Who is the Best Marth right now?(Mew2King excluded)

[Beat!]

Well, I've never really been a Ken fanboy, but idk...

 

[leffen]

Im just watching kens vids right now and I'm considering adding the number up to 250...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aM0ur8d10Xo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5r4vCkbBEMQ

Like honestly, can you see ANYTHING even remotely impressive in those videos? Look at the latter vid. Ken did no gimps, no combos, cannot wavedash up from the edge, spams rolls under pressure, literally spams side B in hopes that PC didnt know how to CC.
Honestly, PCs performance was really suprba too(altho his performance is harder to compare since he mainly played based on reads).

I always imagined them being so much better, but honestly by m2ks real prime I think the number was above 50 already.

It has been almost 5 years since ken was active. To think that he was THAT much before his time is SERIOUSLY underrating the smash communitys improvement

 

[Strong Badam]

chillin went to pound 5 after taking a dump & made bracket
i can't say I'd be surprised if Ken did similar after shaking off a bit of rust and watching some M2K vids

 

[Beat!]

All right, I gotta admit it had been a while since I watched a Ken vid.

 

[leffen]

chillin went to pound 5 after taking a dump & made bracket
i can't say I'd be surprised if Ken did similar after shaking off a bit of rust and watching some M2K vids

I dont disagree. People with a good fundamental understanding would do good if they just practice and ****.

I was just talking about how many would beat his "prime" or w/e.

 

[Niko45]

Chillin had already been back playing consistently for 6+ months by P5 I'm pretty sure.

I think PC needed roughly 6 months or so before he beat jman.

They can improve faster than the normal rate once they come back but still they're no doubt way behind when they start off.

 

[leffen]

How active is Jman ;o? (off topic but kinda relevant to pc winning over him)

 

[Beat!]

He went to Sudden death last week

And iirc he played teams at some tourney a few weeks ago

I THINK he was still fairly active when PC beat him (although one of the games looked kinda weird)

 

[Niko45]

How active is Jman ;o? (off topic but kinda relevant to pc winning over him)

He's been at just about every local this year.

 

[Strong Badam]

I dont disagree. People with a good fundamental understanding would do good if they just practice and ****.

I was just talking about how many would beat his "prime" or w/e.

I think it's ******** to try to compare across Eras, because current players have the benefit of a more developed metagame. Ken had to DEVELOP all of the **** he did, a lot of current players are piggy backing off of past greats or current contenders for top 10. Case in point, I'm not more intelligent than Isaac Newton because I understand how gravity works after reading his works.
I think if Ken/Isai had kept up with the metagame and such they'd still be top 10. Easily.

 

[leffen]

@Your isaac newton comparison: Dude, I didnt compare people on who is the most creative/ had the most talented/smartest, I was comparing to who would WIN.

And the whole point from the beginning was that people nowadays are way better in general, and partly of that is due to not having to build everything themselves yeah (although copying stuff is very underrated and MUCH harder than ppl think).

 

[Bing]

Id say 250 people besting Ken is a bit of a stretch, but 100, for sure. When Ken played In his Prime, people still saw Marth as an S-Tier, Top ****. Now people have learned how to abuse him. Based on Character and just a straight up time change and metagame development, Ken would be beat by about 100 people, give him 6 months to a year of practice, I'd say that number drops to 25. Provided that Ken has kept up with gaming at all.

No offense to Ken, he's almost every Marth Idol(M2K for me personally). The Ken Combo, is used by almost every Marth player, and its effective and he was the founder(or the first to accomplish it in tournament).

 

[Archangel]

chillin went to pound 5 after taking a dump & made bracket
i can't say I'd be surprised if Ken did similar after shaking off a bit of rust and watching some M2K vids

The hypotheticals are based on Ken's prime. Meaning 07 at his best. He was not rusty in 07 he just isn't as good comparatively to alot of people. We would say if we saw him today he has potential to be the best someday but we surely wouldn't crown him the king of anything. 07 Ken might have made it to 3rd round Genesis 2 pools.(Might) Based on his intellect alone but being that smart mindgames player only gets you so far with an outdated approach to pretty much everything except Marth dittos.

