Will Project M replace The real Melee?

[Foy]

Certain mechanics and physics feel weird, but by and large the only complaint is the loss of fluidity, or at least, the inability to replicate the fluidity that was commonplace in melee. I don't doubt that with time and some fine tuning that it could eventually get there. The other complaint is the overall brightness and contrast of certain animations tend to occasionally cause you to lose track of where you are or what is really happening.

That being said, Falco is amazing in his current version. His up+b is still awful *** though. Is everyone smaller in the game? There definitely feels like an overall change in everyones character size.

 

[Sraigux]

My problem with it, is the developers can balance characters and change stuff, getting to know the game as well as brawl or melee would be a problem, because it would be always changing. I'm not a fan of the idea of "balancing" characters either, it changes too much.

I have not played P:M yet, so I cannot come to a final conclusion. But seeing as how much I love melee, I'm not sure if it will be able to compete. (despite my love for melee, when I try P:M, I will do my best to give it an unbiased review)

Edit: Also, if anything. It may bring more new people to the melee scene. Due to brawl's perceived "better" graphics.

 

[❀W.E.M.P.❀]

a cube, and melee is way cheaper than a wii and brawl.

Also whenever I watch it, it feels so angular and slow.


Given it looks fun and interesting.

But melee can't be replaced.

 

[KirbyKaze]

 

[Lovage]

feels good at first then you notice all the wrong things with it the more you play it

been a while since i played so maybe it got better, when i was playing it they were still pretty far off

brawl ppl will probably love it though

 

[Shadic]

My problem with it, is the developers can balance characters and change stuff, getting to know the game as well as brawl or melee would be a problem, because it would be always changing. I'm not a fan of the idea of "balancing" characters either, it changes too much.

I have not played P:M yet, so I cannot come to a final conclusion....

Balancing was done with the basis of almost a decade of Melee results, so it's not like we were randomly changing things as we went. Play one of the Melee low tiers in Project M, I don't think you'll have too many balance qualms.

As for balance, we're not going to constantly balance the game and micro-manage the metagame with constant patches. I'd be surprised if there were even five total public releases of the game. (This is including the demo and the eventual "gold" release.)

 

[Plum]

There's a common joke in the Project M thread in the Smash Workshop that the answer to why anything feels wrong in the game is landing detection.
Kind of funny that every single complaint I've seen in this thread regarding things that still feel off stem from landing detection :V

Granted the game does have a few select issues outside of landing detection (the way DI works in Brawl and ledge occupancy during rolls come to mind), it is the primary problem holding the game back from truly feeling like Melee.
L Canceling feeling off? Landing detection changes the timing required.
Wavedashing/Wavelanding feeling off? Landing detection changes the timing required.
Physics feel different? Landing detection.

 

[JesiahTEG]

Dude, the reason why Project M is so weird is because it's like a hybrid of Melee and Brawl. Brawl graphics make you think that some Brawl physics still apply. Like, I'm recovering with Marth planning on autosweetspotting using his up B, but then I don't auto sweetspot.

It's like, you're looking at Brawl but playing 80% melee...It's confusing as **** lol but i appreciate the work the people put into it for sure.

 

[Mew2King]

you're stupid and should feel bad for making this thread

 

[Cactuar]

I feel it would be better to market this to Brawl players than Melee players. Melee players are, for the most part, very content with Melee. We LOVE the game. This can be demonstrated by the majority of the hacking in Melee being done to models, stages, and music, NOT the actual mechanics or characters.

Be aware that, at the core of your concept, you are still trying to turn the base game of Brawl into something resembling Melee. Why would Melee players want to play something resembling Melee when we have what we want already?


That aside: I admire your dedication to creating something that you will love in your own right. It will be as perfect as you want it to be as long as you keep that motivation and a lack of bias towards balance. Keep at it.

 

[Euclid]

Dude, the reason why Project M is so weird is because it's like a hybrid of Melee and Brawl. Brawl graphics make you think that some Brawl physics still apply. Like, I'm recovering with Marth planning on autosweetspotting using his up B, but then I don't auto sweetspot.

