Zelda+: OP In-Process of Overhaul as of 04-05-10

[JCaesar]

He lives!

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

yo sorry guys i left myself logged in at a friends house he seemed to of trolled a little my bad for not logging out

 

[Bandit]

Ok, so it is friday.

What Zelda+ players will be at Pound 4?

+1 Bandit

 

[Alphatron]

Not I. Out of state johns + no real tourney experience.

I'll try to incorperate dair into my game a bit more. Although, I usually face a guy who mains Peach and subs ROB so...

 

[Bandit]

JCaesar is my training partner, so I get a ton of ROB.

And I spike him a lot.

Jump out. Bait the Uair. Spike. Recover safely. Repeat as necessary.

If he nairs, Dair beats it unless he spaces it properly (not easy).

If he hits you with the Uair, you get hit with a little damage and get bumped vertically back towards the stage. I've traded with Uair too, so if he doesn't get the Uair out fast enough, I spike him while getting hit.

As for Peach, throw out the Dair early. If you flub hit them, it's still detrimental to their recovery. If they hit you with Uair, then you take damage and fly back up in the air.

The worst thing that happens in both cases is you get hit back up in the air with some damage. The best thing is you get a kill.

Damage + Easy Recovery vs Kill at varying percents. The reward far out weighs the risk.

:bandit:

 

[Veril]

The problem with Zelda's neutral-b not reflecting moves warrants a fix, purely because there was a mistake made with the alterations to that move somewhere down the line. That move is meant to reflect. On the other hand, the vBrawl is really not something you want.

In Andarel can find out how to make it reflect as it was intended without reverting it to vBrawl or changing it to any degree that would qualify as a significant balance change, I would be 100% behind the fix. Its basically fixing a bug/glitch rather than a buff. Nobody ever intended to mess up nl. It would still have to be voted on but I am sure it will go through IF it changes nothing else.



As for redoing Zelda... There's really no way to make that happen. It runs contrary to everything I've said about being conservative with changes. I'm not doing nightlies anymore because of reasons I have already laid out in detail so the feedback necessary to confirm sweeping changes will not exist. It isn't necessary to make Zelda "viable", which she is... and even if she is in the lower half of the cast in some imaginary tier list in your heads. Don't get upset by that, but anytime the word "tier" comes up, it takes away from whatever point any of you are trying to make. Obviously not every character can be high tier. That every character is viable is already an amazing feat and drastic changes to any character don't just alter them, but every matchup they have, and thus the entirety of the cast.

look into nl though, that I am totally willing to fix.

 

[Bandit]

Thanks Veril. It's the only thing I see that warrants a change at this time.

People generally don't have the patience to play her defensive, campy game, and they should just commit seppuku and press down B.

Problem solved.

:bandit:

 

[The Cape]

Veril:

Make the hitboxes reflect.

Moron I swear V.V

 

[Veril]

Anyone got a good frame by frame set of hitbox images for NL? lol but seriously... Making the outer hitboxes reflect goes beyond a mere fix, so I'd rather not make all of them reflect.

 

[Bandit]

I would ask Magus about what he did to the flags of these hitboxes before blaming me about what was actually done to the hitboxes themselves.

I apologize. I shouldn't throw blame at anyone.

Besides, the Zelda you helped create is a solid character which I, personally, love to play.

Welcome back to the boards. I hope you post more often

:bandit:

PS - It was great playing friendlies with you at Pound. Your Sheik is near untouchable at times, and all your other characters are at a very high level. Very impressive and great fun to play. I hope to see you around again sometime.

 

[Alphatron]

You were right and dair is nowhere near as bad as I thought it was. I've pretty much given up on Peach though, because the guy I play will UpB as soon as I enter his personal space. I took some replays of my Zelda for once, but the matches were pretty terrible, so I decided not to have them uploaded.

 

[Bandit]

I have time tonight to work on putting out the first section of the guide. I'll post information here and the OP when I do.

Is there any requests for topics to cover?

 

[Alphatron]

Non situational setups into utilt. Basically, when dtilt can reliably combo into it.

