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Why Marth Isn't Top Tier

spoonyd

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 17, 2007
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174
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Spoonyd: I'm impressed. I didn't think there were many smart Marth players left. You have given me hope.

Mow: Marth may be better, but I doubt it. And besides, Falco has the best approach in the game. Marth has good shield trap guessing games, but Falco has the best shield pressure game out of everyone. His pillaring is too good, and it lets him take control of the fight. Marth has no such techniques that allow him to have such a powerful grip on the battle. I think Falco's approach edges out Marth, which allows him to be a slightly better character.
You shouldn't be very impressed. I just started TRYING to be competitive like a month ago. I read your posts all the time and you have a way better understanding of things than I do.
 

Cactuar

El Fuego
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Lol. Emblem Lord doesn't actually know anything. He just likes to talk like he does. :laugh:

Just kidding. Despite liking **** girls, EL is an OK guy. *Cheesy Thumbs Up*
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Mow: Marth may be better, but I doubt it. And besides, Falco has the best approach in the game. Marth has good shield trap guessing games, but Falco has the best shield pressure game out of everyone. His pillaring is too good, and it lets him take control of the fight. Marth has no such techniques that allow him to have such a powerful grip on the battle. I think Falco's approach edges out Marth, which allows him to be a slightly better character.
Marth isn't supposed to approach falco, he's supposed to eat a laser and grab him. Marth also isn't supposed to sit there and let his shield get *****. Falco's legs are his defense. You can say the same about the sword, but marth doesn't get chaingrabbed 0 to death by half the cast, marth doesn't have backthrow death at 10%, and marth actually has a recovery that covers visible distance.

Falco's approaches aren't broken either. If I can beat Reik's falco on FD with Zelda by doing powershield to grab on his lasers, you can certainly do something with marth.
 

Emblem Lord

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Mow: I'm sensing some aggression in your post. I could be wrong. Relax man. We have differing opinions. I see you editted that part of your post that said I needed to look at the how to play video before I can debate with you. Good. I wouldn't expect that kind of blatant condescending attitude from someone who I invited into my mother's home.

BTW I never said that Falco's approach is broken. And as for you and Riek. lol. Let us not forget you ARE better then me. ^_^ And also, I never said Marth gets completely ***** by Falco. I was stating in general why Falco is good. You just happend to take what I said and relate it back to Marth. Which btw wouldn't prove that Marth is better then Falco. It would just prove that Marth has tricks up in his sleeve in dealing with Falco.

Anyway, I'm not trying to argue with you. I actually do like you.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Mow: I'm sensing some agression in your post. I could be wrong. Relax man. We have differing opinions. Isee you editted thgat part of your post that said I needed to look at the how to play video before I can deabte with you. Good. I wouldn't expect that kind of blatant condescending attitude from someone who I invited into my mother's home.

BTW I never said that Falco's approacch is broken. And as for you and Riek. lol. Let us not forget you ARE better then me. ^_^ And also, I never said Marth gets completely ***** by Falco. I' was stating in genrally why Falco is good. You just happend to take what I said and relate it back to Marth. Which btw wouldn't prove that Marth is better then Falco. It would just prove that Marth has tricks up in his sleeve in dealing with Falco.

Anyway, I'm not trying to argue with you. I actually do like you.
I mistook you for someone else with the same avatar. No hate. While I'm here, review time!

falco's matches
loses to: ?
even with:
peach
samus
fox
marth
sheik
doc
beats: everyone else easily

marth's matches:
loses to: sheik I guess
even with: falcon, falco
beats: everyone else handily.

I'm always aggressive with marth. I hate him, plain and simple. I hate it the most when marth players complain about characters they blatantly outrange and can deathgrab easily (see: every other non-sheik character), or when marth players complain that their character, who is completely unapproachable unless he's landing from the air, is somehow not good enough.
 

Omni

You can't break those cuffs.
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Speed, manueveribility, and control are the most important aspects when trying to determine a character's skill level. Just looking at Marth, Fox, Falco, and Sheik:

Speed is what it says. How fast the character moves at its max.
Manueveribility is how well a character can place themselves in whatever location.
Control (opponent) is how well that person can manipulate the opponent.
Control (you) is how well you can manipulated by the opponent.

