D
Deleted member
Guest
Granted, time freezes forever and ever. Thanks.
I wish Problem Sleuth had a more epic ending after DMK was defeated.
I wish Problem Sleuth had a more epic ending after DMK was defeated.
-
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Wish Corruptor
- Thread starter tissue
- Start date
- Status
Brav3r
Smash Journeyman
granted, its chicken pie
i wish i had some coffee
i wish i had some coffee
Brav3r
Smash Journeyman
ERR0R!
I wish for non chicken flavored coffee
I wish for non chicken flavored coffee
Frown
poekmon
Granted. You love chicken flavored coffee.
I wish I wasn't ill.
I wish I wasn't ill.
Brav3r
Smash Journeyman
granted, maybe some chicken noodle soup will make you feel better
I had enough chicken for today, i wish for steak
I had enough chicken for today, i wish for steak
A1lion835
Smash Champion
Granted. It has flies on it.
I wish there was more appeal to post here for me.
I wish there was more appeal to post here for me.
jigglyppuff8
Smash Lord
Granted, but it's not coming until "You're banned!" is revived.
I wish for potato chips.
I wish for potato chips.
A1lion835
Smash Champion
Granted. They're not from Southeast Pennsylvania.
I wish for jigglyppuff8 to revive Southeast Pennsylvania.
I wish for jigglyppuff8 to revive Southeast Pennsylvania.
granted. SE Penn. is going to roll into a rest. F'TAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANG.
I wish for a good time at FRXII and a good outting.
I wish for a good time at FRXII and a good outting.
Frown
poekmon
Granted, he blows up in a carbon dioxide explosion of goodess, which causes global warming and death to us all.
I wish for jfbsihlbnsdkhj
I wish for jfbsihlbnsdkhj
The Dinkoman
Smash Lord
Granted, you get a wafjkdla;fjkdo too.
I wish for a parked car not to hit me tomorrow.
I wish for a parked car not to hit me tomorrow.
granted, a speeding car hits you tomorrow. (knocks on wood)
I wish I was the best SSBM player in the world.
I wish I was the best SSBM player in the world.
The Dinkoman
Smash Lord
Granted. Now you must give me a dollar.
I wish to get to Sarcasm faster.
I wish to get to Sarcasm faster.
Frown
poekmon
Granted, gas prices in Sarcasm are going through the roof.
I wish for lower gas prices.
I wish for lower gas prices.
sonicshadowshowdown
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Sep 29, 2008
- Messages
- 9
Granted, you get four reasons to not live.
I wish for a wish that could not be corrupted
I wish for a wish that could not be corrupted
Agi
Smash Lord
Say what? An Agi set withou t move interactions?
It's been a while since we had a moveset theory discussion, hasn't it? Even longer since I led one. Up until now, this issue has almost exclusively been debated between Warlord and the collective known as Roonahu, each of which leaves little room for compromise despite how easily accessible one is. While I'm standing on my soapbox I'll use the opportunity to paint my picture of a moveset, and try to show how I perceive the role of each and every aspect a moveset could possibly cover.
The list of things you need to consider when writing a set keeps getting longer. At first, all we worried about was whether or not the character could actually appear in SSB4. Then, all the move inputs were expected, from specials to throws. It took us about to MYM 2.0 to reach this level. Then came MYM 3.0, which is where many of today's veterans hail from, especially the big names. Among those names was Warlord, who pushed forward the first real movement in MYM's history... Detail. He pushed for extras as well, but that was an uphill battle as we rarely see the level we had back then today. In MYM 4, we had learned how to express our ideas, so we could begin to make the ideas more complex. Enter the age of creativity, where each and every single move had enough random tacked-on effects to qualify as a special. A developing Playstyle movement began to form around this time, but the general public had too hard of a time understanding such a nebulous concept for it to really catch on. No, we had to wait for MYM 5 for that. MYM 6 was a period of refining, smoothing the rough edges of the previous movements (detail dropped impressively) and MYMers established their own unique styles.
Then MYM 7 came and everything went nuts.
