Why Marth Isn't Top Tier

[JesiahTEG]

Well, UMBC let me rephrase what I said. Maybe your not experienced, but of the ppl that post on the Marth boards your 1 of about 6 or 7 that know what they're talking about, and I'm pretty sure you'd 1-2 stock me, so I'll take advice from you.

 

[UMBC Super Smasher]

JesighTEG, are you going to MLG Grassroots? I'll be there, along with a bunch of other MD/VA players.

 

[Pat/Pro]

Yeah Jesiah what big tournaments are you going to? Im pretty sure im going to pound for sure but probably more things. I really want a chance to put my money where my mouth is. And please bring your crew for that crew battle. Me + Jholla + Hayato and whatever turtles decide to go with him vs your crew.

Also I agree with what UMBC says about ken. To be a good marth player you have to play mistake free. You can actually see this play style in kens fox (i.e. you can see his marth in his fox if that makes sense). It isnt flashy or full or extra technical gameplay like maybe cunning kitsunes fox but is built on a solid foundation of making the correct decision every time and being rewarded for it. And alot of people tend to lose patience with marth for that reason and maybe choose a character like fox whose speed and skills can make up for those mistakes.

 

[Shai Hulud]

I think if you have the tech skill then Falco is probably the easiest character to place well with. And I have all kinds of tech skill, but I don't place well because I use Captain Falcon

 

[gamefreak2006]

I'm gonna go off topic a bit. I'm also from rochester, and I'm in the best (read: only) crew around this area. Jesiah, no offense, but you are not in our crew. It consists of myself, pikapika, shiri, goodies, and haruka. I know you're new to the game, as well as our smash community, and we've tolerated a lot of your rantings, and I've tried to help you understand certain things about this game. One of those things, was not shooting your mouth off saying you/we can take anyone, anytime. Another thing was taking what we say out of context, saying we did well against people at a tourney, doesn't mean we will beat them anytime soon, if at all. So please stop acting like you are god's gift to this game, you're just like everyone else, you enter a tourney only to give your money to PC chris/KDJ/M2K. I just want to let it be known that the rest of rochester's smash community doesn't condone anything jesiah said, and for the most part we are a fun bunch of people to smash with. We are actually having a big tourney in june, and anyone that can come out should, it is a fun time and you get to see that not all of WNY is full of scrubs (don't get me wrong, they're are some here), but I promise that anyone coming here will be happy with our smash community. We love competition and welcome any new smashers to play with us.

Jesiah, I'll take your challenge, but how much do i get for beating your marth with my roy?

 

[Emblem Lord]

This thread can be closed now.

 

[Goodies]

Thanks so much that for comment Rick. Jesse you are new to this game and your ranting is annoying to us and people on Smashboards. Your top about Marth is something that has been said for years and people already understand Marth's weakness, how he should be played and reasons for his position in the tier list.

We've talked about this several times, you've talked to M2K about Marth on AIM and you've gotten feedback from several Marth mains on boards. There is a search function, USE IT! You are just getting redundant responses and it's annoying people. As Rick stated earlier, please leave our crew out of your nonsense. Our crew consist of Yannick, Gamefreak, Haruka, Pika Pika and myself (Goodies). YOU ARE NOT APART OF OUR CREW! We all consider ourselves good smashers who just want to have fun with the game in a competitive environment. We dont randomly pick fights with random smashers around the US and we always appreciate the challenge people have to offer us.

I think this thread should be closed because people shouldn't bear something that has been said like 20x over. In summary, Marth is a great character and his position on the tier list is fairly accurate. It takes a considerable amount of talent and knowledge of every matchup to be successful at high levels of play. As Cactuar mentioned, he has good combo potential, but you control your DI and follow your opponents in order to correctly perform those while ending in a specific finisher (e.g., fsmash, tilts, dair). You got your answer from me for the 100th time. Stop annoying people!

 

[Shai Hulud]

Wow, WNY is full of asshats, and I don't mean Jesiah.

 

[PikaPika!]

