Who is the Best Marth right now?(Mew2King excluded)

[pewpewyou]

Ice Ice baby

 

[L__]

you're an embarrassment to our region

 

[pewpewyou]

you're an embarrassment to our region

I only came back on to this site because you linked me bro. This black background crap burns my eyes

 

[Pi]

hah, pretty much what hugs said
hell, there are tons of ways to be inspired
some samus players probably looked at hugs and said 'man he's playing all wrong, i can do better than that' and got inspired that way

personally, i had my doubts about samus, but as long as there were other samus out there who placed higher than me i could never doubt the character, i would always revert back to the fact that someone else was doing what i could not w/ the character
so maybe i'm wrong.
and that has been my source of inspiration for a while

and lol @ all these marth players sleeping on samus, claiming all SHE is, is gimmicks
okay marth.
i have never, as samus, felt 'shut down' by a marth
and if any of you want to try and do so and are going to apex feel free to MM me
as for her other matchups
the only ones i can potentially see her being shut down in, is jiggs and sheik
but i have very little experience in those matchups so i'm sure there's a lot more i can discover about thhem

i think people are completely neglecting a huge aspect of samus, as a character
and that's her ability to live longer than her opponent, i think that factors into the outcome of a match in a lot more ways than credit is being given to it

 

[Archangel]

Lol this is probably the least emotional "anti-HugS" post I've ever read. Usually people get enraged when they're trying to rip on me, or they make ridiculous conclusions about me. Your only real offense was comparing me to Amsah vs Jman. I play safe, but I'm always fighting, I never run away from people. Other than that, you were mature about what you said lol.

LOL it's not emotional because...well it's not personal. I don't even know you really. Comparing to Amsah vs Jman was simply the Match that came to mind when I was trying to think of an example but it isn't quite right now that I think about it.

A long long time ago, I accepted the fact that my style was going to be polarizing. That polarizing aspect might give some credence to your statement about the lack of Samus inspiration. But in reality, I guarantee you there are plenty of Samus players who have stuck to the character based on my work. I'm not everyone's cup-of-tea, but I am to many.

Fair enough. There were a few who came and went between 04-08 who had a bit more of a hugs-ish approach to Samus.

I do think the character has places left to go. For one, my execution blows. Like, if I could consistently do what goes on in my head, things would be different. But that has to do with my lack of practice, something I used to do a LOT more of.

What I find interesting about this post Is I use to say the same thing to some in my smash circle a few years back. Sadly non of us can play the game with are minds....yet. Just as you say not practicing has alot to do with it. I didn't practice technical or even basic things in those days so I was the worst among my peers for awhile.

But to say I killed the Samus metagame for the past 4-5 years, that's ridiculous. You don't kill a metagame by hanging with great players and great characters for that long. I'll tell you one thing, I was super inspired by Wes back in the days because he was a Samus player who was hanging with the best. He's the SOLE reason why I didn't become a Sheik main back in 2004. Did I choose to play like him? Absolutely not, but he inspired me by winning. You can't say I demotivated the entire Samus scene by winning.

I'm not sure I am saying you killed Samus's metagame. You weren't even the only samus during that time but the others were doing their best Wes impression and failing at it. I said you became the focal point. You much like Ka-Master gained alot of positive attention(at some point you played in finals somewhere if I'm not mistaken). You did well to stay with the best I'll give you that but I think it's possible you could have been one of the very best during the 04-07 era.

