fox's U-Smash and U-Air are good finishers and his D-Air is a great set-up, but Fox can be easily comboed by Sheik. If not 60-40, I'd think it'd be at least 55-45.

Also, is Sheik's matchup vs. ROB 20-80? That seems a bit skewed since Sheik's chances are just about as slim as Sheik vs. IC (which I feel hits the spot pretty well, **** ICs). What makes this matchup so unfavorable? If combos are kept short and sweet vs. ROB, and you keep him in the air and utilize the U-Tilt, the match-up should be less unfavorable-- maybe on the lines of 30-70/35-65. The only problem with using Sheik-only would be getting the KO and dealing with ROB's long-range projectiles. If Sheik can have a less unfavorable match-up vs. ROB, then the Sheik/Zelda should be closer to 35-65/40-60 with Zelda's KO ability.

 

[Zankoku]

Alright, the three of you have convinced me about ROB. Also gave a slight bump to Fox.

 

[imdavid]

good to see sheik is about even in her favorable and unfavorable, although personally i have a harder time with peaches than g&w, always have since melee

any advice on how to take her down?

 

[Zankoku]

Go Zelda.

Otherwise, it's like a different flavor of G&W.

 

[imdavid]

i was afraid you'd say that... rawr better just find a counter pick

edit: i thought marth was 50-50 with just sheik, why does he have the advantage of 10 points on us o_O even the marth boards think its 50-50 last time i checked, better check again

edit edit: lawls nevermind they have us listed for 60-40 their favor XD yah i guess so... we just don't have the KO power like we did in melee

 

[popsofctown]

We do too, it just requires a dress...

 

[_X_]

Not to start any arguments */impossibility*, but I think Fox has a way better match up vs. Zelda than Sheik due to D-air combos on Zelda and Sheik's stupid 0 - over 9000% f-tilt thing.

I've had a few good matches (tournament matches) against Zelda btw.

 

[popsofctown]

That's in sharp contrast with the (foolish) person who came into one of my Zelda threads and said Zelda is Fox's worst fight.


I would consider myself a decent authority on vs. Fox, because Moogle lives across town, and he's gotta be one of the best Foxes in the world (He's second or third best Brawl player in Alabama, and he mains Fox, i figure my logic is pretty good.)
My Sheik does much better, and if i had to put one alone it would be Sheik. I use Zelda for the kill but she has lots of trouble, and i'm really not sure if i should include Zelda at all. In theory, a character with an incredible upsmash would beat a character based off of dair approaches. In practice.... no, it just doesn't work like that.

 

[imdavid]

I need to find some good fox's to play against

 

[Tristan_win]

That's in sharp contrast with the (foolish) person who came into one of my Zelda threads and said Zelda is Fox's worst fight.


I would consider myself a decent authority on vs. Fox, because Moogle lives across town, and he's gotta be one of the best Foxes in the world (He's second or third best Brawl player in Alabama, and he mains Fox, i figure my logic is pretty good.)
My Sheik does much better, and if i had to put one alone it would be Sheik. I use Zelda for the kill but she has lots of trouble, and i'm really not sure if i should include Zelda at all. In theory, a character with an incredible upsmash would beat a character based off of dair approaches. In practice.... no, it just doesn't work like that.

QFT

None ******** defensive Foxes are darn near impossible for Zelda to approach especially with her lack of ability to do just that.

Din fire doesn't work to make them approach, teleport doesn't work since it can be shield grabbed, fair, bair, even the nair isn’t effective enough for approaching fox, and with Foxes natural speed in running speed, falling speed and not to mention the side B it's very hard even with platforms to approach.

If anyone says “just use Zelda reflector” then they clearly don't understand how fast fox is or how much lag the neutral B actually has. Also Fox range does poor damage and if you change to Zelda for the kill Foxes aren't worried about 5% extra damage.

 

[Nestec]

Sheik mainers!

In an effort to help DanGR with his match-up project, I want to submit the Ness forum's discussion on Vs. Sheik. We debated with Sheik mainers and agreed on a 60-40 advantage for Sheik. I see you all say 70-30 for Sheik, but either way, it's a slight advantage on DanGR's chart.

Here is the discussion thread. Sound good? Should I submit?

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=183562

 

[choknater]

Lol? That thread is a nice effort, but it'll take years before it's anywhere near accurate.

Might as well put a big blue star on Sheik vs Wolf, and Sheik vs Fox. Ouch.

 

[Smashbros_7]

Ness (80-20) (40-60) (70-30)

Why is Ness at 80/20 for Zelda/Shiek, when he's at 40/60 vs Zelda and 70/30 with Shiek? It
should be 7-3 total at the very least.

 

[PK Webb]

Sorry i might be off topic here but why is ice climbers so feared? I've never faced a ice climber main so i don't know the pain of which everyone feels. what makes them so difficult?

 

[Zankoku]

Because you'll be using Sheik primarily if you use both, and the advantage can only go up when you're going Zelda for the KO hit.

Don't get grabbed by ICs. This may be a little difficult for Sheik. Also, grabbing ICs doesn't work most of the time.

 

[Goodstyle]

7-3 for Shiek against Wario... **** that grab release. Without it, what say you to the matchup? I say it's 5-5.

 

[demodemo]

even putting that aside, iceclimbers' ice blocks block needles and you need to ftilt both of them for lock or else the other one will ruin it

 

[Smashbros_7]

Because you'll be using Sheik primarily if you use both, and the advantage can only go up when you're going Zelda for the KO hit.

Don't get grabbed by ICs. This may be a little difficult for Sheik. Also, grabbing ICs doesn't work most of the time.

If Ness is at an 8-2 overall, why is Link and Wario who are 7-3 for both Zelda AND Sheik, 7-3?