Fox and Falco fall extremely short simply because they can be chaingrabbed, combo'ed, whatever to death or to very large percents. Their speed or ability to manuever cannot cover such a large weakness.

Sheik, imo, has a lot of everything, but not as well as Marth.

Against high tiers, Marth ultimately combo's the best and chaingrabs the best. In the 4 areas mentioned above, he's stacked in every area except for being controlled by his opponent. It's up to you to decide if you think Fox's up-throw to up-air or Sheik's d-throw to f-air is better then Marth's chaingrabbing or f-air chaining (in my opinion, Marth wins in that area).

Marth also has the longest range with very small lag time. Range falls under the category of control (opponent) for obvious reasons. I mean, once you become really skilled at this game, you start to realize that Marth doesn't have any MAJOR weakness. Keyword: Major.
 

Emblem Lord

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People hype Marth up too much. >_>

He doesn't deserve any where near as much hate as the space animals.

Mow: Marth goes even with Fox.
 

Inevitable

Smash Apprentice
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Apr 25, 2007
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Marth isn't top tier due to the fact that the number of space animals out number the average amount of Marths that are actually winning some tournies.
 

Brightside6382

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Marth isn't top tier cause he aint top tier material. He's laggy, gots no proj, gots really only 1 KO move, can't KO well, and only gots 2 good colors. If anything Marth should be moved down on the tier list either above or below Mewtwo cause he's one of the WORST characters in teh gamzors :p. (Along with Gannon)
 

Emblem Lord

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My sarcasm detector is confizzled. You mixed in some truth into that post Brightside. No fair!

But either way, lol@ him not being able to KO well.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
marth needs SHL and a better fastfall so he can just be banned already.
 

Reese

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As mentioned above, marth has several weaknesses - his reliance on edgegaurding to kill, lack of projectile, and his speed.


Marth's primary killers are his dair and fsmash. Both these moves have to be setuped in order to work (eg. out of a combo or cg). However, marth's combos are reliant on %.If a marth's opponent reaches a high percent, marth can no longer combo them and finish them. He has to rely on edgeguarding to kill them at high percents. All other top charactors in smash don't have this problem. Fox has usmash, uair, and his homosexual shine spike. Falco has his dair, bair, and his dsmash. Sheik has fair, bair and her dsmash. Marth's ko moves have to setuped.

Marth has no projectile. He is forced to approach his opponent. In this way, any charactor that has a solid projectile holds a degree of control over marth. Fox, Falco, and sheik all have projectiles, so they can projectile spam if they dont like the situation. Marth cant do these, he is almost always forced to approach.

All the other top charactors are quicker then marth, combined with their projectiles, they can projectile spam against marth very effectively. Additionally, their high speed makes it difficult for marth to space his attacks effectively. Once a charactor gets insides marth's range,hes screwed. Marth's range his largest asset, and quick charactors can negate this.

Basically, any charactor that either possesses good range, or a lot of speed, or a solid projectile does good versus marth. They are quite a few charactors that possess these attributes(or some of them), such as sheik, falco, fox, ganon, link, just to name a few.

Space animals can combo nearly any charactor in smash very well at nearly any percent. They have a good projectile and are very fast so they can manipulate their opponent, and they have no real problems killing their opponents at any percent (stupid gay fox with his gay shine). Because of their solid offense, and their solid defense they perform well against all charactors in melee, and have to no real bad matchups. Their only real weakness is their vulnerabilty to grab combos.

Same with sheik. All her attacks lead to her fair, she has an excellent projectile, and has a lot of speed. Again, she has no bad matchups (except for IC's)

Marth possesses weaknesses that the other top charactors dont have, and that is why he belongs where he is on the tier list IMO.
 

REDRAGON

Smash Ace
Joined
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Messages
831
Fox and Falco have no weakness??? Are you crazy??!?!?
They get comboed like crap. Think chain grap by over half the charactors in SSBM.
Yes Marth has weakness but Fox and Falco are VERY light and are VERY easy to edgeguard AND THEY GET COMBOED SOOO EASY!!!
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Basically, any charactor that either possesses good range, or a lot of speed, or a solid projectile does good versus marth. They are quite a few charactors that possess these attributes(or some of them), such as sheik, falco, fox, ganon, link, just to name a few.
*insert barf @ ganon doing well vs marth*

You have too much in your post to actually fix. I want to meet the ganon player that does well vs marth.
 

