Why do we NOT ban Ice Climber Chain Grabs?

[Albert.]

This thread has convinced me that they shouldn't be banned. MK too.

Next time I face an IC in tourney I am gonna pick Pit, spam arrows, run away alot, and time them out.

 

[LanceStern]

Please don't group the members of swf together into one bunch. We are not trying to ban stuff pre-emptively all the time. There's a reason why the MK ban debate was polled 4 times.

And at the end of the day who gets to decide what's banned and what's not?

Not the SBR, it's the tournament organisers.

At the end of the day, the SBR can only make suggestions. Recommendations.

People outside smashboards seems to think the SBR it has its finger on the smash scene when it's really not true at all.

To be fair he said SWF not SBR

 

[cutter]

How would one even enforce a ban on the ICs chaingrabs to begin with? There are a virtually limitless amount of variations and combinations to mix and match with them.

The only surefire way I can think of enforcing a ban on ICs chaingrabs is to just ban them from grabbing altogether lol.

 

[coen4]

Three reasons:

1) Their chaingrabs are limited when separated (which some characters can do easily)

2) The chaingrabs involved take a ton of skill to do consistently.

3) Their pitiful grab range.


Quite a few characters can get around their chaingrab quite easily. And besides, their infinites weren't banned in Melee, so why should they be banned in Brawl?

Now, if they had DDD's grab range, they'd probably be broken...l

exactly and anywayz falco can chain grab to the edge and spike tons with other characters =P

 

[Ramzehz]

To be fair he said SWF not SBR

You're right. I can't read.

 

[Rad Riardos]

I do too. I've fought a few IC chaingrabbers who've dealt an annoying amount of damage to me or have done that pathetic grab spike crap at the edge of the map.

If you have to have so much skill to pull off chain grabs, how come they don't use that skill to take down their opponent fairly?

 

[swordgard]

I do too. I've fought a few IC chaingrabbers who've dealt an annoying amount of damage to me or have done that pathetic grab spike crap at the edge of the map.

If you have to have so much skill to pull off chain grabs, how come they don't use that skill to take down their opponent fairly?

You obviously havent read the whole thread and should stop attempting to reply answers like this which have no factual valus but rather repose on nothing else but your mere opinion with which you will never be able to convince anyone.


On another note, why do i have to deal snake twice the damage he deals me when im ics. Its not fair!

 

[Level 10]

They say its ALMOST Broken. I think its Really Broken. I hope they give that chain grab banned

 

[swordgard]

Read the whole thread before making a post like this level10, ics dont win tourney and we gave plenty of arguments why it should not be banned.



They represents nobody really, also saying something is broken without bringing any proof just shows how little thought you gave the subject you are not really willing to argue. If you want to post here, bring some logic and not just some biased opinion with no facts to back it up.

 

[rathy Aro]

Please don't group the members of swf together into one bunch. We are not trying to ban stuff pre-emptively all the time. There's a reason why the MK ban debate was polled 4 times.

And at the end of the day who gets to decide what's banned and what's not?

Not the SBR, it's the tournament organisers.

At the end of the day, the SBR can only make suggestions. Recommendations.

People outside smashboards seems to think the SBR it has its finger on the smash scene when it's really not true at all.

on my wii so i keep my posts as short as i can. >.>

i'm just wondering y some ppl would want 2 ban something when they no its not ****** yet. TOs have been banning ic infinites b4 ppl could even do them consistently. i just don't see the urgency.

 

[fullynick]

I do too. I've fought a few IC chaingrabbers who've dealt an annoying amount of damage to me or have done that pathetic grab spike crap at the edge of the map.

If you have to have so much skill to pull off chain grabs, how come they don't use that skill to take down their opponent fairly?

I hate to sound cliche but....

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/prologue.html

really, read it before you say anything else

 

[Apollo$]

No johns, learn to space better

 

[feardragon64]

I do too. I've fought a few IC chaingrabbers who've dealt an annoying amount of damage to me or have done that pathetic grab spike crap at the edge of the map.

