Who is the Best Marth right now?(Mew2King excluded)

[Archangel]

duck's biggest strength is probably his clutchness

I agree.

As for you...well...you lost to Tink but you have come a long way. You just have to learn to hold momentum I think that is the last thing you are missing.

Game 1 vs Tink..WHOA!!! You caught one hell of a smash vibe then bro. I was impressed.

 

[KirbyKaze]

duck's biggest strength is probably his clutchness

I think it's his combos. Nair > nair > f-smash with Samus?! Who does that!?

Ducktilt is also way too good.

 

[Archangel]

I think it's his combos. Nair > nair > f-smash with Samus?! Who does that!?

Ducktilt is also way too good.

Samus that is good with tilts can beat anyone. Samus's tilts are super underrated.

 

[Bing]

Samus that is good with tilts can beat anyone. Samus's tilts are super underrated.

Heyy! your supposed to be blowing up Marth not Samus! :@

 

[Battlecow]

Duck could've used a bit more clutchness against s2j/lovage

He had that ****tt

 

[Archangel]

Heyy! your supposed to be blowing up Marth not Samus! :@

I'm just saying Samus is underrated not saying he's better than Marth.

 

[Cherished Doll]

Taj>

 

[Bing]

Samus is underrated, I think Samus is just like the IC's. Difficult to become good with, but once you've gotten over that hurdle, whole different ballgame.

Anywho, yes Taj is defs #2 Marth, maybe #1, that all rides on M2K.

 

[Archangel]

I personally feel the same Samus has alot more to offer. Tied with IC's imo.

 

[Bing]

Yeah, Plup(I think thats his name, Florida Samus) has a lot of great combos,

 

[the_CAM_factor]

i think taj has to place well again to be considered in the top place. he played well at genesis2 but i think he has to place high at apex to prove himself

 

[t-iceman]

I personally feel the same Samus has alot more to offer. Tied with IC's imo.

Nah samus is bad. Ic's can zero to death any character, samus has up b out of sheild and tilts that are ok. If you space marths tilts and aerials correctly samus can't do ****.

 

[OverLord]

Samus is a really limited character.
She relies mostly on gimmicks and tricks, once you know how to fall not for them, she can't do much.

IC's are way better than her.

 

[Dart!]

IC's are fun to play against. not enough people are good with them.

 

[Wake]

That's because Nana is an idiot.

 

[Apasher]

Shady is the best marth

 

[Archangel]

Nah samus is bad. Ic's can zero to death any character, samus has up b out of sheild and tilts that are ok. If you space marths tilts and aerials correctly samus can't do ****.

Samus is a really limited character.
She relies mostly on gimmicks and tricks, once you know how to fall not for them, she can't do much.

IC's are way better than her.

What character doesn't rely on tricks or gimmicks? In anycase I never suggested you should be losing to a Samus or IC's.

Samus is largely undeveloped. In terms of what Samus can do vs what is done with Samus.

 

[OverLord]

What character doesn't rely on tricks or gimmicks? In anycase I never suggested you should be losing to a Samus or IC's.

Samus is largely undeveloped. In terms of what Samus can do vs what is done with Samus.

That's not a fact, just your opinion.

I could say Marth is undeveloped, but that's not true.
Samus just ain't got answers to a lot of stuff that keeps her from being a "good" character.

I agree on the fact that Samus could be more played to maybe find some sort of evolution in her metagame, but after eleven years of Melee it would be unreasonable to say she got potential, 'cause she got not.



Also, if you really think that Top and High tiers rely on tricks, you're either crazy or maybe you do not get what a trick is.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Samus is underrated, I think Samus is just like the IC's. Difficult to become good with, but once you've gotten over that hurdle, whole different ballgame.

Samus is absolutely horrible at winning for no reason, though, which is an extremely crippling drawback.

 

[the_CAM_factor]

i honestly dont see as much potential with samus as i do with half the cast.
i think ics and doc have alot more unlocked depth than she does.