@Your isaac newton comparison: Dude, I didnt compare people on who is the most creative/ had the most talented/smartest, I was comparing to who would WIN.

And the whole point from the beginning was that people nowadays are way better in general, and partly of that is due to not having to build everything themselves yeah (although copying stuff is very underrated and MUCH harder than ppl think).

Thanks. For a scrubby player you aren't half bad

 

[Roneblaster]

There are a **** ton of ppl would beat 07 ken.

Its not even an insult to ken, its 20 ****ing 12, if u expect 07 to hang in a 2012 metagame you are actually directly insulting the best players playing right now.



That was directed @ everyone who disagreed with spam/leffen.

Big D chile has gone and got u nostalgic my friend. <3

 

[HugS™]

He'd hold up decently well today. I'd say an in-practice Ken, knowing what he knows of the game, would be top 75.

If people were **** back in the day, he'd beat them. If people played better than ****, he'd adapt and beat them.

He's really smart and he's really good, half of that list wouldn't know what to do with him. His ability to be top 75 would be slightly gimmicky though, since his victories would largely be based on people being confused by his style.

 

[Max?]

Jman is very active. He's been to everyone tournament in the Tristate/NY/NYC area so far this year, regularly plays with us at PC's house for practice, and is straight up the most real mother ****er on the planet earth.

Jesus is my ****ing home boy.

 

[Van.]

Did you really think that list was in order? O_o

Anyway, I'm with Mizar on this one. There's definitely more than 20 players who would beat him, but 100 is pushing it. Around 50-ish would probably be accurate.

Well he got the first two right, and the first ten or so were like... kind of accurate, plus he numbered them. I don't think my assumption that he was trying to order them was outlandish at all. I do think you're dumb though.

Leffen if you think 150 people would beat him, who is the WORST player who could consistently beat ken. Whats the Ken threshold?

 

[JPOBS]

I don't think anyone is arguing that if ken had kept playing, or came out of retirement for a few months and caught up, that he would still be really good. I'm pretty sure everyone accepts that. I mean, m2k is a relic of that era too and he is still top 5.

What we are saying is that, hypothetically, if we could send 100 people from this era into a time machine to play ken in 07, I'm pretty sure ken would get his s*** pushed in by pretty much everyone.

 

[OverLord]

This thought experiment about Ken is offensivily stupid.

 

[\±/Gale\±/]

To answer Spam Arrows question on the last page, the last time I saw Ken play was at MLG 2006 in Dallas. I really haven't kept up with smash in a while after that, (I was watching some "vintage" Ken videos recently, though) so I don't know many new players, hence why I came to this thread. So any suggestions on any good recent marth videos to check out?

 

[the_CAM_factor]

taj and ice are both very good current marths

 

[MasterShake]

Tai, Dart, AustinRC, Niko for decent level solid marths.

 

[Cherished Doll]

I like ken as much as the next guy but I'm not going to be unrealistic. I said World Wide at least 100 people would probably beat him. Think about that and don't take it as an insult just break it down slowly...then start filling in blanks. Not difficult considering what has been seen since his retirement but I'll help you out.

1.Mango
2.Armada
M2K
16.Dr.PP



That's just off the top people from around the world that I can think of who could probably best 07 Ken. Some are questionable for sure but at least 60% of them are not questionable unless you just don't follow smash worldwide(I do). Again it isn't an insult to ken if anything it is a compliment to Melee and the players who've advanced from 07-012.

Those four are for sure from ur list IMO

Maybe Hbox, PC Chris, Axe, Zhu, Lovage, Shiz, HugS, SilentWolf,SS, Chu, Chillin, Dajuan, S2J

He'd hold up decently well today.
He's really smart and he's really good, half of that list wouldn't know what to do with him. His ability to be top 75 would be slightly gimmicky though, since his victories would largely be based on people being confused by his style.

I agree with this except for 75. I def feel that Ken would make it top 17 at the least.
Maybe Lose to those internation players listed (ice) but since i have never seen them play vs usa top players i wont just jump into anything.

