Will there ever be major, non-canon mechanics added to Brawl+?

[MaRRoK]

my two cents:
I have an idea of adding a clash when 2 side smashes collide. (like in star wars when they have their lightsabers crossed and they try to over power the opponent. also appeared at the end of twilight princess). you know when 2 normal moves colide theres that bubble then you both get on with ur life. when 2 smashes colide, theres a unique sound and players quickly tap A faster then their opponent. the winner gets his moves pulled off. this would happen over the course of 1 second btw. This would be very interesting, especially sense each character's timing for smashes is unique so it goes back to skill with the unique character.
(for clarification, when i say smash i dont mean B move, I mean C stick/ charged A move)

also (and less seriously), how about adding new moves? in melee we got sideBs. i say this time around we give everyone an A+B move. these moves would be VERY character specific. very easy to do through PSA or even trhough coding (not sure how coding works but if its anything like PSA which im assuming it is) add an "if" box on the begining of any B attack where if A press, go to a certain subaction. there are plenty of subactions which are unused by all characters so that wouldnt be an issue. these moves would have to fit in with the rest of the game, be thematic to the character, and extreamly origonal looking.

btw if/when the model replacements ever happen, there will be enough of a difference to not require this. trust me

 

[kupo15]

Here is an AT. Walljumping after your up b like Melee Mario. But it has to be really hard to do.

 

[camelot]

How was it done in Melee?

My guess is that there was a certain frame window where you could do it. If that was the case, was it at the very beginning of the up-b, or the end?

 

[kupo15]

The endish of the up b. Like the frame after the peak of Mario's up b or something like that

 

[Big-Cat]

Smash canceling just sounds.... unnecessary... I mean... really?

Smash attacks are meaty attacks that have that sort of ending lag for a reason. You should be committed to a smash when you use it. You don't spam smashes knowing if you're in a position to be punished... you'd have a safe way of getting out of it. Some characters can live without a single smash attack... so they can live without this. Heck, what this does is make some of the better and safe smashes even more better and safe.

I'm not a Brawl+ player, or even a Brawl player anymore, but I'd like to bring up something.

How would you feel if you could fake select specials? For example, I have Samus' Charge Beam with it fully charged. I then get ready to fire, but I'm aware that my opponent will just sidestep it. So, expecting that, I cancel the attack, with the charge intact, by quickly pressing B just as she aims. Thus, my opponent tries to counter, but I hit him on the recovery lag.

 

[masamunecyrus]

One thing I saw and both my friends and I all agreed should be a game mechanic is employed in the Zero PSA project. When you Forward+A smash attack, it slashes, but when you unleash a fully charged smash, Zero uses a different move.

I think that the concept of many or perhaps all smash attacks doing something, anything other than just being more powerful when fully charged would give Brawl+ something that is not only different from Brawl and Melee, but it would give it something that is better.

 

[FB Dj_Iskascribble]

I think air dashing would be SWEET
just make it take your second jump, and make it go a certain distance depending on the character (chars with multi jumps maybe shouldnt get good ones since they get so many jumps) It would help with bad recoveries, extend combos and other sweet stuff

 

[Kei_Takaro]

You should have to mash the shield buttons to stay up in water.

=3

my two cents:
I have an idea of adding a clash when 2 side smashes collide. (like in star wars when they have their lightsabers crossed and they try to over power the opponent. also appeared at the end of twilight princess). you know when 2 normal moves colide theres that bubble then you both get on with ur life. when 2 smashes colide, theres a unique sound and players quickly tap A faster then their opponent. the winner gets his moves pulled off. this would happen over the course of 1 second btw. This would be very interesting, especially sense each character's timing for smashes is unique so it goes back to skill with the unique character.
(for clarification, when i say smash i dont mean B move, I mean C stick/ charged A move)

LIEK!!!
Anyone with me? =D


Also look at 0:13 of this video :3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2XjwbO9U74&feature=related

 

[Dantarion]

Kei, no one is gonna implement that.