Best options out of FF Nair.

That's what comes to mind right now.

 

[Bandit]

I'll see what I can do on those topics, and if I have any videos showcasing them (my goal).

 

[Bandit]

The Dtilt to Utilt combo is different on every character. There is a percentage window from when they pop up and can be hit to the time they pop up and Utilt can't hit them. I don't have the numbers for certain right now, but I'll test it on 4 characters tomorrow: Mario, Jiggs, Pit, and Ike. I'll post the data I find which should give you a good range for guessing at when you play these characters.

I'm going to say 80% to 120% is a good range that it probably would work on most of the cast. Once over 120%, Dtilt to LK then Dtilt to Uair are the options for killing.

I'll do a full write up when I get the data.

-----

The Nair is still new, so I am still experimenting with it. The hit boxes were expanded to allow for it to become an approach move.

A few things that seem true:

- If you FF Nair into their shield, you have a free dtilt or Usmash. I would dtilt since it is far safer on shields and shield pokes. Usmashing into a shield is asking for punishment since it almost never pokes.
- Autocancel Nair behind them into their shield and you have a few more options. Rising Bair is a fair choice that should sweetspot on most of the cast. If they let go of their shield, it will be pretty big punishment. Usmash is safer since they are facing away from you.
- Nair is quick enough to get in on a lot of characters. Ganon and Captain Falcon have a horrible time with this move.

-----

I'll be adding vBrawl frame data to the opening page. I'll start changing it to Brawl+ frame data when the changelist is completed. This should give you some pretty valuable data to hold you over until the full write up for both Nair and Dtilt combos is done. There is a lot of dtilt stuff to talk about, and I think it is the most important thing to master when playing Zelda.

-----

:bandit:

 

[JCaesar]

Usmashing into a shield is asking for punishment since it almost never pokes.

I take issue with that statement. Usmash is a shieldpoking machine by design. Anything less than about 3/4 of a shield gets ***** by usmash.

 

[Rion]

Well, I just got back from my first decently sized Brawl+ tournament, Let's Brawl Toronto 2.

Was really interesting and fun! Definitely wanna share some experience.

Tomorrow probably.

So tired...

 

[blueriku]

I just go back into smash since brawl plus came out (main Zelda/sheik) and my friend hero and i would like to start playing other ppl ( online or in person doesn't matter ) we are pretty experienced (been playing since melee, went to tourneys ect ect and i want to learn more about zelda than i already do know now so if thier are any takers PM and i would also like to go against some really good zeldas to like ryoko...does he still play? anyways just putting this out there.

 

[Katy Parry]

"facepalm"

If other Zelda mains actually got the gist of my post... it was that if you don't have a complete understanding of exactly what you are asking for on every relevant level, you have no business doing so this late. Andarel has also brought up wanting to change Zelda. Andarel is actually working with the development team, and I know he's not some random person with no competitive experience at all wasting my god-d*** precious time, but the same applies to him.

If, however, someone like Andarel/Bandit/whoever actually do have all of what I requested when requesting a non-essential change, I welcome your input. Seriously.

@NAGACE

Dude. I don't even know where to start with responding to the above post. The fact that you PMed me exactly what I didn't want, wasting my time, and cross-posted here... well, you are either really really clueless or incredibly ballsy. Probably both. Do not PM me again, ever. I will not even see it. You no longer have the benefit of the doubt. I actually do need all of that limited space in my PM box for the purpose of coordinating this project. The fact that you essentially spammed me is unbelievable.


This one line absolutely destroyed any tiny shred of credibility you still had.



Unless the problem actually results in Zelda being non-viable or having 95:5 matchups I would like everyone to attempt to chill and actually get better with her. My current focus is not on buffs, but on removing truly overpowered and centralizing tactics (see DDD) or looping autocombos (one such combo has been confirmed D: and is being dealt with).

Okay, let me just say this now, I LOVE you. I've never laughed so hard over a serious matter. And I sure needed it, I haven't had a very good day today.

I'm glad someone is actually trying to put effort and care into the handling of Zelda. Thank you!

