Why Marth Isn't Top Tier

[Aesir]

So any guy that uses Marth SOMETHIMES counts as a Marth player............ummmm.....

To Aesir: What about Azen my friend???????
Azen beat PC and Isai in tounaments....

Thats one.

now compare that to all the amazing fox players out there?

 

[UMBC Super Smasher]

Thats one.

now compare that to all the amazing fox players out there?

Seriously. How bout REDRAGON do some work and research the great marth and fox players. Then maybe he'll see the light.

REDRAGON, stop trying to argue that there are more great marth players than fox players without knowing what you're talking about. Instead, research it first cause you shouldn't have to ask us how many great fox players there are if you truly know what you're talking about.

 

[Deleted member]

There are tons of good space animals. Not alot of good Marths.

Just because more people like fox/falco doesn't make marth worse, if anything it makes him better cause he's good in those matches, much better than other chars.

I know that the PA/NJ fox/falco players don't play marth cause he's too gay for them. Except m2k, who doesn't think marth is gay at all, but fox vs marth is also his best match so he's kinda biased.

Pc told me he doesnt and also his recent playing in tournies show he doesnt use falco as much.

He also hasn't won a tournament with good competition since MLG Vegas, where he used falco.

FLt, pc chris (NO HE IS NOT A FALCO MAIN OK GET IT STRAIGHT HE ONLY USES FALCO VS MARTH AND SOMETIMES JUST FOR ****S AND GIGGLES), M2K, ken sometimes, KDJ, tink, forward, Chillin, Helios in europe, KM, cunningkitsune, off the top of my head im sure theres more.

FLT hasn't won anything lately, Forward hasn't won anything as fox, ken has only won 1 tournament as Fox (MLG atlanta, 2005, 1.5 years ago), KM uses 85% marth now, cunningkitsune hasn't won anything lately, helios never gets past 4th cause EK Amsah and CJ always place higher than him I haven't heard about tink winning anything lately, m2k uses fox to beat sheiks (Cataclysm 3 finals) and chillin has been doing well in VA/MD lately.

KM, M2K, Ken play marth over Fox for the most part.

Chillin, Chu Dat, Ken, Helios, Kaiser, Tink, Taj, Masashi, Bombsoldier, Isai, Azen, Zelgadis, KM, Jing, Rob$, just to name a few who win tournaments with fox.

Chu/bombsoldier/rob$ doesn't have a fox, kaiser hasn't won anything that I'm aware of, masashi and jing quit, azen plays marth/sheik, zelgadis hasn't won anything lately, isai plays falcon/sheik. Everyone else I already covered.

as for MLG: 2006
Meadowlands: PC Chris (Falco)
Dallas: Ken (Marth)
Anaheim: Ken (Marth)
Chicago: Ken (Marth)
Orlando: Azen (Marth)
New York: Azen (Marth)
Vegas: PC Chris (Falco)

How anyone can say that marth isn't top tier baffles me.

 

[Ryan-K]

Oh my bad mow

Still seems to be more fox players but then again I live in a wierd area oh well.

 

[mog87]

actually helios recently won a tournament as seen on the video section with falco/fox.

 

[Aesir]

the marths that are winning are Ken and azen what do you expect? >_>

 

[REDRAGON]

Nice work UmbreonMow!!!
I think that solves alot.

 

[Dark Sonic]

No it doesn't. It just says that the best players are winning with their main character who happens to be Marth. And if Marth had the advantage over the space animals then Ken wouldn't switch to fox to fight them because Marth would be a much better choice. Why would he use his secondary if there was any chance his main would give him a bigger advantage?

 

[Brightside6382]

as for MLG: 2006
Meadowlands: PC Chris (Falco)
Dallas: Ken (Marth)
Anaheim: Ken (Marth)
Chicago: Ken (Marth)
Orlando: Azen (Marth)
New York: Azen (Marth)
Vegas: PC Chris (Falco)

How anyone can say that marth isn't top tier baffles me.

**** Marth sure did win alot of those tournies, o wait a minute its the same two people. That speaks more for the individual players skills then anything else. Why are you only looking at the #1 placings anyways? Look at even top 20 for all of those events and I can assure you the ratio of Falco's/Fox's will be much higher then the ratio of Marth's.