 

[Archangel]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9sa8133NBI

this shows what is technically possible although alot of it is just....O__O. When things like this first hit melee community shrugged at it. However people like M2K Silentwolf now players like Lovage and Dark(chilie) are still pushing fox closer and closer to this level. Samus died for about 4 years. Wes left Hugs played like a boring *** for a few years and only recent year or 2 has anyone even tried to play Samus at a higher level. Yet to touch on this level yet but I think it is humanly possible for Samus to play better. That is what I meant.

and by gimmicks or tricks I mean....I feel every character has a gimmick except for maybe Falcon.

 

[OverLord]

Ok we just mean different things for gimmicks.

With gimmick I mean something that is not reliable in the long run because it will work not more than a couple of times because of the other players adaptation.

While Marth has combos and CGs that are strongly reliable, especially on FF, Samus ain't got nothing like that, Fox and Falco too have stuff that will always work even with good DI, Samus can't do much if the opponent knows the right DI and how she works in general.


IMO the way HugS plays is the most efficient according to her limits. Playing her in a different manner would just lead to bad results. Just my opinion though.

 

[Beat!]

There's a difference between having gimmicks and relying on them. I think that's what Overlord is saying.

lol epic ninja

 

[OverLord]

There's a difference between having gimmicks and relying on them. I think that's what Overlord is saying.

lol epic ninja

Yeah, this too actually.

Like for example: Fox and Falco's D-Throw near the ledge will spike you, who the **** is falling for that since it came out..? O_o'

That's a gimmick.

 

[Bing]

I still fall for that

JOKES. Nah Gimmicks dont really work anymore unless there completely original, and even then, they only work a few times :S

 

[Metal Reeper]

There is actually....A VERY GOOD GIMMICK on Samus and Doc (Characters of that weight) That I used all the time and it works against pretty decent players (Velocity)

 

[Beat!]

Why are you so sure it's a gimmick, then? Couldn't it just be a viable option?

(it'd be cool if you told us what it is =))

 

[Metal Reeper]

Bthrow>Bair. They ALWAYS jump into it. No second jump for them. Then you just land and Fsmash them or something. You can do it on I think everyone but it really messes up floaties.

 

[Archangel]

Bthrow>Bair. They ALWAYS jump into it. No second jump for them. Then you just land and Fsmash them or something. You can do it on I think everyone but it really messes up floaties.

It's not really 100%. I've used it though but people who know about it can DI up and time a trade or sometimes a jump to either trade with you or get over your bair completely. It is a very good move to use on Doc/Samus's that don't see it coming though .

 

[Metal Reeper]

Spam Arrows don't **** on this lol. It works. Just space your ****ing bair. Just everyone try it and tell me what you find. It's not gonna work on heavier characters.

 

[Archangel]

Spam Arrows don't **** on this lol. It works. Just space your ****ing bair. Just everyone try it and tell me what you find. It's not gonna work on heavier characters.

I'm not ****ting on it I'm just saying as you go up in competition people won't always jump into it. Same way floaties won't always get Bthrow-Dair'd by Falco.

 

[Metal Reeper]

How do you know about melo....i understand what you're saying but you should try it and if it works keep doing it until it doesn't.

 

[Niko45]

yea back throw is secretly amazing

 

[Archangel]

How do you know about melo....i understand what you're saying but you should try it and if it works keep doing it until it doesn't.

lol I do. Adapting and changing is good but if the player never picks up on it...well keep doing it lol.

 

[t-iceman]

How do you know about melo....i understand what you're saying but you should try it and if it works keep doing it until it doesn't.

the thing is, once a good player sees that your going for that i can almost guarantee you will get punished for doing it twice in a row. Try doing that **** on shroomed or hugs and see what happens

 

[Archangel]

the thing is, once a good player sees that your going for that i can almost guarantee you will get punished for doing it twice in a row. Try doing that **** on shroomed or hugs and see what happens

It's likely even players a notch below those 2 will figure it out.