 

[GodAtHand]

Went to a brawl + tournament the other day. Played Zelda.

If you want my opinion or anything on any matter just ask and I'll tell.

 

[Alphatron]

Well, go on then?

 

[Bandit]

Riot and Rion, do you like Usmash?

If you can, I need to talk to you about it. There is a lot of commotion going on about the move, and I'd like your input. I'll post again when I get home and tell you about the situation.

:bandit:

 

[MdrnDayMercutio]

Quick version of Riot's opinion - He hates it because it the hitbox was lowered and doesn't poke through platforms on BF anymore. And he isn't adjusting to it well since the amount he plays plus is less than vBrawl. And he want's it changed back quite a bit.

Other than that he still likes it as a move.

 

[Rion]

Oh dear, a commotion about Usmash? Somehow I'm not terribly surprised considering it's history of getting changed every patch...

There always seems to be something about it that just has to be changed.

"Combos way too much!"

"Now it's totally useless as a combo move, or a kill move!"

"Why did you change the angle?!"

"It pokes platforms! Clearly something needs to be done."

"What do you mean it has invincibility frames?"

"LUIGI MANSION BOM-OMBS OH GOD ASDFSGADFGARE!"

It's almost impossible to agree on something...

Though to be fair, I thought the change to invincibility was a little sudden. It kind of came out of nowhere! And I didn't really feel that it poking platforms on Battlefield was a big issue.

I'm pretty tired right now, but I have to say I'm a little torn about Usmash's current state.

I don't think my opinion's very good for this situation haha but I can try to offer my small insight.

When I've slept anyway.

 

[ThatGuy]

Well, I just got back from my first decently sized Brawl+ tournament, Let's Brawl Toronto 2.

Was really interesting and fun! Definitely wanna share some experience.

Tomorrow probably.

So tired...

I'm pretty tired right now, but I have to say I'm a little torn about Usmash's current state.

I don't think my opinion's very good for this situation haha but I can try to offer my small insight.

When I've slept anyway.

Hehe, Rion must be going through some massive insomnia right now.

 

[Bandit]

This never happened.

 

[MdrnDayMercutio]

To be perferctly fair, unless you talked to Riot and he had stronger feelings than I thought, it's a little silly to put his name in when he hasn't commentated himself.

And I know for a fact, cause I've watched it happen, OBM has talked to Riot every chance he's had about Zelda. To find out an opinion from a Zelda Mains stand point.

 

[Bandit]

This never happened.

 

[cobaltblue]

I'm with you bandit. Although I have about as much weight as a toothpick in a hurricane.

 

[MdrnDayMercutio]

Riot plays Plus once and awhile. And mostly since GSH2, since that's when OBM/Nacho and I have started making big pushes to hold Plus tourneys. Not sure how much he can say versus what has been in place just Plus Zelda vs vZelda, though.

 

[Bandit]

This never happened.

 

[Alphatron]

Offensively, usmash is overshadowed by utilt(greater kill power) if we're talking about comboing from dtilt. Yes, the only use that usmash has right now is for punishing aerials. Hope they fall into it and slam up on the c-stick.

The usmash hitting on platforms above Zelda were never a huge problem to begin with due to the fact that the entire move isn't guarenteed to hit you at all. Comparing this move with DDD uptilt may have been a bad example though, since he's extending his hurtbox above the platform as well (I've been hit by an Ike fsmash on the upper Halberd platform in this way). However I see your point. Several other characters have utilts/upsmashes that hit on platforms directly above them and aside from Zelda's long lasting hitbox (which Lucas also has), I don't see what she really had over them.

The last two changes are terrible. The first one...doesn't exactly make the upsmash any better but is a sensible preferred option. Still though, RC1 upsmash was a better move than this and I would be much happier to see it return.

Now how do we argue the necessity of this is the question.

 

[Bandit]

This never happened.

 

[Glick]

How about this idea:

We should just completely erase all B+ changes to zelda, and start fresh.

She seems to be the most awkward and most old-ganon(****ty and still ****** good at the same time in certain aspects) status.