I was never flashy, and that may have turned some people off. But what I have been is smart. There are players who get inspired by that, and there are players who decide to write it off as "boring". It's not my fault that there are people who choose the latter. Yet it's weird, cuz I don't run away and I don't camp. I always fight, I just fight smart. You'll never see me involved in a match that plays out like a certain Jiggs vs Ylink match we all saw at Genesis. But people like to think that I could have been riskier

Something we have in abundance on smashboards seems to be a great since of duality. Flashy(technical skill) vs Smart(basic reads & reactions and safe decisions) Much like the approach vs don't approach & defensive vs offensive gameplay argument too many people decide to take one stance over another. The historically better players are always somewhere in the middle. I agree that Y.link vs Puff match at Genesis 2 was a ghastly and unsightly set. However if Juan didn't play like an absolute homo(see apex1 Hbox vs Armada) That would never have happened. You fight smart, you fight safe. I guess what's missing is the lack of passion. If you have any passion it doesn't translate into your playstyle which is why it comes off as boring despite your efforts to engage in a fight. It always seems like one person is fighting against you and you are fending them off. Makes me wonder.....Do you study Tai Chi?

I never just sat there and chose to not explore my character though. I know the b**** better than anyone out there. It's just that my focus has always been to explore my own intelligence within the game. Some people's thrill comes from death combos, from crowd jubilation. That's fine, I love it too, but my real pleasure comes from other things, and I focused on those other things. I chose to explore my ability to play smarter than the next guy, that's always been my edge. Many people relate to that.

Again fair enough. You can play the game however you want too. Players like Dashizwiz and SilentSpectre being your polar opposites have the right to play the game however they want as well(mindless fun and flash). If your goal is to explore your own intelligence then my question to you is how smart are you? In the end players that smoke pot and drink daily can best those who's intelligence quotient is between 130-170. Rather than being self-righteous and sticking to one aspect why not attempt to cover all aspects of the game? I believe being smarter than the next guy only gives you an edge if you are at least equal to them in every other aspect of the game.

I understand there's a lot of excitement now about new Samus players exploring different aspects of her game. Let's just hope that these Samuses explore their own smash intelligence too so that people like s2j and Lovage actually feel afraid of losing to them, instead of just feeling impressed by their abilities.

I believe they play relatively smart. I just think the pressure to be impressive prevents some players from making the wiser decisions at times.

To be completely fair to you none of this is your fault or responsibility. Being "the best samus" was not something you really asked for(I don't think). You were the only one left so the crown kind of fell in your lap. You are a surviving dinosaur(not an insult) Most others from your time have successors now some have had multiple successors. To say samus could be played better....well. Nobody told Bombsoldier his Falco could be played better, Nobody told Ken his Marth could be played better. Neither did anyone tell this to Zelgadis, 06M2K, Wife, Manacloud, King, Chu dat, Ka-Master, Isai, Bob$, Tipman/chad/magnus/w.e, gimpyfish, neo....etc about there respective characters. They all did what they wanted and could do for the time being. They were the best until proven otherwise and nobody gave them any crap.

I think because you stayed as the representative and ambassadorial Samus player to the world for so long is what draws in the negative outlook. Bombsoldier for example, His style of gameplay with falco has been so evolved and changed over the years by various players around the world to the point where falco's game is almost unrecognizable in comparison.

Meanwhile, Samus's game(mainly yours since...well nobody else played her) stayed the same and looks the same overall. WD tilt. UpB OOS...etc. All good things but nothing new showed up until recent years. IHSB for example was the first other samus to really gain some recognition and he's not exactly great just so flashy and different people jumped all on him and the hype train despite him....not being THAT good imo YEA I SAID IT!

People who want a Dr.PP of Samus players who is both flashy and smart(technically sound/aggressive & defensively aware and make smart decisions). Those players will have to wait and see if some of the new blood will develop into.


*on a side note. I have been on this site too long. I am starting to make posts with a point instead of just stupid stuff ...


*back on topic. It is clear that I am the best Marth at this point everyone else sucks and I hate you all!

 

[Bing]

oh my... that was a lot of reading...

You were talking about players who Inspired you to play said character so I think ill go towards that.

M2K was of course the character who inspired me to play. I saw his set vs. PC Chris at Evo 2K7 and that was amazing.

My Style on the other hand, has been constantly changing, I would like to say I followed in the steps of sir Zimmerman. But I didnt, Infact recently when I became 100% sure that my main with Marth, I noticed my style actually resembled PewPewU quite a bit. Love 'dem U-Airs XD

 

[Beat!]