Nice work UmbreonMow!!!
I think that solves alot.

That didn't solve ****. The only thing he proved was that Ken and Azen are good.

 

[REDRAGON]

Is it not strange that the best players(Ken and Azen) use Marth as there main??? Because their skill works best with Marth(who is the best)

This arguement is getting old........

 

[Aesir]

^

[19:10] Fallenpiratevyse: yeahh
[19:10] Fallenpiratevyse: LOL
[19:10] Lil: is it not strange that pc beats them with falco

lulz mirite?

 

[Ryan-K]

Is it not strange that the best players(Ken and Azen) use Marth as there main??? Because their skill works best with Marth(who is the best)

This arguement is getting old........

BUM wins tournaments in NYC as Donkey Kong, thus Donkey Kong is top tier no matter what, right?

 

[REDRAGON]

Is BUM the best in the world??? Nope. Is Ken the best in the world??? Yep. Who does he win most of his tounaments with??? Marth. Same for Azen...

On a side note: What about Kizzu and EK. They are amazing Marth players.

 

[Cactuar]

Just to put this out there. I am not impressed with Kizzu. He has decently cool videos. But as a player overall I find him very... average.

Edit: I figured the thread was already off-topic enough. YAY!

 

[TheManaLord]

Almost all good Marths look average. That's just how Marth is played.

 

[Zankoku]

Apparently data is a big thing for you, REDRAGON. So I compiled the top ten in each of the regional power rankings. Here they are.

Dutch
1. Amsah - Sheik
2. Remen - Fox
3. Kirby Squad - Doctor Mario
4. Ivo - Fox
5. Marc - Sheik
6. Nnja - Fox
7. Johnnyboy - Captain Falcon
8. Faab - Ganondorf
9. Beunhaas - Marth
10. Rens - Peach

Midwest
1. Dope - Falco
2. Tink - Fox/Falco
3. Darkrain - Captain Falcon
4. Drephen - Sheik
5. Vidjogamer - Peach
6. CunningKitsune - Fox
7. KishPrime - Jigglypuff/Falco
8. Bushman - Ganondorf
9. KishSquared - Fox/Sheik
9. Ignatius - Peach/Sheik
11. HoChiMinhTrail - Ice Climbers

North Atlantic
1. PC Chris - Falco/Fox
2. Azen - Marth/Sheik
3. ChuDat - Ice Climbers
4. KoreanDJ - Fox
5. Mew2King - Fox
6. Chillindude - Fox
7. KM - Fox/Marth/Falco
8. Neo - Roy/Marth
9. Wife - Peach
10. Bum - Donkey Kong

Queensland
1. Syke - Marth
2. Scrubs - Peach
3. King Kong - Sheik
4. Tristan - Samus
5. Accelerate - Captain Falcon
6. Radiance - Marth
7. Vyse - Falco
8. Gosu - Peach
9. Get That Rat - Sheik
10. K-0S - Doctor Mario

NorCal
1. Isai - Sheik/Captain Falcon
2. King - Jigglypuff
3. SilentSpectre - Captain Falcon
4. LunInSpectra - Fox
5. The GERM - Link/Falco
6. Zelgadis - Fox
7. Foxroar - Jigglypuff
8. Bob$ - Doctor Mario/Fox
9. Falcomist - Falco
10. Tang - Fox/Link

SoCal
1. Ken - Marth/Fox
2. DieSuperFly - Sheik?
3. HugS - Samus
4. Edrees - Peach
5. Arash - Jigglypuff
6. Wolf - Peach
7. Mike Y - Marth
8. Knives - Fox/Marth
9. Manacloud - Samus?
10. Romeo - Captain Falcon

Washington
1. Sastopher - Peach
2. Luigi Ka-Master - Luigi
3. VarietyBarrage - Fox
4. DJ Combo - Marth/Falco
5. Silent Wolf - Fox
6. BladeWise - Peach
7. Eggz - Mario/Fox/Falco
8. R.C. - Captain Falcon
9. JumpFreak - Fox
10. Gimpyfish - Bowser

Minnesota
1. Aarosmashguy - Falco/Captain Falcon
2. Chexr - ???
3. Yoshii - ???
4. Bluewolf - Ice Climbers/Sheik
5. SuperDoodleMan - Peach
6. MasterOfMyDomain - Falco/Fox
7. James Sparrow - Falco/Donkey Kong
8. GreenBunny - Marth
9. Zeus - ???
10. Deepak - ???