 

[Azurie]

You said you want something new to diversify this from Brawl and Melee, but I think something that gives the ground options of wavedashing would be good. I would just say to work on the wavedash code, but apparently nobody wants wavedashing. So maybe something else, that requires a quick button input, to dash a short distance and use any ground move out of it. Maybe something like side-B for Zero, but a much shorter dash.

 

[BEES]

Bursting is a defensive option I'd like to consider. Not as powerful as it is in some games, but a decent air alternative to teching.

Press Z during a tumble
-your character loses momentum and knocks your opponent away if they're attacking.
-it wouldn't cancel hitstun like some games, but many 'combos' in the game are linked by tumble frames, not hitstun, and those would be interruptible with this.
-after using it, you can attack but you have no jumps. There is a decent amount of lag as you fall to the stage for a perceptive opponent to punish, canceled by landing. It would be possible to initiate a combo close to the stage with this and reverse the momentum.

 

[Seikishidan Soru]

Bursting is a defensive option I'd like to consider. Not as powerful as it is in some games, but a decent air alternative to teching.

Press Z during a tumble
-your character loses momentum and knocks your opponent away if they're attacking.
-it wouldn't cancel hitstun like some games, but many 'combos' in the game are linked by tumble frames, not hitstun, and those would be interruptible with this.
-after using it, you can attack but you have no jumps. There is a decent amount of lag as you fall to the stage for a perceptive opponent to punish, canceled by landing. It would be possible to initiate a combo close to the stage with this and reverse the momentum.

I was hoping someone else would suggest bursting, I thought I would have been alone on this one so I didn't do it myself lol.

 

[Sterowent]

would you be able to burst only once?
(assumption)
would you be able to burst again if you got hit?

i don't like this idea. juggling is a great aspect of smash games, made especially difficult in brawl and is just seeing a bit more possibilities in b+ in cape's set. giving the one juggled Another option, on top of jumping, airdodging (after left/right if tumble), and attacking, seems like overkill. maybe if you couldn't do it during tumble...

the idea that it takes away your jump is a good start, at least. and it could be developed on a character by character basis to make chars with aerial priorities below have a lesser 'burst'.

however, there's also the fact that this could easily be used as a windbox edgeguard (assuming this is what it'll be). bursting would effectively give every character a gimp move (no sideB for you...everyone).

 

[leafgreen386]

Platform drops (only available in Cape's set and ssb64). You shield and press down to drop through platforms without sidestepping. We can make it specific; instead of pressing shield + down since everyone basically uses that for sidestepping.. we can use shield + cstick-down.

There's a lot more in this thread I'd like to reply to, but for now, I'd just like to say that this exists in both melee and brawl, although it's not easy to do. It's done by rotating your control stick into the tilt down position, which will cause you to fall through without sidestepping. Try dashing on a platform, shielding to stop your movement, then instantly drop through. It's handy. After practicing it some, you can become very consistent with it, but you're gonna need to actually... practice it.

 

[BEES]

I think if the attack is only possible during tumble frames, that won't be a problem. Remember, normally pressing Z would be a grab, a zair or an airdodge.

There's no burst gage, so I'm a bit unsure how this could be fairly implemented.

I only think it should be implemented if true combos that kept the opponent in hitstun were lengthened. For instance, using the conditional IASA frames and smash canceling codes mentioned earlier you could get 6+ hit true combos, but your margin of error is slim. If you're slightly slow with anything - burst to the face. Inevitably this is what would happen as you try to add more and more hits to the combo. Statistically you're more likely to mess up towards the end.

Still not sure if this is workable though.

 

[phantomphungus]

As a rule, when you make a project as popular as Brawl+, you have to figure out a way to please as many people as possible. As another rule, the more people you try to please at once, the more conservative you have to be when it comes to making major, revolutionary changes - in other words, you can't make them.

