~ Zelda Q & A / FAQs / Directory ~

[Silent_Rain]

Alright so I have a question. I'm not all too knowledgeable about the properties game, in particular frame data. I recognize that you are able to attack out of shield and shield grab. There was this one incident while I was playing on wi-fi that my opponent grabbed me in the middle of Zelda's up-smash. My opponent was within Zelda's up-smash range and before that attack could even finish eating up his shield, he just grabbed me out of shield while in the middle of the attack. Is there some frame or split second where you are able to do that? Sorry if this is already known to everyone already. -_-

 

[KayLo!]

Happens all the time. There's a 6-frame break in the middle of usmash where there's no hitbox, which, combined with grab armor, is long enough for most characters to grab you out of shield if they're in range.

I swear I've had people grab me out of it earlier, which might be purely because of grab armor...... but I dunno the specifics of super armor on grabs, so. *shrug*

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Grabs don't actually have any kind of armor, despite that term being used much. What really happens is that a normal attack trades hits with a grab and both characters take the knockback and damage from other one's attak. However, since grabs don't cause any damage and stop movement from both characters you get a situation where the grabber takes damage without knockback and grabs the opponent.

Grab can be activated instantly from a shield, so if a move has frame gab equal or greater to the time it takes for the grab hitbox to come out you can get grabbed out of it.

 

[KayLo!]

Well, you can still consider that "armor" -- basically, a situation where you take damage but no knockback. =P

 

[Half-Split Soul]

That's why the term was born in the first place. The reason why some people would prefer a different name is that when you get to the bottom of it there still isn't really armor at all, only a completely regular attack trade. If any third attack would hit both the grabber and the one getting grabbed they'd both still take the adequate knockback and damage. In competitive one on one matches this is important only when facing someone like Diddy, so that you don't to try to rely on the grab armor when he's standing on a banana or something.

I personally don't really care about the name as long as it's clear what the discussion's about.

 

[KayLo!]

I was just being a smart ***...... ;;

 

[Bandit]

That's why the term was born in the first place. The reason why some people would prefer a different name is that when you get to the bottom of it there still isn't really armor at all, only a completely regular attack trade. If any third attack would hit both the grabber and the one getting grabbed they'd both still take the adequate knockback and damage. In competitive one on one matches this is important only when facing someone like Diddy, so that you don't to try to rely on the grab armor when he's standing on a banana or something.

I personally don't really care about the name as long as it's clear what the discussion's about.

You realize everyone in the smash community refers to it as grab armor? Making some arbitrary argument as to why this is a misnamed property is simply, as stated, arbitrary.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Read the last sentence again. I'm not saying it should have a different name because I don't care. That is how some people have justified the name change so I posted it as a nice trivia.

 

[Bandit]

Actually, you were correcting KayLo for using the term. Therefore, you do care.

off-topic discussion/

 

[Half-Split Soul]

My intention never was to correct her. What I strived for was to explain how grab armor works and the easiest way to do that was to first define the term.

But now I'm correcting you: slash belongs before, not after, the word(s), like this:

/useless trivia

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

You realize everyone in the smash community refers to it as grab armor? Making some arbitrary argument as to why this is a misnamed property is simply, as stated, arbitrary.

Actually, you were correcting KayLo for using the term. Therefore, you do care.

off-topic discussion/

do you always jump on someone for saying something to kaylo?

 

[KayLo!]

AL, he has you on ignore.

Also, stop trying to start more pointless arguments.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

AL, he has you on ignore.

Also, stop trying to start more pointless arguments.

Not trying to start an argument it just seems that whenever someone says anything too you bandit will show up with out fail.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Not trying to start an argument it just seems that whenever someone says anything too you bandit will show up with out fail.

Looked in the mirror lately?

Pot kettle black etc.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

so i got a question can Zeldas Dair cancel dins from inside, or is it just on the edges of it?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

so i got a question can Zeldas Dair cancel dins from inside, or is it just on the edges of it?