I think with the new team we would create an amazing character. If we started it now it would certainly get done by the next release (in what, 293u409238429038409234 months?)

For now, it should really be reverted back to 5.0 hitbox. and no invincibility frames.

Damage and power can be fiddled with.

 

[Isatis]

Don't hate me for doing this, but this needs to be addressed.

According to Veril's rule on buff/nerf suggestion, this is not the topic to discuss buffing Zelda's usmash, and instead should solely be focused on discussing it with Veril in VM's or PM's. Leave the general Zelda discussion (metagame, strategies, etc) to this thread.

Thanks.

 

[Bandit]

Hit Box Bubbles from vBrawl. The first is done by Battletanx Commander and the second is done by KayLo!. This is for reference for any discussion that may be coming and will be added to the OP.

Spoiler

This thread will serve as a collective base for all things pertaining to Zelda's hitbubbles.​

Here is the download link for the .pac. FitZelda.pac
NOTE!: To activate the hitbubbles you must press Dtaunt and to deactivate them press Uptaunt.

Additional screenshots courtesy of KayLo!. http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8904458&postcount=61

Index​

• Grabs
• Ground Attacks
• Aerials
• Specials
• Ledge Attack

Grabs

Standing Grab

Running Grab

Pivot Grab

Ground Attacks

Jab

Dtilt

Ftilt

It is the same angled up or down.

Utilt
First Part

Maximum length vertically.

Last part

Fsmash

Occurs four more times with the last hit being the knockback.

Dsmash

First Hit

Second Hit

Usmash

Occurs ten more times then a knockback hit. Could not find a way to stop the hitbubbles from appearing during the first and second interval of the attack. Recently found out how to fix it. :V

Dash Attack

First Part

Second part

Aerials

Nair

Occurs four more times with the last hit being the kockback.

Dair

First part has the sweetspot hitbubble.

Second part with the weak hitbubble.

Fair

Sweetspot is in the last hitbubble.

Bair

Sweetspot is in the last hitbubble.

Uair

Specials

UpB

Ending is the same.

B

Occurs four more times.

Knockback Hitbubble

Ledge Attacks

Less then 100%

Greater then 100%

Yay for another simple one. :V

Spoiler

Shows some hitboxes not included in the OP.

Shots taken wide with Marth for size comparison.

Jab

Initial hitboxes:

Final hitbox:

Dash Attack

Part 1:

Part 2:

Dtilt

Ftilt

Part 1:

Part 2:

Utilt

Part 1:

Part 2:

Part 3:

Dsmash

Part 1:

Part 2:

Part 3:

Part 4:

Fsmash

Initial hitboxes:

Final hitbox:

Usmash

Initial hitboxes:

Final hitbox:

Nair

Initial hitboxes:

Final hitbox:

Fair
*Note how the hitbox contracts*

Part 1:

Part 2:

Bair

Part 1:

Part 2:

Uair

Dair

Part 1 (sweetspot):

Part 2 (sourspot):

Naryu's Love

Initial hitboxes:

Final hitbox:

Farore's Wind

Part 1:

Part 2:

Standing Grab

Dash Grab

Pivot Grab

Ledge Attack (<100%)

Part 1:

Part 2:

Ledge Attack (>100%)

Part 1:

Part 2:

 

[GodAtHand]

I don't know anything about upsmash besides what it is in Vbrawl, and what is now in Brawl+. I am just going to say my thoughts about EVERYTHING I noticed playing competitive Brawl+

My thoughts are this:

Upsmash:

- It's not a particularly bad move... but I really don't find it poking through platforms to be game breaking when tons of other characters can do it... And it is weird to have to rethink my counter picks.

- It just looks dumb... When you are upsmashing and characters are shooting or throwing projectile through you it make the move seem poorly designed.

- Having a powerful anti-air is important when Zelda's air options are still so incredibly limited. The nerf makes it less useful for that... never mind that Zelda is still one of the slowest ground characters soooo....... it really wasn't that big of a deal.

- It isn't nearly as good offensively. I was hyphen smashing into people and instead of being shield poked (Like they should have for letting Zelda get that close) they could shield through the entire thing with ease. Not good...

