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Why Marth Isn't Top Tier

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puckgood

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 6, 2008
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284
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Why do you care, stalker? Don't make me sic the po
I have a question for M2K. Why is Sheik the best character? I'm not disagreeing with you, but I've never been able to get a decent answer on that from anyone else. And that's hearsay anyway. So why is sheik the best? And you comes in second and third? And where is Falco on the M2K tierlist?

EDIT:::

<.<
>.>
waits for answer
 
Jboy313

Jboy313

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 14, 2008
Messages
154
Location
London, Ontario
NNID
Braunz
marth is actually in the top tier but hes just under fox because fox is overall better..this is the newest tier list..

Tier List As Of October 2008
Top
Fox 9.9
Marth 9.9
Sheik 9.7
Falco 9.2

High
Peach 8.4
Captain Falcon 8.0
Jigglypuff 8.0
Ice Climbers 7.9

Middle
Samus 6.8
Dr. Mario 6.2
Ganondorf 6.0
Luigi 5.8
Donkey Kong 5.4
Mario 5.3

Low
Link 4.7
Pikachu 4.3
Young Link 4.2
Roy 3.6
Zelda 3.0
Game and Watch 3.0

Bottom
Ness 2.5
Yoshi 2.5
Bowser 2.2
Mewtwo 1.8
Kirby 1.5
Pichu 1.2

Maybe one day enough ppl will start playing marth to get him above fox..but that will most likly not happen cuz fox is faster and has a bigger variety of attacks and combos. mostly cuz his shine just ownes.
 
S

SHDW23

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 17, 2008
Messages
214
so, um, what are we going to talk about now that marth is top tier? I mean once we get done gloating about how we were right all along... :psycho:
 
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IrArby

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
883
Location
Portsmouth VA
I'm inclined to agree with M2K (not just because its M2K ok?) that Shiek is top. Simply put, she counters Marth, goes even with Fox, has a slight disadvantage to Falco and I believe she has the advantage over Falcon and Peach overall not to mention Jiggs.

She takes the least skill to do well with too, though thats not really a factor in tier placement. Still, I'd argue that people have been playing this game long enough where a new tier list doesn't mean much since we all know the matchups by now which is ultimately more accurate.
 
elvenarrow3000

elvenarrow3000

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 22, 2007
Messages
3,308
Ummm...

Going by that logic, doesn't Falco not have any disadvantageous matchups? I'm pretty sure he goes even with Marth and has a slight advantage/is even with Fox and Sheik... he has a moderate advantage over Peach and Falcon, right?
 
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IrArby

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Messages
883
Location
Portsmouth VA
I've been asking people about this actually but I believe I've heard (read) M2K say (post) that Marth has the advantage over Falco on most Nuetral Stages at least since he dies early and easily. Fox/ Marth is pretty close to even but I think most people give Fox the upperhand vs. Falco believe it or not. I'm no Falco/Fox main though.

I read the Falcon/Falco matchup as pretty close to even and give Falco the edge vs. Peach. Still, Marth can beat him pretty handily on certain stages and even on FD, CGs can lead to a stock more easily than Falco's combos on Marth can.
 
Shai Hulud

Shai Hulud

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 21, 2006
Messages
1,495
Location
Oregon
Mew2King said:
wow @ ppl taking it to heart so much

SBR isn't know-all, they mostly based off tourney results which I think is dumb. I am still very sure that Sheik is the best character, and Fox is overall better than Marth too.
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I don't think anybody disagrees with you that Sheik is the best character as far as most favorable matchups. If characters were evenly distributed across tournaments Sheik would always be the best choice. If the tier list were based upon this hypothetical even distribution of characters then yes, Sheik would be #1.

But why should the tier list look like that? Doesn't it make more sense to base it off the characters people are actually using? Sheik's worst matchups are Fox and Falco, two of the most popular characters. If Marth continues to grow in popularity and Fox and Falco decline then Sheiks will start winning more and hence Sheik will be a better character.

The tier list is not (and should not be) static. It's basically a dynamical system that depends on initial constraints, which is the character distribution. In the early days of Melee when character distribution was more even, and characters like Ganon were thought to be really good, Sheik became the best character and hence became very popular. The constraints of the system had changed. At this point Fox and Falco became excellent choices because of their advantage on Sheik, and so became more popular. The constraints of the system changed again. Marth became a good answer to the space animals and became more popular. Anyway you get the idea. This is of course oversimplified but one could theoretically come up with a mathematical model (perhaps as a Markov Chain) for the tier list. If the model ever reached a steady state this would represent the "final" tier list.
 
Anonymous.

Anonymous.