Wow, WNY is full of asshats, and I don't mean Jesiah.

Go Fu ck yourself.

 

[JBM falcon08]

although cactuar and others have made interesting posts, why does this really matter?

those who complain about marth's position on the tier list care to much imo, if u want him higher, just play better.

 

[gamefreak2006]

We are not full of asshats, granted we do have our share of them, but find me a place that doesn't have them and I will move there within the week. I just wish people would actually play us/talk with us before making assumptions about our community.

 

[Deleted member]

my two cents
anyone can be top, it is just average people cannot get around certain things
look at sheik, sh could be top tier if she had a side b or down b.

Marth howver hass some weaknesses that people prefer not to deal with.
Them being
he cannot do much in the air
floaty is much a pro as a con in contrast to fast fall
sheik
no projectile- which forces defensive manuvers plus approach attacks, which he does not have
his mistakes impact more
defensive game sucks aside from spacing
no lasting moves such as falco's nair
sheik
even good people like ken says that you need a backup fox to cover you cause of some matchups
matchups affect moreo on gameplay
bad at close up
hard to get into the "sweet spot"(not tipper)
you cant just throw random attacks
sheik
you leave yourself open in the air then it is easy for say- sheik to just slap you
recovery is mediocre
you cant "feel" the hit against your foe when you attack

 

[firexemblemxpryde]

I'm not so sure how the concentration of asshatted-ness in Rochester is relevant to why Marth isn't top tier. I feel that the creator of the thread made this thread to state his own opinion, and hopefully receive some intelligent feedback. This has been the case, and maybe those who aren't yet as insightful may learn something.

So far, people have been saying that Marth can't be top-tier because he has too many shortcomings. Given. However, a contributing factor could be that characters like Fox are "too good".

I disagree... whole-heartedly with the statement that Marth has more potential than Fox. This is just not the case. "Adventure" and "Perfect Control" show some good examples where Fox is was just created God-tier. Marth, although extremely effective at very high levels of play, is limited. Fox is not nearly as held back. Even someone like Ken who plays Marth almost perfectly (within human reach), will lose to a very good Sheik or Fox.

"Perfect" spacing, great range, it's all nice. However, perfect potential is just better.

The learning curve for Marth is huge... I remember starting off as a newer player and I thought I could beat up all the cute space animals. They were, after all, "easy to combo". Not so... my first tournament I was owned so hard I swore to train up my Marth to murder space animals.

I tried. I somewhat succeeded, I can hold my own. But guess what? Against a GOOD Fox, there is just very little Marth can do. I play Fox against Fox, because it's just a lot easier to win.

Marth cannot be Top Tier because Fox has to be.

Marth cannot be 2nd best because very few (if anyone) people can use Marth at top levels of play and succeed consistently.

Marth cannot be Top tier because other high tiers have advantages on him. Sheik (3rd) , Fox (1st), and Falcon (6th) are some examples. Additionally, he goes even at best with Falco (2nd). At the pro-level, the counter between Marth and Peach becomes significantly smaller.

Conclusion: at "perfect" levels Marth was not created to be top tier.
at "human peak" levels, Marth is incredibly hard to play well, and he still faces the roadblocks which are his counters.

 

[ToP CaT]

This thread can be closed now.

quoted for truth

 

[Mew2King]

I mean, none of you guys really know what you're talking about


Sheik has a good advantage over Marth in many aspects

Falcon has the advantage over Marth because of DD camping and reliable KOs

Marth vs Falco is even unless Falco massively laser camps

Marth vs Fox is even unless Fox massively laser camps and DD grab camps

Marth ***** Peach even at high level play, people just suck at it cuz they don't know what they are doing, but I know what I'm doing and Marth definitely has a good advantage

 

[UMBC Super Smasher]

I mean, none of you guys really know what you're talking about


Sheik has a good advantage over Marth in many aspects

Falcon has the advantage over Marth because of DD camping and reliable KOs

Marth vs Falco is even unless Falco massively laser camps

Marth vs Fox is even unless Fox massively laser camps and DD grab camps

Marth ***** Peach even at high level play, people just suck at it cuz they don't know what they are doing, but I know what I'm doing and Marth definitely has a good advantage

