Zelda+: OP In-Process of Overhaul as of 04-05-10

[Bandit]

No messenger killing here. You have to do what you have to do.

OP finished with update.

@Riot, I'll respond later but thanks for posting.

@Plum & Glick, again thanks for responding. I'll get back to you tomorrow through PM's.

 

[Glick]

Honestly bandit. I'm not exactly on your side. I didn't even read your post in entirety. A lot of those points really don't make any sense or have any serious backing to them.

I didn't really make myself clear and sort of just made a vague post.

I stand by what I said, but i don't think her up smash sucks now.
I wasn't even exactly referencing your post either, though i glanced at it.

Sorry if i broke some rules. I guess I didn't exactly think that post through.


It was more like
"put upsmash back because it's stupid
zelda sucks lets redo her"

Whatever.
I'll stop now, i just wanted to make that clear.

 

[Isatis]

k, i'm gonna lock this til Veril gets here tomorrow morning =/

 

[Veril]

I have spoken to all parties involved in this fiasco. There are two fixes currently on the table: one is to adjust the current up-smash as per leaf/Cape's fix. The other is to revert the up-smash vertical hitboxes, remove the tripbox and inv frames and adjust SDIability to make it escapable if predicted. The exact details of the SDI change are still in discussion but the core issues are its vertical reach and those inv. frames.

This was blown massively out of proportion, something which even Bandit agrees with me on. While I know and respect him, I am very much displeased that he decided to take this route instead of waiting for my response to his PM (it wasn't as though weeks had passed, it was only about 4 days he waited, at which point I wasn't sure as to the alternate fix I would propose).

 

[Isatis]

And it's back!

 

[Rion]

Oh thread, how I have missed you so.

Boy, this Usmash business really made quite an uproar.

And a choice of Usmash types? Let's see...

Usmash Option #1:

- Lowered hitboxes
- Invulnerability, but less than before.

Usmash Option #2:

- Back to original vertical hitboxes
- No invulnerability
- SDI-able if predicted

If you're gonna make the thing escapable in any shape or form, I'm definitely gonna have to go with option #1 because if an opportunity ever arises to escape, it will most likely happen if people learn it properly.

I'd rather have a Usmash that reliably connects and stays connected rather than one that has a chance, even if small, of completely getting gimped because of escape.

I've had enough of Zelda's moves getting BS escaped, thank you!

 

[Bandit]

Well, at this point, the BR is making pacs of the different options and will be testing them to see which one is more acceptable and take a vote.

We'll see where it lands, but it is good to see you back posting, Rion!

I've missed this thread as well.

I've been putting more and more data in from vBrawl in the OP. I'll adjust all the frame data when a change list is released, but it should give all who don't know a good idea.

 

[Bandit]

Submit videos of your Brawl+ 6.0 Zelda! We'll throw them all out when they go 7.0 or whatever the next one is, but we want to see you in action.

-----

Edit: Realized I still have a few other matches from the week before Pound I can put up. None are against DDD which was the only character changed before Pound.

So coming up (if I can find them:
- MM vs Chibo's ROB
- MM vs Glick's Jiggz & Falcon
- Tourney vs Silven's Ike (can't remember if any of these got put up but I will look)
- Tourney vs Blackanese's MK
- Teams Tourney vs Chibo & Mexi (ROB & Squirtle)
- Teams Tourney vs Blackanese & Guru (MK & Squirtle)
- Teams Tourney vs Glick & Waffle (Jiggz & DK)

 

[Bandit]

Videos that I was not able to recover were Glick's Falcon, Silven's Ike, 2 of 3 matches vs Chibo & Mexi.

I am pretty sure I was able to find the rest, and I will get the links up this afternoon.

 

[Alphatron]

Too bad you don't accept online videos or else I'd actually have vids to submit. I can see why though.

 

[Bandit]

Tournament this weekend, so expect some more videos in the OP.

@Alphatron - You kinda answered yourself, but yes, I don't accept WiFi videos. The game is different online.

I would like to get some other players in the OP, so send the videos my way.

 

[Bandit]

Also, if you go to a Brawl+ tournament, post your results here! I'll keep track of them in the OP.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

****, only one post that isn't by Bandit in over a week...

Anyway, I've actually made an effort to pick up Zelda to compliment my Sheik, who I've used since the early days of vBrawl.

The two work insanely well together, and after playing around a bit more with Zelda playing active defense, I'm beginning to get...not horrible with her.

I was actually wondering if any Zelda players have found a reliable use for her dair? It's a powerful enough spike, but I can't seem to ever find a reliable way to set it up offstage. Suggestions?