It's like, you're looking at Brawl but playing 80% melee...It's confusing as **** lol but i appreciate the work the people put into it for sure.

^ Exactly this. And P:M won't replace Melee. It's too different.

 

[nube]

The effort alone that was put into this should be applauded before any criticism is even given. A year's worth of development? Come on. I've dabbled (hehe) a bit in hacking, and I think Melee's (primitive) hacks are complicated. Now consider that Melee hacks are ages behind Brawl hacks..good stuff.

Man, if Melee hacks had the kind of support and manpower behind it that Brawl hacks does...wow. I mean, we have small stuff. Little Batman ears to go with Batman-textured Captain Falcon, decent stage mods, audio hacks. Nothing on the scale of this though, at the moment.

 

[LatexRhombus]

i feel like all the time people spent hacking brawl, they would have been better off just to play melee, or do any of an infinite number of other activities...it's way too much work for how small a reward it offers...

no offense to the people who spent time on it, just my 2 cents

 

[linkoninja]

Project M is still a demo, meaning it's not even done yet. I think the developers just released it so people would stop complaining about when the whole thing is coming out. That being said, with more characters, stages, and an overall higher level diversity in gameplay Project M I believe has the ability to replace the actual Melee. There are more characters, and with the balance the developers tried to implement into the game it makes lower tier characters have more of a chance to do well. Melee is balanced and we've seen that low tiers can do well (Eddie Mexico with Luigi, Axe's Pikachu, etc) but I think Project M will really bring out the maximum potential in every character with the modifications they make to them.

 

[shanus]

The project m team has stated multiple times we aren't out to replace melee:

Regarding competition for Melee and Brawl - We don’t aim to be a replacement of Melee or Brawl, but a complement. We’ve had countless melee players who constantly play both PM and Melee, because they love aspects of both. There will surely be purists out there for both Brawl and Melee, but we ask them to be optimistic to try this out because there is a ton of great new content available for them to enjoy.

This is a refreshing spin to the Smash Brothers Series where we offer updated, or even entirely new, balanced character metagames, new stages (throwback such as Fountain of Dreams, Yoshi’s Story, and entirely new content), a completely overhauled engine, and much more.

As an example, many characters throughout the series have unfortunately been rated as “low tiers” where they aren’t truly viable in competitive or even friendly play. The project m team has a strong focus on making every character viable in our engine. A lot of these characters didn't need significant adjustments to make them viable, but some tweaks here and there to truthfully make them a force to be reckoned with. As an example, in melee, Bowser had a hard time cutting through those fast, combo oriented characters such as Falco, Fox, or Falcon. We rectified this in Project M by keeping Bowser as the slow powerhouse he is meant to be, and took a page from how Capcom dealt with heavy characters and gave him tight armor windows on several of his attacks to help him get through heavy projectile spam and faster characters. While on paper it may seem foreign to hardcore melee players, many playtesters have found bowser to be very enjoyable.

You will find a lot of changes like this in Project M, some more pronounced than others. While Bowser’s changes are subtle, other characters such as Snake received significant overhauls to their movements to better suit the fast-paced gameplay. Snake’s brawl metagame relied largely on camping with his disjointed upwards kick and hiding with his shield with grenades. We didn't want him to just sit back and camp all day; we wanted him to have depth and trickiness where he can place C4 on opponents in a combo while controlling the stage with grenades, mines, and more. While this was a lot of work, it made for an incredible product and one of the most fun characters in a game I've ever played.

This is the goal we had in mind. It plays just like melee, but offers a refreshing spin. You can play both, and enjoy both (remember: most of the PM members still play and love melee!). Why people have it in their mind that its one or the other is beyond me.


I hope this addresses some of your points, Cactuar.

 

[Slashy]

The project m team has stated multiple times we aren't out to replace melee:




This is the goal we had in mind. It plays just like melee, but offers a refreshing spin. You can play both, and enjoy both (remember: most of the PM members still play and love melee!). Why people have it in their mind that its one or the other is beyond me.