That's 81 players (Midwest has 11, since there were two tied for 9th). Out of those 81, 11 players main Marth. 22 main Fox. 13 main Falco. 11 main Sheik. The tier list seems justified enough to me, from that data.

You can claim Ken is the best ever all you like, but I really can't see representing THE WORLD with a single person's characters of choice.

 

[REDRAGON]

What the HECK does the amount of players matter to who is the best?!?!?!
For me its all about who WINS the tounaments. And Ken and Azen beat most if not all at a consistent rate....
Fox has always been the most popular.Even my nOOOb friends play as Fox, they dont even know what Wavedash means.

 

[Zankoku]

WHO is the best? You want to condense the entire Smash community to "Ken is the best player in the whole world, therefore he is the only one who matters?"

...Okay, I'm done, then.

 

[UMBC Super Smasher]

What the HECK does the amount of players matter to who is the best?!?!?!
For me its all about who WINS the tounaments. And Ken and Azen beat most if not all at a consistent rate....
Fox has always been the most popular.Even my nOOOb friends play as Fox, they dont even know what Wavedash means.

It's not the amount of players; these are the BEST players in each region. They are the people who win money in tournaments.

Thanks Ankoku for doing what I was too lazy to do myself.

REDRAGON, you're stubborn. That is all.

 

[Deleted member]

the point of my post was to show that marth has won 5 of the 7 major tournaments in the past year. If you want to count Cataclysm 3, that would be 6 out of 8 instead.

regional power ranking determine who is the best player in the area, not what the best character is. Tier lists are based on tournament results, not popularity. Marth is the dominant character of MLG, the highest level of tournament play. Therefore, Marth is top tier. You cannot refute this unless you deny the definition of a tier list, or you deny MLG results, both of which would make an opposing arguement false.

Conclusion: Marth is top tier.

If you don't like it, or you say Ken/Azen win everything, boo hoo, get over yourself. Until a nasty Fox main steps it up and beats then and wins MLG, not only is Marth top tier, he is more deserving of a higher spot on the tier list.

 

[Zankoku]

MLG isn't doing the circuit for SSBM any more : (.

We'll see what happens with EVO, though.

 

[Velox]

^^^ Evo!? What... do you wanna see wobbling all day? lol

Everyone should listen to Mow, that is a point I've always thought about. Ken and Azen are the meta game.

Edit* Oh, and it is a fact that Marth has an advantage over Fox.

 

[Emblem Lord]

NO ONE IS SAYING MARTH SUX!!!!!

MOW STOP FEEDING THE TROLL!!!!!!!!!

SON OF A *****!!!!

Marth is good. We all know that. Please stop the madness.

 

[thebluedeath1000]

lol I agree.

He has a sword for crying out loud...

 

[JesiahTEG]

Wow. Yesterday...I was playing smash...and I actually realized... How gay Marth can be to spacies. I'm starting to think Mow is right, Marth should be top tier. I honestly don't think spacies have an advantage over Marth. If anything, Marth has the advantage over spacies IMO. 0-death. Honestly 1 grab is all it takes to f*** a spacie up.

 

[Nick Nasty]

Wow. Yesterday...I was playing smash...and I actually realized... How gay Marth can be to spacies. I'm starting to think Mow is right, Marth should be top tier. I honestly don't think spacies have an advantage over Marth. If anything, Marth has the advantage over spacies IMO. 0-death. Honestly 1 grab is all it takes to f*** a spacie up.

That's what I said in the first place. IMO, the only things that are protecting them are the lazers and the shine, but if Marth grabs them, MAY GOD HAVE MERCY ON THEIR SOUL!

