Why Marth Isn't Top Tier

[RaynEX]

Marth isn't top tier because Sheik ***** him.


/logic

 

[Niko45]

Fox
Sheik
Marth

They are the top 3 but this isn't rock paper scissors. Fox has adv vs sheik and even vs marth. Fox is the only character that doesn't have a disadvantage against the other 2 characters.

I could see fox = sheik at the top but marth is pretty much locked in at 3 imo. People get the wrong impression about fox vs marth bc they see too many m2k vids, which is a marth that particularly murders space animals well. When most people play fox vs marth it doesn't look like the m2k gimp clinics on youtube.

 

[Mew2King]

Marth is top tier

ur dumb

sheik fox marth falco is my personal order, but marth is obviously top tier just like the other 3

marth vs fox is even

also, nothing good of mine is on youtube, back in my prime days, i rarely missed CGs. I'd kill a Fox from a grab at 0 like 2/3rds of the time on FD. a year and a half ago or so I almost jv 5 stocked D1 by just CGing him to death 3 times in a row, but that only works on FD.

 

[Niko45]

the point is that m2k marth vs fox vids are the most common, recent, and popular marth/fox vids on youtube and especially before the 0C3 vids came out there has been a lack of marth/fox vids with fox winning which throws of perceptions of marth vs fox in general.

 

[Mew2King]

Me, PC, and Ken will all tell you the matchup is even. I've done it tons of times from both sides, it is the most even you can get.

 

[ToP CaT]

the matchup is def even, marth fox is probably one of the most even but yea it depends on the players and the stages..certain stages like fd or ys are going to swing marths way...which is how it has worked out recently...but players of equal skill level on a neutral level its as even as it gets.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Marth isn't top tier because Sheik ***** him.


/logic

fox isn't top tier because falco ***** him.


/nipples

 

[IShotLazer]

Marth isn't top tier because he just can't dodge attacks fast enough. He probably has some of the best offensive capabilities but gets combo'd. He also doesn't have a projectile.
Due to Marth being the way he is, his playing style is usually similar to others.
Also he requires a good bit of planning while he is approaching... Otherwise your swinging a sword around probably getting punished.
Simply put his reaction game just isn't good enough as the rest of the cast namely Fox, Falco and Sheik. and not quite enough variety.
Marth has one good thing going for him though. As long as you have the right mind set he is much easier to have consistency with. If you are feeling the least bit edgy with Falco or fox then your game is much more affected than your Marth would be. Even sheik is harder to play with consistency. Captain Falcon probably got the worst end of the deal in consistency because if you, even for a moment, don't feel confident and aren't on top of things then you get completely screwed over.
IMO that's why Marth does so well, he is consistent.

 

[IShotLazer]

P.S. Marth is Top tier. Just not at the TOP of top tier, rather... On the bottom.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Why does it matter if Marth is top tier or not? If you like Marth's playstyle, you're going to play him, even if he's bottom. Tiers aren't set in stone, they can change and you might as well play whatever character you want.

 

[IShotLazer]

If you like Marth's playstyle, you're going to play him, even if he's bottom. Tiers aren't set in stone, they can change and you might as well play whatever character you want.

You can't suddenly put an opinion into a debate and just blanket statement the entire thing...
Yeah if you like Marth you are going to play him.
Yeah it's true that some people legitmitely play better with other characters simply based on the way they think.
However it was never about that so why change the subject?

Also that isn't true, if Marth did happen to be bottom tier and I wasn't performing well with him I'd change characters. Marth is cool but truthfully I have no emotional attachment to the character, I just enjoy playing with him as a character in Melee.
Also yeah, Tiers aren't set in stone but we have a good idea (at least DECENTLY educated)on the human limit on what the best character is going to be. I'm pretty confident that in the near future I won't be seeing Kirby becoming Top tier, or Pichu.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Well the thing is, the tiers may change, but the character won't. Most people probably started playing Marth when he was high tier, not top tier, and they'll probably continue to play him when he's not top tier. And even if he is changed to top tier, most people who play him now will probably still play him.

So I'm not sure why it matters if he's top tier or not.

 

[Milos]

Well the thing is, the tiers may change, but the character won't. Most people probably started playing Marth when he was high tier, not top tier, and they'll probably continue to play him when he's not top tier. And even if he is changed to top tier, most people who play him now will probably still play him.

So I'm not sure why it matters if he's top tier or not.

that's just not true. smart people play good characters. I'm pretty sure ken wasn't thinking "I'm sure that guy with the tiara could kick some ***" back when he picked up marth. he knew marth was good already. true fire emblem fanboys play roy.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

lol why are marth players so ridiculous

marth is the best character in the game at the peak of practical gameplay and thats the end of it.

 

[IShotLazer]

I actually disagree with you Gimpy.
I think he is the best consistent character for practical purposes as you said, but Sheik and Fox can be played at a higher level. In other words if you are in the zone it's better to pick Fox/Sheik but in any other case its safer to pick Marth.

