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Why Marth Isn't Top Tier

elvenarrow3000

elvenarrow3000

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I didn't say he'd shine Falco's lasers... he'd just shine Falco every time he got close, then techchase perfectly with perfect dashing JC shines to perfect wavedash to more perfect techchases.

Heck, perfect Fox could just use shine to clank everything.
 
Tomato Kirby

Tomato Kirby

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What a long discussion this must have been. It lasted for more than a year.

Interesting discussion, though...
 
D

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elvenarrow3000 said:
I didn't say he'd shine Falco's lasers... he'd just shine Falco every time he got close, then techchase perfectly with perfect dashing JC shines to perfect wavedash to more perfect techchases.

Heck, perfect Fox could just use shine to clank everything.
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A perfect Marth could use disjointed attacks and powershield and never get hit. And unlike shine, those have a margin of error and don't require frame perfect play.
 
ArcNatural

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How many frames does a perfect powershield take? Since were talking in absolutes as long as Fox can activate his shine before any possible move I think he takes this.

Umbreon I don't see how you can use margin of error and frame perfect play as excuses when everyone is talking about PERFECT Marth and Fox. I'll say that in terms of reality I think it's far more plausible for someone to approach being a perfect Marth over a perfect Fox, but in terms of actual perfection, since Fox can move in his multishine, providing that he initially clanks with whatever move Marth attempts can he shine again before Marth can do anything? I don't know the frame issues with clanking or powershielding. I know they are practically non existant, but are there any frames? If there are absolutely no frames of lag from powershielding I can see how Marth could just repeatedly powershield the shine but be unable to do anything else. Unless there is a move Marth can do faster than a multishine.
 
Shai Hulud

Shai Hulud

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It's impossible to say who the best character is with frame-perfect play because frame-perfect play does not exist and we have no way of accurately predicting it. Theoretically computers can powershield everything, which would make attacking in general very complicated. A attacks B, B powershields, immediately attacks A, A powershields, etc.

A computer could also immediately calculate whether a grab would connect based on an opponent's trajectory and predicted location at the time the grab hit box is extended. Any attack made within this range would simply be grabbed, timed so as to clank, since grabs always win in clank situations.

Since a computer can smash DI everything multiple times (one time for each frame of hit stun) there would not be many combos. The most effective combos I think would be based on tech-chasing. A computer should never mess up a tech chase provided the character is fast-enough to follow your tech.

The problem is, if both computers are playing under the same rules, why would anyone ever attack? The optimum play would seemingly be to camp, powershield everything that isn't in grab range, followed by a dash JC grab if the attack has enough lag, otherwise continue to sit there, and grab anything that is in grab range.

There really aren't any attacks you can throw out fast enough that a computer wouldn't be able to use this strategy. The optimum strategy then would be not to initiate attack.

How did this topic come up anyway? It's completely irrevelant to the tier list since humans can't possibly play like this.
 
elvenarrow3000

elvenarrow3000

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Powershield lag is the same as shieldstun, just without the shield drop lag which is like fifteen frames.
 
Winston

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Shai Hulud said:
It's impossible to say who the best character is with frame-perfect play because frame-perfect play does not exist and we have no way of accurately predicting it. Theoretically computers can powershield everything, which would make attacking in general very complicated. A attacks B, B powershields, immediately attacks A, A powershields, etc.

A computer could also immediately calculate whether a grab would connect based on an opponent's trajectory and predicted location at the time the grab hit box is extended. Any attack made within this range would simply be grabbed, timed so as to clank, since grabs always win in clank situations.

Since a computer can smash DI everything multiple times (one time for each frame of hit stun) there would not be many combos. The most effective combos I think would be based on tech-chasing. A computer should never mess up a tech chase provided the character is fast-enough to follow your tech.

The problem is, if both computers are playing under the same rules, why would anyone ever attack? The optimum play would seemingly be to camp, powershield everything that isn't in grab range, followed by a dash JC grab if the attack has enough lag, otherwise continue to sit there, and grab anything that is in grab range.

There really aren't any attacks you can throw out fast enough that a computer wouldn't be able to use this strategy. The optimum strategy then would be not to initiate attack.

How did this topic come up anyway? It's completely irrevelant to the tier list since humans can't possibly play like this.
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Magus has stated that the "frame perfect play" tier list is Fox, then Bowser, then Falco, and that it would devolve into ledgecamping.

Anyways, I think most people don't realize that powershielding isn't lagless. You can cancel shine and attack again before powershielding lag is over.
 
KevinM

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Actually to be frank he said that it was Fox and Bowser would be god tier. Falco would be high but would still be obsolete and all the other characters would be garbage.
 
Shai Hulud

Shai Hulud

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KevinM said:
Actually to be frank he said that it was Fox and Bowser would be god tier. Falco would be high but would still be obsolete and all the other characters would be garbage.
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Seems to me there would be no game at all as no character would ever have a reason to approach.
 
D

Deleted member

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At the original poster:

Tiers are based on top level play tournament results. Since Marth wins almost all high level play tournaments, he is top tier. Not only is he top tier, but he is the top of the top tier, regardless of whatever other biases there might be.
 
S

SHDW23

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if you want to talk frame perfect, check out superdoodleman

edit: though i'd bet most of you already have
 
S

SHDW23

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if you're talking about superdoodleman, rathy Aro, he wouldn't be in a regular match, but he used fast action replay (i think it's called) to slow the game down so that he can be frame perfect. it's pretty cool. his videos are perfect control and adventure (in which he clears very hard adventure mode w/out taking damage). it's astounding what fox can do when you have the time to do it.
 
RaynEX

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I'm not sure if this is the Fox main side of talking, but I think Sheik > Fox > Marth.

Though after facing M2K a few times it feels like Marth>Fox. A ****load of other factors come into play when deciding which character is better though.
 
Shai Hulud

Shai Hulud

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It really depends on what characters people are using. You can't talk about which characters are best without the context of character popularity. Fox has a slight advantage on Sheik, Sheik has a slight advantage on Marth, and Marth has a slight advantage on Fox. So if everyone used Fox, Marth would be the "best" of these three. If everyone used Marth, Sheik would be the best. And if everyone used Sheik, Fox would be the best.

The reason Fox became popular in the first place was not because he is the best character in terms of most favorable matchups (Sheik is), but because Fox does well against Sheik, who was by far the most popular character for a long time. Once the character distribution shifted towards space animals and less people were playing Sheik, Marths became more common to deal with the space animals.

In terms of what characters people are actually using now, Fox and Marth should fare the best in tournaments. And, it seems, they do.
 
H

hoopspr226

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Shai Hulud said:
It really depends on what characters people are using. You can't talk about which characters are best without the context of character popularity. Fox has a slight advantage on Sheik, Sheik has a slight advantage on Marth, and Marth has a slight advantage on Fox. So if everyone used Fox, Marth would be the "best" of these three. If everyone used Marth, Sheik would be the best. And if everyone used Sheik, Fox would be the best.

The reason Fox became popular in the first place was not because he is the best character in terms of most favorable matchups (Sheik is), but because Fox does well against Sheik, who was by far the most popular character for a long time. Once the character distribution shifted towards space animals and less people were playing Sheik, Marths became more common to deal with the space animals.

In terms of what characters people are actually using now, Fox and Marth should fare the best in tournaments. And, it seems, they do.
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Good Call. I never really thought about it that way.
 
D

d snyde

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Jul 31, 2008
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Marth is Top but others can be better. It just depends on the player behind the character and the stage that the character plays on
 
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