 

[Eggm]

I play m2k on a regular basis and watch him play the other spacies besides myself on a regular basis and I must say marth has the advantage over spacies, pc told me on aim that if m2k doesn't mes up his death combos you can't get out and m2k kills me in 1 grab VERY consistently same thing with a very good falco player around here reik. Now Granted if falco/fox play perfectly using their lasers to camp and make marth approach they WILL win, but marth can come at you with fairs and bait you or run past down tilt to grab or fair to grab or dash attack to grab and .. if you mess up even once you lose a stock, if marth messes up once he doesn't lose a stock, marth also doesn't' die every time he falls off on top of that marths tech skill is way easier than fox/falcos.. I really don't see how its not in marths favor.. But yeah i think the tier list should go Marth on top then fox then falco/sheik as a tie.. marth wins all the tournies now anyways and even pc and kdj are recognizing that characters advantages and most of their recent vids i saw showed them using little to no space animals. Pc told me at the TSA biweekly that he only uses falco vs marth and thats about it, so the only TOP TOP falco mains are like forward.. and.. well thats it, there are other extremeley good falcos but not at the top top game, everyone uses fox/marth with some sheik mixed in I think falcos reign is over, and as mow proved and m2k proves everyday Marth > fox so.. how can marth not be the top?

 

[takieddine]

Marth is broken, but I dont think that should place him above fox.

A fox can play the bait game much better with his lasers, plus he can outmaneuver a marth anyday, he is quick to react( which is what you need against a marth). he can punish w/ drillshine to grab uair combos etc.

Marth should however be tied with fox, with falco a bit behind.

 

[Aesir]

Key word if don't you think? >_>

and no way does marth have the advantage maybe on fd? but the match-up its self is very much even.

 

[JesiahTEG]

Key word if don't you think? >_>

and no way does marth have the advantage maybe on fd? but the match-up its self is very much even.

Ya, I shouldnt have said advantage. Even, MAYBE advantage. It is at least even though. Definitely.

 

[Pat/Pro]

the point of my post was to show that marth has won 5 of the 7 major tournaments in the past year. If you want to count Cataclysm 3, that would be 6 out of 8 instead.

Umm if im not mistaken I think that M2k didnt play marth for the majority of the set in the finals. So if a player mains marth but wins the tourney with someone other than marth it means marth wins? Doesnt make any sense. Who did he win the final game with at CAT3 ohhh yeah fox. The reason that the players use fox as well is because they have to. If ken only used marth throughout all the tourneys he played in he wouldnt win as frequently, the same with m2k. If M2k picked marth when dj picked shiek at cat 3 he wouldve lost the last match. It comes down to the fact that out of the top 10 in a tourney more than half will always be space animals and even if the winner used marth there is a good chance he had to whip out fox to get there.

Plus the whole argument that just because the best player uses marth thats all that matters red dragon is stupid. So youre saying that if chu dat was winning all the tournaments that means ICE CLIMBERS FOR TOP TIER cause all that would matter was who is getting first. I mean Aniki beat ken so that means that LINK PWNS ALL. LINK FOR GOD TIER. (insert sarcasm)

Wow. Yesterday...I was playing smash...and I actually realized... How gay Marth can be to spacies. I'm starting to think Mow is right, Marth should be top tier. I honestly don't think spacies have an advantage over Marth. If anything, Marth has the advantage over spacies IMO. 0-death. Honestly 1 grab is all it takes to f*** a spacie up.

Every one knows that marth has an advantage a slight advantge over fox and falco. But hes the only character that does. Cf can and shiek does have an advantage over marth which is why alot of people use fox or falco as well. And unless you play all your matches on final D all its takes isnt one grab. Like I said before its really stage dependent. On a few levels fox has an advantage over marth, especially counterpick levels.

 

[JesiahTEG]

Every one knows that marth has an advantage a slight advantge over fox and falco.

eh, maybe. I think there would be a lot of ppl to agree that fox and falco have the advantage. I personally think Marth has a slight advantage, but there are other ppl that wouldnt agree. It's close, but imo chaingrabbing-->death is too good against spacies.