This was the time when Roonahu -- not KRool, not Junahu, but Roonahu -- reared its head. This was the age of mass experimentation of the unsmash and emphasis of the character the set was being made for. Spy, Valozarg, Elves, caterpie, Alucard. Anything and everything that could change did. Leadership began to collapse, splitting apart under the weight of the contest. Rool officially retired, HR less so. Smady became the most universally hated leader in MYM history due to general slothfulness and a misinterpreted proposal put into action before its time. And this headed MYM 8, what we'll hopefully be able to look back on as little more than a slump. MYM 8 has continued the in-smash/in-character debate to its most heated, with MasterWarlord's Great Depression article and the numerous Katapultar movesets dedicated to this subject alone. It's no longer possible to ignore this debate, as how it is resolved will carve the path future MYMs will tread. Through this article, I hope to provide my voice on the matter, one I hope is shared by more than just me.
So, let's start at the first movement in MYM's recorded history, detail. Aside from organization, it's the first and most obvious thing you can tell about a set at a glance… how many lines per move? We’ve seen examples of overdetail (dancingfrogman’s sets, Cortiny) and underdetail (newcomer sets, caterpie) all too often in the past, but overdetail is beginning to fade away. Both approaches have proven to be ineffective, as an overdetailed set will scare away potential readers and punish those who slug on anyway, while an underdetailed set can’t express any creative ideas it may have. Detail is less of a concern nowadays than it was in the past, but occasionally there will be a clever idea that –just- misses its mark due to a missing detail. As a rule of thumb, detail cannot make a set, but it certainly can break it.
Balancing a set can be the easiest or the hardest thing you’ve ever done. Sometimes, it’s just a matter of number tweaking; a few damage points more or less, a touch of ending lag, limited uses. Other times, the underlying concept of the moveset is inherently imbalanced, and no matter how hard you try to fix it, it will always have balance issues. To demonstrate this, I’m going to make an example of my unreleased Pharaoh Man moveset, whom I’ll be condemning to the graveyard.
My take on Pharaoh Man was iffy from the beginning… it greatly increased his canonical abilities from a mere misinterpretation of the name of his weapon. It’s called the Pharaoh Shot, I thought it was the Pharaoh Sun. That’s right, I turned him into an egyptian sun god. The Neutral Special gave him the power to increase the sun’s intensity, turning the battlefield into a sauna of constant damage. However, any MM4 player could tell you… Pharaoh Man’s weakness is bright light. That’s right, he was weak to his primary form of attack, as he had a mechanic that caused him to combust after X seconds of exposure to sunlight. Anything less would be an insult to the original design, but how on earth do you balance that? He needs a way, of course, the shield himself from the sun’s rays. Enter the Down Special, which gives him the ability to cover himself in a layer of bandages, a super-sunscreen of sorts. Obviously, this brings about problems of its own, as it could just be a one-use move that he never has to think about again. So the addition of breaking off bandages was added, forcing him to apply more as the match progressed. It became even more complicated when I factored in light seeping through cracks in the partially broken bandages which would technically damage him and so on and so on etc. And oh god that's only two moves in and I have no idea whether that's balanced or not. One issue leads to another which leads to another, and eventually it's the question changes from "How do I balance this" to "Is it humanly possible to balance this?" We haven't even touched on KO methods yet, nor will we. Just remember when making your sets to not get too tied up in balancing the idea... there'll always be something that slips you up, so just have fun with it instead of worrying about the technical aspects.
And of course, Balance issues on their own aren't enough to condemn a set. Just take a look at Mewtwo and Negative Man, each of which broke the top 10. In the same contest. Each of them characterize an aspect of balance, over and underpowered, respectively, and milk it for all it's worth. Negative Man cries for an attack. Cries. Mewtwo is the overpowered god he was meant to be, with massive range and damage potential. Not despite, but because each of these sets had balance issues, they managed to place 7th and 10th in a period of heated competition.
This can be attributed to a single reason: they were both very in-character. Character a an idea has been getting a lot more attention lately, pushed forward by Junahu, Plorf, and Katapultar... yeah, not exactly the most credible supporters (Junahu excepted) but what are ya gonna do. However, they do have a solid point... over the years, MYM has become increasingly focused on the ideas of a moveset, and less concerned with the characters the set was made for in the first place.