 

[Niko45]

It's a good mixup on all players of all levels. On better players you shouldn't assume they will jump right into your back air so just back throw them and see what they do and try to cover options.

Still really good.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Samus can certainly be played better than she is currently being played. HugS had an extremely good, tactical style but S2J and Lovage noted Duck did a few things comparably well, maybe even better than him. I'm sure other Samus players have their own talents too.

I'm also unconvinced the character is done being developed just because I don't think everything's been found out with her, or applied perfectly with her yet. That said, I'm unsure how much more growth she actually has. It's possible she has a lot more, but I don't see it myself. Her main weaknesses have to do with things that are difficult to play around because, despite her sincerest efforts, her punishment just isn't as good as the characters' above her and her defensive game is extremely slanted to effectiveness against mainly low range moves. I think priority differences can be remedied with further developing her positional game and movement, but I'm not sure how you can change her trajectories or remedy the fact that DI ruins almost all of her combo starters.

Falcon has tons of gimmicks. I would normally back this up in text form but the assertion that he lacks a good trick is so baffling to me that I cannot address it properly. Fortunately, I don't have to because I can defer this to just about any match of SS or S2J.

B-throw > Bair is great because even if you miss you're not really in that bad of a position. And if it hits, you get a free air combo. You can even just wait after the throw and do other nonsense.

B-throw also sets up combos that his other throws can't on questionable DI. And Marth is all about questionable DI.

M2K posted B-throw > Bair vs. Samus about 4 years ago but it's still a classic.

 

[Archangel]

Samus can certainly be played better than she is currently being played. HugS had an extremely good, tactical style but S2J and Lovage noted Duck did a few things comparably well, maybe even better than him. I'm sure other Samus players have their own talents too.

I'm also unconvinced the character is done being developed just because I don't think everything's been found out with her, or applied perfectly with her yet. That said, I'm unsure how much more growth she actually has. It's possible she has a lot more, but I don't see it myself. Her main weaknesses have to do with things that are difficult to play around because, despite her sincerest efforts, her punishment just isn't as good as the characters' above her and her defensive game is extremely slanted to effectiveness against mainly low range moves. I think priority differences can be remedied with further developing her positional game and movement, but I'm not sure how you can change her trajectories or remedy the fact that DI ruins almost all of her combo starters.

Falcon has tons of gimmicks. I would normally back this up in text form but the assertion that he lacks a good trick is so baffling to me that I cannot address it properly. Fortunately, I don't have to because I can defer this to just about any match of SS or S2J.

B-throw > Bair is great because even if you miss you're not really in that bad of a position. And if it hits, you get a free air combo. You can even just wait after the throw and do other nonsense.

B-throw also sets up combos that his other throws can't on questionable DI. And Marth is all about questionable DI.

M2K posted B-throw > Bair vs. Samus about 4 years ago but it's still a classic.

Thanks for the back up on the David.


I may come off as a Hugs hater but I am not. I like hugs as a person but his style reminds me of how Amsah played Jman game 3 of Pound 4. Except he ALWAYS plays gay(over defensive). According to hax this is how you are suppose to play the game but I don't agree. It's like saying in Boxing the best way to fight is landing a hit and then staying away until you run out of round. Granted it is a way to win that doesn't mean it is the only true option.

In the absence of Wes(the legendary samus) Hugs became the focal point for Samus. Truth be told most who play the game find a player who inspires them to play the characters. Hug's style doesn't really inspire anybody(hence Samus staying dead for years). He is a good player and his way of playing some match-ups may really be the best. For example I like his vs Falcon game over IHSBs. However you do not have to be 100% defensive vs the characters above her in order to barely lose against the good players. Trying to find ways to use Samus's tricks in succession can potentially give you somewhat of an edge. Mastering of the Super WD glitch and it's applications off platforms and such give samus many options that have yet to be explored or even master to the degree spacies technical shenanigans have. Fancy isn't always better but Wave shines, jump cancels, and Moonwalks are all tricks that have found consistent & useful applications in today's game. Samus is an odd character out. With the Ruleset being change I think we'll soon witness the Rise of the Mediocre characters. Meaning anyone between from C-E tier. With players like Plus and Duck around I think Samus could be showing up in top 5 of a tournament like Apex or Genesis soon.