Come teach me this Saturday so I know what I'm talking about :D

In other words, sheik has the most advantage on marth. Falcon has an advantage on marth as well but not to the extent of sheik. Falco and fox are both better if played gay. Peach sucks. Thus, vs marth:

Sheik > falcon > (falco/fox) >= marth > peach

 

[Emblem Lord]

Who gives two ****s about his character match ups? He's not top because there are 3 characters that are better then him.

 

[JBM falcon08]

ignore this post plz.

 

[Emblem Lord]

This thread has been over since yesterday at 9:26 pm.

 

[Roche_CL]

Well, I think this thread is like subjective, but I will give just my opinnion.
Fox and Falco can spam not only lasers but aerials and shine, which makes marth life very sad. For him to beat them, relies on mind games, DD and spacing. Combos are hard to set up against them, cause more experienced players know the correct DI. If marth starts waiting for them to aproach the can simply spam lasers. If he aproaches they can predict and land a simple hit wich will land on many other hits x_X. Chain grabs for marth only work good on Final Destination, but it's not just good for Marth because the stage is long and they spam.
Shield grabs are almost gone with the help of shines.., Marth becomes scared of shieldgrabing because any shine (fox or falco) will lead into something nasty.

What I wanted to say, is that marth is overpassed in the technique aspect, and is equaled in the abilities to mind game (specialy due to his long DD). That makes him be a little disadvantaged on fights, and IMO if you play a falco or fox that don't commit mistakes, you can't win, you can say "well, any character that don't commit mistakes will win", but I think that some things aren't peoples fault
for example: Ganondorf is protecting himslef against falcos lasers, if he jumps, he will be predicted and comboed, if he dont jump he will finaly end lowering his shield and/or being damaged by the lasers and finaly comboed. He didn't make any mistakes, he was just overwhelmed by the ability of the other character.
I think marth is likely in that position, but has more weapons to deal against them.

 

[Deleted member]

everyone is almost saying the same things, except some random people who are just ...there

 

[UMBC Super Smasher]

first of all... ken plays marth the best out of any pro including kdj, m2k, husband or neo, and he says cf vs marth is in marths favor 60 to 40, watch the match of azen vs isai on youtube when they play DL64.

m2k by no means am i saying you don't know what your talking about bcuz maybe you just don't play against falcon as well as ken does, but i'm going to take ken's word on this, although its really personal preference and experience that will make a person decide.

i don't play anywhere near the level you do but ken does, so i can refer to ken saying that cf vs marth is 60/40 marth. that and ken knows marth inside out, for god sakes he made marth.

sheik>marth=fox/falco>falcon>peach.

Wrong. You have it the other way around; Ken said it's 60/40 in Falcon's favor, and it's funny as Chillin says cause as Ken commentates about falcon's advantage, Azen is beating Isai. M2K and Ken agree on falcon vs marth.

 

[JBM falcon08]

^ you are right, i didn't hear him right my mistake.

 

[Rock Lobsta]

Well its a good thing you didnt say the same thing over and over in your explanation.

 

[thebluedeath1000]

Marth isn't top tier for a simple reason, he doesn't have a laser pistol, that simple.

 

[x4FoSho4x]

Marth isn't top tier for a simple reason, he doesn't have a laser pistol, that simple.

ok falco should def. be moved to high tier bc of his recovery. shiek was always top tier and did she have a "laser pistol" nooooooooooooooooo. about marth being top tier. idk. i have mixed feelings about it. but he could be. idk if he should be.

 

[thebluedeath1000]

Turn on your sarcasm meter fo sho, marth isn't top tier due to people not playing him in tournys and winning them, they are using spacies.