 

[Milos]

you're wrong, zelda's down b is faaaar better than fox's

she's the most broken piece of **** in the game besides shiek

 

[SHDW23]

actually, i believe everyone thought marth was a bit of a joke when ken started playing him. and i hope you're kidding about shiek and zelda. otherwise i don't see how you can consider them to be the two most "broken" characters in the game.

 

[IShotLazer]

Zelda's Down B is probably the BEST move in the game. It's too bad they gave Sheik such a horrible down B... It's funny how that worked out....
...
...
...
...
Whoops....
I accidentally said Zelda's Down B is the WORST. Got ahead of mahself.

 

[SHDW23]

ahahahaha, i didn't read milos's post right (i read it as zelda's b). i went right over the important part. boy i look stupid...

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

what do you mean by "at the peak of practical gameplay" gimpy?

ur dumb

ISAI

Marth isn't top tier because he just can't dodge attacks fast enough. He probably has some of the best offensive capabilities but gets combo'd.

.....
LMFAO

 

[TheLake]

Zelda's Down B is probably the worst move in the game. It's too bad they gave Sheik such a horrible down B... It's funny how that worked out....
...
...
...
...

What...? O_o


Any hoot fox is the best at peak, marth and falco are the best right now in terms of where the competitive aspect of smash has reached (marth beats falcon though so he would be the best in that respect) and sheik is just the best in practicality.

No bad matchups = awsomley the bestest in the world

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

No bad matchups = awsomley the bestest in the world

Thats why sheik is the best in the game

 

[IShotLazer]

XD can't believe I said Zelda has the worst down B whoops.
Anyway.

Marth doesn't have any actual bad match ups. I keep hearing that the sheik match up is really bad but once you get used to it it's really not so bad. Everyone else seems to do okay against sheik as Marth. My intuition says Sheik should win yet it just doesn't happen the way you think it would. I almost see it as an even match up and whoever has the best mindgames wins. I know that's a vague statement but I think it DOES come down to the better player. Even so Fox is better.

 

[IrArby]

Shiek soft counters Marth and goes even or better with everyone close to the top except maybe Falco. I think M2K's tier list put her on top. Marth gets counter by Falcon and its fact. I'd put Shiek Fox/Marth tie for 2nd then Falco. I'd actually put Falcon over Peach but who am I anyway. Marth isn't top though IMO.

 

[Europhoria]

Sheik is a hard counter for Marth.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I almost see it as an even match up and whoever has the best mindgames wins.

No.

Just... no.

 

[IrArby]

Alright I'd say more than soft but not a hard counter. Still just IMO but decent Marths will convert the majority of thier edgeguards into KOs against her.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

Sheik vs Marth is prolly the hardest counter there is amongst the top tiers.
(Maybe marth vs fox on FD is worse, but that's stage dependant)

 

[IrArby]

I've been told that Falco ***** Sheik but honestly I don't see that happening very often. Sure he combos the hell out of her just like Fox but Falco gets gimped by her nearly as much as anyone else.

I guess I just want a little clarification on how people veiw this matchup.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Falco Sheik is silly because he can sort of run around and do Falco-like things such as combos and laser spam and if they know how to CC at all then your tilts and stuff are pretty much useless against him and you can't really combo him until about 60.

That said, it's pretty close, maybe 60-40 for falco or 55-45 and it's not that bad at all. People exaggerate.

 

[IShotLazer]

Falco Vs. Sheik isn't bad for either player at all...
Falco can laser spam a good bit however sheik doesn't get combo'd as nicely as one would think. Sheik gets insanely easy gimps on Falco as well.
Sheik CAN combo Falco extremely well. Platform stages make her combos flow very easily. Utilt with sheik also works better in this matchup because with good DI its hard to continue a F-Tilt into to something useful and it might end up being an empty attack .
U air, is even better. It out prioritizes Falco's D-air so if you predict that approach (which is common) you can get a succession of hits that do a good bit of damage.
Falco's up tilt and upair are a lot better in this matchup than him vs another character.
I actually see Sheik vs Falco in Sheik's favor, about 55/45 very similar to the Marth Vs Falco matchup in which I see THAT as 55/45 Marth favor as well.
Either way you have it, Sheik vs Falco is decently even. No one is going to say anything ridiculous such as making it out to be a 65/35 or worse in either favor.
Also it's easy to adapt to a CC player, when do you have problems with it? If your opponent is CCing predictably and you're not punishing properly then you're doing it wrong.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Marth vs. Shiek is 4-6. ZOMG SUPER HARD COUNTER!?!?

No. I honestly find fighting Falcon harder than fighting Shiek.

 

[IrArby]

I always go Falco instead of Marth against Falcons since I always DI his combos wrong and get KO'd. Plus I feel like I can control the stage with lasers alot better than a long sword. : ( Self-pity insues

 

[KirbyKaze]

Marth vs. Shiek is 4-6. ZOMG SUPER HARD COUNTER!?!?