If I were to suggest a mechanic that would do great in Brawl+, I would say... RAGE COMBO!!! (Boosting attack damage with consecutive hits). Why? Because it gives players even more of a reward for pulling off combos (which is one of the hallmarks of Brawl+), and it IS new.

But I don't think it'll happen, because any major change to an established system is likely to have as many dissenters as it has supporters. It's just the way the world works.

After playing Dark Beast Ganon, I fully support the addition of Rage Combo. I think we should start a petition, you and I.

 

[Deleted member]

1234567890

 

[G Sus117]

How about directional air dodging for short hops and air grabbing?

 

[Alphatron]

Bursting should put you in freefall after using it and should have a visual effect to show that its available to you.

 

[Alondite]

I personally really like the idea of rolling off a ledge. It could be used offensively and defensively. Rolling into a ledge is currently a pretty bad move because you stop at the ledge so it is ridiculously easy to chase. Now say you roll off of the ledge you have a defensive option there, at the same time you could come right back and punish whoever is chasing.

A universal defensive technique, like a shield pulse (by pressing both shield buttons?) I think would be a good idea. Very, very small frame window in which it actually works (and possibly some sort of negative consequence aside from just getting punished), and when it does it stuns your opponent for a quick second while leaving you with no lag so you can punish, if you fail you take the hit. It should be usable in the air I think too, maybe send the opponent into tumble? That could potentially be broken off stage, but how about if you fail and get hit you go into tumble or helpless fall or something to balance it?

I think techjumping is viable and a great idea if it's balanced. Make it only the height of a short hop with limited horizontal movement and some lag frames before you can take another action so that it's still punishable if done poorly or in the wrong situation.

 

[BEES]

Hi, BEES, long time no see.

Let's say you play Brawl+, and not Melee or Brawl. 2 new global ATs are discovered in Melee/Brawl. Do you switch just because of this?

Do you really think that's what it is? If so, regardless of how many ATs are added, you'll never like it more than Melee.

I play 64/Melee/Brawl+, so switching between those is irrelevant. It would take an awful lot to get me to play one of them over the others. I suspect any universal AT discovered in Brawl would also be in Brawl+, but assuming it changes the gameplay enough in Brawl I actually would consider switching.

If we discovered that with a simple but unknown technique Brawl became fast, fun, and more offense-based, that would change a lot.

As for that second part, I realize after my OP it might seem hard to believe this, but I actually do like Brawl+ more than Melee, and I think it's been better for some time now.

 

[Hyesz]

I really like Alondite's ideas.

 

[mountain_tiger]

I've got a good change that might work.

Chargeable pummels.

Here's how it'd work. You can charge a pummel for up to two seconds (just like a smash attack) to cause more damage, up to 250% of the normal amount caused. However, charged pummels can be avoided by the opponent 'swaying' backwards at the right time, and this gives them a tiny frame window to reverse the grab by pressing Z. Also, if someone is hit by a fully charged pummel, then they get stunned as if their shield broke.

What do you think?

 

[Falcon88]

I've got a good change that might work.

Chargeable pummels.

Here's how it'd work. You can charge a pummel for up to two seconds (just like a smash attack) to cause more damage, up to 250% of the normal amount caused. However, charged pummels can be avoided by the opponent 'swaying' backwards at the right time, and this gives them a tiny frame window to reverse the grab by pressing Z. Also, if someone is hit by a fully charged pummel, then they get stunned as if their shield broke.

What do you think?

Cool, but I doubt I would ever use such a technique in a fight. How would you implement the swaying backwards, anyhow?

Now, if fully charged Smashes automatically stunned, I think that would be cool.

And, I still think IASA frames on ground attacks upon successful hit is a good idea.

 

[Deleted member]

1234567890

 

[BEES]

Fair enough, I would still be willing to switch over it though.