 

[ToP CaT]

Turn on your sarcasm meter fo sho, marth isn't top tier due to people not playing him in tournys and winning them, they are using spacies.

truest statement everrr

 

[~Tac~]

JesighTEG, are you going to MLG Grassroots? I'll be there, along with a bunch of other MD/VA players.

Shame I can't be there, I'm like 20minutes away. ._.

 

[Cactuar]

I mean. Someone should close this thread. Good players have already answered the question. (If you think I mean you, you are wrong.)

 

[~Tac~]

I mean. Someone should close this thread. Good players have already answered the question. (If you think I mean you, you are wrong.)

Rofl. xD

What if I DIDN'T think it was me? Would I be good then?
Lol, jk. I wish.

 

[Eggm]

Teir list should go
God tier : Marth
top teir : Fox sheik
High teir : Falco then peach/falcon

 

[~Tac~]

Teir list should go
God tier : Marth
top teir : Fox sheik
High teir : Falco then peach/falcon

God tier. xD

Shiek belongs in the "Cheap Tier". >_>

 

[Cactuar]

Eggm belongs in the "GTFO of this forum" Tier.

But seriously, just because M2K ***** your soul with Marth, doesn't mean Marth is ridiculously better than everything else. The top 4 characters are pretty close as far as ranking goes, but the current tier list is pretty accurate as far as their positions go.

 

[Inevitable]

I think Marth could have more potential than all the other characters because of his range, I mean if someone were to master Marth's range how on earth could you physically hit him?

 

[Deleted member]

I would have to agree overall that marth is better than falco. While both characters are virtually impossible to approach, falco only has 1 disjointed hitbox attack that he can abuse (laser) and doing it close up certainly isn't a good idea. Falco also dies from more or less anything from my experience. On the flip side, all of marth's attacks are disjointed, and he can take some form of punishment, and doesn't die from a backthrow @ 0 from most characters. Marth also has an extremely abusable dashdance game, and can grab fox out of every single attack he has, and every single attack sheik has aside from the chain.

Most Fox players also use Marth due to his relative ease of play. Even though Fox has much more muscle memory, Marth is overall easier to play. Remember kids, a marth that doesn't jump can't be approached.

I will admit though that Fox can be the gayest piece of **** in the wrong hands.

 

[Cactuar]

I heart Mow.

*tears heart from chest, sprays blood on everyone*

(lawl, I'm a cactus, I don't need a heart)

 

[spoonyd]

I would have to agree overall that marth is better than falco. While both characters are virtually impossible to approach, falco only has 1 disjointed hitbox attack that he can abuse (laser) and doing it close up certainly isn't a good idea. Falco also dies from more or less anything from my experience. On the flip side, all of marth's attacks are disjointed, and he can take some form of punishment, and doesn't die from a backthrow @ 0 from most characters. Marth also has an extremely abusable dashdance game, and can grab fox out of every single attack he has, and every single attack sheik has aside from the chain.

Most Fox players also use Marth due to his relative ease of play. Even though Fox has much more muscle memory, Marth is overall easier to play. Remember kids, a marth that doesn't jump can't be approached.

I will admit though that Fox can be the gayest piece of **** in the wrong hands.

I definitely agree to an extent. It takes a lot more technical skill to really get the most out of Fox. However IMO Marth is one of the hardest characters in the game to actually master due to his wide variety of matchups. Sure Marth has some really sick combos that we see on videos but that's a LOT of experience going into getting those to work. Spacing, reading DI, knowing matchups etc is just a LOT to learn for a character heavily dependent on situational decisions and a multi-dimensional approach to each match.

 

[Cactuar]

That's funny... I thought they were just swinging their swords randomly.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Spoonyd: I'm impressed. I didn't think there were many smart Marth players left. You have given me hope.

Mow: Marth may be better, but I doubt it. And besides, Falco has the best approach in the game. Marth has good shield trap guessing games, but Falco has the best shield pressure game out of everyone. His pillaring is too good, and it lets him take control of the fight. Marth has no such techniques that allow him to have such a powerful grip on the battle. I think Falco's approach edges out Marth, which allows him to be a slightly better character.