I hope this addresses some of your points, Cactuar.

Is P:M really going to be different enough from Melee to warrant it as being a side event?

 

[linkoninja]

Is P:M really going to be different enough from Melee to warrant it as being a side event?

I think Project M is very different from Melee. So much so that there will probably be whole tournaments just for this game. I see Project M as what Brawl should have been
I see Project M not as Melee 2.0, but as SSB4
as a whole new game entirely, different from 64, different from Melee, different from Brawl.
Sure it combines Brawl and Melee but it has whole new things implemented that aren't in Melee or Brawl
with new functions and metagames Project M is SSB4

 

[Cactuar]

I'm not out to attack P:M as I actually support it. I was just making an observation.

 

[JPOBS]

Be aware that, at the core of your concept, you are still trying to turn the base game of Brawl into something resembling Melee. Why would Melee players want to play something resembling Melee when we have what we want already?

This is exactly the point i was trying to make in my earlier posts, but I couldn't word it quite as elegantly.

 

[shanus]

I'm not out to attack P:M as I actually support it. I was just making an observation.

Oh I know, I was just responding to you in particular yours because its not really marketing to one target audience or the other, because I think it applies to both.

Technical melee players enjoy it, as can brawl players. Additionally, it expands the melee playerbase too. You can see a lot of videos of say, Thunderhorse (plays with Jcaesar) who hadn't played competitive melee ever. Watch his PM falco, its grown impressively in the past few months and can now play well in melee. This is why I think its funny when people seem to be like "just play melee" or "just play brawl" when it can bridge the gap and expand to all playerbases.

Anyways, I think this thread title should be changed.

 

[Mokumo]

the only thing i would ever want more from melee is more stages. that's it. and even then I'm totally okay with it.

i don't know if that contributes to the discussion or not. i mean i've played project M before, dilly daddled for maybe 15 minutes and i went right back to the melee tv to play some teams. maybe i'm just a hater.

but how could something that's fan made flat out replace melee? you can still pretty easily order a copy of the game online or something. project M is something that you have to already know about after joining either the melee or brawl community. not that the project is a bad idea in the first place, but i dont think it will ever be a replacement.

 

[musashi]

if the idea of project M was to replicate melee but add some new stuff wouldnt it have been easier to just hack melee :D

 

[Scufo]

Kinda surprised by the lukewarm reception in here. P:M isn't meant to replace Melee, but hearing talk of marketing P:M to Brawl players instead of Melee players? Come on, now.

if the idea of project M was to replicate melee but add some new stuff wouldnt it have been easier to just hack melee :D

Good luck getting Brawl characters and stages into Melee.

 

[Dark Sonic]

i don't know if that contributes to the discussion or not. i mean i've played project M before, dilly daddled for maybe 15 minutes and i went right back to the melee tv to play some teams. maybe i'm just a hater.

Whatever version you played is likely months old.

We actually made a pretty big breakthough on melee physics just days before releasing the demo (and Magus put everything in )

http://projectm.smashmods.com/

I encourage people to at least TRY the demo. It's ridiculously easy to install and it's a lot of fun. You don't have to "switch" from melee to project M, and nobody is asking that. But I see no reason that people can't play both.

 

[Theftz22]

The biggest obstacle is clearly the community.

So long as landing detection and DI get fixed we will have a game that's 95% melee plus way more characters, better balance, online, more viable stages, and better graphics.

The fact is that the community is so set that it won't put in the time to get used to that 5% that just makes it "feel" a tiny bit different in order to get all of those advantages. This is probably what's needed to grow the melee community and bring it into the next generation. If the community won't accept that it's ship has come, it's clear that there's no getting through to it.

 

[kupo15]

if the idea of project M was to replicate melee but add some new stuff wouldnt it have been easier to just hack melee :D

While true I believe that even hacking something as great as melee (balance/gameplay wise) it will still run into the same acceptance problems that PM has. People will also think less of a better, hacked melee.