- On the plus side it gave her up tilt more purpose... Honestly I think uptilt should have the invincibility since it so slow still and only has very limited uses still.

Overall I really don't like what they did to it....

Uptilt: I feel like this move pretty much stayed the same... still only useful in a few situations and combos.

Ftilt: Still completely out-shined by Fsmash for spacing and speed. Only useful in combos and surpises. Maybe you could make it fast or give it set-knockback so that it always combos pretty well? It is definitely riskier to use this rather than Fsmash so it should offer some sort of reward.

Dtilt: I didn't really notice anything too different other than some differences in the % for the lock from Vbrawl.

Nayrus's: I didn't use this move much since I am not accustom to using it very often in Vbrawl. I don't know the exact details but it seems pretty much the same... which means it is not very useful. I think it would be cool to allow Zelda to sort of float at walking speed while she is using it. That would be mildly helpful when she is getting camped.

Din's: Same old same old here. Can be used in the air now w/o freefall which is good sometimes when recovering. The amount of lag it has in the air though makes it less useful for comboing than I had hoped.

Farore's: Same old again. It seems a little bit faster on startup, but still puts her in freefall. (Why does Lucario get to not free fall and Zelda can't?). If she is still going to freefall at least have so that (for example) if you hold the B button throughout the move she teleports half as far, that way she has two lengths she can go and it will be a little safer to recover with her... That or no freefall I think it needs one or the other. (obviously you wouldn't be able to use it again until she touches the ground.

Fair/Bair: Pretty much the same. I heard from OBM that the sweetspots are bigger, but to a Vbrawl Zelda main that doesn't matter much.

Up air: Still the same it seems. Nothing I noticed seemed off.

Dair: Why can't this sweetspot on the ground? That is crazy lame when Zelda's air options suck already against grounded opponents. Such a slow move with poor range deserves to do more than 5 damage. Honestly it doesn't even need to pop them up like Ganon's or anything, just do like 15% or something. Not abysmal when your enemy is in the air, but still not great.

Nair: Seems around the same to me. Does it do a little bit more damage? And with the stun it seems harder for enemies to escape, which is good...




Overall: It is still the same old Zelda... Still very vulnerable in the air, but now she isn't as good on the ground. It seems in the end like Zelda really didn't get what she needed to be even with the rest of the cast, she still has some matchups that will just obliterate her showing that she has some hey weaknesses. It seems like her air game was left roughly the same, which is high-risk high-reward but almost useless against grounded opponents. And her ground game nerfed, making her air game even more important...

Just my thoughts...

<3 Riot.

 

[Bandit]

Don't hate me for doing this, but this needs to be addressed.

According to Veril's rule on buff/nerf suggestion, this is not the topic to discuss buffing Zelda's usmash, and instead should solely be focused on discussing it with Veril in VM's or PM's. Leave the general Zelda discussion (metagame, strategies, etc) to this thread.

Thanks.

Bio, I actually tried that. I was ignored. I tried talking to Blind as well, and him and I could never be on at the same time.

Anyway, I'll keep talking about this Zelda as evidence of the post above to bring more and better reference material to my thread. (Hit Bubble Post)

 

[Plum]

I do think it's interesting that Zelda's Usmash was basically segregated when there are moves better in many ways left alone, and on arguably better characters.

DDD's Utilt is the easy example. Fast, very hard to punish when used correctly, stabs through any platform, easy to combo into at low percents, possible to combo into at kill percents, almost universally guaranteed out of an inhale release, combos into almost anything at low and mid percents, kills very early, and invincible on hit. For any move that has the range to hit his Utilt he has an answer to. Between Utilt, Bair, Said, Fair and grabs DDD's aerial defense largely exceeds a character like Zelda and she's supposed to be a defensive powerhouse. Some things confuse me in this game... At this point I agree with those who just want it to go back to 5.0.

 

[Isatis]

Yes, but it's Veril's project, I'll bug him to get his input in this thread and he'll decide what course of action to take, but for now, it's best if you all stop >__>

(just trying to do my job...)