Wtf

Shiz and silentspectre didn't play "mindless flash"

Like really wtf

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Lol this is probably the least emotional "anti-HugS" post I've ever read. Usually people get enraged when they're trying to rip on me, or they make ridiculous conclusions about me. Your only real offense was comparing me to Amsah vs Jman. I play safe, but I'm always fighting, I never run away from people. Other than that, you were mature about what you said lol.

A long long time ago, I accepted the fact that my style was going to be polarizing. That polarizing aspect might give some credence to your statement about the lack of Samus inspiration. But in reality, I guarantee you there are plenty of Samus players who have stuck to the character based on my work. I'm not everyone's cup-of-tea, but I am to many.

I do think the character has places left to go. For one, my execution blows. Like, if I could consistently do what goes on in my head, things would be different. But that has to do with my lack of practice, something I used to do a LOT more of.

But to say I killed the Samus metagame for the past 4-5 years, that's ridiculous. You don't kill a metagame by hanging with great players and great characters for that long. I'll tell you one thing, I was super inspired by Wes back in the days because he was a Samus player who was hanging with the best. He's the SOLE reason why I didn't become a Sheik main back in 2004. Did I choose to play like him? Absolutely not, but he inspired me by winning. You can't say I demotivated the entire Samus scene by winning.

I was never flashy, and that may have turned some people off. But what I have been is smart. There are players who get inspired by that, and there are players who decide to write it off as "boring". It's not my fault that there are people who choose the latter. Yet it's weird, cuz I don't run away and I don't camp. I always fight, I just fight smart. You'll never see me involved in a match that plays out like a certain Jiggs vs Ylink match we all saw at Genesis. But people like to think that I could have been riskier.


I never just sat there and chose to not explore my character though. I know the b**** better than anyone out there. It's just that my focus has always been to explore my own intelligence within the game. Some people's thrill comes from death combos, from crowd jubilation. That's fine, I love it too, but my real pleasure comes from other things, and I focused on those other things. I chose to explore my ability to play smarter than the next guy, that's always been my edge. Many people relate to that.

I understand there's a lot of excitement now about new Samus players exploring different aspects of her game. Let's just hope that these Samuses explore their own smash intelligence too so that people like s2j and Lovage actually feel afraid of losing to them, instead of just feeling impressed by their abilities.

Oh god Hugo I really want to play you...why'd you have to go inactive now that I'm in Socal

I can say this in HugS' defense though: I've played a lot of players people would call "campy" or "defensive" and against most of them, even if I'm winning, I just get frustrated or bored with their playstyle. But I think, even though I only played one set with him, Hugo is different. Playing him is soooo fun, and very constructive. He breaks you down psychologically, and punishes you for doing anything repeatedly. Its a lot of fun playing against someone who exposes your habits clear as day, in contrast to other top players who just mash tech skill in your face and you don't really end up learning much.

 

[KirbyKaze]

i think people are completely neglecting a huge aspect of samus, as a character
and that's her ability to live longer than her opponent, i think that factors into the outcome of a match in a lot more ways than credit is being given to it

It's because of her ability to live forever that I view her as superior to Ganon now, actually. I feel Samus gives her handler more time to outplay the opponent because she reduces the game to low damage and positional play. A lot of aspects of the game get watered down because of her unique design.

While I'm unconvinced that "learn to outplay your opponent" is a legitimately good strategy, I feel Ganon and several other characters are too easily shut down by OHKOs and other nonsense.

Spam, I'm not sure why you think I'm backing you up. I disagreed with you on just about everything. Unless I've wildly mistaken your posts for something they're not. On a related note, SS and Shiz were far from mindless flash. SS is only mindless flash against people he's much better than. He's a very, very smart player.

 

[Pi]

so apart from that you think she's on the same level as ganon?
in the same way? or does she have different drawbacks than him

 

[Niko45]

I don't see Samus' punish game as a serious problem since she makes up for it by surviving and also edgeguarding pretty damn well in general.