If you have to have so much skill to pull off chain grabs, how come they don't use that skill to take down their opponent fairly?

Whose definition of fair are you using? My definition of fair as of now is that you aren't allowed to uses your c-stick because it's unfair. Why don't you stop using your c-stick against me and win against me fairly. Oh and shielding is unfair. Play fairly.

Telling people to limit their options to win to demonstrate their skill is ********. It's no different from me saying that shielding is unfair. Unless you want to defend the stance that what's fair is defined by that which the game developers intended, which you REALLY REALLY don't, then I suggest you stop shielding and using the c-stick at your next tournament....or suck it up and LEARN THE MATCH-UP.

 

[LanceStern]

I'm really not in the mood for arguing anymore, but all you people that keep saying "Prove it's broken" or "make an argument as why it's broken" we already are.

We work our butts off doing damage and ONE SINGLE grab by an Ice Climber user is an instant KO no matter the percentage. I don't care if I outplay them tthe entire stock... one grab it's over. And there's no mashing, no DI, no spacing (once grabbed), anything you can do to stop to lose that stock, even from 0%.

Don't tell me about their horrible grab range.
One grab -> instant KO and all I can do is watch. That's broken.

This is from m2k himself. He chose to semi-stall one match. Mind you when he said this he was in a bad mood :

also Noraa it's a ledge grab rule, knowing that i avoided the ledge grab rule but that **** isn't even impossible to get around ice blocks can hit me. After getting CGed 3 times in a row one game I'm obviously not going to approach him like that anymore. Anything I do will get pivot grabbed and if he perfect shields tornado he gets either a CG to death or an Uair. All I can do is Dair there is nothing safe I can do that's what this stupid game comes down to in certain matchups unfortunately. And Btw that's the gayest by FAR I've ever played in tourney

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

I'm really not in the mood for arguing anymore, but all you people that keep saying "Prove it's broken" or "make an argument as why it's broken" we already are.

We work our butts off doing damage and ONE SINGLE grab by an Ice Climber user is an instant KO no matter the percentage. I don't care if I outplay them tthe entire stock... one grab it's over. And there's no mashing, no DI, no spacing (once grabbed), anything you can do to stop to lose that stock, even from 0%.

Don't tell me about their horrible grab range.
One grab -> instant KO and all I can do is watch. That's broken.

This is from m2k himself. He chose to semi-stall one match. Mind you when he said this he was in a bad mood :

^Approved.

There honestly needs to be a limit on the CGs.

"What if-"
No, shut up. Play by the rules. Period.

ICs may not have dominated any national tournies, but that's the IC players' faults for sandbagging so we don't see how ridiculuos they are. I've played my friend who uses ICs, and I hate him so much. He can't maintain the CG for my whole stock but it still screws me over when I'm 80% behind.

Edit: I'm basically johning here, but I wanna see a video of someone winning a SET against ICs when they had a 40-60 or worse disadvantage.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Normally I am not one to act elitist but...

ITT, scrubs complain about what they cant beat.
QQ moar

 

[Jim Morrison]

I'm really not in the mood for arguing anymore, but all you people that keep saying "Prove it's broken" or "make an argument as why it's broken" we already are.

We work our butts off doing damage and ONE SINGLE grab by an Ice Climber user is an instant KO no matter the percentage. I don't care if I outplay them tthe entire stock... one grab it's over. And there's no mashing, no DI, no spacing (once grabbed), anything you can do to stop to lose that stock, even from 0%.

Don't tell me about their horrible grab range.
One grab -> instant KO and all I can do is watch. That's broken.

This is from m2k himself. He chose to semi-stall one match. Mind you when he said this he was in a bad mood :

This whole post made me lol. IC just... Aren't like that. Players mess up, it's more often than not that they fail to CG an entire stock off.
Also, most IC players tend to want to kill you off at 110% to avoid messing up. With good mashing skills you mash out of it before they got that charged smash., believe me.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

I wanna see a video of someone winning a SET against ICs when they had a 40-60 or worse disadvantage.

Some1 help a brotha out here.