Brightside6382

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Fox and Falco have no weakness??? Are you crazy??!?!?
They get comboed like crap. Think chain grap by over half the charactors in SSBM.
Yes Marth has weakness but Fox and Falco are VERY light and are VERY easy to edgeguard AND THEY GET COMBOED SOOO EASY!!!
Who cares if they get combo'd like crap which two chars do you consistently see at the top at tourney's? He was simply trying to state while Fox and Falco still have some slight weaknesses Marth has much much MUCH more that he has to cover.

Also anyone with Marth at the top of "their" tier list is obviously in denial.

*insert barf @ ganon doing well vs marth*

You have too much in your post to actually fix. I want to meet the ganon player that does well vs marth.
Please state what in his post was wrong. Most of what he said was true, Marth has very limited KO moves, Marth lacks any kinda of projectile, Marth is laggy and easily punishable, and Marth has trouble killing at high % because he can no longer combo.

Also Gannon vs Marth is a debatable match up. Some think Marth have the advantage, some think its even and others think its Gannons adv. Personally I think its slightly to Marths favor but I can see why others would think otherwise.

I like how you just shot down his post without even providing any of your own reasoning. I should try it sometime, it looks easy.
 

REDRAGON

Smash Ace
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Messages
831
wow. Since when is Marth laggy??!?!?!
Try L-canceling

Marth cons:
No projectile
Hard to kill enemys at higher%

Fox/Falco cons:
Recovery can be caped/spiked/ destroyed with little effort
Very light which means death early on
Can be chain grabed by many charactors and all other combos do more % to them

Which is worse my friend???
Marth>Falco/Fox
 

Brightside6382

Smash Lord
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wow. Since when is Marth laggy??!?!?!
Try L-canceling

Marth cons:
No projectile
Hard to kill enemys at higher%

Fox/Falco cons:
Recovery can be caped/spiked/ destroyed with little effort
Very light which means death early on
Can be chain grabed by many charactors and all other combos do more % to them

Which is worse my friend???
Marth>Falco/Fox
I dunno when Marth started to be laggy, maybe when the game was created? Just a guess.

Marth is a laggy character, get over it. All his moves have slow startup when being compared to characters above or below, and also have slow recovery. Ever wonder why spacing and precision is so important with Marth? Yea he's laggy and easy to punish thats why.

GJ only listing a fraction of his cons Ill go into more detail then

Cons
No projectile
Hard to kill enemys at higher%
floaty (1/2 the cast combo's Marth like its their job)
limited KO moves
very bad top-bottom game
recovery is very predictable (Light shield isn't helping it either)
little to no fast start up moves

In no way am I saying he is a bad character, all I'm trying to do is point out his flaws which are much harder to cover then the space animals flaws.
 

REDRAGON

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 11, 2007
Messages
831
I dunno when Marth started to be laggy, maybe when the game was created? Just a guess.

Marth is a laggy character, get over it. All his moves have slow startup when being compared to characters above or below, and also have slow recovery. Ever wonder why spacing and precision is so important with Marth? Yea he's laggy and easy to punish thats why.

GJ only listing a fraction of his cons Ill go into more detail then

Cons
No projectile
Hard to kill enemys at higher%
floaty (1/2 the cast combo's Marth like its their job)
limited KO moves
very bad top-bottom game
recovery is very predictable (Light shield isn't helping it either)
little to no fast start up moves

In no way am I saying he is a bad character, all I'm trying to do is point out his flaws which are much harder to cover then the space animals flaws.


Your cons are right EXCEPT:
Floaty is not a con, what half of the cast combos him??? Are you talking SSBM??
Recovery is predicable as is all of them but Marth has his Side B which is a HUGE mind game tool
Very bad top-bottom??? If this means he is not good coming down or attacking up then you NEED to learn up-tilt, and his Dair/spike...
Marths move come out VERY fast you fool! Why do you think you can get 2 f-air in 1 shot hop?!?!?!

BTW spacing is important with Marth because of his tippers not his lag fool lol. How long have you been playin???
 

shadydentist

Smash Lord
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@brightside, I don't think "laggy" is the right word. I understand what you're saying, and I agree. His close range game is not very good, because he doesn't have any moves that come out fast. Relatively speaking, his jab is slow, Forward B is slow, and while upB is fast, its only good at high percentages.