Her severe flaw is really that she can't really...punish shielding. I guess there's some jab pressure that's hard to deal with or something? But I've never had a major problem with it even against great samus players and her grab is so slow and situational you really need brilliant shield anticipation and sick grabs to play Samus well but I still feel like even on reaction you can sidestep her grab and then punish it as hard as you can. No shield pressure and a really slow grab is her most major setback imo.

She's better than Ganon (imo) because she does way WAY better against the most important characters to be good against: spacies.

 

[Legend4ryFlower]

"tons of marth players sleeping on samus" = the marth boards being characteristically mediocre

also spam arrows you are trying to simplify a very complicated topic. a lot of people are influenced by other players, and a lot are not. drives are unique to everyone.

some people will play a character differently just for the sake of being unique. Some people will play a character in a certain way solely because of the people they play against in their region.

Its not a simple thing, and the wall of text generalizing about hundreds of people is a bit much.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think they're similar power level, but I think Samus is better overall. She seems like a more versatile character.

This is a post I made a little while ago but it's still true in terms of how I view Samus and Ganon in relation to one another (strengths, weaknesses, etc).

The gist of it is that Samus has a lot of weaknesses against spacing strategies (Marth sword patterns, Sheik aerials, Puff bair, etc) but none of those things kill her in one hit (or even ten hit). Because of this, you have time to learn the opponent's patterns, adjust to them, revise your spacing & timings, and outplay the opponent (you have to work way harder, but it's doable). The low punishment makes most MUs based around positional advantage and acquiring first hits, which means you can always be the better player.

Ganon's weaknesses are mostly that he's slow on the ground, his moves generally take a while to come out, and he can die at just about any time for no reason whatsoever against just about any character because of being fat, having poor combo-breaking potential, and a terrible recovery. In exchange, he feeds off momentum incredibly well and can kill the opponent at just about any time for seemingly no reason whatsoever because of his punishment potential.



edit:

Niko, I agree on shielding. Although I think you're exaggerating how bad her grab is. I don't think you can sidestep it on reaction. But I agree with everything else about needing good anticipation skills.

I disagree on the punishment thing, though. Her lack of a solid punishment against characters like Sheik lets some of them outpace her really hard. She's one of the characters that actually sucks at edgeguarding the poof, which is a major setback. I also think it's a big problem of her's against Puff, too. A reliable or semi-reliable 2-step KO (doesn't even have to be grab-based, could just be like jab > up smash with Fox or something) would be very useful in preventing many characters from living way beyond their average life expectancy, but she just doesn't have one.

 

[Deleted member]

I think ganon is slightly better than samus. while those things are true, ganon can ban FD and use platforms to help his mobility, and his grab game is way underrated. samus can't ban being in the air.

 

[Archangel]

oh my... that was a lot of reading...

You were talking about players who Inspired you to play said character so I think ill go towards that.

M2K was of course the character who inspired me to play. I saw his set vs. PC Chris at Evo 2K7 and that was amazing.

My Style on the other hand, has been constantly changing, I would like to say I followed in the steps of sir Zimmerman. But I didnt, Infact recently when I became 100% sure that my main with Marth, I noticed my style actually resembled PewPewU quite a bit. Love 'dem U-Airs XD

I must always liked Marth but I never thought I would be a Marth Main. I started playing as Doc/Mario in like 04 because they weren't that technical and I basically Hugs'd it. I actually played the same as Hug's Samus with my Doc especially. I beat people who seemed overall better than me just by tossing pills at them and Exploiting their annoyance with me. :D (good times). I always admired the seemingly pure aura a Marth has when he's playing on point. I thought about swapping for a different character but I was rage-rebel in those days. When I found out about the tier list I decided I wasn't gonna play any top tier(Marth tied for 1st then). I thought I would be selling out if I did so and once brawl was announced I quit playing.