 

[Llumys]

This whole discussion is ridiculous.

No one's going to change their minds.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

Some1 help a brotha out here.

If the ICs have a 60:40 advatage or better, then the opponent shouldn't be winning anyway.

 

[MarthFanatique]

This whole discussion is ridiculous.

No one's going to change their minds.

Yeah, humans are things that are hard to convince. I mean, the CG is completely legit. If you can pull it off, then kudos to the IC main since it's ridiculously hard. Furthermore, like everyone is saying, if this is sooooo broken, then why isn't the tier list
1.) IC
2.) MK
3.) Snake

I mean seriously, come on! If IC's were broken then they wouldn't be ranked where they are. You could basically parallel this situation to the following example: Ike has "broken" KO power, he needs to be banned thus. His KO power is, yes, superb, but he has weaknesses and downfalls just like IC's. IC's have unimpressive grab range, and they can be desynched to completely resolve the problem (well, for most characters anyway). People need to get over themselves and quit johning.

 

[feardragon64]

I'm really not in the mood for arguing anymore, but all you people that keep saying "Prove it's broken" or "make an argument as why it's broken" we already are.

We work our butts off doing damage and ONE SINGLE grab by an Ice Climber user is an instant KO no matter the percentage. I don't care if I outplay them tthe entire stock... one grab it's over. And there's no mashing, no DI, no spacing (once grabbed), anything you can do to stop to lose that stock, even from 0%.

Don't tell me about their horrible grab range.
One grab -> instant KO and all I can do is watch. That's broken.

This is from m2k himself. He chose to semi-stall one match. Mind you when he said this he was in a bad mood :

Did you know that just ONE footstool can lead to a jab lock that can basically end up killing you? Just one footstool. Let's ban footstools. "All I can do is watch" as I get jab locked to kill percents and they finish me.
Did you know grabbing snake at the edge after he's used his cypher can result in an instant death? Just one grab at the edge. Let's ban grabbing snake when he's used his cypher. "All I can do is watch" as I plummet to my death.
Did you know ONE DDD's fsmash can kill you at ridiculously low percents? Just one fsmash. Let's ban fsmashes. "All I can do is watch" as I go flying across the screen at 30%.

Let's NOT figure out how not to get foostooled, NOT learn to recover high and avoid the grab, NOT learn how to not get hit by a DDD fsmash. Let's ban it instead.

You guys aren't proving ****. All you're doing is constantly complaining over and over again about how you get frustrated that you die when you get grabbed. Ignoring the fact that the most reputed IC mains screw up the CG, there hasn't been an outbreak of IC's beating the crap out of everyone. There's no PROOF. Real proof that shows it's broken. It's just, "oh it's unfair because I don't want to learn how to space."

To compare it to something else, it's like complaining about slam dunks in basketball. Deal with it.

 

[rathy Aro]

I'm really not in the mood for arguing anymore, but all you people that keep saying "Prove it's broken" or "make an argument as why it's broken" we already are.

We work our butts off doing damage and ONE SINGLE grab by an Ice Climber user is an instant KO no matter the percentage. I don't care if I outplay them tthe entire stock... one grab it's over. And there's no mashing, no DI, no spacing (once grabbed), anything you can do to stop to lose that stock, even from 0%.

Don't tell me about their horrible grab range.
One grab -> instant KO and all I can do is watch. That's broken.

This is from m2k himself. He chose to semi-stall one match. Mind you when he said this he was in a bad mood :

M2K also said he was mad when he made that post. And he *****es a lot. That's just M2K for you. XD

As I said before. Can you explain why it is so urgent that we ban IC infinites (or their grabs or them)? Can we at least let Meep win a major tourney first?

 

[Apollo$]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zh34akqsQvo

uhhh

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zh34akqsQvo

uhhh

Favoriting for being too funny.

Who's this ICs player, cause he/she didn't even seem to take the match seriously and was desperate for a grab.

 

[Crow!]