No. I honestly find fighting Falcon harder than fighting Shiek.

it's really more like 65/35

most sheiks just tend to suck at stuff like ccing marth's non-tipped fairs into free **** grab combos and diing marth's combos so the matchup looks close but really she ***** him pretty hard.

lazer - if he ccs all your tilts, even if you space, ccs your jab, ccs your dash attack, and ccs/dis your d-smash properly, you still lose a lot of damage output until he goes over 60. if you mispace and he cc shines you, you get comboed for some stupid percent.

cc knocks out sheik's tilts, dash attack, and her jab for quite a long time. if you can di while you cc like bam does, you also lose d-smash but since that's hard i'll let it go. your ground game is reduced to grab, d-smash, and yeah that's about it. until 50-60. then it gets easier.

most of your game vs falco as sheik is running around doing single aerials until he hits that magic percentage. meanwhile, his damage output far exceeds yours. the only reason the disproportionate damage output doesn't make this matchup that bad is because of what you noted, sheik's priority over his aerial approaches. the result is a sort of push-pull relationship where falco's single hits do massive damage (40 from 0 without even trying; dair shine to another aerial and then a pair of lasers is definitely plausible even with sdi and good di) while sheik has a priority advantage. however, massive damage is good, and he gets her to the point where she is edgeguarded to death very well. once she's offstage if the falco just gets up and d-smashes her off (or combos her off again at low %) then she should die. it'll take a while but she will die.

falco's edgeguarding ***** sheik. sheik's edgeguarding ***** falco.

it's close, but i don't see how sheik has an advantage when falco can camp and control so well and then look for 40% combos and edgeguards hard. sheik can obviously do tons of stuff back but if the falco doesn't do stupid things like wait on platforms for him to be uaired, or times his shffls with his lasers so there's too much stun for sheik to jump out of shield with uair, then i don't see how it could be sheik's favour.

 

[SonuvaBeach]

There aren't enough good Marth players. I think Marth needs to be played smarter than falco, fox, and sheik at high levels, and his play style is extremely match up based. Marth has the potential to be the best character in the game because of his versatility, but mastering him is harder than mastering the other 3 most used tourney characters. He has the most potential, and has the potential for the most creativity and unpredictability. The only problem is, fox and falco are more successful in tourneys because for the most part, not always, but for the most part, they can be played the same way without adjusting to their match ups, and be more successful than a marth that plays without changing thier style according to matchups. Fox and Falco have less potential to be creative and unpredictable, but marth has more versatility than fox, falco, and sheik. Marth's versatility has only been utilized to the max by a few players, Ken and Azen being among them, and this is the reason Marth was top tier at one point. Since the tier list is based solely on tourney results, and fox and falco are easier to master than Marth (not tech wise, but match up wise) ppl play fox and falco more than marth, and generally do better than marth in tourneys, because Marth is more difficult to be successful with at a high level of play than fox and falco are. For this reason, I've noticed a significant increase in fox and falco's in tourneys, and again because the tier list is based on tourney results, marth is not top tier. He is high tier though, and this is because more ppl play Marth than they play other characters like DK, Ness, Bowser. This is because marth is obviously a better character than everyone else in the tiers below him. This is an extremely unbalanced fighting game. Others may argue that peach is harder to use than marth, and that's why the number of peaches in tourneys have gone down, and that's also why peach has moved down the tier list, but IMO marth is a better character than peach, with more potential.

Summary: A Marth that is successful in high levels of play requires the player to be smarter, more creative, and unpredictable than Fox, Falco and Sheik. For this reason, 1.) Marth's have been played less in recent tourneys, 2.) It's easier to be successful with Fox, Falco and Sheik.


Remember, this is all opinion based on my recent observations and everything i've studied about smash. I'd appreciate it if higher level players put in their two cents and let me know what their opinion on my thoughts are. I'd like to hear from more experienced players, and it would mean a lot to me if I could get some feedback from players like Husband, Cactuar, Frostbyte, UMBC super smasher, b-will...maybe even ken and taj.

Marth is Top Tier!!!!!!!

 

[JBM falcon08]

Marth vs. Shiek is 4-6. ZOMG SUPER HARD COUNTER!?!?

No. I honestly find fighting Falcon harder than fighting Shiek.

Are you inexperienced against falcon?

Sheik is 60/40. no more **** or more even its that.

 

[Proverbs]

Marth is Top Tier!!!!!!!

QFT, as of now Marth has been recognized as the second best in all of Melee. Sooner or later he'll be the top of top tier. I'm sure of it.

 

[Brainjack]

um....too bad he already is top tier....

but yes i completely agree with what you said

 

[elvenarrow3000]

...Marth already is top of top tier, Proverbs. He's only below Fox 'cause of the alphabet.

 

[JesiahTEG]

This thread is win.