Ken will adapt to any player and quick. His spacing and amazing combos will defeat MANY spacies.

IMO

 

[the_CAM_factor]

honestly dont think could beat any of the top level falcos

 

[Metal Reeper]

Didn't know AustinRC was that good hah.

 

[Archangel]

honestly dont think could beat any of the top level falcos

I am not sure any top Falco/Fox/Falcon/Puff/Sheiks. The things is everybody and their brother knows how to fight against the average Marth. Ken's Evo 07 Marth is now the standard where you must be at least that good. All bias aside if you were to Watch Bombsoldier vs Ken and you didn't know it was Bombsoldier and Ken......you would say it is ok...they both have alot to learn/correct.

 

[Armada]

Ken was a awesome player and invented a lot of things.

The problem is that players back then was way worse and Ken in his prime would not have a chance today. I don´t know how many players that would have beat him but I would not be surprised with at least 150.

The important things to remember is

1: Experience:
Ken had over severall years of the smash community a lot of experience in high level matches and had a great mentaly to deal with everything you need to handle on top level of playing

2: He was a really smart player and the main problem 07 Ken would have is the fact that he don´t know about all the new stuff people have come up with during this years. Even if you are really smart it is way to much to keep up with.

The second argument is leading to my real point and that is it wouldn´t take long time for Ken to be back on a really high level again I think.

I have seen a lot of players improve from the begining really fast.
Leffen is a great example and he has been playing in 2 years now and is ranked 2nd in Sweden
Placed 4th at Beast
17th at Genesis 2

Ken would not have the biggest problem new players have beacuase he would have tons of experience before hand.

5 maybe 6 months and I think Ken would be really good again to be honest (top 30 maybe)

 

[\±/Gale\±/]

K thanks I'll check some of those out.

 

[Shadow Huan]

To answer Spam Arrows question on the last page, the last time I saw Ken play was at MLG 2006 in Dallas. I really haven't kept up with smash in a while after that, (I was watching some "vintage" Ken videos recently, though) so I don't know many new players, hence why I came to this thread. So any suggestions on any good recent marth videos to check out?

www.youtube.com/watch?gl=US&hl=en&client=mv-google&v=LFYWuV1A8SY

mew2king is REALLY good @ marth dittoes

beware the commentary is... Unique lol

 

[Archangel]

Ken was a awesome player and invented a lot of things.

The problem is that players back then was way worse and Ken in his prime would not have a chance today. I don´t know how many players that would have beat him but I would not be surprised with at least 150.

The important things to remember is

1: Experience:
Ken had over severall years of the smash community a lot of experience in high level matches and had a great mentaly to deal with everything you need to handle on top level of playing

2: He was a really smart player and the main problem 07 Ken would have is the fact that he don´t know about all the new stuff people have come up with during this years. Even if you are really smart it is way to much to keep up with.

The second argument is leading to my real point and that is it wouldn´t take long time for Ken to be back on a really high level again I think.

I have seen a lot of players improve from the begining really fast.
Leffen is a great example and he has been playing in 2 years now and is ranked 2nd in Sweden
Placed 4th at Beast
17th at Genesis 2

Ken would not have the biggest problem new players have beacuase he would have tons of experience before hand.

5 maybe 6 months and I think Ken would be really good again to be honest (top 30 maybe)

*hugs* I love you so much right now.(No homo)

 

[AXE 09]

My goodness... I personally feel that Ken would do a lot better than that lol. I personally feel that there's probably around 20 or 25 people that he would lose to, maybe 30. Idk, I just feel that although Ken's techskill wasn't as crazy as everyone's now a days, he would still best a lot of people, and I feel like he could make top 17 at a big tourney assuming he's playing as good as he was in his prime.

 

[Archangel]

My goodness... I personally feel that Ken would do a lot better than that lol. I personally feel that there's probably around 20 or 25 people that he would lose to, maybe 30. Idk, I just feel that although Ken's techskill wasn't as crazy as everyone's now a days, he would still best a lot of people, and I feel like he could make top 17 at a big tourney assuming he's playing as good as he was in his prime.