At one point, my answer to this question was "because the ICs can't do anything else." Don't get grabbed is a legit game plan as long as your opponent can't really do anything but grab. I'm no longer convinced that the ICs have no other game plan though - I've seen some neat stuff done with desynchs and even Popo alone isn't totally screwed like I at one point thought - he's better than Ganon, that's for sure.

At this point my answer is "because the status quo is to not ban stuff." The last time this debate was taken seriously, ICs were mid tier. They've ... climbed ... the tier list quite a bit since then. At some point we should probably take up the debate seriously again.

 

[Tyr_03]

let's look at some data.

Meep vs. ADHD Viridian City 6
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQ03k1h8DG0

Game 1: ADHD wins BF
Grab attempts: 20
Grab succes: 8 w/ nana 3 without 11/20
55%
Grabs that took stocks: 2

Game 2: Meep Wins BF
Grab attempts: 6
Grab succs: 3 w/ nana 3/6
50%
Grabs that took stocks: 0

Game 3: Meep Wins Smashville
Grab attempts: 10
Grab succes: 4 w/ nana 3 without 7/10
70%
Grabs that took stocks: 0

Yeah, in a perfect world where Ice Climbers players could reliably land grabs and execute chaingrabs perfectly, Ice Climbers would be broken. Any character played perfectly is broken. Out of 8 stocks that Meep took from ADHD, only 2 of them came from grabs. They weren't even zero to deaths. The numbers show that even the best Ice climbers players will mess up. This won't change.

The Ice Climbers chaingrab moves them from low/mid tier to high tier. It doesn't make them broken. Get over it. Move on. Stop johning. There is nothing to discuss here.

 

[Jupz]

People still thinking it should be banned? :|

If IC's ever get top of the tier list, THEN will be the only time this should even be considered.

 

[LanceStern]

I think this was semi productive.

PRO-BAN
----------
- It's broken. We rack up damage, then get grabbed = we die.
- One grab = instant KO no matter the percentage
- Whether people are winning tournies or not, it's an unfair tactic.
- Why ban wobbling / D3's standing infinite if the IC chain grab is legal?


ANTI-BAN
-----------
- If it was broken ICs would be dominating tournies
- Even the strongest ICs mess up on the CG sometime
- ICs have horrible grab range and it's easy to split them up.
- Just space better and you won't get grabbed

I think we've all said what we needed to say.

 

[DMG]

You know what ADHD should have done once he killed Nana and had the lead?

Don't kill Popo and just camp him.

It's really hard for Popo to get kills alone, especially against a strong defensive character like Diddy. If he played to avoid Meep/tack on damage safely without killing him, Meep's only remidy to the situation is to either keep trying and hope he gets the kill or kill himself on purpose to get Nana back. Usually by the time they realize this, you have either wasted a bit of time or the time deficit is too strong for them to overcome.

 

[LanceStern]

let's look at some data.

Meep vs. ADHD Viridian City 6
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQ03k1h8DG0

Out of 8 stocks that Meep took from ADHD, only 2 of them came from grabs. They weren't even zero to deaths. The numbers show that even the best Ice climbers players will mess up. This won't change.

The Ice Climbers chaingrab moves them from low/mid tier to high tier. It doesn't make them broken. Get over it. Move on. Stop johning. There is nothing to discuss here.

That's great, I appreciate this. This is proof for the anti-ban.

But now take the M2k meep match where he was 3 stocked because of the grab. Or you could help me, because I only have dial up and it takes too long to download videos. Look up the M2k/Lain set at Apex and take those numbers... someone please I don't mind who does

 

[C.J.]

One thing to say because it's annoying. In order to determine if something should be banned, you have to take it at the peak of human ability. Has anyone 0-deathed w/ IC CG before? Yes? Ok, so, the argument "because they mess up" isn't valid. In Smash don't we assume that if it's possible that it is considered done?

I'm anti-ban, I just dislike irrelevant arguments.