As we all know brawl was terrible. I gave it a shot but it was so ****ty i could only stand playing a few months. I came to smashboards because I heard a rumor that they found a way to hack brawl to play like melee(I envisioned Project M but it was brawl+ in it's first stages ). I followed the project but once it was decided they didn't want to make it like melee I left.

on the verge of quitting I decided to peak in on melee section...now here I am

Wtf

Shiz and silentspectre didn't play "mindless flash"

Like really wtf

Rather they are or aren't is open to debate but this is a the label they are given by more defensive players. Much like offensive players give the boring label to Hugs or Shroomed.


@ Everyone else who's posted in the mean time. Most of you are misinterpreting my posts in every way possible. Simply put Samus has potential to make it right under high tier at most. If someone could(can't) but if they could play humanly perfect with Samus's more technical aspects I feel they would settle in B tier with ICs. That is what I originally meant. Ganon has already showed what he can't do. Doc if played extremely well....is about on par with Samus lacking in some area's but very far ahead in others.

 

[Violence]

Thanks for the back up on the David.


I may come off as a Hugs hater but I am not. I like hugs as a person but his style reminds me of how Amsah played Jman game 3 of Pound 4. Except he ALWAYS plays gay(over defensive). According to hax this is how you are suppose to play the game but I don't agree. It's like saying in Boxing the best way to fight is landing a hit and then staying away until you run out of round. Granted it is a way to win that doesn't mean it is the only true option.

In the absence of Wes(the legendary samus) Hugs became the focal point for Samus. Truth be told most who play the game find a player who inspires them to play the characters. Hug's style doesn't really inspire anybody(hence Samus staying dead for years). He is a good player and his way of playing some match-ups may really be the best. For example I like his vs Falcon game over IHSBs. However you do not have to be 100% defensive vs the characters above her in order to barely lose against the good players. Trying to find ways to use Samus's tricks in succession can potentially give you somewhat of an edge. Mastering of the Super WD glitch and it's applications off platforms and such give samus many options that have yet to be explored or even master to the degree spacies technical shenanigans have. Fancy isn't always better but Wave shines, jump cancels, and Moonwalks are all tricks that have found consistent & useful applications in today's game. Samus is an odd character out. With the Ruleset being change I think we'll soon witness the Rise of the Mediocre characters. Meaning anyone between from C-E tier. With players like Plus and Duck around I think Samus could be showing up in top 5 of a tournament like Apex or Genesis soon.

Hugo is defensive, he is not overly defensive. Show me one match where Hugo tries to actively camp or time the other player out.

It's just that Hugo's defensive game is the best out of any Samus player, and his strongest suit. His style reflects this, he puts pressure on without approaching and lets the opponent make a bad attack, and then capitalizes. How is this gay? You're comparing it to Amsah shino stalling Jman out?

Super WD is a gimmick(except in doubles, where it's pretty awesome). It's telegraphed across large platforms, doesn't go into valuable mixups, and on small platforms, slower than just wavedashing off. Untill we are able to SWD off the very edge of platforms like in Perfect Control 2, something which I doubt will happen for quite a while, SWD is just a pipe dream.

I don't know why you made this post about Hugo. Just because someone has a certain style doesn't mean they're responsible for the entire character metagame.

 

[Archangel]

Hugo is defensive, he is not overly defensive. Show me one match where Hugo tries to actively camp or time the other player out.

It's just that Hugo's defensive game is the best out of any Samus player, and his strongest suit. His style reflects this, he puts pressure on without approaching and lets the opponent make a bad attack, and then capitalizes. How is this gay? You're comparing it to Amsah shino stalling Jman out?

Super WD is a gimmick(except in doubles, where it's pretty awesome). It's telegraphed across large platforms, doesn't go into valuable mixups, and on small platforms, slower than just wavedashing off. Untill we are able to SWD off the very edge of platforms like in Perfect Control 2, something which I doubt will happen for quite a while, SWD is just a pipe dream.

I don't know why you made this post about Hugo. Just because someone has a certain style doesn't mean they're responsible for the entire character metagame.

your too late and I am too tired. Just read everything that followed this. If you still aren't happy inbox me.