I don't even understand that question.

 

[MrEh]

so i got a question can Zeldas Dair cancel dins from inside, or is it just on the edges of it?

I always thought that Din's had the same amount of priority all around it.

It Dair cancels Din's from the outside, then it should stop it not matter where you hit it. Assuming good timing anyway.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

then maybe its my timing thats off on it

 

[Bandit]

It also may be an issue of the sweet spot timing beating it and the sour spot not. I have never used dair to cancel dins though. I probably won't be able to test it until this weekend, but it's something worth looking into.

If the dair always beats it, regardless of sweetspot, the hitbox stays out for 10 frames and would be a pretty decent anti dins move.

 

[zeldspazz]

I has question ya?

So can someone explain to me by definition what exactly these terms are:

-Zoning
-KB Growth
-Difference between B-reversal and Wavebouncing
-Buffering

I have a vague idea of each but Im not concrete on them
Thanks in advance guys <3

 

[mountain_tiger]

I has question ya?

So can someone explain to me by definition what exactly these terms are:

-Zoning
-KB Growth
-Difference between B-reversal and Wavebouncing
-Buffering

I have a vague idea of each but Im not concrete on them
Thanks in advance guys <3

KB Growth stands for 'Knockback Growth', which is the rate at which knockback increases as damage increases. KB growth of 30 is considered decent, 40 is considered very good, and 50 is amazing (lightning kick levels).

Buffering is where the game 'remembers' the inputs you make for ten frames. To put it in practical terms, suppose that you are in cooldown from an attack. If you input a command within ten frames of the cooldown ending, once the cooldown is over the action you inputted will begin the instant you are in your neutral position.

As for the other two, I'm not sure myself...

 

[Kataefi]

Yeah knockback growth basically determines the amount of knockback a move has at varying percentages as far as I'm aware - but some moves are different. E.g... if you LK someon at 0% they go flying about the same distance as, for example, when Peach's Fair hits them at 0%. Fastforward to 70% and you'll see LKs start killing whereas Peach's Fairs will not - this means the LKs have a considerably larger knockback growth. Though whether or not this means they stale more greatly is something to look into.

Buffering is simply a window of opportunity as a move winds down to chain into another move. There's a variety of moves that can be buffered... the most useful tend to buffer into Dtilts... SH NAir > Dtilt, Dair > Dtilt, Fair > Dtilt etc... and then of course you can buffer out of Fsmash and Jabs to do quick stuff like shield, Dtilt (if the opponent rushes in) etc etc...

Zoning... spacing... whatever... I don't really know. I go by how it sounds to me hehe... zoning has this oomph sound to it that makes me think it's about keeping the victim in the right spots on the stage thus maximising your options and minimising them for the victim - kinda like how marth may possibly zone with fairs and dtilts to keep Zelda in that optimal position to do absolutely nothing about it.

B-reversal is just pressing a b move in the opposing direction. Wavebouncing... I think is the same thing, but I'm not expert.

This is my take on the terms btw so I don't know =p You might wanna ask someone in the workshop.

 

[zeldspazz]

Alright thanks both of you

One more question (I think):

Do Zelda's Fair/Bair/Dair's sourspot stale the sweetspot?

 

[-Mars-]

Yep. which is gay but true nonetheless.

 

[zeldspazz]

That sucks, thanks though.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

-Difference between B-reversal and Wavebouncing

B-reversal is just pressing a b move in the opposing direction. Wavebouncing... I think is the same thing, but I'm not expert.
.

actually, wavebouncing is where you move while doing the move, i think you can reverse wavebounce, but idk.

like Breversal Dins or nayrus, Zelda turns and does it the other way w/o turning first, instantly. while wavebounce dins Zelda shoots back while tossing the fireball forward.