 

[Deleted member]

Umm if im not mistaken I think that M2k didnt play marth for the majority of the set in the finals. So if a player mains marth but wins the tourney with someone other than marth it means marth wins? Doesnt make any sense. Who did he win the final game with at CAT3 ohhh yeah fox. The reason that the players use fox as well is because they have to. If ken only used marth throughout all the tourneys he played in he wouldnt win as frequently, the same with m2k. If M2k picked marth when dj picked shiek at cat 3 he wouldve lost the last match. It comes down to the fact that out of the top 10 in a tourney more than half will always be space animals and even if the winner used marth there is a good chance he had to whip out fox to get there.

It's called a counterpick, since KDJ has been giving ken real problems lately sheik to marth. You'll notice that m2k went 1-1 with KDJ's sheik as marth before swicthing to fox. M2K used fox 3 games of cat 3, and won many many sets 2-0 to get there as marth. He used 95% marth, so I just summarized.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Max why do you hate me and defy me? -_-

WHY???!!!

Death combos are only viable on FD.

WHOOP DEE MOTHA****IN DOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Eggm]

M2k has 0-deathed me or 0-off the stage to edgeguard deathed me on non FD many times.. and if you do get out you get like what 1 or 2 more chances per stock?

 

[Emblem Lord]

M2K is far better then you Eggm. Your argument is not valid.

Next. >_>

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth is good against spacies. And it has already been established that thier matchups will vary depending the stage.

Marth does well against them on neutrals except pokemon stadium.

So tell me what happnes to Marth when you take him to onett, green greens, pokefloats, peaches castle, or most other counter pick stages?

HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM?

He gets ****in butt ****ed *** *****. That's what.

Edit. Double post ftw and watcha gonna do about it huh? HUH?!

 

[Gimpyfish62]

i always glance at threads like this and realize that mow could very well be the only person on this site that knows what he is talking about

 

[Deleted member]

Marth is good against spacies. And it has already been established that thier matchups will vary depending the stage.

Marth does well against them on neutrals except pokemon stadium.

So tell me what happnes to Marth when you take him to onett, green greens, pokefloats, peaches castle, or most other counter pick stages?

HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM?

I would slam eggm like that, he looked pretty good when he came here, and him and reik gave me and sensei a nasty set in teams.

most tournaments lately have onett and peaches castle banned. no one picks pokefloats cause it's gay, gayer than marth even (but not much).

The only viable marth counterpicks for fox are green greens, poke stad, brinstar, and to some extent DL64. You can ban one, so you ban a neutral so you don't get gayed on random, logically speaking.

So now you're marth vs fox and you took off poke stadium and fox took off battlefield for the same of regularity, either battlefield or FD works here but most fox players love FD. That leaves DL64 for random out of 4 stages you can get (FD, FoD, DL64, and YS being leftover.no matter what neutral you get 1st match, you have an advantage on 3 of those 4 maps, and DL64 is even. No matter what, fox is either even or at a disadvantage, so you can't outright lose the "neutral" pick.

You and your opponent are evenly skilled, you beat fox.

Fox takes you to green greens, you get reamed.

You take fox to FD and 4 stock him outright.

You win the set. Or not? this is the finals, you would have won the normal set though.

Fox takes you to brinstar and you get killed.

You take Fox to YS, and win. You still won the set. If you don't like Marth's Story, you can always opt for Fountain of Marth. Even in best of 7, you'll still win.

0 to death CG is only viable for FD, but marth can tech chase fox all day if he stays on the stage, edgeguard him to death if he goes off the stage, or continue combos but swinging through platforms. Watch VoD of azen vs ken marth dittos from vegas finals, once one player gets in the air, he never lands. Great example.

EL I hate you for your character. Most people play Fox cause he's gay and wins matches, I play fox because I like the character, so it's easy for me to hate on his worst match. I've played fire emblem and I've studied various forms of swordsmanship since I was little, so marth is a cool character. But my hate for him in that he ***** my fav character overrides any points that I think are cool about him.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Didn't say eggm was bad, just that he can't use himself in an argument when he is comparing himself to someone better then him.

Mow: You admmited what I was just going to say. The people that think Marth is top are the people who's mains get owned by him. The people who main him and know about his problems know why he is good, but also know why he isn't top. M2K would never be caught dead saying Marth it top tier material.