 

[Bing]

Holy Samus Conversation, I think ya'll should move to the Samus Boards :S

 

[Archangel]

Holy Samus Conversation, I think ya'll should move to the Samus Boards :S

Perhaps so. Samus Boards could use some life for sure. The boards there look like the Marth boards during the Pre-Legacy era

 

[Shroomed]

Rather they are or aren't is open to debate but this is a the label they are given by more defensive players. Much like offensive players give the boring label to Hugs or Shroomed.

Since when is my play style called boring???

 

[KirbyKaze]

Shroomed's playstyle is hilarious.

 

[Bing]

Shroomed plays Doc, it cant be boring. Unless he's playing HBox.



Mind you thats not his fault....

 

[Archangel]

Since when is my play style called boring???

ok how many others search their names on here?

In anycase listen to commentary on your matches the past year. You'll either hear lame or gay but sometimes you'll hear hella good.


I personally like your doc. Amazing Follow ups.

 

[JPOBS]

My favorite thing about Hugs is that no matter the thread, topic of discussion, or relevance, he will always find you, hunt you down, and respond to you. What a class act.

 

[Aussierob123]

shroomed's matches are way different to the likes of hungrybox, shroomed is hella entertaining to watch. I've never seen or heard anyone say shroomed is boring wtf? lol.

And hugs isn't a camper, I think you are mistaking long matches for campy matches, because matches with hugs are long but they certainly aren't campy. It's just inevitable when playing against samus, matches are always like 5+ mins long.

 

[Metal Reeper]

I love the one match of shroomed. Him vs a fox, both super high % on FoD. Then shroomed DD's into a full hop fair and catches the fox somehow and wins. And then the commentator (I think JB) goes "WHO DOES THAT!?"

Im afraid of Samus.

 

[L__]

I'm betting that was against SFAT

 

[MasterShake]

Shroomed is just mad dumb when he capes. Seriously, that's such a ***** move lol.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Spam, when you live in NorCal, and you're playing SS, it doesn't matter if you're entertaining or really good or doing really sick stuff. The crowd will be against you. Why? Because you're fighting SS. That's all there is to it.

 

[huMps]

NIKOOOOOOOO!

And doc is not a good enough charecter to ***** about his one gimme move lol.

 

[Roneblaster]

**** doc. **** samus.

Marth has a big *** sword that is lame, but looks flashy as ****.

 

[Archangel]

Spam, when you live in NorCal, and you're playing SS, it doesn't matter if you're entertaining or really good or doing really sick stuff. The crowd will be against you. Why? Because you're fighting SS. That's all there is to it.

LOOOOOOOOOOL To be fair SS is very difficult to cheer against. I know what it's like to be cheer'd and honestly I don't mind. The pressure to preform is on the other guy not me.

**** doc. **** samus.

Marth has a big *** sword that is lame, but looks flashy as ****.

**** falcon he's wearing tights!!! His Knee is too good!!! Everything he has sets it up!!!! gay!

 

[Roneblaster]

Thank the heavenly car battery Knee is too good otherwise thered be 0 point in playing him

 

[Tommy Pickles]

So did anybody happen to catch the fact that Niko got 3rd at a NY tourney yesterday, beating everyone there, out placing Jman/hax and only placing behind Mango/m2k (and having close sets with mango).

Idk, I'm sure you guys will just ignore it and keep thinking your good when you most likely suck and your region does too.

 

[Roneblaster]

Very nice niko. Keep that **** up. Thats one of the most impressive marth feats achieved in a while.

Im guessing Mango won the whole thing?

 

[Tommy Pickles]

Nah m2k did

 

[Roneblaster]

....was mango playing mario?

 

[Tommy Pickles]

Nah, Marth/Falcon/Spacies

 

[Teczer0]

I only heard he beat cactus.

Good **** to Niko though.

 

[Tommy Pickles]

He beat Cactus, Eggm, Stric9, and Velocity.
And he was 1 hit away from beating Mango's falcon