 

[Dan_X]

There is no way that any AT that has gone missed til now would ever make Brawl a good game. Even if it was a nice AT there is no way for it to singlehandedly rectify all of Brawl's misfortunes.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Hmm...
How about Nudging/Shoving/Pushing.
Pretty much you walk up to someone and press Shield in the right frames and it would shove them over/stun them/etc...

It could only work while walking, to actually give it a use (seriously, who walks?).

 

[Turbo Ether]

Smash canceling and reflecting projectiles via Perfect Shielding sounds perfectly legit to me.

A note to everyone in this thread: A technique needs to be applicable to gameplay without overly interfering with established playstyles. It should add depth to the game without centralizing play. It should be subtle, not obstructive.

I agree with this.

I have a few ideas: Counter Hits, Universal Shield Breakers, and Positional Damage Bonus.

Counter Hit(CH): A staple mechanic in many fighting game series. Counter Hit is generally a mechanic that rewards you for interrupting an opponents attack with an attack of your own, usually resulting in more damage, hit stun, knockdown etc. In Smash, landing a CH could simply result in more damage, hitstun, knockback or even special affects, like causing the Flower on head status.

Universal Shield Breaker(USB): Simply give every character one move that causes substantial shield damage, like Marth's neutral B and DK's SideB. Obviously, attach this mechanic to moves that aren't too easy to hit with. Would really increase shield pressure options for a lot characters.

Positional Damage Bonus{PDB): This mechanic exists in games, like, Soul Calibur. It rewards you for outmaneuvering your opponent and attacking from behind. Attacking someone from behind, basically results in a free CH. CH and PDB stack, so CHing someone from behind is the most rewarding possible way to hit with a move.

 

[twiblets]

Like the USB idea - I do think that shield pressure should be buffed. Rolling off edges is interesting as well

 

[Sterowent]

i second that. shield pressure is already pretty interesting, what with pokes and the shieldstun involved again, but shieldbreaks, which admittedly should be pretty rare, are all but nonexistent.

i do especially like the idea of attacking from behind to gain something. now, immediately, i thought of bair camping when you mentioned it. many bair attacks were made to be especially useful, which was addressed even more for brawl: G&W's, squirtle's (doesn't have the fair speed now), the mario bros, falco's (no doubt), snake's (esp with less lag now), sonic's, the list goes on forever. while smash is different in how positioning is done, i like this idea of approaches from behind for the sake of how good RARing with bairs are now.

i'm a little worried, though, about how it'd be implemented. smash has always rewarded good spacing and positioning, not with special buffs or such but with the inherent advantages their positioning creates. i think we should focus more on how to effectively transverse the stages before making special universal conditions between characters.

also, teams. that would be ****ty for teams, i think. (2v1 = impossible)

 

[Slashy]

Ceiling clinging as seen in Dream Mix TV.

Check 2:07 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OlFC4D3cq8

 

[Falcon88]

Ceiling clinging as seen in Dream Mix TV.

Check 2:07 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OlFC4D3cq8

This would be pretty boss.

 

[BEES]

There is no way that any AT that has gone missed til now would ever make Brawl a good game. Even if it was a nice AT there is no way for it to singlehandedly rectify all of Brawl's misfortunes.

You never know. Maybe pressing the d-pad in the right order unlocks fun-speed mode, where all your moves are faster and have different knockback, and you're immune to tripping.

Then again, maybe pressing the d-pad in the right order will make monkeys fly out of my...

 

[Alondite]

I really like the idea of counter hits. They are a staple of most fighters, and I think they would add another level of depth. Think about the thought process: "Do I counter hit this smash for extra damage, risk getting hit (which, if done while you were attacking, would mean that -you- are the one getting counter hit by the slow powerful attack you were trying to counter...ouch) or do I just shield? I think that is a very viable idea.

As for positional damage bonuses...I'm not too sure. I don't really know if that would add enough depth to the game to be worth implementing.