Ken's prime wouldn't have made it out of pools at Genesis 2. Probably not out of pools at Apex1.

 

[the_CAM_factor]

how many people can lick ken in todays metagame? the world will never know.

 

[pewpewyou]

I like ken as much as the next guy but I'm not going to be unrealistic. I said World Wide at least 100 people would probably beat him. Think about that and don't take it as an insult just break it down slowly...then start filling in blanks. Not difficult considering what has been seen since his retirement but I'll help you out.

1.Mango
2.Armada
3.M2K
4.Ice
5.Amsah
6.Hbox
7.Axe
8.Dark
9.S2J
10.Hax
11.Unknown522
12.Kage
13.kirbykaze
14.I.B.
15.raynex
16.Dr.PP
17.Jman
18.Silentspectre
19.Lovage
20.Bam
21.Sfat
22.PewPewU
23.Dart
24.Stric9
25.Niko
26.PC Chris(09-010 version)
27.Shroomed
28.MacD
29.BluntedObject10
30.Colbol
31.Dashizwiz
32.Lambchops
33.Eggm
34.Salepate
35.Hack
36.IVP
37.Leffen
38.Zgetto
39.Aldwyn
40.Vwins
41.CalleW
42.Ghost
43.DarkRain
44.Vanz
45.Duck
46.Tai
47.Javi
48.Fly_Amanita
49.Kels
50.Zhu
51.RockCrock
52.Linguini
53.Diakanos
54.Baxon
55.Darko
56.Taj
57.Lucien
58.SilentWolf
59.Lucky
60.Plup
61.Fuzzyness
62.Zant
63.Star
64.Zhuv
65.Atma
66.Remen
67.Scar
68.Tink
69.JesiahTEG
70.G$
71.Faab
72.Strawhat Dehean
73.Hyprid
74.Xif
75.Laj
76.Teczero
77.Trinity
78.Mahie
79.Lawrencelot
80.Cactaur
81.Wobbles(with Unbanned wobbling)
82.Cyrain
83.Tope
84.Chillin(present version)
85.Roche
86.G$
87.HBK
88.DarkSonic
89..jpg
90.Zeck
91.SillyKyle
92.Doraki
93.Nando
94.Blea Gelo
95.Eggz
96.Hugs
97.Swift
98.Okami
99.Chu dat
100.Redd, HMW, Westballz, Slox, JPEG, Adam, jeapie, Moon, Knight, Eddie, Eddy, Vist, DJN, D'oh, Mafia, Thorn, Moose, Superboom, Conner, L, Shady, Baka, Meta, Dieslow, Spam_arrows(on 5 hour energy), & Big D.(pretty much any spacies player that can apply shield pressure because...well that didn't exist lol).

That's just off the top people from around the world that I can think of who could probably best 07 Ken. Some are questionable for sure but at least 60% of them are not questionable unless you just don't follow smash worldwide(I do). Again it isn't an insult to ken if anything it is a compliment to Melee and the players who've advanced from 07-012.

WHAT THE HELL LOL. And so I'm ranked higher than Zhu too? Dear god lol

 

[Archangel]

WHAT THE HELL LOL. And so I'm ranked higher than Zhu too? Dear god lol

What got into you and made you look at this as a ranking? It is in the order at which I thought of people.

 

[Metal Reeper]

He would **** Nando and Strict lol.

 

[Bing]

Why is Darkrain on the list... he's retired...

 

[Archangel]

He would **** Nando and Strict lol.

Nando is better than Isai was. Strict is Better than PC was. Strict would be the best falco in the world if he went to 07 right now.

Why is Darkrain on the list... he's retired...

he was better before he retired. Same with strawhat.

 

[Niko45]

He would **** Nando and Strict lol.

idk why you would single them out those are good players

 

[Archangel]

idk why you would single them out those are good players

^ Nando is especially by 07 standards an amazing Falcon. Same goes with Strict and his Falco.