 

[HugS™]

Thanks for the back up on the David.


I may come off as a Hugs hater but I am not. I like hugs as a person but his style reminds me of how Amsah played Jman game 3 of Pound 4. Except he ALWAYS plays gay(over defensive). According to hax this is how you are suppose to play the game but I don't agree. It's like saying in Boxing the best way to fight is landing a hit and then staying away until you run out of round. Granted it is a way to win that doesn't mean it is the only true option.

In the absence of Wes(the legendary samus) Hugs became the focal point for Samus. Truth be told most who play the game find a player who inspires them to play the characters. Hug's style doesn't really inspire anybody(hence Samus staying dead for years). He is a good player and his way of playing some match-ups may really be the best. For example I like his vs Falcon game over IHSBs. However you do not have to be 100% defensive vs the characters above her in order to barely lose against the good players. Trying to find ways to use Samus's tricks in succession can potentially give you somewhat of an edge. Mastering of the Super WD glitch and it's applications off platforms and such give samus many options that have yet to be explored or even master to the degree spacies technical shenanigans have. Fancy isn't always better but Wave shines, jump cancels, and Moonwalks are all tricks that have found consistent & useful applications in today's game. Samus is an odd character out. With the Ruleset being change I think we'll soon witness the Rise of the Mediocre characters. Meaning anyone between from C-E tier. With players like Plus and Duck around I think Samus could be showing up in top 5 of a tournament like Apex or Genesis soon.

Lol this is probably the least emotional "anti-HugS" post I've ever read. Usually people get enraged when they're trying to rip on me, or they make ridiculous conclusions about me. Your only real offense was comparing me to Amsah vs Jman. I play safe, but I'm always fighting, I never run away from people. Other than that, you were mature about what you said lol.

A long long time ago, I accepted the fact that my style was going to be polarizing. That polarizing aspect might give some credence to your statement about the lack of Samus inspiration. But in reality, I guarantee you there are plenty of Samus players who have stuck to the character based on my work. I'm not everyone's cup-of-tea, but I am to many.

I do think the character has places left to go. For one, my execution blows. Like, if I could consistently do what goes on in my head, things would be different. But that has to do with my lack of practice, something I used to do a LOT more of.

But to say I killed the Samus metagame for the past 4-5 years, that's ridiculous. You don't kill a metagame by hanging with great players and great characters for that long. I'll tell you one thing, I was super inspired by Wes back in the days because he was a Samus player who was hanging with the best. He's the SOLE reason why I didn't become a Sheik main back in 2004. Did I choose to play like him? Absolutely not, but he inspired me by winning. You can't say I demotivated the entire Samus scene by winning.

I was never flashy, and that may have turned some people off. But what I have been is smart. There are players who get inspired by that, and there are players who decide to write it off as "boring". It's not my fault that there are people who choose the latter. Yet it's weird, cuz I don't run away and I don't camp. I always fight, I just fight smart. You'll never see me involved in a match that plays out like a certain Jiggs vs Ylink match we all saw at Genesis. But people like to think that I could have been riskier.


I never just sat there and chose to not explore my character though. I know the b**** better than anyone out there. It's just that my focus has always been to explore my own intelligence within the game. Some people's thrill comes from death combos, from crowd jubilation. That's fine, I love it too, but my real pleasure comes from other things, and I focused on those other things. I chose to explore my ability to play smarter than the next guy, that's always been my edge. Many people relate to that.

I understand there's a lot of excitement now about new Samus players exploring different aspects of her game. Let's just hope that these Samuses explore their own smash intelligence too so that people like s2j and Lovage actually feel afraid of losing to them, instead of just feeling impressed by their abilities.