 

[Bandit]

If they recover low, jump out and force them to hit you. If they air dodge, they will die. If their move loses, they will die. If their recovery move wins, you get hit up into the air and can safely recover.

Dsmash is about the only other move she sends down other than non-sweet spot dash attack (pushes away). Either of these moves could force a low recovery.

Also, harassing with dins and purposefully missing to keep them air dodging will cause them to fall within dair range. Dins to Dair combo just doesn't happen unless they were going to die anyway.

 

[Alphatron]

Since I can't play the set yet, how's the new upsmash?

 

[Bandit]

I never received a test pac of the Usmashes being considered and I never heard how it was resolved, so I have no idea. I don't have a wii of my own to even see if they did anything to it.

 

[Alphatron]

I won't get to play until next week so I'll see for myself then. I assume it will just be the invincibility fix.

 

[Bandit]

If I play it before hand, I'll post up.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

I never received a test pac of the Usmashes being considered and I never heard how it was resolved, so I have no idea. I don't have a wii of my own to even see if they did anything to it.

Last I heard, Cape's new usmash was the one that made it in.

 

[Veril]

Last I heard, Cape's new usmash was the one that made it in.

TH+, I highly recommend reading through the Zelda up-smash thread in the backroom and witnessing how my alt. fix was torn apart by VaNz, Cape, and Magus (rightly so). They basically showed how my fix would in fact be a much more significant nerf to Zelda. The only person who vocally supported it at all besides myself was JCz and he stopped supporting it to push for a revert to 5.0 (which is a pretty substantial buff to the move as compared to the other fixes, and insane given how the boundaries have changed in 7.0). It was pretty clearly shown that Leaf's fix (which is also the P:M up-smash iirc) was vastly superior to the alternative I proposed, much better than the super-armor idea (in an early vote, a significant majority of the b+broom supported this!) and infinitely less harsh than the fix proposed by VaNz.

Zelda's up-smash knockback was not altered in this set at all, nor were any of its other epic properties like being a multihit, extremely fast (for a smash) powerhouse of a move... And guess what? It kills a good deal earlier.

Zelda also benifits more from the altered boundaries than many characters due to her high kbg moves (I can explain the math behind this to any willing to sit through that lecture). She also suffered from Sakurai angles on her f/d-smash and f/b-air. All of which kill more effectively now.

So if anyone thinks I somehow attempted to f*** over Zelda then they should pull their head out of their a**.

 

[GHNeko]

I'm scared of Zelda now. ;_;

 

[Bandit]

Why? Just camp like in Brawl and have a day with her.

 

[JCaesar]

The only person who vocally supported it at all besides myself was JCz and he stopped supporting it to push for a revert to 5.0 (which is a pretty substantial buff to the move as compared to the other fixes, and insane given how the boundaries have changed in 7.0).

I did? o_O

 

[Thunderhorse+]

TH+, I highly recommend reading through the Zelda up-smash thread in the backroom and witnessing how my alt. fix was torn apart by VaNz, Cape, and Magus (rightly so). They basically showed how my fix would in fact be a much more significant nerf to Zelda. The only person who vocally supported it at all besides myself was JCz and he stopped supporting it to push for a revert to 5.0 (which is a pretty substantial buff to the move as compared to the other fixes, and insane given how the boundaries have changed in 7.0). It was pretty clearly shown that Leaf's fix (which is also the P:M up-smash iirc) was vastly superior to the alternative I proposed, much better than the super-armor idea (in an early vote, a significant majority of the b+broom supported this!) and infinitely less harsh than the fix proposed by VaNz.

Zelda's up-smash knockback was not altered in this set at all, nor were any of its other epic properties like being a multihit, extremely fast (for a smash) powerhouse of a move... And guess what? It kills a good deal earlier.

Zelda also benifits more from the altered boundaries than many characters due to her high kbg moves (I can explain the math behind this to any willing to sit through that lecture). She also suffered from Sakurai angles on her f/d-smash and f/b-air. All of which kill more effectively now.

So if anyone thinks I somehow attempted to f*** over Zelda then they should pull their head out of their a**.

I did read the topic, and I did read how VaNz, Cape, and Magus tore apart the alt Zelda fix. That's what I mean by thinking the Cape/Leaf/Project M fix was the one that got in (I called it the Cape fix because last time I called it the Leaf/Project M fix in that same topic you're referring to, Cape got fairly upset at me, claiming it should've been referred to as his fix XD). However nothing was said on what our course of action with it would be after Cape/VaNz/Magus deconstructed it, hence "last I heard". We might've been leaving the usmash as is for all that was said afterwards :/. Or we may have gone with many of the other fixes you outlined in your first paragraph. As I said, the discussion about Zelda died so suddenly that I could infer we all agreed the alternate fix couldn't be done, but very little else.