 

[zeldspazz]

Perhaps a video would explain it better cus I dont get it >.<

 

[JigglyZelda003]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFlwgvN3PWM

thats a wavebounce

 

[GreyFox86]

B-Reversal and Wavebouncing is all in the button coordination.

While B-Reversing is just hitting the opposite direction before you hit B, WB is the process of doing your B move a few frames after you hit the opposite direction.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53Wix_KsK5g

That explains the WB a little bit better.

 

[KayLo!]

This is a really minor question, but:

I was playing vs. TUSM, and I did an aerial Din's near the ledge..... and you know how when you land with Din's, Zelda sorta slides forward a bit? Yeah, well, that slide turned into me bouncing right off the stage into a freefall. -_____- It would've been funny if I hadn't died.... she straight up bounced, lol.

My question is: is there a way to avoid that little slide, or am I banned from doing aerial Din's near the ledge? ;-;

 

[GreyFox86]

This is a really minor question, but:

I was playing vs. TUSM, and I did an aerial Din's near the ledge..... and you know how when you land with Din's, Zelda sorta slides forward a bit? Yeah, well, that slide turned into me bouncing right off the stage into a freefall. -_____- It would've been funny if I hadn't died.... she straight up bounced, lol.

My question is: is there a way to avoid that little slide, or am I banned from doing aerial Din's near the ledge? ;-;

This.

I've had that happen to me many a time. Annoying as hell, I know. :X

If anything, Din's away from the ledge.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

i've acidentally reverse wavebounced off the ledge.....fun times

 

[MdrnDayMercutio]

I missed the arguement, but there is grab armour. By the way.

Attacking Ganon while he's SideBing does nothing. Same to DK when Cargo'ing someone.

Unless I'm crazy.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

My question is: is there a way to avoid that little slide, or am I banned from doing aerial Din's near the ledge? ;-;

I think I'm misunderstanding the question, but oh well...

Stopping or reversing your momentum before activating Din prevents suiciding. Also, if you want to use Din's instantly from a forward jump without any risk of accidentally going off-stage you can always wavebounce it.

I missed the arguement, but there is grab armour. By the way.

Attacking Ganon while he's SideBing does nothing. Same to DK when Cargo'ing someone.

That argument was nearly a month ago, lol.

True, Ganon's side B has a grab armor. It also has super armor from when he's holding someone in the air (after grabbing them on the ground) until he slams them to the ground.

 

[KayLo!]

I think I'm misunderstanding the question, but oh well...

Stopping or reversing your momentum before activating Din prevents suiciding. Also, if you want to use Din's instantly from a forward jump without any risk of accidentally going off-stage you can always wavebounce it.

Meh, it's not a huge deal, I'll just watch my spacing. Wavebouncing with normal controls is too complicated.

/lazy

It's mostly an issue when I sweetspot kick someone while decently high in the air, but I know they're not gonna die..... I'll use Din's to keep some sort of pressure on them if I'm not in a position to follow up with anything else. But then OH NO, there's the ledge! ><

This is a situation where not freefalling after Din's would be great. @.@ Or at least not being completely helpless while it's charging.

 

[GodAtHand]

That happens sometimes... Instead of immediately using Din's after the LK wait like 1 second until you just start to move the opposite direction then use it. That way she doesn't slide toward her doom. Usually if you do use Din's and know you are going to get hurt if you immediately release she can usually grab the ledge. Don't try to hit them if there is a chance of that happening lol.

 

[*JuriHan*]

i cant find the guide lol... link?

 

[Half-Split Soul]

We don't have an up-to-date guide ATM... However, here's the old guide:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=196906

It's probably a good idea to take a look at the OP of the research thread too:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=218082

Also, feel free to ask anything right here in this Q&A.

Edit: Finally, here's a link for the old guide about Farore's wind:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=155351

 

[zeldspazz]

Yeah idk what happened to that guide KayLo!

 

[GodAtHand]

We should start calling her by a different name (since she seems to hate that) until she gets it up lol. How about... Gay...lo?