 

[etecoon]

Out of 8 stocks that Meep took from ADHD, only 2 of them came from grabs. They weren't even zero to deaths. The numbers show that even the best Ice climbers players will mess up. This won't change.

that's because the IC's reduce the goal of the game to "don't get grabbed", THE POWER OF A ZERO TO DEATH GRAB IS GREATER THAN SIMPLY GETTING THE GRAB, it forces your opponent to play a different style which is less efficient than their norm, which opens them up to more non-grab possibilities. you have to be so protective of yourself playing IC's to prevent being grabbed that you get hit by so much other crap that shouldn't work on you normally

I'm not saying that it deserves to be banned, just saying, denying that it's incredibly gay and stupid is asinine

 

[DMG]

The real question to ask isn't "Can you get grabbed", it's "Should you get grabbed?"

I can find videos where a player doesn't get grabbed a single time vs IC's, and I can find videos where a player loses all 3 stocks 0-death and gets 3 stocked. The Question you need to ask is Whether the person SHOULD have gotten grabbed or not.

Getting grabbed by IC's can happen. Humans aren't perfect, we don't always avoid things. However, it's not CAN they grab you, but whether you SHOULD be getting grabbed by them. The better characters SHOULD NOT be getting grabbed by them, but are because people aren't perfect or don't always play as gay as possible or don't understand how to do so in the first place.

Take that match on Battlefield for example. It was entirely possible for ADHD to play the entire match and not get grabbed once. I can say that confidently without a doubt. He would have to work harder than usual, but he certainly could have avoided getting grabbed.


Take M2K's set with Meep. Look at the match where he got destroyed. Compare it to the match where he camps him out and wins. Now, imagine if he played like that for the match he lost. Do you think the result would have been the same, or would M2K have won that game? The way M2K played that last game, IMO, was a clear improvement over his earlier game. If you apply that improvement to EVERY game he plays, then Meep would have lost 2-0 or 3-0.

Now, imagine every player does that to IC's. They all "play gay" like M2K did. What would happen? Assuming the IC player and MK/other character player are about par skillwise, would it be safe to assume that IC's would not do nearly as well as they are now?

That's the way people SHOULD play. That not only demonstrates more accurate matchups across the board, it actually "tests" whether a character is broken or not. If you aren't using every tool available to play as "gay" as possible, then your matchups and views of a character are already flawed/skewed. Once you apply those gay things can you truly see where a character stands. Once those things are applied, I honestly don't think IC's are anywhere near broken.

 

[LanceStern]

Why do I want to play cheap just to beat them?

The remedy in Melee was to run away but attack them to split them up. I mained Falco and just ran around platforms in BF to wait for an error. I guess I'll just keep doing that in Brawl but with Samus... and Peach. Because playing cheap (stalling the timer, planking) isn't me.

 

[DMG]

1. Calling something cheap is an opinion. Some people think $1 for a Bottle of Coca Cola is cheap, others might think that is an outrageous price. Calling a playstyle "cheap" is an opinion.

2. If you aren't playing "cheap" to beat them, then you cannot complain about them. If you already admit that you won't/don't use every tool available to try and solve the problem, then you have no right to whine and moan about it.

 

[Steeler]

it's brawl. gay wins matches. and ic's get ***** by gay. that's why it isn't banned. if all matches were on a very small stage with no platforms, no grabbable edges, and even no way to pass underneath the main platform (like yoshi's) then the cg's would probably be banned. but this is not the case.

if you don't want to play gay then you really should play another game, because that's what brawl is coming down to.

 

[Apollo$]

Ice climbers chain-grab is cheap, it's like they wanna win against me or sumthin.
srsly

 

[ShadowLink84]

All games come down to playing as cruelly as possible

 

[Yumewomiteru]

Ice climbers chain-grab is cheap, it's like they wanna win against me or sumthin.
srsly

Deal with it, srsly. People play to win because it's fun to win competitively.

If your mad cuz your char just happen to suck against the IC's, its your fault for not knowing your char's strength and weaknesses when you picked him up. And if you do know that, well then you should just accept the fact that your char has a bad matchup against a certain char and either secondary a good counter or learn the matchup really well.

Oh, and lrn2notgetgrabbed