Easily the most controversial of any of MYM's movements to this date, the Character movement has spawned more discussion than all the prior movements combined. Sandshrew, Jecht, the Great Depression, Movesets of the Past #6, hours upon hours in the chat dedicated to the subject... and somehow we STILL haven't come to an agreement. Arguably, the proponents of in-smash have been rather ineffective at getting their main points across. Instead of producing in-character sets that manage to have interesting playstyles, which is what we had been doing throughout most of MYM 4-6 anyhow, movesets like Sandshrew were made, throwing Playstyle completely out the window in favor of expressing a character's, um, character. While Sandshrew has fallen entirely out of favor within the main MYMing crowd, a closer look will reveal the lesson Plorf was trying to get across all along: Playstyle without Character is just as bad as Character without Playstyle.
Yes, I said it. If we lose sight of this very simple fact, then we have failed as a community. The thing is, everyone in MYM already knows this. You can't tell me that Warlord, the main person to argue against Character's importance, isn't fully aware of how important it is. Just take a look at his own Top 13 OOC movesets, or heck, any of his own sets. With few exceptions, most of them his more recent ones (Hannibean, Gamegeroge) they have all been entirely in character, breaking the boundaries of Smash to allow for them to be as true to the source material as possible. Ludicolo, Lunge, and especially Spy all point towards a deep understanding of the importance of Character... and let's not forget that this is the guy who brought us MYM Survivor.
So, why the countless arguments? Well, there's a rather common misconception about in-character sets... in that they're inherently tied to boring, Sakurai sets that you can just throw out any attack towards the opponent at any given time and still win. Because that's what every character in every video game ever does, right?
Well, no. In fact, since we're getting most of our crazy ideas FROM games, one would assume that those same crazy ideas are IN games, right? There are plenty, by which I mean thousands, of untapped characters with incredible moveset potential... and could still remain entirely in character! My feeling is that this is all residual from the age of mid MYM 6, the Punch-Out!! movement, and the beginning of the in-smash movement... accompanied by the unsmash movement and the crazy time of MYM 7.
Where to begin? A good example of the insmash movement can be found in KRool's sets during that time, especially the dreaded duo of The Elves and caterpie, both excursions into the untamed lands of Organization and Smashness. And above all, hated by virtually everyone.
It's been a while since we had a moveset theory discussion, hasn't it? Even longer since I led one. Up until now, this issue has almost exclusively been debated between Warlord and the collective known as Roonahu, each of which leaves little room for compromise despite how easily accessible one is. While I'm standing on my soapbox I'll use the opportunity to paint my picture of a moveset, and try to show how I perceive the role of each and every aspect a moveset could possibly cover.
The list of things you need to consider when writing a set keeps getting longer. At first, all we worried about was whether or not the character could actually appear in SSB4. Then, all the move inputs were expected, from specials to throws. It took us about to MYM 2.0 to reach this level. Then came MYM 3.0, which is where many of today's veterans hail from, especially the big names. Among those names was Warlord, who pushed forward the first real movement in MYM's history... Detail. He pushed for extras as well, but that was an uphill battle as we rarely see the level we had back then today. In MYM 4, we had learned how to express our ideas, so we could begin to make the ideas more complex. Enter the age of creativity, where each and every single move had enough random tacked-on effects to qualify as a special. A developing Playstyle movement began to form around this time, but the general public had too hard of a time understanding such a nebulous concept for it to really catch on. No, we had to wait for MYM 5 for that. MYM 6 was a period of refining, smoothing the rough edges of the previous movements (detail dropped impressively) and MYMers established their own unique styles.
Then MYM 7 came and everything went nuts.
This was the time when Roonahu -- not KRool, not Junahu, but Roonahu -- reared its head. This was the age of mass experimentation of the unsmash and emphasis of the character the set was being made for. Spy, Valozarg, Elves, caterpie, Alucard. Anything and everything that could change did. Leadership began to collapse, splitting apart under the weight of the contest. Rool officially retired, HR less so. Smady became the most universally hated leader in MYM history due to general slothfulness and a misinterpreted proposal put into action before its time. And this headed MYM 8, what we'll hopefully be able to look back on as little more than a slump. MYM 8 has continued the in-smash/in-character debate to its most heated, with MasterWarlord's Great Depression article and the numerous Katapultar movesets dedicated to this subject alone. It's no longer possible to ignore this debate, as how it is resolved will carve the path future MYMs will tread. Through this article, I hope to provide my voice on the matter, one I hope is shared by more than just me.