 

[tera twin]

While true I believe that even hacking something as great as melee (balance/gameplay wise) it will still run into the same acceptance problems that PM has. People will also think less of a better, hacked melee.

not to mention melee is helluva lot harder to hack compared to brawl

 

[RuKeN]

I P:M can count with one thing

The creators be Smashers and can make o re-edit the game for make best than the old version

for this finally(with work) will can convert in the best game of smash

 

[abcool]

I honestly believe some ppl are just borderline obssessed with melee. Yeah, it's a great game and fluid at that, but seriously melee is not perfect and i can sure as hell say it's not appealing to newcomers unless you have some big events. I have been trying to grow a scene here from 06 and it's sad to see how ppl just give up on the game, simply because of the time it requires to get good at it. Atleast Project M has online play, the options to add melee textures; if you wanna feel more comfortable and all kinda other things. Physics can be fixed. Melee is like 10 yrs old and i know if it weren't for international tournaments, would it have all the hype it has now?

All amazing games need a sequel. Everyone saying melee this and that( Praising it) Answer these questions? Which of you didn't care when u heard the annoucement of Brawl? Who didn't follow the dojo? Who was mad when brawl wasn't melee 2.0? Exactly! Why were any of you hyped for brawl in the first place? You only praise melee because u thought there would be no other game like it. PMBR are working there *** off to make a dream come true and all i see is negative comments..not all now, but a few. Makes me wonder if ppl look at me this way when i speak of melee so highly?

 

[Roneblaster]

this is why no1 was excited.

i know KK foresaw this but didnt mention, but i too saw this one.

we knew this thread was going to be made, we knew pointless conversations would insue,we knew butt-hurt developers would come in here defending they're UNFINISHED product. we knew strong_bad would try to sound intelligent but fail because hes only 12 years old.


all has been foreseen by the great KK.

 

[Sraigux]

I should try installing P:M today

All amazing games need a sequel.

Halo 2 didn't need a sequel. (even though it was a sequel itself)

Im sure call of poopy didn't need 50 sequels, nor medal of honour.

Fable sure as hell didn't need a sequel

If a game is amazing, sequels usually don't cut it because you need to do even better than the first.

Balancing was done with the basis of almost a decade of Melee results, so it's not like we were randomly changing things as we went. Play one of the Melee low tiers in Project M, I don't think you'll have too many balance qualms.

As for balance, we're not going to constantly balance the game and micro-manage the metagame with constant patches. I'd be surprised if there were even five total public releases of the game. (This is including the demo and the eventual "gold" release.)

That's a relief

Why would Melee players want to play something resembling Melee when we have what we want already?

+rep

 

[abcool]

I should try installing P:M today


Halo 2 didn't need a sequel. (even though it was a sequel itself)

Im sure call of poopy didn't need 50 sequels, nor medal of honour.

Fable sure as hell didn't need a sequel

If a game is amazing, sequels usually don't cut it because you need to do even better than the first.


That's a relief



+rep

Super smash bros 64 needed one and the thing about nintendo is they bring out a new smash once every console. I find it quite fitting to see another smash game. Or else ppl would make noise.

 

[Strong Badam]

There's no need to defend our game for us, guys. People interested will download & play the demo, the haters will hate, and all will be good with the world.

 

[CableCho57]

were any of the original developers serious melee players?

 

[Krautrock]

The epic disappointment that was Brawl prompted many Melee players to react by becoming laughably conservative and overzealous in defense of Melee's supposed perfection. Don't get me wrong - Melee is my favorite game of all time. But it's not impossible to produce a better one.

If landing detection, DI, and a couple other minor issues are fixed, P:M will be a better game than Melee (gasp!). The only possible counterargument is a preference for Melee aesthetics, but that hardly stacks up to the plethora of new stages and newly viable characters.

Essentially, if P:M was what Nintendo had officially released back in 2008, the entire community would have moved on to it and Melee would be dead. (I still think that would be true even if landing detection and DI weren't fixed.) We'd have a much larger and more vibrant tournament scene to boot.

As things stand, P:M can't possibly "replace" Melee due to its status as an unofficial hack and the reticence by much of the Melee community to accept it.

But there's no reason not to at least play both.