As for Rage Combos...I really don't think so. Positive feedback in a fighting game is generally bad. You get a -bonus- for comboing aside from tons of damage? That is bad game design and would break combo-heavy characters.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Another thing you could do with Counter Hits, is make it so that Counter Hitting with certain attacks will always trip the enemy. Imo, this is more skill intensive than potentially having attacks that always trip and more consistent and more balanced than having attacks that randomly trip. Certain characters Dtilts would obviously be the best candidates for this mechanic.

Also, I was wondering if it would be possible to implement a combo counter into the VS mode. It already exists in the in the training mode, so would it be exportable? It would have zero effect on the actual gameplay, but it would be cool to have a combo counter pop up after you combo someone.

 

[Sterowent]

counter hits sound like they'd polarize the risk ratios of things more than they already are. it would encourage players to camp. it would also make disjointed hitboxes better, thus making characters already difficult to balance even more so.

i still think we shouldn't be focused on character attributes and more on movement techniques. smash is, on the surface, incredibly basic. it's supposed to be. there's only one hidden 'debuff' and that's when charging smash attacks. the main thing in smash is carrying your opponent with your attacks by however means necessary and not in a way that has to be explained to anyone familiar with movesets and movement. what you see is what you get. and that's why it's so impressive.

you see, people perceive movement on a basic level; it's a requirement to all things. they consider it more than anything the most universal Medium. they also label the time it takes for things to happen, especially when spectators. so, the idea of making movement able to be more efficient of a process based on skill and technique is impressive to any onlooker, especially when they compare movement without the techniques.

but, why not alter characters, though? what's so different between altering movement and altering character's options directly? another truth about people is that, once something becomes specialized, they will scrutinize that something. they will evaluate it and label it as such and such. the actual moves characters use are these specialized things, specialized Actions. Actions, then, are perceived differently than Mediums. they're already wrapped up in a stigma of being something a Character can do rather than something a Player does: one is something players are perceived to control directly, and the other is something a player is perceived to have given to him. this is less impressive, and it's how many things are viewed (though there are exceptions, such as marth's tipper and hitting with weak hitboxes for follow-ups).

whether the audience is correct in their assumptions or not, whether the players are or not, this is what, on the most basic level, sets the tempo for the game, too. using this medium of movement rather than Actions to battle more than anywhere else is what makes smash so good. it's what keeps your mind in the game since that's what you're fighting with much more than with what your character supplies (until someone lands a hit, and even then it plays a big role).

movement techniques would only add to this respect. the audience sees a character move, as does the opponent. the player uses a technique to optimize his speed and add to the sense of tension and spontaneity. it's easy to understand for the onlooker; it's clear that this movement plays a big part in a battle below the surface of simply hitting one guy and then again and again and...

developing techniques apart from characters and with much more to do with mobility seem like the much better approach to smash. a lot of fighters leave the game to be much more about what happens when both characters collide: smash is different. smash is movement-intensive.
the movesets of characters, the button inputs for their attacks, are simple and quick to the response.

because smash is not about Actions. it's about where you are when you Land them.

 

[[TSON]]

Counter hits would suck.

 

[Turbo Ether]

As far as movement goes Wavedashing was an interesting mechanic. However, the guys in charge of Brawl+ made it apparent that they did not want Wavedashing present in the game for whatever reason.

 

[twiblets]

yeah buffed movement would be great. its so much better to buff comboing and shield pressure this way than just bumping up the stun. i think air dashing and rolling off edges might help this. its good that the backroom are increasing the jump speed.
also earlier someone said that rewarding combos wouldn't work because combo heavy characters would be broken. well if it was done by damage inflicted by a single combo, and tweaked for individual characters it could be fair across the board. rack up a certain amount of damage in a combo, your character glows blue and you get the chance to land a strong combo finisher. It could be made hard enough that it only occurred now and then, like a shield break - I think it would make watching matches more exciting. A long combo starts and the spectators start wondering if the finisher will be reached and landed.