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Aug 26, 2008
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Getting used to FL.....slowly.
JesiahTEG said:
There aren't enough good Marth players. I think Marth needs to be played smarter than falco, fox, and sheik at high levels, and his play style is extremely match up based. Marth has the potential to be the best character in the game because of his versatility, but mastering him is harder than mastering the other 3 most used tourney characters. He has the most potential, and has the potential for the most creativity and unpredictability. The only problem is, fox and falco are more successful in tourneys because for the most part, not always, but for the most part, they can be played the same way without adjusting to their match ups, and be more successful than a marth that plays without changing thier style according to matchups. Fox and Falco have less potential to be creative and unpredictable, but marth has more versatility than fox, falco, and sheik. Marth's versatility has only been utilized to the max by a few players, Ken and Azen being among them, and this is the reason Marth was top tier at one point. Since the tier list is based solely on tourney results, and fox and falco are easier to master than Marth (not tech wise, but match up wise) ppl play fox and falco more than marth, and generally do better than marth in tourneys, because Marth is more difficult to be successful with at a high level of play than fox and falco are. For this reason, I've noticed a significant increase in fox and falco's in tourneys, and again because the tier list is based on tourney results, marth is not top tier. He is high tier though, and this is because more ppl play Marth than they play other characters like DK, Ness, Bowser. This is because marth is obviously a better character than everyone else in the tiers below him. This is an extremely unbalanced fighting game. Others may argue that peach is harder to use than marth, and that's why the number of peaches in tourneys have gone down, and that's also why peach has moved down the tier list, but IMO marth is a better character than peach, with more potential.

Summary: A Marth that is successful in high levels of play requires the player to be smarter, more creative, and unpredictable than Fox, Falco and Sheik. For this reason, 1.) Marth's have been played less in recent tourneys, 2.) It's easier to be successful with Fox, Falco and Sheik.


Remember, this is all opinion based on my recent observations and everything i've studied about smash. I'd appreciate it if higher level players put in their two cents and let me know what their opinion on my thoughts are. I'd like to hear from more experienced players, and it would mean a lot to me if I could get some feedback from players like Husband, Cactuar, Frostbyte, UMBC super smasher, b-will...maybe even ken and taj.
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Husband? Ken? Taj lol Husband quit awhile ago. and even then he isn't the most knowledgable marth player. Ken is done with smash for school, and so is taj.

neither are all of those other players you listed. except for cactuar ken and taj. charles has a ask me about marth thread in the marth crit room, so go there if you wanna get feedback.

also, use paragraphs, plz. wall of text's are ********.

edit: holy **** i just got mindgamed into responding to a year old post LOLOL
 
Dr. Bread

Dr. Bread

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 11, 2015
Messages
121
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Norcal(humboldt county)
i thought marth was top tier

I dont think he has any losing matchups other than fox, and most marths are good against foxes as well.

I'd place falco no higher than 3rd place, and possibly as low as 4th, and i would say that marth solidly wins the matchup.

i wouldn't say fox and marth are on equal footing, even on FD, but he's probably the best character against fox out of the whole cast and like i said before, a lot of marths specialize against fox.

as for switching characters, thats not really attributable to matchups. In the end its more to do with which of your characters will win that particular game, not so much the matchup.

at all levels of play, most of melee will be in your head.
 
T

thf24

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 23, 2015
Messages
27
Dr. Bread said:
i thought marth was top tier

I dont think he has any losing matchups other than fox, and most marths are good against foxes as well.

I'd place falco no higher than 3rd place, and possibly as low as 4th, and i would say that marth solidly wins the matchup.

i wouldn't say fox and marth are on equal footing, even on FD, but he's probably the best character against fox out of the whole cast and like i said before, a lot of marths specialize against fox.

as for switching characters, thats not really attributable to matchups. In the end its more to do with which of your characters will win that particular game, not so much the matchup.

at all levels of play, most of melee will be in your head.
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At present Marth is considered to have an even matchup against Fox (and Falco) in general. He has a decidedly bad matchup against Sheik, and Falcon and Puff are iffy as to whether they're even or in one or the other's favor. He also has trouble, arguably losing, to several non-high tiers, most notably Pikachu and Yoshi.

As long as I'm posting on a nine-year-old thread, I'll say that while Marth at present is definitely top tier in theory (possibly #1 in my opinion), I'm not sure he should be as high when you add in the human element. He requires more precision, as his mostly great moves and slower and more discreet (fewer active frames) than most; and more consistency, as he must win neutral many more times than other characters with more guaranteed and not situational kill setups, relying on edge guards for most of his kills at high level.
 
Zorcey

Zorcey

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 12, 2015
Messages
371
Few people posting in this thread seem to realize this debate was from 2007.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
hey 9.5 years later and i still think marth is ********

that's consistency
 
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