 

[GHNeko]

Why? Just camp like in Brawl and have a day with her.

With Mario, I meant.

I forgot I picked Marth back up upon the death of Rarth.

 

[Bandit]

With Mario, I meant.

I forgot I picked Marth back up upon the death of Rarth.

Oh...

Then yes you should fear her.

 

[Veril]

I did? o_O

This sounds like the best solution yet.

Yes, you did.

Also, Yeroc... he's f***ing l33t.

The GCT for no-homebrew is the same as default, with the Disable Custom Stages code.

Ok, the reasoning behind Zelda. First, foremost, and above all else, the biggest consideration in my mind is mitigating the stupid, stupid loading queue and making the move have, ideally, a constant duration. It solidifies risk when using the move, allows you to make snap decisions about transforming because you know how long the move is going to take. I'm fully aware of the mechanics behind ryoko's change, and slowing the startup animation so that the total duration outside of the actual transform load is the same, but moving the point where it goes into transform. I think, quite frankly, that it looks like ***. Furthermore, I think it's a sloppy direction in which to take the entire dynamic of the move, because it tries to negate the impact of this undesirable trait (a nonstatic load time) instead of remove it entirely. I understand how it works. The dangerous period is both constant and contained in a single animation, and the negative part concerning the actual transform is no longer important because as soon as it's finished the move is over. I don't like the idea. I would prefer to take the entire thing and encapsulate it as a single entity. Towards that end, SD loading is the clear path ahead. Solid state storage retrieval is exceptionally faster than optical, drastically reducing the necessary loading time. Maybe it's not the same from system to system, but on each system it's the same from instance to instance. But, I've seen you all say, that doesn't change the fact that it's not a constant speed, because of the loading queue, etc. No, at this point it isn't and most likely never will be, but it is faster, and it is better. And just based on one of your examples, I think we have an avenue of investigation to help reduce the impact of the problem further.

The way I'm looking at it is, if you take all the factors involved in doing a transform load, and convert them to solid state storage, it will decrease and largely homogenize the total time it takes to perform all those loads. What this does, apart from decreasing the total length of load time, is decrease the variation in the total duration. Say your vbrawl load time is somewhere around a second. But we've all seen the factors that can affect that. Having multiples of the same character already loaded, hitting a stage loading point, can make that total duration, or t, last anywhere from less than a quarter second to nearly 2 seconds. The variability of t, or Δt, is quite large, over 100 frames.


|-----------------| t Loading just Zelda
|--|t Zelda preloaded
|-------------------------------------| t Loading Lylat plus Zelda
....|--------------| Δt Zelda only
....|----------------------------------| Δt plus outside factors

However, if we Take the Zelda files and put them on the SD card, the time required to load them is changed drastically.

|----| t Loading just Zelda
|--| t Zelda preloaded
|-----------------------| t Loading Lylat plus Zelda
....|-| Δt Zelda only
....|--------------------| Δt plus outside factors

While my diagrams are not to scale, you can see that just by putting Zelda files on the SD card, you can drastically cut down on both the total amount of loading time as well as the load time variance. In other words, Δt becomes relatively small. Using texture files, and maybe motionetc pacs, to reduce the t, and thereby Δt, of transforms is going to be part of the way the transforms are handled. This is not up for discussion. The idea I had last night was to investigate the other events that get dumped in the loading queue and mess with transform time. You all gave me the biggest perpetrator already: Lylat cruise. That stage is really 5 pacs in one. We can put them all on the SD card and all but eliminate the potential for variance on that stage entirely:

|----| t Loading just Zelda
|--| t Zelda preloaded
|-------| t Loading Lylat plus Zelda
....|-| Δt Zelda only
....|----| Δt plus outside factors

This would substantially cut down on just about all of the potential for variance in the transform time. What we can then do is search out other potential speed bumps in the loading queue and work out if they can be similarly transferred. I'm going to make a logical leap here, so bear with me, but for the rest of this post I'm going to assume the invulnerable loading period is static, or as close to static as we can possibly make it, and therefore, based on what I've demonstrated here, able to be regarded as a fixed amount of time.