Laggy does, however, describe hits tilts and smashes very well. If you miss any of those, there is a substantial window for your opponent to punish you.

Therefore (@ reddragon) Brightside has a good point. Spacing is also important because once you're opponents get inside of you, you don't have too many options.
 

firexemblemxpryde

Smash Lord
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Dec 20, 2005
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Burnaby, BC
Redragon; I've been playing Marth since I started playing Melee. That was about a year and 5 months ago. I thought he was uber fast, awesome to combo with, and almost a flawless character. I've learned better.

Marth's moveset -is- laggy in general. If his attack connects, however, there is not enough lag to prevent a combo from being started. When playing against people who know what they are doing, to mess up with Marth is to take at LEAST 30%. Do this at 90%+ and expect to die.

He is severely punished when he messes up. Example:

Marth and Sheik aren't friends. They are fighting each other in SSBM.
Sheik is dashdancing, trying to get an attack past Marth's range.
Marth forward smashes. Sheik blocks, because she more or less saw it coming.
Sheik wavedashes out of the shield towards Marth, and grabs him in his lag. Downthrow, downthrow, ftilt (or utilt), ftilt, fair. This is all with DI, mind you. If there is crappy air DI, it will go uair->fair. Marth receives 40% or more, just because he went for a fsmash.

Another example.

Marth and Fox aren't friends. They are fighting each other in SSBM.
Marth is dashdancing, trying to get a grab at fox to SOMEHOW kill him.
He goes for a grab, but misses. Fox grabs him in his lag. Uthrow, uair, uair. Easy 30%. Say this was on battlefield, at 0%. Uthrow uair, uair, uair. Then, if lucky, the marth will DI off the stage, and now it's a question of edgeguarding.

Once anyone is right beside Marth, he might as well bend over, because a jab, shine, downsmash or (insert non-ganon utilt move here) is going to get him before he utilts or grabs. A smart player will make it a move that combo's, such as Falco's shine or Doc's dthrow.

His shffl game is decent... but even with shorthop double fair (a supposedly fast maneuver) is easily grabbed or stopped in the lag between the fairs. Because he has no projectile, he will often be forced to make the approach, and now he somehow has to start a combo against someone who is:

a) ready to shield grab his dash attack
b) anticipating a grab
c) waiting to receive a shffl and instead counter in the moment that marth is right beside him.

Now, I like marth, and I think he's a great character, but it must be noted that playing marth at higher levels of play is a risk. You have to know your stuff; you have to not mess up. Other than that he's a pretty hot guy.
 

Aesir

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Your cons are right EXCEPT:
Floaty is not a con, what half of the cast combos him??? Are you talking SSBM??
Hmm where to start? First floaty is double edge sword. being floaty means you're in the air longer you don't want to be in the air longer. you're open, and don't say shffl lulz cause even with shuffling if you're using a rising fair and it misses chances are you might get hit. using a falling fair is probably safer but you're still in the air for a period of time where getting hit is possible out come.

secondly: Characters that combo him.

Falco
Fox
Link
Marth
CF
Ganon
Sheik

random low tiers might be able to combo him too, but no one really uses them. >.>:



Recovery is predicable as is all of them but Marth has his Side B which is a HUGE mind game tool
Get out now go to a tourney and learn to play this game. this part made me gag cry and sterile all at once.


Very bad top-bottom??? If this means he is not good coming down or attacking up then you NEED to learn up-tilt, and his Dair/spike..
eh no idea what he was talking about but Marth as almost no priority below or behind him its all above and infront of him. Dair is to laggy and if it misses you'll get hit and possibly Die. .


Marths move come out VERY fast you fool! Why do you think you can get 2 f-air in 1 shot hop?!?!?!
its not cause hes fast, its because he floats in the air.

BTW spacing is important with Marth because of his tippers not his lag fool lol. How long have you been playin???
Spacing is pretty much the only way to not get grabbed because marths arials have lag.

how long have you been playing 5 minutes? >_>
 

Emblem Lord

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Marth's moves do come out fast. But the other top 5's moves come out a little faster.

Here is the thing.

Fox is good.
Falco is good.
Shiek is good.
Marth is good.
Peach is good.

H*ll CF, Samus, and IC's are good too.