Ness vs Zelda. 6-4 for Ness. Vs Shiek, 7-3 for Sheik. For both, 8-2??? It should be 7-3

Link vs Zelda: 7-3 for Zelda. Vs Shiek. 7-3 for Sheik. For both. 7-3

Wario vs Zelda: 7-3 for Zelsa. vs Shiek. 7-3 for Sheik. For both 7-3.

I sense bias.

 

[Zankoku]

Good point. They'll be 8-2 for both, then.

GG

I love how you're calling me biased when
A. I have nothing against Ness at all
B. I play against a Ness main

Meanwhile, what do you do? Pester me in EVERY thread about how I apparently have something against Ness, leave remarks about Sheik being a terrible character in the Sheik character boards, and once again talk about how I apparently have something against Ness.

 

[KRDsonic]

Sorry i might be off topic here but why is ice climbers so feared? I've never faced a ice climber main so i don't know the pain of which everyone feels. what makes them so difficult?

Well, sheik can't really approach Ice Climbers, their Ice Blocks cancel out your needles, Blizzard can stop any approach you try, or they can shield grab, and since sheik is the easiest character to chain grab with Ice Climbers, chances are you'll loose that life as soon as you get grabbed.

 

[Smashbros_7]

Captain Falcon (90-10) (70-30) (80-20)
Ganondorf (80-20) (70-30) (90-10)
Link (80-20) (70-30) (70-30)
Wario (80-20) (70-30) (70-30)
Ness (75-25) (40-60) (70-30)
Ike (70-30) (55-45) (80-20)
Toon Link (75-25) (70-30) (70-30)
King Dedede (80-20) (70-30) (60-40)
Yoshi (70-30) (70-30) (65-35)
Lucas (70-30) (40-60) (60-40)
Squirtle (70-30) (50-50) (65-35)

Sorry to bother you again but...

Ike and TL should be both at 8-2 not 7-3. hehe.

 

[Zankoku]

Wow, you've got no knowledge of Sheik at all and you're trying to lecture me on numbers with no reasoning other than "well the other ones are that way."

Whether you transform or not against Toon Link will only help a little bit, and you're better off staying Sheik only for the Ike matchup since Sheik can gimp his recovery more effectively than Zelda can land a killing hit.

 

[Charoo]

i feel bad using sheik vs ike

i just go falcon instead and even then I still feel bad

 

[PKNintendo]

Thanks for this topic. Now I know what do when I encounter Sheik in a tourny. Counterpick.

(Grab release forward tilt sucks)

 

[ADHD]

Thanks for this topic. Now I know what do when I encounter Sheik in a tourny. Counterpick.

(Grab release forward tilt sucks)

Why counterpick, sheik vs ness isn't that bad for ness... you can still win

 

[Nestec]

So, Sheik-boarders, we're agreeing on 70-30, right??

Now whether or not this is a Large Advantage for Sheik or a Slight Advantage for Sheik will depend on whether or not DanGR adjusts the system, which he's thinking on right now.

 

[ADHD]

So, Sheik-boarders, we're agreeing on 70-30, right??

Now whether or not this is a Large Advantage for Sheik or a Slight Advantage for Sheik will depend on whether or not DanGR adjusts the system, which he's thinking on right now.

Maybe I missed the debating but I think it should be 60-40?? Can someone explain why 70-30

 

[Nestec]

Tilt-lock grants an immediate upperhand for one thing. I don't think Ness has much of an advantage to make up for it.

I don't see either of the two being gimped/easily edgeguarded.

I'm not too sure on the priority comparisons, but both have quick aerials, and decent airgame. I'd say they're even here.

Where Sheik loses out is her lack of effective kill moves, I think. I don't know how often or easily tilt-lock to Usmash is gonna kill Ness. But because of Sheik's damage-racking advantage, this flaw isn't very prominent...

 

[choknater]

sheik demolishes ness ouch

 

[popsofctown]

I don't think it's that easy. PK fire really hurts needle camping and some horizontal approaches, and Sheik can have a lot of trouble with SH fair walls. At least, i do.

 

[popsofctown]

QFT

None ******** defensive Foxes are darn near impossible for Zelda to approach especially with her lack of ability to do just that.

Din fire doesn't work to make them approach, teleport doesn't work since it can be shield grabbed, fair, bair, even the nair isn’t effective enough for approaching fox, and with Foxes natural speed in running speed, falling speed and not to mention the side B it's very hard even with platforms to approach.

If anyone says “just use Zelda reflector” then they clearly don't understand how fast fox is or how much lag the neutral B actually has. Also Fox range does poor damage and if you change to Zelda for the kill Foxes aren't worried about 5% extra damage.

What's QFT stand for? I never found out what that one means, i thought it means shut up, but you quoted me, said QFT and then agreed with me.

 

[Zankoku]

Quoted For Truth.

 

[ADHD]

Offensive nesses can be nasty, I dont know whether to play defensive or offensive. Because I know ness is bad when it comes to a reckless sheik, but its hard to go aggressive on another aggressive player.

 

[PKNintendo]

Offensive nesses can be nasty, I dont know whether to play defensive or offensive. Because I know ness is bad when it comes to a reckless sheik, but its hard to go aggressive on another aggressive player.

For me it's the opposite. An offensive Sheik is a nasty experience. Ness needs to stick to the skies when facing, because when Ness is grounded, her Ftilt lock can be a nasty thing to behold. Forward tilt>Upsmash does not work.

I play defensively with my aerials alot, and thats my only positive, PK jump to approach, and PKT from a decent distance. A positive to this matchup is Sheik being light, backthrow kills eaaarly. (Sheik is lighter than Ness, lol) And Sheik difficulty at killing, but other than that, matchup is stacked... 7-3 for sure against Sheik.