If the amount of time it takes to load Zelda is constant, then the only factors left to consider are the (approximate) total duration of the transform animation and the animation appearance. When you assume a near-constant transform time, then shifting the placement of the load event is no longer necessary. It all becomes part of the total animation duration. It can then be relied upon in making the decision of whether to transform, at any point in the match. Between stocks, defensively, offensively, whatever.

tl;dr - Go back and ****ing read it. Even if SD loads aren't truly static, moving enough files to the SD card should cut down on so much of the load time variance that it's close enough to be considered so, which completely negates the need for an animation tweak.

 

[Bandit]

Nevermind, I just don't care.

If this works well, fine, great, pat yourself on the back, but you never talked to a Zelda main to get their input.

Same thing goes for Usmash.

Best part is: neither of those changes addresses her offensive game or her inability to deal with spammy projectile characters. Her meta-game will still be nearly identical to what it already was (and vBrawl for that matter). She'll still be a low tier character, and someone out there will still think S/Z is the way to go (which is horribly wrong since Sheik doesn't cover anywhere near the amount of match-ups she needs to).

 

[JCaesar]

Yes, you did.

You said I stopped supporting your fix to support a revert to 5.0. It was the other way around. At first I said 5.0 would've been better then Cape's fix, but when you and Bandit came up with that new fix, I supported that. I still do.

 

[eisley]

I am just wondering if anyone else thinks that with the new death boundaries and the sakurai angle fixes that zelda has become a little overpowered? her damage output thanks to combos combined with the fact that her fair and bair knockback distance on a mario from center of FD results in his death at 64 for fair and 63 for bair approximately makes her one hell of a character to fight against. Its not that hard to get a 2x Usmash to Uair or anything like that to get around 50ish% then its a dins fire or any other setup to fair and dead...my friend uses zelda exclusively and he even agrees that shes a bit scary now. And the numbers are to kill mario of the side, at lower percents hes not killed but still dies from lack of recovery...so possibly many characters would be screwed with a well timed fair/bair. The fact that they come out so fast makes it scary to approach in stun fearing a kick to the face. Usmash seems different in escapeability. I am not completely sure but can someone Smash DI out of it now? I find it hard to do unless I just do it too late.

 

[Veril]

Zelda players are too busy Johning to realize this. I was really hoping VaNz would have something to say here. NY+ has a very different view of Zelda than the people posting here.

BTW

Don't test KO% or adv with Mario, use Lucario, DK and Jigglypuff for the best overview of the cast.

 

[eisley]

Zelda players are too busy Johning to realize this. I was really hoping VaNz would have something to say here. NY+ has a very different view of Zelda than the people posting here.

BTW

Don't test KO% or adv with Mario, use Lucario, DK and Jigglypuff for the best overview of the cast.

glad to know that I am not just crazy about zelda right now. Up until now I had not complained about most any character changes but this seems like it needs a look. Thanks for the tip on using DK jiggs Lucario for testing, nevertheless, after countless matches, its clearly obvious that somethings awry.
Maybe some falcon knee-like nerfs and...well Im not gonna try to suggest something for Usmash.

 

[Bandit]

I have started the arduous task of overhauling the OP. I will be getting information as soon as I can where it needs to go, but the template has been created.

***Attention Zeldas***

If you have any videos, please submit them to this thread or to me in a PM. Brawl+ Gold Videos will only be accepted. No Wi-Fi videos accepted.

 

[Veril]

I really like the layout of this guide and definitely would encourage people to model their guides after it.

 

[shanus]

I did read the topic, and I did read how VaNz, Cape, and Magus tore apart the alt Zelda fix. That's what I mean by thinking the Cape/Leaf/Project M fix was the one that got in (I called it the Cape fix because last time I called it the Leaf/Project M fix in that same topic you're referring to, Cape got fairly upset at me, claiming it should've been referred to as his fix XD). .

Leaf made it though, and he deserves credit for it as he did a solid job

 

[Alphatron]

I guess we're getting that SD card fix afterall for Zelda/Sheik transformation...

 

[Cia]

anyone who complains about zelda 'not being good enough' in this set (at ALL) sucks and you should pray that ryoko will share his knowledge with you

 

[Bandit]

anyone who complains about zelda 'not being good enough' in this set (at ALL) sucks and you should pray that ryoko will share his knowledge with you

Woooooooooooooooooooooooooooow

Thank you so much for your insight.

She got a general buff like everyone else from the boundary changes, but she is still the same character she was the past two sets. Nothing significant happened to her. Projectiles still own her, Marth & G&W counter her hard, and she is a defensive power house.

Though, her Usmash now has more moves that can go through it than before (Falco Dair for example).

I'm not saying she's bad or good. I'm just saying she's the same and nothing about this set or the past few sets have done anything to affect her standing in this game.

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