(Admittedly, this post is probably only going to inflame attitudes further, and "butthurt" diehards may end up refusing to play P:M simply due to the perceived competition between the two games. But whatever - that's their loss.)

edited to be less mean

 

[Sraigux]

I just tried it. It's actually pretty fun. Does it replace melee in any way? No. But its one of those games you can play with your non-hardcore friends. Its also a fun change; one of those things to play later in a smashfest.

Some things to note. Gaw is way better. He has a bigger sheild and he can L-cancel his bair. Everything feels a little more floaty. I can consistently double fair with marth, whereas I could never in melee. Sheik's d-throw feels funny.

 

[abcool]

I just tried it. It's actually pretty fun. Does it replace melee in any way? No. But its one of those games you can play with your non-hardcore friends. Its also a fun change; one of those things to play later in a smashfest.

Some things to note. Gaw is way better. He has a bigger sheild and he can L-cancel his bair. Everything feels a little more floaty. I can consistently double fair with marth, whereas I could never in melee. Sheik's d-throw feels funny.

Sheik's Dthrow was changed to her pal version to not be soo broken on characters that are floaty like link..atleast allow some opportunity to di away. Whatever landing issues u have is due to landing detection and brawl weird DI(Which have not been fixed) Remember the game has some good ways to go. They released the demo to display the potential of the game thus far. Throws,ledge stuff, Di and other little things needs to be tweaked a bit more.

Edit: I see so brawl's Di is the reason huh?! Aight, i only remember an old conversation you guys had about changing it to pal because the ntsc was to broken, but true, true. What he said.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Sheik's Dthrow was changed to her pal version to not be soo broken on characters that are floaty like link..atleast allow some opportunity to di away.

Not true. Sheik's d-throw has exact melee stats, ripped directly from her files in melee (as do all the melee top tiers, bar Marth who's bone placements are weird on some animations and had to be compensated for manually).


The issue is that DI in brawl factors more strongly into trajectories than melee (melee allowed for an 18 degree change at max, while brawl allows for a 25 degree change). We have been unable to fix this and it's honestly one of the most notable differences (and landing detection)

Remember the game has some good ways to go. They released the demo to display the potential of the game thus far. Throws,ledge stuff, Di and other little things needs to be tweaked a bit more.

Yep. It's a demo because we wanted to give people a taste of what we've done so far, we still have a ways to go before it's complete.

 

[Magus420]

Sheik's d-throw in PM is no more DIable than it is in melee. DI is only stronger on stuff you'd DI diagonally. The d-throw is NTSC but with 65 growth from melee's 50. It's the same knockback at 0% and the same followups are possible from it, but it just scales a little quicker so a d-throw at 80 might act more like a d-throw at say 100 in melee.

 

[MK26]

you're stupid and should feel bad for making this thread

AHAHAHA

Why would Melee players want to play something resembling Melee when we have what we want already?

Stock answer:

Full answer:

In addition to those twelve: Ike, Lucario, R.O.B., Toon Link, and Wolf; half of Dr. Mario's moveset, half of Young Link's moveset, and at least one of Roy, Mewtwo, or Pichu; Bridge of Eldin, Castle Siege, Delfino Plaza, Distant Planet, Frigate Orpheon, Halberd, Lylat Cruise, Mario Circuit, Mushroomy Kingdom, New Pork City, Norfair, PictoChat, Pokémon Stadium 2, Port Town Aero Dive, Rumble Falls, Shadow Moses Island, Skyworld, Smashville, Summit, WarioWare, Yoshi's Island, 75m, FlatZone 2, Green Hill Zone, Hanenbow, Luigi's Mansion, Mario Bros., Pirate Ship, and Spear Pillar; Hyrule Temple 64, Metal Cavern 64, Dreamland 64, and Saffron City 64; Dash Attack Canceled Up Smash, Glide Tossing, new moves on old characters, game balance, 300+ full-length pieces of music, and the ability to hack the game to put everything from Melee into Brawl, gaining everything that made Melee great without losing anything that makes Brawl unique.