DETAIL
So, let's start at the first movement in MYM's recorded history, detail. Aside from organization, it's the first and most obvious thing you can tell about a set at a glance… how many lines per move? We’ve seen examples of overdetail (dancingfrogman’s sets, Cortiny) and underdetail (newcomer sets, caterpie) all too often in the past, but overdetail is beginning to fade away. Both approaches have proven to be ineffective, as an overdetailed set will scare away potential readers and punish those who slug on anyway, while an underdetailed set can’t express any creative ideas it may have. Detail is less of a concern nowadays than it was in the past, but occasionally there will be a clever idea that –just- misses its mark due to a missing detail. As a rule of thumb, detail cannot make a set, but it certainly can break it.
BALANCE
Balancing a set can be the easiest or the hardest thing you’ve ever done. Sometimes, it’s just a matter of number tweaking; a few damage points more or less, a touch of ending lag, limited uses. Other times, the underlying concept of the moveset is inherently imbalanced, and no matter how hard you try to fix it, it will always have balance issues. To demonstrate this, I’m going to make an example of my unreleased Pharaoh Man moveset, whom I’ll be condemning to the graveyard.
My take on Pharaoh Man was iffy from the beginning… it greatly increased his canonical abilities from a mere misinterpretation of the name of his weapon. It’s called the Pharaoh Shot, I thought it was the Pharaoh Sun. That’s right, I turned him into an egyptian sun god. The Neutral Special gave him the power to increase the sun’s intensity, turning the battlefield into a sauna of constant damage. However, any MM4 player could tell you… Pharaoh Man’s weakness is bright light. That’s right, he was weak to his primary form of attack, as he had a mechanic that caused him to combust after X seconds of exposure to sunlight. Anything less would be an insult to the original design, but how on earth do you balance that? He needs a way, of course, the shield himself from the sun’s rays. Enter the Down Special, which gives him the ability to cover himself in a layer of bandages, a super-sunscreen of sorts. Obviously, this brings about problems of its own, as it could just be a one-use move that he never has to think about again. So the addition of breaking off bandages was added, forcing him to apply more as the match progressed. It became even more complicated when I factored in light seeping through cracks in the partially broken bandages which would technically damage him and so on and so on etc. And oh god that's only two moves in and I have no idea whether that's balanced or not. One issue leads to another which leads to another, and eventually it's the question changes from "How do I balance this" to "Is it humanly possible to balance this?" We haven't even touched on KO methods yet, nor will we. Just remember when making your sets to not get too tied up in balancing the idea... there'll always be something that slips you up, so just have fun with it instead of worrying about the technical aspects.
And of course, Balance issues on their own aren't enough to condemn a set. Just take a look at Mewtwo and Negative Man, each of which broke the top 10. In the same contest. Each of them characterize an aspect of balance, over and underpowered, respectively, and milk it for all it's worth. Negative Man cries for an attack. Cries. Mewtwo is the overpowered god he was meant to be, with massive range and damage potential. Not despite, but because each of these sets had balance issues, they managed to place 7th and 10th in a period of heated competition.
CHARACTER
This can be attributed to a single reason: they were both very in-character. Character a an idea has been getting a lot more attention lately, pushed forward by Junahu, Plorf, and Katapultar... yeah, not exactly the most credible supporters (Junahu excepted) but what are ya gonna do. However, they do have a solid point... over the years, MYM has become increasingly focused on the ideas of a moveset, and less concerned with the characters the set was made for in the first place.
Easily the most controversial of any of MYM's movements to this date, the Character movement has spawned more discussion than all the prior movements combined. Sandshrew, Jecht, the Great Depression, Movesets of the Past #6, hours upon hours in the chat dedicated to the subject... and somehow we STILL haven't come to an agreement. Arguably, the proponents of in-smash have been rather ineffective at getting their main points across. Instead of producing in-character sets that manage to have interesting playstyles, which is what we had been doing throughout most of MYM 4-6 anyhow, movesets like Sandshrew were made, throwing Playstyle completely out the window in favor of expressing a character's, um, character. While Sandshrew has fallen entirely out of favor within the main MYMing crowd, a closer look will reveal the lesson Plorf was trying to get across all along: Playstyle without Character is just as bad as Character without Playstyle.