Who cares what tier he is in? It won't chage the fact that he is good.

This thread has gotten way too much attention. Alot more then it deserved. It needs to be closed. I think it's just distracting the Marth community from more intelligent discussion. Any good Marth knows why he isn't top tier.
 

JesiahTEG

Smash Master
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Thank you everybody. My intention of this thread was to receive information on why Marth isn't top tier, and hopefully get a better understanding of Marth's weaknesses. To conclude this thread, I'll display everything I've learned from this thread.

-Marth used to be top tier only because the potential of fox and falco had not yet been discovered
-Space animals have no bad matchups
-A mistake by marth can be punished easier than mistakes made by the other top 3
-Requires less muscle memory than fox and falco, and more actual thinking
-Marth has a lot of bad low tier matchups, including Yoshi, Ganon, and G&W
-He has no godly approach
-Bigger learning curve than the other top 3
-Always needs to hit with the tip of his sword, which against good people is hard to do
-Sheik has a good advantage over marth in many aspects
-Falcon has the advantage over Marth because of DD camping and reliable KO’s
-Needles and Lasers **** Marth
-It’s hard for Marth to KO characters at higher percents
-Even if Marth DI’s sheik’s grabs the right way, they still mess him up
-Marth's attacks come out slower than the other top 3

Thanks to everyone. I really did learn a lot. A lot more than I expected. I will take all of this information into consideration during the development of my Marth. Thanks again.
 

REDRAGON

Smash Ace
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Feb 11, 2007
Messages
831
I find it strange that people think Marth is a bad close range charactor.
He has the best grab range in the game(Besides extended which is crap because of lag)
With the best grab he is very good close range. Sure Sheik, Fox/Falco may be better, but NEVER say marth has no close range.....

My final point is this:
Marth has weaknesses. NONE of them are huge enough that when you fight a Marth you think "Oh better start a grab so i can chaingrab" or "Get him off the edge for an EASY edgeguard"

Fox and Falco have a HUGH weakness: Once you start a chaingrab/combo IT DESTROYS them!!!

The best in the game cannot have a big weakness. That is all.....
 

Aesir

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My final point is this:
Marth has weaknesses. NONE of them are huge enough that when you fight a Marth you think "Oh better start a grab so i can chaingrab" or "Get him off the edge for an EASY edgeguard"

Fox and Falco have a HUGH weakness: Once you start a chaingrab/combo IT DESTROYS them!!!

The best in the game cannot have a big weakness. That is all.....
Theres this thing called DI its really cool.


fox and falco also have this thing where they can't be grabbed easily its cool too, just thought I'd throw that out there.
 

REDRAGON

Smash Ace
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Messages
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Aesir chill out dude....You seem to be gettin mad when i thought we were just debating......
But i guess its useless debating since i am 100% Marth is the best and you are 100% sure Fox is the best. So yeah i am stoping now..
 

REDRAGON

Smash Ace
Joined
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Messages
831
ok
btw i have been to a tounament as Samus. I had no trouble with Fox and Falcos. My hardest match-up were Ganon and Marth by far(Could just be Samus though)
 

Brightside6382

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eh no idea what he was talking about but Marth as almost no priority below or behind him its all above and infront of him. Dair is to laggy and if it misses you'll get hit and possibly Die. .
I worded it pretty bad but you pretty much said exactly what I was trying to get at.

ReDragon I'm assuming you lack tourney experience against players of higher caliber. Go play at a tourney sir and see how much you **** Fox/Falco's with chaingrabs and combo's.

Theres this thing called DI its really cool.
DI is a myth sir
 

Velox

Smash Ace
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Marth's position on the tier list has nothing to do with how good he is. It's a popularity contest, which he lost. I dunno though, I see more Marths these days than anything... hmmm...

The tier list is constantly contredicting itself though, I mean wtf, how is Doc higher on the tier list than Jigglypuff? How many Doctor Marios do we see in major tournaments such as MLGs? I haven't even seen Caveman play Doc in almost a year.
 

Dark Sonic

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It's seriously hard to grab a good Fox or Falco because they cover themselves after an L-canceled aerial with a shine to your face. If you attempt a grab you get shined and then combo'd You'll never just run up and grab them cause they'll just dash out and back in to **** you after a missed grab.
 
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