Yes, I said it. If we lose sight of this very simple fact, then we have failed as a community. The thing is, everyone in MYM already knows this. You can't tell me that Warlord, the main person to argue against Character's importance, isn't fully aware of how important it is. Just take a look at his own Top 13 OOC movesets, or heck, any of his own sets. With few exceptions, most of them his more recent ones (Hannibean, Gamegeroge) they have all been entirely in character, breaking the boundaries of Smash to allow for them to be as true to the source material as possible. Ludicolo, Lunge, and especially Spy all point towards a deep understanding of the importance of Character... and let's not forget that this is the guy who brought us MYM Survivor.
SMASHNESS
So, why the countless arguments? Well, there's a rather common misconception about in-character sets... in that they're inherently tied to boring, Sakurai sets that you can just throw out any attack towards the opponent at any given time and still win. Because that's what every character in every video game ever does, right?
Well, no. In fact, since we're getting most of our crazy ideas FROM games, one would assume that those same crazy ideas are IN games, right? There are plenty, by which I mean thousands, of untapped characters with incredible moveset potential... and could still remain entirely in character! My feeling is that this is all residual from the age of mid MYM 6, the Punch-Out!! movement, and the beginning of the in-smash movement... accompanied by the unsmash movement and the crazy time of MYM 7.
Where to begin? A good example of the insmash movement can be found in KRool's sets during that time, especially the dreaded duo of The Elves and caterpie, both excursions into the untamed lands of Organization and Smashness. And above all, hated by virtually everyone.
Granted. You will wish to not be gay and it will get UNGRANTED! GET *****! jk
I wish Final Round XII wasnt so off the chain.
I wish Final Round XII wasnt so off the chain.
The Dinkoman
Smash Lord
Granted, they built a chain to put it on.
I wish I was epic.
I wish I was epic.
A1lion835
Smash Champion
Granted. Epic fail.
I wish for a fish that is not a wish.
I wish for a fish that is not a wish.
RazeveX
Smash Ace
Granted, you get a fish (that's bad enough).
I wish for a better wish than that fish.
I wish for a better wish than that fish.
Granted. Your forum games live!
I wish people would come up with some questions for "one of these things is not like the others".
I wish people would come up with some questions for "one of these things is not like the others".
The Dinkoman
Smash Lord
Granted, but their lame.
I wish for my blog to be unclosed.
Dogy those questions you post are seriously to good. Nobody can out do you in "One of these is not like the others."
I wish for my blog to be unclosed.
... my bad. XD I just want some for me to do, but yeah, people have been telling me I think of off-the-wall-stuff.
__
Not Granted, but I'll look into it to see what happened with it.
I wish I had a new game to play.
__
Not Granted, but I'll look into it to see what happened with it.
I wish I had a new game to play.
Frown
poekmon
Granted, here is your nettle bath.
I wish for everything that's good.
I wish for everything that's good.
The Dinkoman
Smash Lord
Granted, but since everyone on this un-worldly planet has done something bad this place becomes desolate.
I wish for pie and money
I wish for pie and money
granted. You'll get 2 month old staple pie and monopoly money.
i wish I was done with my laundry.
i wish I was done with my laundry.
The Dinkoman
Smash Lord
Granted, its done, it explodes, etc.
I wish for more monopoly money.
I wish for more monopoly money.
Wenbobular
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 26, 2006
- Messages
- 5,744
It turns into real money and you're killed by someone jealous.
I wish Starcraft 2 wouldn't ruin the Starcraft pro scene as I'm fearing it might.
I wish Starcraft 2 wouldn't ruin the Starcraft pro scene as I'm fearing it might.
Drakar
Smash Cadet
granted but... it does
I wish Pc's didn't suck...
I wish Pc's didn't suck...
Granted. Still gunna blue screen you to death.
I wish there was something interesting on tv right now.
I wish there was something interesting on tv right now.
RazeveX
Smash Ace
Granted, a special screening of 2 girls, 1 cup is airing on all channels in HD.
It interests you; you can't turn away.
I wish it was opposite day.
It interests you; you can't turn away.
I wish it was opposite day.
- Status